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WBraun
climber
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followers do not recognize the possibility that the prevailing ideas they follow could be wrong, and could turn out to be demonstrably wrong.
Could be wrong. And they are not ideas.
This is because the gross materialists commenting on this subject matter are completely clueless
and assume and project their own defects outside of themselves due to NOT seeing things "AS They Really Are" .....
The gross materialist think everything could be wrong about the anti-material because they only know a tiny little of the material.
The gross materialists are prohibited from knowing anything beyond the material due to their offensive nature against the superior energies ....
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Ed: And to a remarkable extent, Buddhism and all those other philosophies and religions share a common trait, that their followers do not recognize the possibility that the prevailing ideas they follow could be wrong, and could turn out to be demonstrably wrong
A good point that's been made in one form or another on several occasions on this thread. The mind is a trickster.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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it’s an argument that can be engaged by anyone willing to engage it
Giant brain at work here.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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PSP Link: Though you experience the feeling — and in a sense experience it more fully than usual — you experience it with “non-attachment” and so evade its grip
I had a climbing friend years ago who became a "born again" Christian and made a career as a Christian minister, and this is exactly how he described it. He would say the troubles he had were "out there" and not "in here."
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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In science, we seek out these steps and bore in on them with focus, not because we dislike them, but because we know in resolving them we learn more and make progress to understanding.
Science is methodology that seeks to get it right... all well and good, even admirable. But
that doesn't negate the devices in our lives that reconcile us to being and which in their own way are direct reflections of reality.
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WBraun
climber
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.... devices in our lives that reconcile us to being and which in their own way are direct reflections of reality.
Yes, 100% correct ....
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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the devices in our lives that reconcile us to being and which in their own way are direct reflections of reality.
As nurses we were taught not to deny reality as reported by the patient, but if they reported seeing a pink elephant in the room, we could tell them that we did not see it.
It is important to be sensitive to the beliefs, emotions and imaginative worlds of other people, and to acknowledge their reality as far as your safety and theirs allows.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2017 - 05:45pm PT
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And to a remarkable extent, Buddhism and all those other philosophies and religions share a common trait, that their followers do not recognize the possibility that the prevailing ideas they follow could be wrong, and could turn out to be demonstrably wrong.
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Can't say about Buddhism or "all those other philosophies and religions," whatever they are, but in terms of meditative practice, you have the whole thing ass backwards, Ed.
As mentioned, you take, at some level, on meditation is at bottom, these deluded folks are really trying to do science sans instruments. That is, the "stuff" they discover need only be properly handled by new-age quantifiers who can DEMONSTRATE the errors of the navel gazers, "who only think they are (fill in the blank)..."
The fact that the practice leads away from the world of scientific inquiry, away from observable or measurable things, is a facile fact to those in the know, but a bone of contention for those looking at it all through the lens of stuff.
The whole idea that "all of us dupe followers" are being led by some old farts "prevailing ideas" is itself such a daffy nothing that it's amazing more don't call this out. As though "ideas" are the driver.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Another way of understanding Buddhist principles.
It isn't science but it isn't dogma either.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Hurrah, Jan!
Delicate and meaningful.
Well, maybe strike the Jan, now that I see an NYT attribution
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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As mentioned, you take, at some level, on meditation is at bottom, these deluded folks are really trying to do science sans instruments.
No, I've never said this, and like MH2 was taught, I don't question your experience, your witness is what it is.
But that doesn't negate the devices in our lives that reconcile us to being and which in their own way are direct reflections of reality.
Perhaps you think I have tried to "negate those devices," but I haven't said that either nor tried to in any post I've made.
As I have said constantly through all these many threads and posts, science is about taking the assumption that everything that exists can be explained in physical terms to it's absolute limit with no wavering.
It is not depauperate of any of the beauty that comes of living, the celebration of all our reconciliations of being.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Paul: . . . the devices in our lives that reconcile us to being and which in their own way are direct reflections of reality.
This may need a bit more consideration before acceptance.
Perhaps I’m misunderstanding what was meant or pointed at, but I would suggest that any “reflection” is not reality without a veil. More positively stated, reflections are not real.
Therein might lie a rubric. All representations are shadows of what cannot be defined or articulated.
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WBraun
climber
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science is about taking the assumption that everything that exists can be explained in physical terms to it's absolute limit with no wavering.
Sound vibrations of words are not all physical.
There are many words when vibrated that are NOT gross physical even though you think you hear them as such.
The physical explanations of these words will come and end far short of their unlimited infinite understandings according to time and circumstance.
These certain vibrated words are transcendental to the material plane.
The gross materialists will hear them as physical but these words will still act on the spiritual platform just as medicine will act without the users understanding.
The reflection of the person in the mirror is NOT the real person.
One can not grasp a hold of that reflection to manipulate it independent of the original real self ......
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jill said" PSP Link: Though you experience the feeling — and in a sense experience it more fully than usual — you experience it with “non-attachment” and so evade its grip
I had a climbing friend years ago who became a "born again" Christian and made a career as a Christian minister, and this is exactly how he described it. He would say the troubles he had were "out there" and not "in here."
I have thought for a while now there are parallels between the born again experience and "big" meditation experiences. Just different interpretations of the experience.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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The fact that the practice leads away from the world of scientific inquiry, away from observable or measurable things...
Well, at least we finally have that definitively out of the way. And I'd add that, past a certain point, away from [subjectively] experienceable things as well.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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"I have thought for a while now there are parallels between the born again experience and "big" meditation experiences. Just different interpretations of the experience."
How could they not be when we all share the same physiology based on a long evolutionary history?
The experiences are similar, it's their interpretations that are so drastically different.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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science is about taking the assumption that everything that exists can be explained in physical terms to its absolute limit with no wavering.
Even if this assumption was false, wouldn't it still be possible (even fruitful, interesting, rewarding, meaningful, useful, or just plain fun) to do science?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 7, 2017 - 05:51am PT
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And to a remarkable extent, Buddhism and all those other philosophies and religions share a common trait, that their followers do not recognize the possibility that the prevailing ideas they follow could be wrong, and could turn out to be demonstrably wrong.
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For starters, going on the belief that "Buddhism and all those other philosophies" are driven by "ideas" is not correct in my experience. That's a doctrine take on what's going on, when in fact, the subjective adventures start when "ideas" are seen for what they are.
What Ed is really driving at is the search for fundamentals by way of investigating physical processes. It can be no wonder why he should posit mind in terms or mechanical or physical output because at the level of the machine, one need not recruit "magic" to explain what you see and measure.
Ed's takeaway is that when people just look at internal stuff, they are deluded into "thinking" that there is more involved than physical processes, when in fact he can demonstrate that all there is is physical processes. We are deluded into believing otherwise. Getting back to Dennett, we only "think" there is more.
Problem here is that to get the whole take on mind you have to look at both objective and subjective to get the full picture. Any viable internal adventure does both, because. And Ed can demonstrate how this is so.
Maybe start with demonstrating how matter becomes conscious by way of a mechanism. If you're not up for that (the Hard Problem), owing to a lack of data, then provide a theoretical model or theory of HOW anything whatsoever relating to mechanical processing, processing speed, and complexity, is in any way related to awareness, without awareness not being postulated at your starting point. At some point in the process you will be taking a magical step. Try it and you'll se.
Also, my bet is that Ed sees not difference between mechanical registration and conscious process. That is, the processes that go on in a moon probe are fundamentally the same as those that go on during a conscious creative process. That is, all of the subjective world is really physical output, we "only think" that it is otherwise.
In this regard, Ed is behavioralist. Input, processing, output.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Even if this assumption was false, wouldn't it still be possible (even fruitful, interesting, rewarding, meaningful, useful, or just plain fun) to do science?
Yes, and the same could be said of math even if one has no idea of or assumptions about its foundations.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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he can demonstrate that all there is is physical processes
Largo continues to not understand Ed. How did Largo get from "an assumption that" to "a demonstration of?"
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