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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jan 15, 2018 - 05:57pm PT
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I'm thinking that patterns are behind awareness. Just a hunch.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 15, 2018 - 06:07pm PT
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You are like the guy who knows absolutely nothing about trucks with air brakes and wonders why it won't move even though the engines running.
The truck driver says you need to release the air brakes.
But you completely ignore him and guess that if you set the radio to station 102.8 FM the truck will move.
That's how bad you are guessing, absolutely horrible ......
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jan 15, 2018 - 06:23pm PT
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I am just guessing... that's for sure. In fact, I am speculating. Horrible is pretty harsh.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 15, 2018 - 07:14pm PT
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disease of the spirit?
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jan 15, 2018 - 07:52pm PT
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as in Dis ease
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Jan 15, 2018 - 08:13pm PT
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In my opinion the topics we discuss are far too general, whereas being more specific and citing examples might be more productive. Regarding emergence, by specifying particular areas of investigation, then possibly correlating results, a broader understanding could be reached. Or maybe not. In any event, the philosophical approaches as described in the Stanford link are not very satisfying.
As a retired math guy who likes to program I feel most comfortable with weak emergence as described in the Wiki page:
"Weak emergence describes new properties arising in systems as a result of the interactions at an elemental level. However, it is stipulated that the properties can be determined by observing or simulating the system, and not by any process of a priori analysis."
The Talk page for this topic is also quite interesting.
Although the larger outlines of this figure might be amenable to a priori analysis, it is doubtful the more detailed intricacies are. This is not a fractal, but it does arise as a more complex form of iteration of mathematical formulae. The 3-D appearance is part of the unexpected results.
How far might computer simulation go?
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 15, 2018 - 08:50pm PT
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What philosophical remedy for humanity has resulted in freedom from a disease?
There is absolutely zero freedom for humanity from disease in the material world.
The material world IS the disease itself.
The living entity has nothing to do with the material world, since it is non-material, to begin with .....
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Jan 15, 2018 - 09:20pm PT
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The only thing that makes the difference in the way you feel right now is the thought that you are thinking right now. It doesn’t matter how much money you’ve got; there are joyful people with no money, and there are unhappy people with lots of money. How you feel is about how you are allowing the Source that is You to flow. So when we talk about the Art of Allowing, we’re talking about the art of living; about the art of thriving; about the art of clarity. We’re talking about the art of being who you really are.
Excerpted from Ashland, OR on 7/20/02
Our Love
Esther (Abraham and Jerry)
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Jan 16, 2018 - 01:37pm PT
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Well, I was playing with an integral representation of an infinite product I devised, and look what popped up:
Does this angry face remind you of anyone on these threads?
Or on the forum?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 16, 2018 - 03:11pm PT
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Does this remind you of anyone on these threads?
Perhaps that anonymous coward who's entirely not credible because he/it has presented no evidence he/it actually climbs?
lol
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eeyonkee, it's been awhile. Any chance you're now more a reconcilist when it comes to free will? Having had a week or so to sleep on it? :)
Remember, all it takes to becoming a reconcilist is (1) recognizing that the answer to the "free from what?" question changes as one moves from one area, frame, field or discipline (e.g., physics) to another (e.g., law, legal); and (2) "reconciling" these different answers from a higher, more encompassing, meta perspective.
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In a courtroom what do the lawyers call a will that was free from any identifiable pathology? If not a free will?
In a courtroom what do the lawyers call a will that was free from the coercive influence of any outside agent? If not a free will?
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Jan 16, 2018 - 03:51pm PT
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^^^ Nope. Think of someone who likes to ridicule paunchy scientists.
;>)
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jan 16, 2018 - 05:22pm PT
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HFCS wrote
Remember, all it takes to becoming a reconcilist is (1) recognizing that the answer to the "free from what?" question changes as one moves from one area, frame, field or discipline (e.g., physics) to another (e.g., law, legal); and (2) "reconciling" these different answers from a higher, more encompassing, meta perspective.
In a courtroom what do the lawyers call a will that was free from any identifiable pathology? If not a free will?
In a courtroom what do the lawyers call a will that was free from the coercive influence of any outside agent? If not a free will?
Free from your parents, your teachers, your childhood friends, where you grew up, in what time in history that you live, not to mention your genetic makeup. I have a very narrow definition of free will. I mean it in the sense that, just before the decision is required, that you can somehow do something about it that is other than determined by all of the preceding events and mental states.
I see the higher levels that you speak of as societal levels (of emergence). Yes, we need to enforce laws against individuals for the benefit of society. I'm just not going to blame the individual for his or her personal history and genetic makeup. That court of law can only judge based on some fluid standards against a population exhibiting normal distributions for almost every type of behavior that you can think of.
I'm re-reading Steven Pinker's How the Mind Works again. Sheesh, what a thinker and polymath. I gotta say, I feel like Paul Simon going against Kareem Abdul Jabbar in a one-on-one basketball game when betting against Pinker on the free will problem, but that's how I roll.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 16, 2018 - 05:36pm PT
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eeyonkee, based on your last post, I think you're almost to the reconcilist stance. lol
Read the Shermer piece. See if you don't see the parallelism between morality (y/n?) and free will (y/n?).
The category is not physics, the category is the social game!
The reconcilist says: It's not one category or the other. It is both. Both! Each category gives a different answer. Hence the contradiction but also the opportunity to reconcile the contradiction!
Pinker's book? That's got to be 30 hours! This guy: Anil Seth (neuroscientist, AI researcher, etc) was just on Harris last week. Only three hours. They covered a lot! Including the predictive brain and "controlled hallucinations".
Here he is at TED where he also discusses "controlled hallucination." I think it's got merit.
https://www.ted.com/talks/anil_seth_how_your_brain_hallucinates_your_conscious_reality
I'm just not going to blame the individual for his or her personal history and genetic makeup.
Yes, neither am I. Not from the physicalist level/frame.
But people will at the level of the social game (incl law), even if they have reconciled that at base we're all autobes (automata). Remember a couple weeks ago Moose paid his ticket even though we all agree as an autobe (autobic creature) his behavior that day was fated.
That court of law can only judge based on some fluid standards against a population exhibiting normal distributions for almost every type of behavior that you can think of.
Yes.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 16, 2018 - 05:58pm PT
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In a courtroom what do the lawyers call a will that was free from the coercive influence of any outside agent? If not a free will?
I wish you'd take a stab at this question.
If you're choosing (lol) to limit yourself to that narrow physicalist definition of free will (and thus denying it), then what term or terms (what language) will you use to indicate you signed the contract freely (assuming this was in fact the case) without coercion from any outside agent?
After all, it's got to be communicated somehow. If not via "free will" then via what?
I really think if you were in a court before a judge (with me standing next to you, lol) you'd have no problem affirming that you signed the contract under your own free will. And we, all parties present, would all grok the meaning. That's what counts.
Change the category, change the meaning.
A reconcilist is willing and able to do this. He sees it all, in particular the nuanced thinking at each categorical level, from a higher meta perspective.
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Last week, we were on the cusp of discussing (1) choosing, the power to choose, (2) branching, the power to branch (amongst options, an options list) as a stepping stone to can-do power (competence) as an agent as means to a fuller accounting of free will when we got side-tracked by a discussion of emergence.
As a reconcilist, also as a biological determinist, I definitely accept the claim that we anthropes - though we are automata - have the power the choose (among options). It's how we are evolved, designed. It's what sets us apart from other creatures with smaller brains and less can-do power.
From a past post or two, I think you said you also deny power to choose. So you deny free will, period; and you deny power to choose, period. You do not see how these things might exist at other categorical levels or insofar as you do, they are just not legitimate considerations. Do I have that right?
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I've always disagreed with Harris on his consideration of the zombie, which is to say, a human with all the competence of a human but without consciousness in particular sentience. It was nice to hear these guys discuss the zombie notion and it was nice to discover Anil Seth not only superbly articulate but also favor exactly my position/stance on the subject.
Also, Harris is way more sanguine than I about AI acquiring consciousness or sentience. My thinking is much more in-line with Anil's - that sentience has less to do with intelligence and way more to do with us being biological creatures evolved over millions of generations.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jan 16, 2018 - 06:25pm PT
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So, let me give you an example of what I am thinking. I believe that Fox News has been the single most polarizing entity in our politics over the last several years. Fox News has poisoned people's minds by constantly disseminating highly biased and often false information. The people watching can't help but imprint these memes, I'm convinced of that. The only thing they can do is quit watching and most of them don't. I've seen it in my own brothers.
I would say that the ability of Fox News to have the effect that it does over such a large proportion of Americans speaks both to the fluidity of the morals and beliefs in society, and how constant broadcasting of memes, whether true or not, can affect your beliefs and decisions.
I see this as entirely consistent with hard determinism. In general, your most recent and powerful memories are going to have an outsized effect on your future behavior and beliefs.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 16, 2018 - 06:34pm PT
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So I can agree with all that.
But I don't see how - outside the physicalist determinist frame - any of that precludes either (a) power to choose or (b) other categorical forms of free will.
It must be my reconcilist bias. :)
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"Fall in love with some activity, and do it! Nobody ever figures out what life is all about, and it doesn't matter." - Feynman
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jan 16, 2018 - 07:21pm PT
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Does this remind you of anyone on these threads?
I see the face as being between owl and frog.
The previous image was elegant.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jan 16, 2018 - 09:18pm PT
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One might ask,
what happens when light does not interact with matter
or
what the subordinate action is when light interacts with matter
or
why the dominant action is not a shaking from side to side.
When light interacts with matter, the dominant action is often a “shaking” up and down of electrons in response to the electric field. This interaction is typically 10,000 times larger than the “swirling” action from a light wave’s magnetic field. The case is different in metamaterials, which contain small components like metal rings that are often tailored to have an enhanced response to magnetic fields. Thanks to this sensitivity, light traveling through a metamaterial can bend in unusual ways, making feasible such devices as super-lenses and invisibility cloaks.
Previously, researchers could measure the magnetic interaction between light and some form of matter only by subtracting the dominant electric interaction from the total effect of the light. Now two experimental groups have managed to directly isolate the magnetic field effect. They worked with a type of 2-dimensional device called a photonic crystal microcavity. The crystal is fabricated by perforating a thin layer of semiconductor with a pattern of tiny holes, like a micron-sized punch card. The cavity is made by leaving a small region “un-punched” and letting the surrounding lattice of holes act like mirrored walls that keep infrared light bouncing around in the cavity as standing waves.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 16, 2018 - 10:24pm PT
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It used to be the "Mind" thread.
It's now morphed into the "mental speculator" thread.
It's now about people who only write about the tiny bubbles surfacing from their dualistic materially infected minds .....
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