What is "Mind?"

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Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Dec 30, 2017 - 07:27pm PT
Give it time. Only about 1.3% of all SuperTopo posts are on this thread.
WBraun

climber
Dec 30, 2017 - 07:29pm PT
Concordance was reached millions of years ago.

The modern gross materialists have devolved into cavemen.

In old days people could travel anywhere in the Universe just by mantra vibration.

Frequency and sound vibration is one of the very powerful keys the gross materialists are completely clueless too.

The gross materialists think they advanced by lobbing bombs at each other same as throwing rocks.

St00pid idiots .....
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 30, 2017 - 07:52pm PT
... Hmmmmmmmmmmm ....

So I can safely skip reading and/or re-reading?


What song Am I listening to right now? I suppose in some sense it doesn't matter, eh.


Anyway

concordance in this sense


an alphabetical list of the words (especially the important ones) present in a text, usually with citations of the passages concerned.


For example, not to single out hB, but it is right before our collective eye

"mantra vibration" occurs just once

Context above


MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Dec 30, 2017 - 08:05pm PT
What song Am I listening to right now? I suppose in some sense it doesn't matter, eh.


It may or may not matter.

How does it bear on "What is Mind?"
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 30, 2017 - 08:17pm PT
Not to steal Herr Braun's thunder, but

mantra vibration

appears to be part (he might say all) of the topic at hand
jogill

climber
Colorado
Dec 30, 2017 - 08:19pm PT
JL: A fun read per reality being continuous or discrete...


I posted this on this thread some time ago.

http://www128.pair.com/r3d4k7/Mathematicae4.html



The Diagonal paradox is just a curiosity and example of a taxi-cab metric vs a Euclidean metric.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 31, 2017 - 02:47am PT
It will be interesting to see if future research can show how the “wet implementation” aligns with these or some other stochastic process model.

If what we've learned about evolution's ability to create exceptionally novel biological materials and applications is any guide then it's probably safe to say evolution has also developed a wet implement for just about every process with any survival utility.

allapah

climber
Dec 31, 2017 - 02:53am PT
Is it the Friday Night Posting While Drunk thread? No? Wrong seal hole have I surfaced? wrong day of the week?

Oh! It is the very What is Mind thread itself....

Well, as long as I have poked my mammalian nose into this thread I shall comment. I shall let loose with all the pent up comments I have built up as I have read this thread....

So, this thread is a bouldering problem, out beyond camp, a blank face, which, I have learned, is called the HARD PROBLEM.... all who step up are thrown off the problem by the OP who comes around, periodically to point out each time that each candidate has reified process into static, and therefore has not solved the actual problem... THUD!, into the sand they go, protect their head as they fall....

But I believe this thread has answered its own question.... the answer to WHAT IS MIND is contained within these many posts....

Not one person took up my Gregory Bateson bait.... a closer examination of Bateson's 5th Criterium for Mental Process would reveal a clear explanation to clear up so much of the confusion.... Bateson draws on Bertrand Russell to show a "hierarchy of logical types"-- a Mind will reveal hierarchy of logical typing-- like a nested series of Russian dolls-- 5.10 is a higher logical typing than 5.10c-- "chock" is a higher logical type than "#5 Stopper"--

Bateson's 6 criteria: 1. A Mind has different parts 2. the parts are different 3. the parts move together 4. the levels form feedback loops 5. The parts are analogues of each other 6. The parts organize themselves into logical types--

Tononi's PHI, which I discovered through this thread, was a great help to my understanding.... of course, the stone has consciousness, the mountains have consciousness, and the unit of measurement is PHI.... the field strength of stone's consciousness is so weak compared to, say, a mammal with a neural network, that most will dismiss it as WOO... but consciousness is permeating every pixel of the universe/multiverse....

It is the job of the scientist to reject the WOO, yes, but this is holding the progress of this thread back... it is time to accept the teleological argument that the WOO is REAL, and work backward to verify....

Here is my contribution: nervous system generates electromagnetic energy body, which surrounds the physical body of an organism. Synapse is the interface between body and "quantum foam" which is the interference pattern that generates our 3-dimensional space plus time -- brain has limited control over synapse-- synapse provides weak feedback as to the configuration of the surrounding electromagnetic universe--- climber intuition comes from sensory data feeding in through the synapses in the climber organism... basically, the synapse is the interface with the electromagnetic string theory of the universe, and the source of climber intuition, the thing that makes Michael Kennedy back off his first attempt on Wall of Shadows because the vibes are no good....

well, yes, as I've said, is this the Friday Night posting while drunk thread? well, sorry.... it's time to let in the WOO if you want to latch on to this problem....

it's a saturday in Nome and we're doing good for now....



healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 31, 2017 - 03:19am PT
Chalk another one up in the panpsychism column...
allapah

climber
Dec 31, 2017 - 03:23am PT
degree of panpyschic penetration is relative to complexity of hardware / wetware... consciousness of stone can be effectively rounded to zero, it is true...
allapah

climber
Dec 31, 2017 - 03:33am PT
if you look at all that stuff in the "Standard Model of Particle Physics", those particle/waves are all getting jammed up like cars on the freeway at rush hour, which feeds information to the brain through the synapses, which are the interface between the body and the electromagnetic backdrop of the universe-- Fritz Weissner receives information in his brain from the back-pressure of these sub-nucleic particles which leads him to a sub-conscious decision to back off of his summit attempt on K2, and survive. Did he receive resonance feedback from an alternate pathway of space-time in which he went for the summit, and got rubbed out?

Due to Heisenberg's Uncertainty, we just cannot isolate this effect using scientific method. Another way is needed....

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 31, 2017 - 03:49am PT
...through the synapses, which are the interface between the body and the electromagnetic backdrop of the universe

I would have to consider that highly speculative.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
Dec 31, 2017 - 04:13am PT
zBrown,

Anyway

concordance in this sense


an alphabetical list of the words (especially the important ones) present in a text, usually with citations of the passages concerned.

yes, that would be interesting -- a new take on this word for me -- Thanks
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
Dec 31, 2017 - 04:25am PT
MikeL,

you mention that currently, you occasionally doze off easily while meditating and are curious as to why?

Would you consider using a material remedy to keep you just conscious?

I suggest eating some portion/all of a Cutie mandarin orange say maybe 10 min before sitting.

You mention slamming java early in the morning

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/type-2-diabetes/expert-answers/blood-sugar/faq-20057941
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 31, 2017 - 05:40am PT
Says Healje: And through subconscious processing you can drive physical processes right up to the edge of consciousness / subjective mind.




This, again, is the old complexity argument. One of the outstanding papers on this subject is found here:

http://eebweb.arizona.edu/faculty/dornhaus/courses/materials/papers/Moody%20essay.pdf

Conclusion: "There is nothing at all to connect complexity conceptually with consciousness. Even though we observe the correlation of consciousness and complex brains, there is no known conceptual connection between the two. Consciousness is the property of
having experiences. What is there about complexity that would link it to that?"

Complexity is a causal argument insofar as physical complexity, while clearly a syntactic function, is believed to "produce" the syntax of subjective experience, normally attributed to a combination or processing speed, complex structure, and the magnitude of information being processed.

Challenge is, at any level of complexity, we are still dealing with syntactic functioning, the belief being that once complexity reaches a certain critical mass, so to speak, it starts edging "right up to the edge of conscious mind."

Says who, and why?

Leading neuroscientists have not only been unable to demonstrate how this is possible as a strictly physical process, they have no model per how that can or would ever happen. In fact most insist that they can't even imagine what a model would look like in terms of physical causality.

One could make a case that complexity leads to machine intelligence, re the rapidly evolving soft AI platforms. No one is arguing that. But there is nothing whatsoever - that is, no has providing any conceivable causal link - between syntactic engines (soft AI platforms) and subjectivity, and self awareness of same. People falsely imply there is a causal link between the two but whenever one digs into what that link actually is, the implication shimmers into fairly dust.

Another common distortion and logical dodge is to suggest that once complexity reaches the tipping point, we can no longer talk about things in basic or simple terms, these being trumped by complexity itself. As though objective functioning can no longer be considered as such once the tipping point is reached.

To me, complexity-leads-to-consciousness has not even reached the stage of an "argument" because no one has provided even a theoretical reason why this should or could be so, to say nothing of demonstrating the causal drivers.

My sense of it is that complexity angle (and may others) works off first assumptions per the discrete/continuous investigation.

Time to try and unpack the Lund paper...
Lollie

Social climber
I'm Lolli.
Dec 31, 2017 - 06:54am PT
What song Am I listening to right now? I suppose in some sense it doesn't matter, eh

Or just maybe, there's a message by it. ;-)


Ooops, I'm reading the wrong thread.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Dec 31, 2017 - 07:24am PT
Dingus: you mention that currently, you occasionally doze off easily while meditating and are curious as to why?

I might side with some of what Lennox posted to you: that is not what I wrote.

I don’t wonder why. What I wonder at, is what I see as I fall into unconsciousness.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
Dec 31, 2017 - 07:49am PT
mikeL,

I might side with some of what Lennox posted to you: that is not what I wrote.


Agreed, my post is not verbatim of what you wrote but your suggestion, I might side with some of what Lennox posted to you: is not a case of reading comprehension for me as Lennox suggested because of the fact that I say, you mention implies a vagueness as opposed to verbatim. Yet, you do say, For some reason, I’ve been tired lately...

Mr. Just Right, Do you have a raw ass from sitting too much and are easily irritated? You tell us how vague words & descriptions are but yet you seem to want exact quotes rather than a summary-question of what your vague words could possibly mean?

You now word the passage summary?, What I wonder at, is what I see as I fall into unconsciousness, which does not include all that rambling.

With your vagueness of words attitude, what is the purpose of even posting?

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds
WBraun

climber
Dec 31, 2017 - 07:50am PT
No one points to their head, mind, or brain when they say "I".

They point to their heart the seat of the self itself as the spiritual soul.

Proves the living entity in humans resides within the heart as the spiritual soul and that the living entity itself is ultimately is NOT mechanistic nor material.

The gross materialists are completely in poor fund of knowledge.

Their whole base is completely defective from the very start as they are like mathematicians who plugged in the wrong numbers, to begin with or used the wrong formula, to begin with.

Thus their results are always ultimately defective and incomplete ......
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 31, 2017 - 09:08am PT
Dingus McGee

I thought your statement was a concise summarization and a fair one.



They point to their heart the seat of the self itself as the spiritual soul.

Righto hB.

If some folks, pursuing science, had used the correct pointer, Ted K, may never have come up as the unabomber.



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