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WBraun
climber
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Oct 30, 2017 - 08:09pm PT
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Modern material science can't answer any questions completely to begin with, since all material science is temporary and incomplete to begin with.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Oct 30, 2017 - 08:59pm PT
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I can’t say how much one comes to grips with “What This Is” when one drops tasks, agendas, things to do, places to be, etc. For one thing (in my experience anyway), intimacy (understanding, communication, care with others) skyrockets. It’s as though someone took away veils from seeing
First year of retirement,eh? It's a liberating time of life.
How's the art coming along? That mask was very impressive.
;>)
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Oct 30, 2017 - 10:18pm PT
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"And its no wonder science falls so far short of their expectations given science typically produces more questions than it answers.
In other words, answers from science kind of suck as dogma for those in need of it."
I think that’s too easy of an answer.
Most modern people are not stuck in dogma, but they do realize that science can’t answer their deepest questions about the meaning and purpose of life, nor the best way to live. A lot of religion seems to be failing in that regard as well. What’s left for many are inspirational examples of other human beings. People find Einstein interesting, but for deeper meaning in their lives they’re more inclined to people like Mother Theresa or the Dalai Lama.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 31, 2017 - 12:27am PT
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Most modern people are not stuck in dogma, but they do realize that science can’t answer their deepest questions about the meaning and purpose of life, nor the best way to live.
Science is definitely not about answering those questions. And to be honest, I personally don't find them terribly relevant or meaningful, and I certainly don't look externally for how best to live.
Also, I believe the deepest searches for answers for most folks are driven by fear of the unknown for which we desperately want answers and will generally believe and accept almost any answer if it's presented in the right social context. Certainly our religions throughout history bear that observation out.
I think that's the case because there's almost nothing less acceptable to human beings than unanswered question. For me the answer lies in simply learning to acknowledge, accept and even like all the unanswered questions and the fact many will likely never be answered.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Oct 31, 2017 - 12:52am PT
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I am amazed at the number of people on this thread to claim not to be interested in the meaning and purpose of life. It seems like such a waste of human consciousness. I also wonder about the long term societal impact of everyone deciding for themselves the best way to live.
I'm sure there are thoughtful people who've had the advantages of solid family values and a good education, and no major economic worries who can do this (just about everybody on this thread), but what about the general population?
It seems to me the veneer of civilization grows ever thinner. Some people think that the extreme partisanship of current politics indicates that people have left their religious dogma behind and now engage in similar political dogma. If so, I can't think that is any improvement. At least religious dogma taught some universal ethics.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Oct 31, 2017 - 04:26am PT
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Jan,
At least religious dogma taughtsome universal ethics
Superficially, yes. But back then each group had their neighborhoods and heard mostly local news. the Lutherans hated the Catholics while those of Islam were thought of as camel jocks living in a far away dessert. We likely evolved to protect the food of kin and group.
The Tv, cell phone and internet have made the irrelevant seem pertinent to those that cannot recognize their boundaries.
Mihaly Csik... in Flow [an old standby] says that stabler people are those that can live at low/no stress with ambiguities.
Will ambiguities ever disappear? What if I would become super super enlightened to where I felt the infinitesimal lightness of being while in a subjective state wrestling with 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th Jhanas? Back at ST I would still be dealing with the ambiguities of Largo. We will always hear confused folks telling their tales with certainty.
Wouldn't our universal ethics be better group adjusted if we taught boundary recognition and relevancy? A simple calculus of BVP's with gradients at the boundaries? But alas, doing this may be just as meaningless as doing meditation?
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Oct 31, 2017 - 08:36am PT
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Brain Imaging Technology Uses Machine Learning to Identify Suicidal Thoughts
In a second set of experiments, the researchers used a similar approach to see if the machine learning system could distinguish between patients who had made a previous suicide attempt and those who had just thought about it. The program was able to identify those who had previously tried to take their own lives with 94 percent accuracy.
I remember when a discriminant function for male vs female was derived based solely on driver's license number. I think it was with greater than 94% accuracy.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 31, 2017 - 08:44am PT
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Jan said:
I am amazed at the number of people on this thread to claim not to be interested in the meaning and purpose of life.
It seems like such a waste of human consciousness.
This IS actually normal for this day and age and will even further deteriorate in the future due to the heavy influence of materialism.
People will become more and more dynamically sterile in their minds and brainwashed robotic (zombies).
As the poster below has just demonstrated with his reply ......
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 31, 2017 - 08:46am PT
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I am amazed at the number of people on this thread to claim not to be interested in the meaning and purpose of life.
Again, to what specific end and relevancy? Life happens. I don't see where there is a driving need for any more meaning and purpose beyond that simple statement of fact. For that matter, what makes you think / feel there is any meaning or purpose to life?
It seems like such a waste of human consciousness.
Hmm, one could just as easily argue pondering such questions is a waste of human consciousness.
I also wonder about the long term societal impact of everyone deciding for themselves the best way to live.
You keep bringing up this "best way to live" concern - again, I guess I just fail to see the relevancy of "the meaning and purpose of life" to figuring that out how best to live.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Oct 31, 2017 - 11:21am PT
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I am amazed at the number of people on this thread to claim not to be interested in the meaning and purpose of life.
One?
That is an amazing number.
But
Boys are fixed on numbers, how many and what kind
from
A Wanderer I'll Stay
Pharis and Jason Romero
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Oct 31, 2017 - 11:25am PT
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I don't see where there is a driving need for any more meaning and purpose beyond that simple statement of fact.
With all due respect I'll have to call bullshit on that one.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 31, 2017 - 12:19pm PT
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With all due respect I'll have to call bullshit on that one.
Well, please do enlighten me then. And do you honestly expect any more traction on the answers to those two questions than Largo trying to achieve that fifth-Jhāna look behind the curtain of ultimate no-thingness?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Oct 31, 2017 - 01:44pm PT
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Maybe it's about the journey, not the goal ?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 31, 2017 - 01:56pm PT
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If that's the case then do you really need a goal for that kind of journey? And at what point does that kind of unattainable goal become the intellectual or spiritual equivalent of the rabbit at the dog track?
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Oct 31, 2017 - 02:50pm PT
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DMT,
you are on a personal choice track with the idea that the meaning of life is made not something we should know or follow someone's declaration.
the book Flow has chapter title The Making of Meaning see Chap 10.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 31, 2017 - 03:25pm PT
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I think Dingus is on it. Life is what it is and it's entirely in your hands - make the most of it you while you can.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Oct 31, 2017 - 03:46pm PT
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Well, please do enlighten me then.
I don't think it's possible to be human and not be , at one time or another, consumed with thoughts and speculations, resolute convictions even, about what could be called the purpose and meaning of life : the underlying "reason for being". And even if those questions or speculations ultimately lead one to a firm conviction that absolutely there is no reason for being, nevertheless the innate pursuit of meaning and purpose has ironically led one to such a nihilistic posture.
Consider the all-consuming drive to remain alive exhibited by most living systems. It could be said that such an overriding drive operates much like a meaning and purpose, despite the fact such manifold directives seem to strictly reside in the genetic machinery of life. Human beings, in a native state especially, cannot but help be aware of such characteristics of life; it seems to exert a sort of gravitational, tidal push-and-pull on the human mind, and heart. Perhaps this is where our intrinsic need for what we think of as both the existential and metaphysical preoccupations encountered in life actually resides.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Oct 31, 2017 - 05:04pm PT
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Dingus: Did you mean to say ...appears..?
I appeared to. (Yes.)
Healyje: In other words, answers from science kind of suck as dogma for those in need it.
I’d suggest that interpretation is a projection. I’m not in agreement with “suck,” “dogma,” or “need it.” But, everyone is entitled to their interpretations. We might say that interpretations make up one’s world.
Jgill: First year of retirement, eh?
YES!
I gotta say, I can’t imagine how I ever found time for work before in my life. The list of things that I could be doing is almost endless. Right now I’m learning how to weld, trimming trees to an aesthetic that pours out of me (!), and reading up on where alchemy meets Jungian psychology. (Many thanks to Ed for that last impetus.) I’m also about to have the first invited meeting among practicing “artists” in my community to talk about artistic vision.” God, I hope I live long enough to see how things turn out on some of the things I’m involved in.
As for the art, I’m learning welding so that I can make an abstract metal tree in my front courtyard. (Anyone ever see any of Deborah Butterfield’s horse sculptures??? Please look at Google images of “deborah butterfield horses images.”) That’s what I want to do abstractly for a tree. When I try to think about how I'd do it consciously, I get nowhere. I'm at a loss. But in my morning sittings, ideas arise like waves of emotion. I let them go as much as I can, but I remember them. The unconscious mind is a complete wonder. It seems to have so much energy and creativity. It humbles my conscious mind.
Right now it’s wonderful weather here in Southern Arizona. To die for, as it were.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 31, 2017 - 05:14pm PT
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I don't think it's possible to be human and not be , at one time or another, consumed with thoughts and speculations, resolute convictions even, about what could be called the purpose and meaning of life : the underlying "reason for being".
Don't know, never once been consumed by either question, but then I have some background in microbiology and I tend to scale all such questions up and down - i.e. what's the meaning and purpose of the life of Syphilis? Does it need one? Do I need an answer around the purpose and meaning of its life? And scaling up all the way back up to humans I personally find no more relevancy in those questions for myself than for virii or bacteria. Again, life just is. I'm on it and in need of no further purpose or meaning.
And even if those questions or speculations ultimately lead one to a firm conviction that absolutely there is no reason for being, nevertheless the innate pursuit of meaning and purpose has ironically led one to such a nihilistic posture.
I personally consider life a breathtaking empty canvas. Nihilistic? Sure, but without the morality and value nonsense.
Consider the all-consuming drive to remain alive exhibited by most living systems. It could be said that such an overriding drive operates much like a meaning and purpose, despite the fact such manifold directives seem to strictly reside in the genetic machinery of life.
Hmm, again with my background I'm disinclined to make the leap from parasympathetic responses and biological imperatives to something more 'meaningful'.
Human beings, in a native state especially, cannot but help be aware of such characteristics of life; it seems to exert a sort of gravitational, tidal push-and-pull on the human mind, and heart. Perhaps this is where our intrinsic need for what we think of as both the existential and metaphysical preoccupations encountered in life actually resides.
Existential and metaphysical preoccupations aside, I think we possess great imaginations and creativity which work for us in hope and against us in fear.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 31, 2017 - 06:28pm PT
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As for the art, I’m learning welding so that I can make an abstract metal tree in my front courtyard. (Anyone ever see any of Deborah Butterfield’s horse sculptures??? Please look at Google images of “deborah butterfield horses images.”) That’s what I want to do abstractly for a tree. When I try to think about how I'd do it consciously, I get nowhere. I'm at a loss. But in my morning sittings, ideas arise like waves of emotion. I let them go as much as I can, but I remember them. The unconscious mind is a complete wonder. It seems to have so much energy and creativity. It humbles my conscious mind.
you might look at Karl Blossfeldt's work for some inspiration too... (Steve Grossman turned me on to it)
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