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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Mike, the ST e-mail service malfunctions. I haven't received anything. Go here and down to the bottom of the first page for my e-mail address.
http://www.johngill.net
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Done.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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So... what IS mind, anyway?
Ha! Apparently nobody really knows, but mind's implications leave many certain that they know what it isn't.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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So... what IS mind, anyway?
A thingamy that has the ability to learn about the world around it.
Do babies have a mind to begin with? Or does it develop as they learn?
When in their young development do humans become aware of their mortality?
Could a machine learn enough about the world around it to foresee its own eventual destruction, and what conditions would be necessary for it to make attempts to avoid its own end?
Could a machine learn to fear death, or would that need to be programmed into it?
Yesterday I heard a good discussion about WHAT IS A WORD? It turns out to be impossible to pin down. So let's not get too worried about, "What is 'Mind'?"
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2016 - 04:09pm PT
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So let's not get too worried about, "What is 'Mind'?"
Are the scientists at CERNE "worried" about finding the graviton, and quantifying same?
Is the value or urgency of any investigation tied to our anxiety about it?
What is the difference between worry and natural interest?
Perhaps worry is not the right word to evaluate what many people are investigating in just as many ways. No doubt some are worried. Others, not so much. Neither has much to do with the investigation, but speaks volumes about the investigator.
Easy does it, is IME the operative term when tackling unknowns.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Are the scientists at CERNE "worried" about finding the graviton, and quantifying same?
Good to see you worried about nothing.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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And that nothing provokes worries.
;>)
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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So here's Jordan Peterson weaving together (a) the mental life and (b) brain function (as a control system) in story form and myth...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHmklvx9oJ4
These students will conceive the world and themselves a bit differently, I think, than their ancestors.
...
re: imagination, simulation and thinking
"The reason we think is so that we can let our thoughts die instead of us." -Karl Popper
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Are the scientists at CERNE "worried" about finding the graviton, and quantifying same
I don't think so... we're not likely to find a graviton at CERN...
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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The Djinn that awaits lost souls. Not all heavenly creatures are lovely to gaze upon. It is one of the angels that balances on the head of a pin, scaled up 25,000X. Beware.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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And Christmas-y, in a lost soul kind of way.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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jgill, your djinn reminds me of the Hindu goddess Kali. She herself is black, probably denoting her origins with the most ancient tribal and Dravidian people of India, but she is surrounded by red, including severed heads and limbs and is dancing on her husband's prostrate body, a definite no no in a society where feet are considered dirty, and women wash their husband's feet and sip some of the foot water at the wedding, to symbolize their subservience. Many westerners recoil from the symbolism, never noticing that she is surrounded by a halo of green which ameliorates the rest. Her esoteric symbolism is that she is dancing on convention (her husband) and severing all the obstacles to internal development, in a way reminiscent of the quote of Jesus, "if your eye offends you, pluck it out". If you call on her, she will be a powerful advocate to help you cast out those unlovely parts of yourself. More than that, she is the original tough love who is prayed to in difficult cases like drug addiction.
Thus, I think your Djinn, who looks a lot like some science fiction space dweller, is similar. He is surrounded by red, the color of the first chakra symbolizing primordial energy as well as lust and the desire for self continuation through procreation. In his center however, he is purest green which is the color of the wide open heart chakra. This is a well intentioned tough love djinn and perhaps a universal archetype.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Mh2, thanks for the very interesting broadcast. I have read a couple of books by Newburg. I like the way he keeps expanding his research.
I was a little surprised that he thinks dopamine is the primary chemical involved. In thinking it over, however, I believe that there are other states involving other brain chemicals. I believe that the raising of the kundalini, chi, ki, baptism of the Holy Spirit etc. is rather a function of the serotonin circuit and that people spontaneously from time to time, experience bursts of serotonin after meditating or doing other spiritual practices for a while.
Anyway, this is definitely the direction I am interested in going, so many thanks.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Dopamine and serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine or 5-HT) are neurotransmitters with important, conserved roles in the vertebrate nervous system. Dopamine is important in neuronal circuitry that controls reward and in brain regions that regulate movement (1). Assigning a specific functional role to 5-HT has proven more difficult because electrophysiological recordings of 5-HT neurons reveal unchanged firing in response to most stimuli (2). Competing roles have been suggested for dopamine and 5-HT in reward circuitry, with dopamine signals predicting positive stimuli and 5-HT signals predicting negative consequences (3, 4). Biochemically, their regulation is quite similar, with similar proteins regulating synthesis, storage, release, uptake, and metabolism. To compare functional dopamine and 5-HT regulation in the brain, methods have been developed to monitor dynamic changes in their concentrations in the extracellular space.
http://www.pnas.org/content/109/29/11510.full
In the spiritual or disciplinary activities Jan listed above both chemicals are no doubt involved. However the reward circuitry for dopamine is much more extensive and inclusive. In fact as the study cited above suggests there may even be antagonistic components to the complex interrelationship between the two.
Those epiphanous spiritual activities involving nominally reinforced and acute euphoric states of mind are the result of dopamine activity, whereas serotonin, which seems to have more of a regulatory function, is probably more highly involved in meditative disciplines, such as breath counting being the foremost fundamental example that comes to mind.( this point is my own and not a result of the cited study)
BTW dopamine is not only produced in the brain ( frontal lobe regions) but is also manufactured in the eye/retina and its production there is facilitated by exposure to full spectrum sunlight; and intimately involved in chronobiological, circadian functions. Exposure to blue light from artificial lighting, phones,and computer screens adversely effects and inhibits both melatonin and dopamine production in the eye.
Competing roles have been suggested for dopamine and 5-HT in reward circuitry, with dopamine signals predicting positive stimuli and 5-HT signals predicting negative consequences
This "competing" relationship might be the neurochemical basis for such charismatic examples, often seen in feral Pentecostal meetings, for instance, in which uncontrolled and extreme jubilant euphoria is often immediately followed ,or accompanied by , the most lugubrious weeping and confessions of personal sins and exaggerated reproachments .
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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I believe that there are other states involving other brain chemicals.
For sure.
While interesting, most of the CBC discussion was outside my understanding. I was fascinated by the suggestion of ways in which the adult identity and sense of self might undergo substantial change.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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As necessary as chemistry and circuitry are to experience, even religious ecstasy, those chemicals and that circuitry are not (as in not) the experience. Neither are they the reflective observation and realization of that experience and they're certainly not the recollection through memory of that experience.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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As necessary as chemistry and circuitry are to experience, even religious ecstasy, those chemicals and that circuitry are not (as in not) the experience.
But they are your certainty of the above?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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But they are your certainty of the above?
No. Chemistry and structure are just that: dopamine does not experience, dopamine may affect experience it is even necessary to some experience but in and of itself it is not experience, unless you hold to the notions of panpsychism.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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"that circuitry are not (as in not) the experience" -Paul
and what courses and studies and degrees do you have in biological engineering, neurosystems engineering, etc., Paul?
lol
That circuitry is the basis of brain as a perception generator. No brain circuitry, no brain perception (yes, incl perception of flashes of light from retinal excitation by a finger in the dark, notwithstanding Largo's silly dismissiveness). Now we might argue I suppose whether the basis is 99% or 100% - esp taking into acct interaction with the system's environs - but it is the basis.
That this apparently conflicts with your worldview is your problem.
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