oh, brave new world...(OT)

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bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 27, 2011 - 05:16pm PT
the alternate title of this thread: what liberalism hath wrought


in "the tempest", miranda exclaims, "oh, brave new world that has such creatures in't"; she is excited by the several men who have appeared, miraculously, on the island, the only men (besides her father and caliban) that she has ever seen

of course, her father and the audience know these men to be corrupt--calibans without the external ugliness; thus, prompting prospero's response: "'tis new to you"


orwell receives due credit for the prescience of "1984", but i think huxley was even more insightful about where humanity was headed...behold:




‘Sex box’ to get new name as parents revolt

Officials in Basel have agreed to rename the “sex box” after receiving some 3,000 letters of protest from parents angered by the controversial trove of wooden penises and fabric vaginas set to be used in a new sex education programme for playschool and primary school kids.

Christoph Eymann, Basel education minister and member of the liberal democrat party (LDP), responded to parent’s protests in an interview with SonntagsBlick.

“It was no doubt stupid to call it a ’sex box’ – we will change that. But we will stick to our goal: to get across to children that sexuality is something natural. Without forcing anything upon them or taking anything away from their parents,“ he said.

Many parents say they do not understand why sex education needs to be taught to children as young as four.

“There are usually two reasons why sexuality becomes a topic in kindergarten: either the teacher is pregnant or one of the children will soon get a new sister or brother. In such cases, it is correct that the teacher can respond”, Eymann told SonntagsBlick.

Eymann said he understood that one line in the programme, “touching can be enjoyed heartily”, could be misconstrued, but insisted: “It is not about ‘touch me, feel me’. We want to tell the children that there is contact that they may find pleasurable, but some that they should say ’no’ to. Kids can unfortunately can become victims of sexual violence already at playschool age.“

Eymann said he would prefer if sex education was taught to children at home but argued that education officials needed to respond to the realities of today.

“We currently live in an oversexualised society. There is uncontrolled distribution of pornographic material that can reach young children. Some primary school children know the TV schedule until 2am. We would like to offer these children firm support, which is often not available in the family. The box is only an aid. I trust the teachers to approach the material with care.”

Despite this, Eymann said he takes critics’ arguments seriously, and has ordered the contents of the box to be examined after finding the cover of previous teaching material tasteless.

Some parents have called for their children to be exempted from sex education. Eymann says he is strictly against exemptions, although he is aware this will not make him many friends:

“Primary school may be the only big audience that our society has. The shared values that it teaches are very important. I would definitely like to keep this. The explanatory lesson can be portrayed in a way that doesn’t offend“, he said.

Critics of public school sex education have been warning of this for decades: Once you start down the slippery slope of teaching kids about the mechanics of sex, it will invariably (in some school districts at least) eventually lead to advocacy for sex. Combine that with the relentless drive to introduce sex ed at lower and lower grades, and you end up with what’s happening in Switzerland: Telling four-year-olds how pleasurable sex is and leading them in classroom activities that are tantamount to public masturbation:

‘Sex box’ for Swiss kindergarteners has genitalia toys: will teach sexuality is pleasurable

Kindergarten children in Basel, Switzerland will be presented this year with fabric models of human genitalia in a “sex box” to teach them that “contacting body parts can be pleasurable.”

The kit for teachers to give sex-education lessons to primary school children uses models and recommends having children massage each other or to rub themselves with warm sand bags, accompanied by soft music….

I can no longer deny what I’ve long merely suspected: That many “progressive” educators use mandatory public school sex education specifically for the purpose of indoctrinating entire generations of children into being promiscuous as early as possible. Why? To cause the breakdown of the nuclear family, to pave the road for a Brave New World.

Yesterday, it only happened in fiction. Today, it happens in Switzerland. Tomorrow — coming to a school near you.



glanton

Social climber
utopia
Aug 27, 2011 - 05:47pm PT
Credit: glanton

With Fattard being a very loose number two.


Cretins unite!!!
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Aug 27, 2011 - 08:58pm PT

Too bad that Irene didn't cut the power off for BW. . . .
Vegasclimber

Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
Aug 27, 2011 - 09:25pm PT
OT Marmot sez "Please join me for lunch until this gets back On Topic!...
OT Marmot sez "Please join me for lunch until this gets back On Topic!"
Credit: Vegasclimber
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Aug 27, 2011 - 09:34pm PT
Once you start down the slippery slope of teaching kids about the mechanics of sex, it will invariably (in some school districts at least) eventually lead to advocacy for sex. Combine that with the relentless drive to introduce sex ed at lower and lower grades, and you end up with what’s happening in Switzerland: Telling four-year-olds how pleasurable sex is and leading them in classroom activities that are tantamount to public masturbation:



BWA HA HA hahahaaa!!! Bookie is channeling Michelle Bitchman!!


*Birth = breathing = growing = hearing = seeing = learning = erection = school = lights = camera = public = masturbation = ACTION!!!

You're so right Bookie. People haven't figured sex out for the last 100,000 years. (Oooops sorry, the earth is only 6,000 years old)

Where ever did all these people come from without liberals teaching us how to masturbate in public?? BWA HA HA hahahaaaaa!!!!

Just look at all those folks beating off on the school bus in Switzerland!!!
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
SoCal
Aug 27, 2011 - 10:24pm PT
Public Education = Socialist System

NO complaining unless you have the money for pay for your kids private education. Get busy.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 28, 2011 - 03:12am PT
‘Sex box’ for Swiss kindergarteners has genitalia toys: will teach sexuality is pleasurable

Kindergarten children in Basel, Switzerland will be presented this year with fabric models of human genitalia in a “sex box” to teach them that “contacting body parts can be pleasurable.”


yep, i'm a troglodyte because i think it's inappropriate to 1) provide KINDERGARTENERS with "genitalia toys"; 2) encourage KINDERGARTENERS to seek/practice sexual pleasure; 3) allow adults i barely know to "teach" KINDERGARTENERS about sexual pleasure


if your neighbor was offering the same "education" and sharing the same "toys" you'd have him arrested for child abuse; however, since these people are "educators" (whatever that means), you're willing to abdicate your responsibilities as parents or, worse, your responsibilities as citizens while you send your own children to private school


"'tis new to you"
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Aug 28, 2011 - 03:24am PT
Get a life dude..

Have you ever been to Switzerland?
Hard to find a more conservative place in the world.
Check It out...maybe do a climb..
You would be surprised how different of a world it is...

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 13, 2011 - 07:51am PT
i wasn't knocking switzerland; in fact, i love the fact that everyone there owns a gun--BY LAW!


anyway, see what liberalism hath wrought: moral relativity

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/13/opinion/if-it-feels-right.html?_r=2&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
FortMental

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 13, 2011 - 08:00am PT


The original, and still the best, sex box.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Sep 13, 2011 - 08:09am PT
Get a grip dude.

How about something important like: What Conservatism Hath Wrought

*Conservative: genital mutilation

*Conservative: girls married off as children

*Conservative: Girls beaten for trying to go to school

*Conservative: Girls schools burned down

You know, important stuff....
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 13, 2011 - 04:32pm PT
what liberalism hath wrought:


Fourth-Trimester Abortion
September 13, 2011 10:43 A.M.
By Mark Steyn

From the Court of Queen’s Bench (the appellate court) in Alberta:

The Wetaskiwin, Alta., woman convicted of infanticide for killing her newborn son, was given a three-year suspended sentence Friday by an Edmonton Court of Queen’s Bench judge.

Katrina Effert was 19 on April 13, 2005, when she secretly gave birth in her parents’ home, strangled the baby boy with her underwear and threw the body over a fence into a neighbour’s yard…

Effert will have to abide by conditions for the next three years but she won’t spend time behind bars for strangling her newborn son.

Indeed. As Judge Joanne Veit puts it:

“While many Canadians undoubtedly view abortion as a less than ideal solution to unprotected sex and unwanted pregnancy, they generally understand, accept and sympathize with the onerous demands pregnancy and childbirth exact from mothers, especially mothers without support,” she writes… “Naturally, Canadians are grieved by an infant’s death, especially at the hands of the infant’s mother, but Canadians also grieve for the mother.”

Gotcha. So a superior court judge in a relatively civilized jurisdiction is happy to extend the principles underlying legalized abortion in order to mitigate the killing of a legal person — that’s to say, someone who has managed to make it to the post-fetus stage. How long do those mitigating factors apply? I mean, “onerous demands”-wise, the first month of a newborn’s life is no picnic for the mother. How about six months in? The terrible twos?

Speaking of “onerous demands,” suppose you’re a “mother without support” who’s also got an elderly relative around with an “onerous” chronic condition also making inroads into your time?

And in what sense was Miss Effert a “mother without support”? She lived at home with her parents, who provided her with food and shelter. How smoothly the slick euphemisms — “accept and sympathize . . . onerous demands” — lubricate the slippery slope.


go ahead, google obama and the born alive infant protection act--i dare you


"tis new to you"
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
Sep 13, 2011 - 04:54pm PT
I jumped over the line, na na na!

http://www.factcheck.org/2008/08/obama-and-infanticide/
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Sep 13, 2011 - 06:10pm PT
Get a grip dude.

How about something important like: What Conservatism Hath Wrought

*Conservative: genital mutilation

*Conservative: girls married off as children

*Conservative: Girls beaten for trying to go to school

*Conservative: Girls schools burned down

You know, important stuff....

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 13, 2011 - 06:14pm PT
you left out the Muslim part.
sullly

Trad climber
Sep 13, 2011 - 06:15pm PT
Bookworm: Had Caliban gotten Miranda with child, Prospero would be first in line with her at the island's abortion clinic. As one eng. teacher to another, I disagree with your plot interpretation of the Tempest in post one.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Sep 13, 2011 - 06:18pm PT
you left out the Muslim part.




So? The point is that old bookie seems to think that Switzerland is Satan's realm all of a sudden.

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 16, 2011 - 06:22am PT
mother/daughter lingerie ad: appropriate or the end of the world as we know it?


http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2011/11/16/are-lingerie-ads-featuring-mother-and-daughter-disturbing-or-just-darling/?test=faces
Gary

climber
From the City That Dreams
Nov 16, 2011 - 06:58am PT
bookworm, what's it like to be ruled by fear?
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Nov 16, 2011 - 07:09am PT
i'd like to know whether bookworm has raised any kids of his own. his sensibilities belong in the 1950s.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 16, 2011 - 07:16am PT
Isn't Switzerland well known for its myriad pederasts, rampant rapists, and
pervasive perverts of all colours?
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 16, 2011 - 07:38am PT
tony, i'd like to know if you have pictures of your mother and sister embracing...while wearing lingerie; or your wife and mother-in-law

or if you look forward to taking pictures of your wife and daughter embracing...while wearing lingerie...and if you would display them around your house

if not, why not? perhaps your "sensibilities" might encourage you to take a few snapshots of yourself and your father embracing...while wearing jockstraps...or yourself and your son? certainly, there's nothing to "fear", right?


prospero's response: "tis new to you"
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Nov 16, 2011 - 08:18am PT
didn't answer my question, bookie, and i'll assume you haven't had kids of your own to raise.

today's kids are jaded about sex even before they reach puberty. you can thank various modern media for that, but primarily movies and the internet. if you have parental controls on there, you can bet they have friends who don't, and it really doesn't matter one way or the other. as with every generation, when kids come into their own sexuality they are faced with the dilemma of temptation versus responsibility, and perhaps they deal with it better than was done in less honest times.

the main reason hypocrisies like this rankle me is that our society does miserably in engaging young people and providing them with social structures to see them through this time. so-called primitive societies do much better, with realistic puberty/adulthood rites and traditions which have been tried and true from time immemorial. our society suffers from 2,000 years of christian negation of normal human sexuality. the best we can come up with? the senior prom. first big date. get laid! pregnant? oh, dear ...
karodrinker

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Nov 16, 2011 - 08:23am PT
bookworm, i can only imagine you are a 68 year old virgin. educating youngsters is a good thing, keeping them ignorant...is to get them ready for the tea party.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Nov 16, 2011 - 08:24am PT
our society suffers from 2,000 years of christian negation of normal human sexuality.

No, Tony, you don't understand. There's this old guy in Rome who wears a dress and has never had any sex (well, not with a woman, anyway) in his life who knows what is best for you and your children. He says sex is bad, so you should listen to him.

How can you argue with that?
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Nov 16, 2011 - 08:28am PT
tony, i'd like to know if you have pictures of your mother and sister embracing...while wearing lingerie; or your wife and mother-in-law


Women should never embrace unless they are wearing burquas, or six layers of corderouy.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 16, 2011 - 08:32am PT
no, i don't have kids

and you didn't answer my questions, either, which were actually questions


and where's the hypocrisy?

and do you really argue that sexual mores were less stringent before the advent of christianity, thereby ignoring at least 3,000 years of judaism, not to mention the countless other belief systems that sought to control man's sexual appetite? ever read plato or the five precepts of buddhism? and, out of curiosity, why do you single out christianity and ignore the medieval methods (i.e. female circumcision)of modern muslim societies? talk about "fear"


do you argue that kids should have free access to porn? do you allow your kids such freedom? do you suggest that porn is the best way for kids to learn how to deal with their emerging sexuality? sexting ok with you, too? will you encourage your kids to partake in such "explorations"?

i applaud celebrating the beauty and sexuality of older women, but, yeah, i'm creeped out by COMMERCIAL ADS that specifically portray a mother and daughter wearing lingerie in sexually suggestive poses
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 16, 2011 - 08:35am PT
ghost, obviously, you don't understand christianity, either, which says that sex is awesome but that we need to control our urges...and, again, why not any bigoted comments about muslims? coward
karodrinker

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Nov 16, 2011 - 08:40am PT
christianity sucks dude. islam sucks too. as do all myths created to control humans.
WBraun

climber
Nov 16, 2011 - 08:45am PT
christianity sucks dude. islam sucks too. as do all myths created to control humans.

Then why are you trying to control humanity?

Saying do what you want and f*#k all those other systems is control too.

There's no escape from "control"

Heheh

karodrinker

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Nov 16, 2011 - 08:52am PT
natural law, the only control that matters.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Nov 16, 2011 - 09:33am PT
ghost, obviously, you don't understand christianity, either, which says that sex is awesome but that we need to control our urges...and, again, why not any bigoted comments about muslims? coward

Coward? I'm a coward because I don't make bigoted comments about muslims?

For what it's worth, the Muslim tradition seems to have an even more disturbing view of women and sex than the Christian one. (There, I said it, does that make me brave in your eyes?)

Now, about the other thing. You say christianity says "that sex is awesome." If that's true, I must have missed it in the bible. Can you point me to the right chapter and verse? I can remember things like it being okay to conquer people and make them slaves, and that I should put adulterers to death, and that if I get a wound in my testicles I can't enter the house of the lord, but I really don't remember "Sex is awesome."

Seriously, where in the bible does it say that sex is awesome?
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 16, 2011 - 11:09am PT
the bible/christianity condemns sex outside of marriage; however, inside marriage, sex is celebrated as a sacred act of creation; the catholics, in particular, (and mormons, too, i think) promote a vigorous sex life within marriage


still waiting for those mother/daughter, mother-in-law/wife, father/son underwear pics from tony, survival, karo, etc...why aren't you guys posting up? i'm a neanderthal seeking enlightenment; help a fellow climber improve his "sensibilities"
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Nov 16, 2011 - 11:17am PT
FortMental's chick looks like a trannie!

rock hard pecs and a tiny weenie in that bikini bottom

face pic?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 16, 2011 - 11:47am PT
Some people live in a very fragile personal world...
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2012 - 10:17am PT
californians suing to expose themselves to children:


http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/03/27/owners-of-socal-nudist-resort-forced-to-defend-no-kids-policy-in-court/




miranda: oh, brave new world that has such creatures in't

prospero: 'tis new to thee
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2012 - 06:30am PT
KING LEAR: Better thou/Hadst not been born than not to have pleased me better.

is there anything worse than a parent saying to a child, "i wish you had never been born"?

maybe the parent declaring so in a court of law...


http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/blessing-curse_640524.html?page=1


MIRANDA: oh, brave new world that hath such people in it

PROSPERO: 'tis new to thee



"wrongful birth"?

winston smith is dead
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Apr 26, 2012 - 06:37am PT
^^^ Drama Queen.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 26, 2012 - 06:45am PT
OSLO, Norway (AP) — Facing terror with music, tens of thousands gathered in squares across Norway to sing a children's song that gunman Anders Behring Breivik claimed is being used to brainwash young Norwegians.

The defiant Facebook protest against the right-wing fanatic took place as survivors gave tearful testimony Thursday in his trial for the July 22 bombing-and-shooting rampage that killed 77 people, mostly teenagers.

Some 40,000 people converged at a central square in Oslo in the pouring rain to sing the 1970's song "Children of the Rainbow" — a Norwegian version of American folk music singer Pete Seeger's "Rainbow Race."

Later they were to lay roses on the steps of the courthouse in memory of those killed in the massacre.

In testimony last week, Breivik mentioned the song as an example of how he believes "cultural Marxists" have infiltrated Norwegian schools, triggering a Facebook intiative for Thursday's protests.

Shocked by Breivik's lack of remorse for his massacre, Norwegians by and large have decided the best way to confront him is by demonstrating their commitment to everything he loathes.

In court Thursday, people who survived Breivik's car bomb in Olso's government district gave emotional testimony as he listened expressionless.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 26, 2012 - 06:46am PT
OSLO, Norway (AP) — Facing terror with music, tens of thousands gathered in squares across Norway to sing a children's song that gunman Anders Behring Breivik claimed is being used to brainwash young Norwegians.

The defiant Facebook protest against the right-wing fanatic took place as survivors gave tearful testimony Thursday in his trial for the July 22 bombing-and-shooting rampage that killed 77 people, mostly teenagers.

Some 40,000 people converged at a central square in Oslo in the pouring rain to sing the 1970's song "Children of the Rainbow" — a Norwegian version of American folk music singer Pete Seeger's "Rainbow Race."

Later they were to lay roses on the steps of the courthouse in memory of those killed in the massacre.

In testimony last week, Breivik mentioned the song as an example of how he believes "cultural Marxists" have infiltrated Norwegian schools, triggering a Facebook intiative for Thursday's protests.

Shocked by Breivik's lack of remorse for his massacre, Norwegians by and large have decided the best way to confront him is by demonstrating their commitment to everything he loathes.

In court Thursday, people who survived Breivik's car bomb in Olso's government district gave emotional testimony as he listened expressionless.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 26, 2012 - 06:46am PT
OSLO, Norway (AP) — Facing terror with music, tens of thousands gathered in squares across Norway to sing a children's song that gunman Anders Behring Breivik claimed is being used to brainwash young Norwegians.

The defiant Facebook protest against the right-wing fanatic took place as survivors gave tearful testimony Thursday in his trial for the July 22 bombing-and-shooting rampage that killed 77 people, mostly teenagers.

Some 40,000 people converged at a central square in Oslo in the pouring rain to sing the 1970's song "Children of the Rainbow" — a Norwegian version of American folk music singer Pete Seeger's "Rainbow Race."

Later they were to lay roses on the steps of the courthouse in memory of those killed in the massacre.

In testimony last week, Breivik mentioned the song as an example of how he believes "cultural Marxists" have infiltrated Norwegian schools, triggering a Facebook intiative for Thursday's protests.

Shocked by Breivik's lack of remorse for his massacre, Norwegians by and large have decided the best way to confront him is by demonstrating their commitment to everything he loathes.

In court Thursday, people who survived Breivik's car bomb in Olso's government district gave emotional testimony as he listened expressionless.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - May 10, 2012 - 03:42am PT
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/viewing-child-pornography-not-crime-according-york-court-165025919.html?fb_action_ids=10151697180740704,10151697173660704,3415838393237,3212439764359,3212434804235&fb_action_types=news.reads&fb_ref=fb_opengraph,type:read,user:ap3nJFYwrLYUYaMg2WcCgoYBUGc,type:read,user:hW5qjdZTXU57Nz6HpCh6ItvTmRE,type:read,user:sVbaqS-UHPkSF3zt2f-ryand2DE&fb_source=other_multiline&code=AQCZRhRtkFCs_byWCQtkH-mHxhxy9Ke7p4hDNxqvN2zo-QHtXUtPtzoenmcFzL4Oj74ur_81KXDiJBiCLgot83JdoawNpjg4zG6OZbo0TfR2Ouec_EXNiEy0WPPLqo38BWSHG7qs9T8jxlxVYyLtdlnfLmu9iH5mSFhSJ-zAEBs_1IhRJnH8bVK8LrbjFDwM8DY#_=_


miranda: oh, brave new world that has such men in it.

prospero: 'tis new to thee.
sullly

Trad climber
May 10, 2012 - 06:24am PT
Prospero: These actors, as I foretold you,
were all spirits, and are melted into air...
We are such stuff as dreams are made on;
and our little life is rounded with a sleep.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 10, 2012 - 07:14am PT
Great Conservatives of the last century. Please God, Bring Us More of these brave, stalwart and visionary men to save us from liberals!!















survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 10, 2012 - 08:50am PT
There's this old guy in Rome who wears a dress and has never had any sex (well, not with a woman, anyway) in his life who knows what is best for you and your children. He says sex is bad, so you should listen to him.

Ghost for the win, again....


And since nookie, er, I mean bookie wants to see a picture of my sister:
It's ok man, you may pray for her.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 10, 2012 - 09:23am PT
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 7, 2012 - 04:06am PT
"We have evolved to need coercion."

winston smith is dead



miranda: oh, brave new world that hath such men in it

prospero: 'tis new to thee


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/06/opinion/evolutions-sweet-tooth.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 7, 2012 - 05:49am PT
barry refuses to allow lech walesa (the man who helped bring down the soviet union--union of soviet SOCIALIST republics--to accept jan karski's medal of freedom

barry claims walesa is "too political"

walesa was arrested by the soviets for "POLITICAL dissent"


barry honors dolores huerta with a medal of freedom on the same day he honors karksi

huerta is the honorary chair of the democratic SOCIALISTS of america




winston smith is dead
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2012 - 09:13am PT
death panels? that's crazy talk. but "death pathways"? well...


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2240075/Now-sick-babies-death-pathway-Doctors-haunting-testimony-reveals-children-end-life-plan.html


miranda: oh, brave new world that has such men in it

prospero: 'tis new to thee

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 29, 2012 - 09:26am PT
oh, brave new world that has such men in it

Credit: survival




Credit: survival
socialclimber

Trad climber
CA
Nov 29, 2012 - 10:25am PT
When I see stickers or t-shirts that say "Real Men Love Jesus" should I think of that as gay necrophilia? If you think that question is offensive, consider all that has been done in the name of religion, order, salvation, etc...

Charles
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2013 - 03:48am PT
"But the Netherlands decided in 1996 that street prostitution was a decent way to earn money and created several ‘tolerance zones’ for men to safely rent a vagina, anus or mouth for a few minutes."

here's the whole article: http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/8835071/flesh-for-sale/



miranda: oh, brave new world that has such people in it

prospero: 'tis new to thee
dirtbag

climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 05:18am PT
zzzzzzz...
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Feb 20, 2013 - 05:52am PT
no, i don't have kids
Gee there's a surprise!
And Lech Walsea is polish not soviet/Russian duh!
new world order2

climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 07:58am PT
TV box that spies on you

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2278701/Big-Brother-TV-Intel-latest-firm-announce-box-spies-you.html
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Feb 20, 2013 - 08:07am PT
Man, you're really pissed off this morning, aren't you, booky?

What substance did you run out of yesterday?
new world order2

climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 08:10am PT
Big Brother spyware Riot can even predict future crime

http://metro.co.uk/2013/02/10/big-brother-spyware-riot-can-even-predict-future-crime-3401333/

Pentagon Inks Deal for Smartphone Tool That Scans Your Face, Eyes, Thumbs

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/02/biometric-smartphone/
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Feb 20, 2013 - 08:22am PT
Your ride is here
Your ride is here
Credit: kennyt
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Feb 20, 2013 - 08:24am PT
Credit: Dr. F.


Go Booky, you tell us how f-ed up we are
Credit: Dr. F.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 20, 2013 - 05:55am PT
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_ABORTION_CLINIC_DEATHS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-03-19-02-54-43

miranda: oh brave new world that has such men in it

prospero: 'tis new to thee
new world order2

climber
Mar 20, 2013 - 06:51am PT
This World is Utterly Insane

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dzb73VIMCMQ&feature=player_embedded#!

"We live in a world where it seems ok for children to sign their names on bombs that drop on other children."

"We live in a world of plenty, and yet people starve, for want of the basics."

photo not found
Missing photo ID#293926
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2013 - 10:47am PT
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/video-planned-parenthood-official-argues-right-post-birth-abortion_712198.html

see that, f, "post birth abortion"

remember our little spat a few years back when you were whining about waterboarding and defending abortion? i offered an opportunity to demonstrate the courage of your convictions: i'll let you waterboard me, if you let me abort you (and you can go first)

you replied, "i can't be aborted because i've already been born"

well, according to planned parenthood (an organization i'm sure you support unconditionally) you can still be aborted

so, i make my offer again...c'mon, f, here's your chance to prove waterboarding is "torture" on a loathsome conservative...all i get to do is eliminate a "clump of cells" that i find inconvenient


miranda: oh, brave new world that has such men in it

prospero: 'tis new to thee
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2013 - 10:52am PT
we can't give an 11-year-old girl an aspirin but we can sell them abortion pills:


http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/judge-orders-fda-plan-b-pill-women-ages-article-1.1308471#ixzz2PbEp0kEK



miranda: oh, brave new world that has such men in it

prospero: 'tis new to thee
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Apr 5, 2013 - 10:54am PT
You're a moron Bookworm

There are no such things as a post birth abortions, did you read the article? apparently not
They are discussing what to do with a baby that survives an Abortion, let it die, or force it to live, they are not going to perform an abortion on it. But of course it was the Weekly Standard, so they propagandized it to sound like a post birth abortion, and only a fool would fall into that trap.

It doesn't really matter, because God told me that's it's OK to let the aborted babies die, God is OK with abortion (since the mother can't care for it), and he said that only those babies that live past a couple days get a soul implanted



and still Water Boarding is a War crime punishable by Death, That's what America did to the Japanese after WW11.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 5, 2013 - 10:58am PT
That David Icke guy is the same one who believes in Lizard People controlling the world.

Where do you stand on that one Book? Or New World Order?

Do you believe Lizard People are running the planet? Geez, the real humans that are running the world from one time zone to the next aren't f*^%ed up enough, so we invent lizard people?
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 5, 2013 - 11:27am PT
The hard right evangelical part of conservatism (rather than basic conservative political values) is going to spell the doom of the Republicans as this new generation starts voting.

They are sort of the U.S. version of the Muslim Brotherhood.
hillrat

Trad climber
reno, nv
Apr 5, 2013 - 11:52am PT
huh, lacking much in the way of reasonable explanations of sex from my parents (other than dont do it til yer older) i learned quite a bit from porn. lucky i never got anyone pregnant til now, i guess. anyway, theres no such conspiracy as trying to dissolve the "traditional american family". now contrails and obamb as the antichrist on the other hand...

work sucks.
hillrat

Trad climber
reno, nv
Apr 5, 2013 - 11:58am PT
theres a connection here- the aliens brought color tv to roswell, which was subsequently used to brainwash the people with programs like V, where an alien race of lizard people try to take over earth. only we were saved by a bigfoot/godzilla partnership when the prez denounced his stated faith and declared jihad on the infidel lizards because the wanted to teach sex ed using fabric vaginas. what, you missed that episode?
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2013 - 07:32am PT
just for you, f


http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/04/10/philadelphia-abortion-clinic-horror-column/2072577/



miranda: oh, brave new world that has such men in it

prospero: 'tis new to thee


read your history, f, what the japanese called "waterboarding" is far different (people died, f lied) than anything we did to ksm, et al.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2013 - 04:52am PT
what liberalism hath wrought:

http://nymag.com/thecut/2013/04/meet-the-swugs-of-yale-women-washed-up-at-21.html


miranda: oh, brave new world that has such men [and women] in it

prospero: 'tis new to thee
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2013 - 07:35am PT
a murder trial featuring multiple victims, a staff of helpers, beheadings, body parts preserved and displayed as trophies, and all while theoretically under government oversight?

haven't heard about it?

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20130412_Teen_intern_at_Gosnell_clinic_recalls_hearing_one_aborted_fetus__quot_screeching_quot_.html


who could condone such a thing?

http://www.bornalivetruth.org/timeline.php


miranda: oh, brave new world that has such men in it

prospero: 'tis new to thee


Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Apr 13, 2013 - 08:32am PT
Republicans, bringing on the NWO

It's a brave world alright, the crazy have taken over the minds of millions!!
Credit: Dr. F.

Who would have thought you can work anti-abortion into the pro-gun issue.
Life and death, all one BS ideology

Wouldn't the mom be able to shoot the baby at will, since they can stand their ground! and gun down the threat legally.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2013 - 03:13pm PT
here's a scotus description of f's most valued "right":

Most common is the first-trimester “suction curettage,” in which the “physician” vacuums the unwanted “embryonic tissue” from the womb. By the time the second trimester is reached, this “tissue” has matured into the unmistakable shape of a child. Thus the “dilation and evacuation” procedure is often called for.

Employed millions of times in this most civilized country over the last half century, “D&E,” the court explained, involves the “physician’s” use of forceps “to tear apart” the “fetus” by “ripping” it from the cervix and then “evacuating the fetus piece by piece . . . until it has been completely removed” from the mother. Often, the justices observed, the D&E “physician” finds it more congenial to “kill the fetus a day or two before performing the surgical evacuation,” since “medical” experience has shown that, “once dead . . . the fetus’ body will soften,” becoming “easier” to dice and remove. Oh, another helpful tip: “Rotating the fetus as it is being pulled decreases the odds of dismemberment.”

By the time Carhart was decided, Roe v. Wade had been on the books for over a generation — the generation, to be more specific, that is now ruling the roost. It goes without saying — for we wouldn’t want to say it — that, in a nation that has absorbed this generation’s preening “values,” D&E already enjoyed the stamp of judicial approval. The only question before the Carhart Court was whether “partial birth” abortion — “intact D&E” — was beyond the pale.

This “medical procedure” is triggered by an advanced stage of maturation, in which the child’s well-developed head tends to “lodge in the cervix.” Relying on the instruction of Martin Haskell, another experienced abortionist, the justices related:

The right-handed surgeon slides the fingers of the left [hand] along the back of the fetus and “hooks” the shoulders of the fetus with the index and ring fingers (palm down). While maintaining this tension, lifting the cervix and applying traction to the shoulders with the fingers of the left hand, the surgeon takes a pair of blunt curved Metzenbaum scissors in the right hand. He carefully advances the tip, curved down, along the spine and under his middle finger until he feels it contact the base of the skull under the tip of his middle finger.

The surgeon then forces the scissors into the base of the skull. . . . He spreads the scissors to enlarge the opening. . . . The surgeon [then] removes the scissors and introduces a suction catheter into this hole and evacuates the skull contents. With the catheter still in place, he applies traction to the fetus, removing it completely from the patient.

“Evacuates the skull contents” may be more bracing than “snip,” but it doesn’t quite do justice to the process and the frightful insouciance behind it. That was left to a nurse who had watched Haskell perform the “procedure” on a six-month-old “however way you want to describe it.” She recalled that, once all but the head had been delivered,

the baby’s little fingers were clasping and unclasping, and his little feet were kicking. Then the doctor stuck the scissors in the back of his head, and the baby’s arms jerked out, like a startle reaction, like a flinch, like a baby does when he thinks he is going to fall.

The doctor opened up the scissors, stuck a high-powered suction tube into the opening, and sucked the baby’s brains out. Now the baby went completely limp. . . . He cut the umbilical cord and delivered the placenta. He threw the baby in a pan, along with the placenta and the instruments he had just used."


miranda: oh, brave new world that has such men in it

prospero: 'tis new to thee
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
here you go, f, more heroes of "choice" (Alberto Giubilini,
1,2; Francesca Minerva):

CONCLUSIONS
If criteria such as the costs (social, psychological, economic) for
the potential parents are good enough reasons for having an
abortion even when the fetus is healthy, if the moral status of
the newborn is the same as that of the infant and if neither has
any moral value by virtue of being a potential person, then the
same reasons which justify abortion should also justify the
killing of the potential person when it is at the stage of
a newborn.

Two considerations need to be added.

First, we do not put forward any claim about the moment
at which after-birth abortion would no longer be permissible, and
we do not think that in fact more than a few days would be
necessary for doctors to detect any abnormality in the child. In
cases where the after-birth abortion were requested for non-
medical reasons, we do not suggest any threshold, as it depends on
the neurological development of newborns, which is something
neurologists and psychologists would be able to assess.

Second, we do not claim that after-birth abortions are good
alternatives to abortion. Abortions at an early stage are the best
option, for both psychological and physical reasons. However, if
a disease has not been detected during the pregnancy, if some-
thing went wrong during the delivery, or if economical, social or
psychological circumstances change such that taking care of the
offspring becomes an unbearable burden on someone, then
people should be given the chance of not being forced to do
something they cannot afford.


my offer still stands;; let's see the courage of your convictions
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 13, 2013 - 03:37pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#298700
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 13, 2013 - 03:51pm PT
Bookwork nails it. The Republicans have a big problem with social issues. Previously that was the property of the liberals.

There may not be a Republican Party in twenty years. There will be a centrist offshoot that would gobble up the centrists in both parties, the only ones who actually get things done.

Seriously, the right is being torn to shreds from the evangelical voice which isn't shared by most Americans.

Who hear sets their DVR to catch every episode of "The 700 Club"?

Pat Robertson is mainly nuts. The only thing sensible he has said in as far as I can remember is about marijuana.

Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Apr 14, 2013 - 07:58am PT
Bookworm nails it alright
The worst of the worst possible

A combination Of Right Wing Republicanism with Evangelical Right Wing Christianity

Just like we were warned about a millions times
look out for the Flag Draped Cross
Credit: Dr. F.

And to add a note for bookworm, who thinks that Torture is cool if done by his cult, 100s died of Torture by the hands of Americans, at Gitmo, Iraq and Afghanistan. There was alot more torture going on other than Water Boarding, we all saw the pics, and read about the constant dehumanising techniques used to Break them.

Boy, and all torture provided some mighty fine intelL, right?
WRONG

It was all done in vain, a illegal war based on lies, and incompetent response to a known terrorist attack that could have stopped

My last word, the Right Wing have more blood on their hands than any other group of people known to man.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Apr 14, 2013 - 08:26am PT
That bumper sticker is hilarious!!!

You know right wingers are usually terrible at humor (too mean spirited). But that one is really cracking me up. Of course it was unintended, but that makes it ever MORE funny!
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2013 - 09:20am PT
a pic just for f:

Credit: bookworm

a freezer full of fetuses: http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20130416_Doctor_says_47_frozen_fetuses_unprecedented.html


miranda: oh, brave new world that has such men [like f] in it

prospero: 'tis new to thee
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 16, 2013 - 09:25am PT
That's right, take us to church and PREACH IT brother!

Credit: survival
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 16, 2013 - 09:28am PT




bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 17, 2013 - 06:37am PT
here's some more casual reading, f; maybe you can whisper these sweet nothings to your wife...or enjoy a page or two over breakfast...or simply bask in the glorious results of your most prized "constitutional right":

http://www.phila.gov/districtattorney/pdfs/grandjurywomensmedical.pdf


miranda: oh, brave new world that has such men [like f] in it

prospero: 'tis new to thee
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2013 - 11:11am PT
wait, isn't "viability" the basis of the whole pro-abortion position? because the "fetuses" are not "viable" outside the womb, then they're not really babies...


well,

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/nyt-calls-babies-born-alive-during-gosnells-abortions-viable-fetuses


once again, f, i offer my challenge...according to nyt, you are a "viable fetus" and, as you so vehemently declare, fetuses can and should be aborted if they are "inconvenient"

you waterboard me; then, i abort you

afterwards, we can reaffirm the constitutionality of our positions...we'll accept your affirmation in writing


miranda: oh, brave new world that has such men [like f] in it

prospero: 'tis new to thee
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Apr 26, 2013 - 11:11am PT
your a sick f
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 26, 2013 - 11:21am PT
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 30, 2013 - 06:26am PT
legal, safe, and rare?

well, f, i guess one out of three ain't bad...at least, it's good enough for you

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/04/29/gosnells-abortion-atrocities-no-aberration-column/2122235/


miranda: oh, brave new world that has such ['viable fetuses', like f, who thinks i'm "sick"] in it

prospero: 'tis new to thee
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Apr 30, 2013 - 06:46am PT
Brave, noble and principled Bookworm


bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 06:21am PT
hey, bruce, haven't seen you complain about barry's drone assassinations that included an american citizen and his 16-year-old son...or show any sympathy for gosnell's victims--mothers or children


what liberalism hath wrought:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/5972632/Woman-getting-married-to-fairground-ride.html


miranda: oh, brave new world that has such men it

prospero: 'tis new to thee
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 2, 2013 - 06:22am PT
ontheedge was right,

the word is "creepy"
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 09:48am PT
oh, the irony...

"A 19-year-old McCaskey East High School student was charged with concealing the death of a child after she reportedly gave birth to a fetus that was found dead in a school bathroom Tuesday night."


for you libs, whose moral relativity prevents you from understanding, allow me to point it out:

how can somebody be charged with "concealing the death of a CHILD" if she only gave birth to a "fetus"?


miranda: oh, brave new world that has such men in it

prospero: 'tis new to thee
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 2, 2013 - 10:07am PT






Credit: survival
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2013 - 03:57am PT
what liberalism hath wrought:

the difference between ignorance and apathy? none, if you're a liberal


sympathy for those who vow to kill innocents:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/02/guantanamo-hunger-strike_n_3188170.html


indfference toward those who risks their lives to stop those who vow to kill innocents:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/05/02/hero-doc-who-helped-find-bin-laden-on-hunger-strike-in-pakistani-prison/?test=latestnews


miranda: oh, brave new world that has such men in it

prospero: 'tis new to thee


winston smith is dead
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - May 10, 2013 - 06:50am PT
what liberalism hath wrought:

so, the ohio kidnapper and child rapist canNOT be executed for kidnapping, imprisoning and raping at least three girls for 10 years based on the scotus' "evolving standards of decency" decision

how's that for a war on women (and children)? i guess libs don't consider his actions "torture"


wait, the prosecutor is considering the death penalty? because the kidnapper/racist beat one of the girls and caused her to have a miscarriage?

"2903.01 Aggravated murder.

(A) No person shall purposely, and with prior calculation and design, cause the death of another or the unlawful termination of another’s pregnancy…

(F) Whoever violates this section is guilty of aggravated murder, and shall be punished as provided in section 2929.02 of the Revised Code."


wait, how can one "cause the death of another" when the other is not alive but simply a fetus? how can one commit "aggravated MURDER" against a "clump of cells"?

wait, doesn't this mean the fetus is given more protection than the woman carrying the fetus? see, it's "evolved decency" to spare a man who kidnaps, imprisons, and rapes a woman for 10 years and to execute a man who terminates a fetus

where's the outrage?


miranda: oh, brave new world that has such men in it

prospero: 'tis new to thee


winston smith is dead
rSin

Trad climber
calif
May 10, 2013 - 07:07am PT
Credit: rSin
forgive them father,
for they care not who they f*#k over...
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2013 - 06:40am PT
hey, rsin, they'll also believe you when you tell them the government can/will solve all their problems


gosnell GUILTY on three counts of PREMEDITATED murder...

BOOM!


and now faces a possible death sentence for MURDERING two people that f believes weren't alive

oh, the irony...


miranda: oh, brave new world that has such men in it

prospero: 'tis new to thee
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 14, 2013 - 09:00am PT
Credit: survival
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2013 - 07:25am PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww3GbL-n0j0


miranda: oh, brave new world that has such men in it

prospero: 'tis new to thee
dirtbag

climber
May 31, 2013 - 07:38am PT
Lol, the only one interest in bookie's sobfest is bookie.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2014 - 05:09am PT
read it and weep..for mankind

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/the-closing-of-the-scientific-mind/


miranda: oh, brave new world that has such men in it

prospero: 'tis new to thee
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jan 4, 2014 - 08:55am PT
Access to the clif notes of the Tempsest in the wrong hands is a tedious thing
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 13, 2014 - 04:40pm PT
children should have the right to die:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/13/world/europe/belgium-euthanasia-law-children/


miranda: oh, brave new world that has such men in it

prospero: 'tis new to thee
dirtbag

climber
Feb 13, 2014 - 04:44pm PT
^^^^coward
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Feb 13, 2014 - 06:02pm PT
Why? To cause the breakdown of the nuclear family, to pave the road for a Brave New World.

Huxley and Orwill lived through, and tried to warn of the dangers of State-ism. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis also dove into it in a more indirect manner.

These guys lived through the scourge of totalitarianism firsthand. They witnessed how they State slowly grabs control (in Italy, Germany, and Eastern Europe) and at first, convinces people how awesome it is, until the State can then assume ultimate control. Works the same way every time, whether it's Socialism, Fascism, or Communism.

The common denominators are repressing individualism, personal liberty, and assuming control of the economy.

Regarding the erosion of the cohesive (nuclear) family unit independent from the State, this is a trademark strictly from the Socialist/Communist playbook. This is how they erode the will of the people to become reliant on the State as 'the Family'.

Don't believe me? Read the Communist Manifesto and the Venona Papers. Their explicit goals, amongst others, were to do away with a common religion (an "opiate of the masses" that conjoined people), and to disintegrate the nuclear family. Both things, family and religion, were impediments to full State control of an independent, free people.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, I hate Commies and State-ists.

If you can't see that this is happening now, and the goal of our current leaders, you're either stupid or a commie.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Feb 13, 2014 - 06:05pm PT
coward
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Feb 13, 2014 - 06:10pm PT
Why am I a coward, Norton? Because you commies are being exposeed for what you are?

Progressive is a synonym for Communist/Socialist. You guys just know that you had to change your name to keep the bullsh#t-train going.

The game is over. You think by calling me a name I will be silent?

Really?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Feb 13, 2014 - 06:13pm PT
odd you would think I was talking about you Bluering

by the way, you get to call me a "commie" when you serve this country in a fuking jungle as I did 40 years ago

Yak-Chik

Trad climber
Phoenix
Feb 13, 2014 - 06:14pm PT
Not sure if it is such an onerous demand putting up with
Liberals emotional-tone-deafness for murdering their own children.

One less Liberal right? The science is still open if they are
unconsciously compelled by their bad genes to self limit their
populations with abortions.




bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Feb 13, 2014 - 06:21pm PT
by the way, you get to call me a "commie" when you serve this country in a fuking jungle as I did 40 years ago

No, I can call out your policy whenever I want BECAUSE we are still free to do so. But your service is obviously to be respected.

Unlike John Kerry.

This isn't a pissing match to who served more BITD. It's more of a discussion of our current trajectory.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Feb 13, 2014 - 06:31pm PT
Not sure if it is such an onerous demand putting up with
Liberals emotional-tone-deafness for murdering their own children.

One less Liberal right? The science is still open if they are
unconsciously compelled by their bad genes to self limit their
populations with abortions.

Well, that is one way to look at it. I smell sarcasm and cynicism.

Ask a liberal "pro-choice" person what they'd think if their Mom chose to have a second-term abortion on them?

The bigger picture is a disregard for the most innocent among us. Killing them. Babies.

Many people are running through hoops to adopt babies and children. There are "choices" that are better than slaughtering little baby lives.
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Feb 13, 2014 - 07:31pm PT
Huxley and Orwill lived through, and tried to warn of the dangers of Right Wing Authoritarism. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis also dove into it in a more indirect manner.

These guys lived through the scourge of Right wing totalitarianism firsthand. They witnessed how they State slowly grabs control (in Italy, Germany, and Eastern Europe) and at first, convinces people how awesome it is, until the State can then assume ultimate control. Works the same way every time, whether it's capitalism, Fascism, or Right Wing Stalinist Communism.

The common denominators is the Right Wing repressing individualism, personal liberty, and assuming control of the economy.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Feb 13, 2014 - 07:48pm PT
Huxley and Orwill lived through, and tried to warn of the dangers of Right Wing Authoritarism. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis also dove into it in a more indirect manner.

These guys lived through the scourge of Right wing totalitarianism firsthand. They witnessed how they State slowly grabs control (in Italy, Germany, and Eastern Europe) and at first, convinces people how awesome it is, until the State can then assume ultimate control. Works the same way every time, whether it's capitalism, Fascism, or Right Wing Stalinist Communism.

The common denominators is the Right Wing repressing individualism, personal liberty, and assuming control of the economy.

You're entitled to your own crazy rantings, but most literary scholars would disagree with your assessment of their works. As the authors would themselves.

Have read their works? Do you think you're clever for wrongly distorting their intents?

It's rather easy to pull bullshit out of your ass, but it doesn't make it accurate.
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Feb 13, 2014 - 07:55pm PT
I've read them
I stand by my assessment
They were not talking about left wing liberalism

It's always the Right Wingers that rule by totalitarism, including Russian and Red Chinese Communism,
they were the opposite of anything liberal
WBraun

climber
Feb 13, 2014 - 08:00pm PT
Blue

You do know ....

That 9 times out of 10 Dr F is always wrong ......
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Feb 13, 2014 - 08:04pm PT
I understand this, Werner. But I dislike it when people distort somewhat classical works of modern literature.

I won't let it stand.
new world order2

climber
Feb 13, 2014 - 08:15pm PT
You guys ever watch Family Guy?

Ever notice the dog dates women, and the baby is always getting it on with adults?

The social programmers are training us to accept beastiality and pedophilia.

I kid you not. They first got this going with Threes Company to accept the homosexual agenda. NTTAWWI.

Oh, brave new world indeed.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Feb 13, 2014 - 08:17pm PT
Yeah, I never watch that show. I've seen it briefly, and turned it off.

It's social programming.
dirtbag

climber
Feb 13, 2014 - 08:20pm PT
Thanks for the laughs!
new world order2

climber
Feb 13, 2014 - 08:29pm PT
Spanish Bus Stop Found With Ad for 'Abuse-Free' Child Pornography

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/02/13/Spanish-bus-stop-found-with-ad-for-abuse-free-child-pornography
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Feb 13, 2014 - 09:46pm PT
No distortion blue. Dr. Fs assessment of OrwEll is spot on. Lit major at UCLA and about a hair breathes awaynfrom going intoma doctorate program, so I think I'm pretty well read.

BTW, don't mistake the right's free market approach as an example of their claimed belief in a small, less restrictive government. Sure they like little regulation of business but they favor less individual rights, such broader search and seizures, eliminating Miranda rights, a woman's right to choose, forcing school prayer, the desth penalty. Sounds big brotherish to me.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 17, 2014 - 05:20am PT
and so it begins...

http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-79305983/


now where do i begin? with my old pal, f, of course

"the Right Wingers that rule by totalitarism, including Russian and Red Chinese Communism"


stalin and mao were right-wingers? i swear, f, i think you're just having fun because nobody could be that idiotic (the ucla-indoctrinated, aside)... but i'm resisting the urge to educate you because i know it will be a waste time

"Lit major at UCLA [that explains everything] and about a hair breathes awaynfrom going intoma doctorate program, so I think I'm pretty well read"

i'll assume you were drunk typing... still, you have another think coming:

favor less individual rights: actually, it's FEWER rights (and LESS freedom), but i digress...it's right-wingers who fight to keep our rights--to bear arms, to speak/think/worship freely, to encourage the press to challenge power, etc...libs, on the other hand, want to limit these rights...libs want to eliminate gun ownership (as did stalin, mao, and hitler); libs have implemented speech codes on college campuses and invent new words to hide their intents (as did stalin, mao, and hitler) such as "reproductive health" to refer to killing babies, "leading from behind" to color barry's cowardice, "job lock" to excuse barrycare's deincentivizing work for greater government largesse, and claiming any and all criticism of barry is "racist"...it's also barry who avoids/restricts/ abuses the press

broader search and seizures and eliminating Miranda rights: it's conservatives rand paul, ted cruz, and mike lee who are protesting barry's expansion of the patriot act and it's barry who is assassinating american citizens without declaring formal charges, acquiring arrest warrants, and allowing a fair and public trial

a woman's right to choose: i'll assume you want abortion any time under any circumstances so it's a matter of timing; conservatives absolutely believe every woman has a right to choose whether she has a baby; we simply believe she should make that choice BEFORE she has sex rather than after and that convenience is not a legitimate reason for terminating a life...concerning rape and the mother's health, it's still a matter of timing but different context; i believe life and "personhood" begin at conception so an abortion is killing a human being--an innocent human being...until you can prove conception does not instantly create a human being, i can't condone abortion at any time

forcing school prayer: actually, allowing school prayer; nobody can "force" you to pray; nobody can impose their beliefs on you unless you are too weak-minded even to ignore them...see no amount of reason, facts, truth, etc. are going to persuade you your entire world view is wrong (partly because you don't believe in right and wrong) so why are you so frightened by an elementary school child passing out christmas cards to classmates or a school choir concert that highlights christmas carols or a sculpture of the 10 commandments on the courthouse lawn?

the desth penalty: actually, i'm opposed, but i do believe in "cruel and unusual punishment" for heinous crimes like raping and murdering a child...you libs want to make sure child rapists/murderers are comfortable in prison and allowed to vote...granted, there's nothing stalinist about that position; it's just absurd

by the way, "lit majors" (unlike english majors) don't believe that literature has any "meaning" so your support of f's meaning is tantamount to a direct refutation of all you've been taught (so maybe there is hope for you...)
dirtbag

climber
Feb 17, 2014 - 06:12am PT
.....zzzzz...

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Feb 17, 2014 - 06:19am PT


Haha, I have successfully resisted being troll into this thread and haven't posted anything....hahah!
dirtbag

climber
Feb 17, 2014 - 06:32am PT
You're a better man than I am.

For you!

Credit: dirtbag
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Feb 17, 2014 - 08:06am PT
What is at the heart of Bookworm and Bluering's delusion, and many other right wingers here?

It's all based in their firm belief of the purely BS propaganda that the "Liberal Agenda" is the direct cause of 100s of millions dead by the hand of Socialism, which is at the heart of the liberal agenda.

They believe that the Nazi's were socialists, and the communist countries were envisioned to be liberal leftist utopias.

Of course it's wrong, Nazi Germany was a Far Right Wing Nationalistic fascist Government with Christianity at it's base, Germany was God's chosen Country, and no one can point to anything about communism and call it liberal, the Communism of Russia and China was ruled by Right Wing totalitarian Rulers.
Fact

The Tea Party is fundamentally a form of fascism, but Bluering will never be able to comes to terms with the facts.
The government in the business of making a profit??? What else would you call that?

Why is Bluering so wrong about liberals?
Because he needs what he hates to be caused by someone else, he will never be able to think of himself as the same as a Nazi, he has to change reality to make the enemy the Nazi's even if it's 100% backwards. And they tell him this lie over and over on right wing media, so his confirmation bias is part of the daily kool aid.


Credit: Dr. F.
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Feb 17, 2014 - 08:11am PT
Some educational information for you guys
You can thank me in advance.

Credit: Dr. F.
Credit: Dr. F.

You Might Be A Fascist If…

Author: Stephen D. Foster Jr. May 7, 2013 12:01 am
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/05/07/you-might-be-a-fascist-if/

Are you a fascist? Many people are fascists and they don’t even realize it. And sometimes, they know it all too well, but hide and deny it. Most of the time though, it’s obvious who the fascists are. For instance, you might be a fascist if…

1. You are obsessed with national power and pride and believe your country doesn’t have to follow the rules and shouldn’t ever apologize for doing things that are wrong. You think your nation can do whatever it wants.

2. You believe in the rule of the few, election rigging, political decisions being made by a select group of officials behind closed doors, embrace the informal and unregulated exercise of political power, arbitrary deprivation of civil liberties, and little tolerance for meaningful opposition.






3. You believe in survival of the fittest, an every man for himself mentality that causes you to believe that poor people and sick people are weak and must be punished. You think rich people are strong because they are wealthy and that they should rule us. You also believe your race is superior to all others.

4. You use the media as a political propaganda machine to target a specific audience and to push your agenda on others. You make sure the media demonizes your opponents and takes your side on nearly every issue. You use your propaganda machine to play on the fears of others.

5. You are obsessed with security, and war. You feed this obsession by spending trillions of dollars building up a large military force and are willing to sacrifice domestic programs your people count on to keep your military huge. You start unnecessary and costly wars and you are paranoid of other nations.




6. You are driven to indoctrinate others into your way of thinking. So much so, that you try to re-write history, change the way school children are taught and you brainwash the ignorant. You use your propaganda machine as a tool to achieve this.

7. You fear and demonize intelligent people who have a higher education because they are the ones who can thwart your effort to brainwash people. You then attempt to prevent others from achieving a higher education because you want the people as ignorant as possible so you can convince them that your way is the right way.

8. You have a deep hatred and fear of communists and you instill your followers with hatred and fear of others by accusing your political opponents of being communists. This gives you an easy scapegoat to blame when things go wrong. Any person or policy you don’t like is branded as communism.

9. You disrespect women and think their place is in the home. You believe women are weak and cannot do things that men do. You believe that sexual harassment or assault is no big deal and that the only thing women are good for is cooking meals and having babies.

10. You strongly align yourself with corporations and you support corporate money and influence in government. You despise government regulations that keep corporations honest because you believe everything should be controlled by the free market and that corporations should be allowed to do whatever they please.

11. You are obsessed with Christianity. You seek to declare a Christian State and to impose religious laws on all the people across the country and the world. You believe other religions are inferior and that those who practice them should either be converted or destroyed.

12. You believe your race is superior and seek to disenfranchise or humiliate other races. You believe in legalized discrimination and fantasize about a return to times when the races were separate or when those of color were enslaved. You use code words in an attempt to hide your racism and you make laws that weaken the influence of those of color. Immigration and voting laws in particular.

13. You absolutely despise unions. To you and those like you, labor unions represent the empowerment of workers. Since you believe corporations can do whatever they want, you see organized labor as a threat because they fight for higher wages, health care, safety regulations, less hours, vacations, sick days, and holidays off. This obviously threatens the amount of money corporations can give to you and your cause so you brand unions as proponents of socialism and make laws that severely weaken them so that corporations can have a cheap, mindless labor force.

14. You are obsessed with crime and a major supporter of punishing those who commit crimes. So much so, that you don’t care about the concept of ‘innocent until proven guilty.’ You are proud of executing people and aren’t bothered if an innocent person is killed. You seek to make harsher laws, especially laws that target specific groups of people such as immigrants, women, and people of color. You also oppose Miranda rights and using humane interrogation tactics and you seek to undermine the independent judiciary.

15. You believe every election should go your way and to reach that goal, you push voting laws that disenfranchise those who traditionally vote for opponents such as people of color, the elderly, college students, and the poor. You even stoop to fixing elections in some cases and complain when your opponents challenge the vote counts.

16. You believe in rewarding your friends with positions when you gain power and you reward those who support you with government contracts and money, especially corporations. You also do your best to aid your supporters in any way you can, such as repealing undesirable pieces of legislation and regulations. You often have something to gain financially from this.

17. You create scapegoats to blame when problems arise. Whether it’s communists, liberals, minorities, homosexuals, the poor, or non-Christians, one thing is for certain. You and your propaganda tool will blame each and every one of those groups for bad things that happen even if you were the cause of the problems in the first place.

18. You take advantage of a national disaster such as an economic collapse or an attack to demonize your opponents and push your agenda. You use these events to strike fear into the population in an attempt to scare people into voting for you and your cause. It’s all about fear and scare tactics.

Sounds just like the Tea Party led Republican Party, doesn’t it?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Feb 17, 2014 - 08:13am PT
he common denominators are repressing individualism, personal liberty, and assuming control of the economy.

Hmmm sounds like the Republican agenda to me.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2014 - 05:19am PT
my favorite: "You take advantage of a national disaster such as an economic collapse or an attack to demonize your opponents and push your agenda. You use these events to strike fear into the population in an attempt to scare people into voting for you and your cause. It’s all about fear and scare tactics."


""don't let a crisis go to waste"...Rahm Emmanuel...barry's first chief of staff...now, f, explain how both he and barry are tea party advocates


ok, back to business:


“What really bothered me is, the whole idea is that at a liberal arts college, we need to be hearing a diversity of opinion,”

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/371625/attacking-diversity-thought-jonah-goldberg


miranda: oh, brave new world that has such men in it

prospero: 'tis new to thee
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2014 - 05:49am PT
all hail margaret sanger--the progressive dream a dream no longer:

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/nyc-more-black-babies-killed-abortion-born


miranda: oh, brave new world that has such men in it

prospero: 'tis new to thee


c'mon, libs, cheer the victory for "reproductive rights"

glanton

Social climber
Babylon
Feb 22, 2014 - 05:54am PT
Bookworm really does care about them black babbies.

Credit: glanton

Me, Bookworm and friends at our last get together.
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Feb 22, 2014 - 08:29am PT
You take advantage of a national disaster such as an economic collapse or an attack to demonize your opponents and push your agenda. You use these events to strike fear into the population in an attempt to scare people into voting for you and your cause. It’s all about fear and scare tactics."


""don't let a crisis go to waste"...
BW

Yes, tell us all about 9/11, after Bush Cheney let it happen.
How about Reagan spending trillions on the old War?? all for nothing.

How did Obama take advantage of some (unspecified) crisis??
Which one? what did he do? how did it work out?
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 27, 2014 - 03:48am PT
another victory for "reproductive rights":

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/mississippi-72-babies-aborted-are-black


i'm sure you're very proud, f; you're protecting thousands of black babies from the horrors of voter id laws, the despair of job lock, the burden of paying for their own birth control, the pain and suffering from the war on women, and the shame of growing up in a racist nation...i expect you'll be doubling your monthly contribution to planned parenthood


miranda: oh, brave new world that has such me in it

prospero: 'tis new to thee
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Feb 27, 2014 - 04:58am PT
How did Obama take advantage of some (unspecified) crisis?

He hopped onto the coattails of Bush's and used them to yet further extend government power over the lives of everyday Americans.

Which one?

You name it. How about 9/11 for a start. How about recession? Banking meltdown? Pick your poison!

What did he do?

Cleverly, he promised very specific "change" on a host of levels. Then, once elected, the only "change" he implemented was to oversee much, much MORE of EXACTLY the same crap as we got with Bush, and for the EXACT same motivations:

** Big government and ever-increasing spending: "We've got to spend some money now to pull us out of this recession. But as soon as we're out of this recession, we've got to get serious about starting to live within our means, instead of leaving debt for our children and our grandchildren and our great-grandchildren." (Is this the same guy that refused to negotiate in ANY way with Republicans concerned to reduce spending before raising the debt limit? Is this the guy that has now FAR outspent even Bush, and he's not done yet!?!)

** Corporations suckling at the teat? Business as usual. No change in sight.

** Massive and inordinate military spending. http://www.freedomworks.org/content/president-obama-not-actually-cutting-military-spending-he-should

** Continuation of futile and even illegal wars: "If we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home, we will end this war. You can take that to the bank." All I can take to the bank under Obama is LESS.

** Guantanamo: "We will close the detention camp in Guantanamo Bay, the location of so many of the worst constitutional abuses in recent years." Where was the executive action? Where was the whole-Congress Democratic majority in getting this done?

** Domestic spying: "We reject the use of national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime" Apparently "reject" actually means "embrace" in the Obamactionary.

** The Patriot Act: "We will revisit the Patriot Act and overturn unconstitutional executive decisions issued during the past eight years." Where was an executive action? Where was the Democratic Congress in getting this done?

** Habeas corpus: "We don’t always catch the right person. We may think this is Mohammed the terrorist, it might be Mohammed the cab driver. You might think it's Barack the bomb thrower, but it's Barack the guy running for president. So the reason that you have this principle [habeas corpus] is not to be soft on terrorism, it's because that’s who we are. That's what we're protecting." Okay, so where IS it?

** FOIA requests: "The Freedom of Information Act should be administered with a clear presumption: In the face of doubt, openness prevails... In responding to requests under the FOIA, executive branch agencies should act promptly and in a spirit of cooperation, recognizing that such agencies are servants of the public." Oh, wow! Seriously?

** Tracking of citizens: "We reject the tracking of citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war." No, instead "we" FULLY support the tracking of EVERYBODY at a scope not imagined before in human history! This is another case where in Obama's "dictionary," the word "reject" really means "embrace."

** Warrantless wiretapping: "We will review the current Administration’s warrantless wiretapping program." And, apparently, after review, "we" will find it just FAB and want to extend it even further into the lives of Americans, and then LIE about what we're doing until we get caught at it (see the following item).

** Whistleblowers: "Often the best source about waste, fraud and abuse in government is an existing government employee committed to public integrity and willing to speak out. Such acts of courage and patriotism . . . should be encouraged rather than stifled." Uhhh... the name Snowden come to mind?

** Anybody prosecuted or imprisoned for the mortgage meltdown debacle? Nope!

** Tax increases? "I can make a firm pledge. Under my plan, no family making less than $250,000 a year will see any form of tax increase. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains taxes, not any of your taxes." Okay, flat out LIE! Even Obamacare was "legalized" by being called a "tax."

** Government transparency? "My administration is committed to creating an unprecedented level of openness in government." Uhh... it is to laugh (or cry).

And, keep in mind that when Obama was elected, the Democrats owned Congress and only extended their majority in both houses. For all of his presidency, Democrats have had the majority in the Senate, and for most of his presidency, Democrats have had a majority in the House. So, you can't blame Congress for Obama's failures, lies, and broken promises. HIS party OWNED the government, and at the very time when he enjoyed an unprecedented honeymoon period with Americans!

How did it work out?

Well, history doesn't yet have a solid "take," but the initial results strongly suggest: It is the SUCK!

The only "change" we got was to swirl a bit farther down the vortex.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 27, 2014 - 06:33am PT
Credit: survival






















photo not found
Missing photo ID#346877
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 27, 2014 - 07:20am PT
He doesn't want to engage you, he only wants to preach to you.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 27, 2014 - 07:34am PT
This is a Shakespeare thread? I thought it was about Huxley.
StuporTopo can get so confusing.
new world order2

climber
Feb 27, 2014 - 07:48am PT
madbolter1 nails it, right out of the park!

How is it you guys get duped into thinking there would be change with any administration, be it left or right is beyond me.

Do you love your servitude?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qacTZPOh_Fk
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 27, 2014 - 07:53am PT
and for most of his presidency, Democrats have had a majority in the House.

Obama was elected in 2008. He took office in January of 2009. Republicans took control of the house in 2010. It is now 2014. How does that even remotely equal "most of his presidency?"

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 28, 2014 - 10:45am PT
planned parenthood and your tax dollars: it's all about mammograms...and explaining to teenagers the joys of sado-masochism

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/barbara-hollingsworth/planned-parenthood-produces-video-promoting-bondage-and



miranda: oh, brave new world that has such men in it

prospero: 'tis new to thee
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 28, 2014 - 10:46am PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#347149
Byran

climber
San Jose, CA
Feb 28, 2014 - 11:00am PT
After trying to "claim" George Orwell and other famous authors for the side of right-wing America (and being challenged by Dr F), bluering wrote
most literary scholars would disagree with your assessment of their works. As the authors would themselves. -bluering
But what if I told you that George Orwell was one of the most famous socialists of the 20th century, that he was a member of socialist groups, fought alongside communists in the Spanish Civil War, and believed himself to be a "democratic socialist"? What if I told you that Orwell would be in agreement with Dr F that
It's always the Right Wingers that rule by totalitarism, including Russian and Red Chinese Communism, they were the opposite of anything liberal - Dr F
After all, in a preface to Animal Farm, Orwell wrote
nothing has contributed so much to the corruption of the original idea of Socialism as the belief that Russia is a Socialist country - George Orwell
and from The Road to Wigan Pier
The hoary legend of Communism leading to Fascism. ... The element of truth in it is this: that the appearance of Communist activity warns the ruling class that democratic Labour Parties are no longer capable of holding the working class in check, and that capitalist dictatorship must assume another form if it is to survive. - Orwell
Or if that's not blunt enough for you, how about
please notice that I am arguing for Socialism, not against it. - Orwell
So just how are literary scholars supposed to interpret these words, in your opinion? Or perhaps you've just been engaged in a little bit of doublethink?

Edited to note:
I'm not trying to "claim" George Orwell as a Democrat, just to be clear. There is little doubt he would have many critical things to say about the Obama administration and American partisanship in general. Just pointing out that were he alive today, he would be raked over the coals by Fox News and conservative Christians as a 'radical Commie ideologue'. But since he is not alive, right-wingers have instead opted for the 'revisionary history' route. Conservative bloggers and Glenn Beck pull his quotes out of context and public schools teach Animal Farm to children as a sort of Cold War narrative about the triumph of capitalism in America and evil failures of communist Russia. It so richly ironic and absolutely absurd that the works of Orwell should be appropriated in such an Orwellian way; one can't help but laugh.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 28, 2014 - 11:02am PT
Don't sugarcoat it for him Bryan!
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2014 - 04:10pm PT
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/04/health/a-powerful-new-way-to-edit-dna.html?_r=0


miranda: oh, brave new world that has such men in it

prospero: tis new to thee
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 4, 2014 - 05:07pm PT
Bryan, you are distorting "right-wing" to mean that all conservatives are "right-wing", and therefore, fascists because fascists are right-wing.

That would be like me calling all Dems, commies.

There are gradations to political philosophy.

George Orwell would be a conservative independent if he were alive today...
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Mar 4, 2014 - 05:08pm PT
bluering said
That would be like me calling all Dems, commies.


Well thank god that never happens.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 4, 2014 - 05:16pm PT
An anarchist in the late 1920s, by the 1930s he had begun to consider himself a socialist. In 1936, he was commissioned to write an account of poverty among unemployed miners in northern England, which resulted in 'The Road to Wigan Pier' (1937). Late in 1936, Orwell travelled to Spain to fight for the Republicans against Franco's Nationalists. He was forced to flee in fear of his life from Soviet-backed communists who were suppressing revolutionary socialist dissenters. The experience turned him into a lifelong anti-Stalinist.

Between 1941 and 1943, Orwell worked on propaganda for the BBC. In 1943, he became literary editor of the Tribune, a weekly left-wing magazine. By now he was a prolific journalist, writing articles, reviews and books.

Sounds like every young lad. "If you aren't liberal when you're young, you have no heart, and if you are still liberal when you mature, you have no brains".

Bryan, you are trying to make Orwell seem like a socialist or commie.
John M

climber
Mar 4, 2014 - 07:04pm PT
That would be like me calling all Dems, commies.

priceless statement considering all the times that you have called every liberal on this forum a commie
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 4, 2014 - 07:16pm PT
Interesting, Cait. I read into to 'A Brave New World' something different.

It was what feminism will eventually do. And an obsession with sex and not long-term companionship, or the family unit.

It was about personal pleasure at all costs, not creating family units. The destruction of the family was always a goal of communists, and that's where I think Huxley was going. The Venona Papers would later validate this notion of the Commies.

Feminism is fine in moderation, like all other things. But like environmentalism it can be taken to drastic extremes. Unreasonable extremes. Another example would be religious extremists.

I find it interesting that you read anti-woman bias into his book. I found it more nihilistic, anti-family.

There's a Big Lebowski clip out there about nihilists....classic!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_29yvYpf4w
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Mar 4, 2014 - 07:22pm PT
You lose

Sorry bluering and bookworm, wrong again, like always

Don't you ever get tired of being wrong about everything
It sounds like you guys are just suckers to me, suckers for BS and lies
Does the misinformation and lies you gobble up make you feel good?
is that it?

Try the truth for once, it's ugly, but you can't fake it.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Mar 4, 2014 - 07:27pm PT
Feminism is about women's right to ENVISION, CHOOSE and CREATE circumstances and opportunities in their lives. It has nothing to do with a destruction of family.

Unless you think a woman forced to bear children, and having opportunities withheld from her so she must be dependent on a man for survival is imperative as a guard against the breakdown of the traditional western family ideal.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 4, 2014 - 07:30pm PT
For nihilism go to the Russians. They write circles around Huxley.

Hehe! As for Huxley, I guess we all read out of his work what is in our hearts. Our own perceptions. Which is maybe why his work is so popular/controversial.

EDIT:
Unless you think a woman forced to bear children, and having opportunities withheld from her so she must be dependent on a man for survival is imperative as a guard against the breakdown of the traditional western family ideal.

Never said that, nor meant it.


Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 4, 2014 - 07:32pm PT
George Orwell would be a conservative independent if he were alive today...

That may be the stupidest f*#king thing I've ever read.

An anarchist in the late 1920s, by the 1930s he had begun to consider himself a socialist. In 1936, he was commissioned to write an account of poverty among unemployed miners in northern England, which resulted in 'The Road to Wigan Pier' (1937). Late in 1936, Orwell travelled to Spain to fight for the Republicans against Franco's Nationalists. He was forced to flee in fear of his life from Soviet-backed communists who were suppressing revolutionary socialist dissenters. The experience turned him into a lifelong anti-Stalinist.

Between 1941 and 1943, Orwell worked on propaganda for the BBC. In 1943, he became literary editor of the Tribune, a weekly left-wing magazine. By now he was a prolific journalist, writing articles, reviews and books.


Sounds like every young lad. "If you aren't liberal when you're young, you have no heart, and if you are still liberal when you mature, you have no brains".

Bryan, you are trying to make Orwell seem like a socialist or commie.

That may be the stupidest f*#king analysis I've ever read. How could you possibly reach that conclusion from your quoted material?

Bluering, is there a community college near you? You might want to see if they have courses on logic and/or rhetoric.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 4, 2014 - 07:35pm PT
Gary, that stuff I posted is from the BBC archives of famous peoples.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/orwell_george.shtml

Sully, o.k., I'll take your word for it. Seems like you're taking offense at what I said. That was not intended.
new world order2

climber
Mar 4, 2014 - 07:48pm PT
If you really want the gist of what Brave New World is all about, read Brave New World Revisited.

From the back cover....
"BNWR includes Huxley's views on overpopulation, propaganda, advertising, and government control, and is an urgent and powerful appeal for the defense of individualism that is still alarmingly relevant today"

IMO, I also feel BNW is a glimpse into the very real future of designer human beings, the modern day eugenics if you will.

Add to the above (from BNWR).....
"Death control is something which can be provided for a whole people by a few technicians working in the pay of a benevolent government."

As an aside, I seem to be noticing this push from media, and medical community to label everyone as mentally ill.
It's almost as if they want to get us all on some sort of Pharmacuetical drug or other. Soma, anyone?

70 Percent of Americans take Prescription Drugs
http://psychcentral.com/news/2013/06/20/70-percent-of-americans-take-prescription-drugs/56275.html
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 4, 2014 - 08:01pm PT
Again, I think the gist of BNW was that of totalitarianism, whether it be Fascist, Communist, or anti-Feminist.

It was about a...wait....New World Order, where the paradigm of individualism is shifted towards gov't control of how you should conduct yourself. Of what is "acceptable" or "allowed" behaviors.

People like to put Communism and Fascism on opposite sides of the left-right political spectrum, but they are one in their totalitarianism.

Once you understand totalitaranism, nothing really matters. All the stupid labels. Liberty and personal freedom is all that matters. That also includes Feminism, whatever that means now. I'm still puzzled by it.
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Mar 4, 2014 - 08:08pm PT
all totalitarian Leaders are Right Wingers
North Korea, Iraq, Russia, Iran, China

all Right wing hell holes

Their people are revolting and want a Western Liberal Style Democracy
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 5, 2014 - 05:31am PT
Bluering:
Gary, that stuff I posted is from the BBC archives of famous peoples.

Yes, I'm not disputing that. It's the conclusion you drew from it that baffles me.

Was he an anti-Stalinist? You bet, but that didn't make him conservative. The socialists and the anarchists fighting on the republican side in the Spanish Civil War all came to hate Moscow and Berlin with equal fervor.

Did he write propaganda for the BBC? You bet, Britain was in a death struggle with fascism. The fact that he wrote for the BBC doesn't make him conservative.

You have one more false idea, that Orwell was a liberal. No, he was too far to the left to be a liberal.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2014 - 05:29pm PT
what liberalism hath wrought:

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/georgia-536-babies-aborted-are-black


all hail margaret sanger:

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/mississippi-72-babies-aborted-are-black


the progressive dream no longer just a dream:

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/nyc-more-black-babies-killed-abortion-born


you're a doctor, f, what do you think "reproductive rights" will achieve first: eliminating blacks in america or girls in asia?

http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-global-war-against-baby-girls


miranda: oh, brave new world that has such men in it

prospore: tis new to thee
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 5, 2014 - 05:54pm PT
Give it to me Bookie, you big hot conservative stud!

photo not found
Missing photo ID#347962
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2014 - 10:33am PT
$600 MILLION for abortions overseas...to protect animals????

from barry's latest budget:

Credit: bookworm



miranda: oh, brave new world that has such men in it

prospero: tis new to thee
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 6, 2014 - 10:41am PT
Credit: survival
Dal Maxvill

Social climber
Illinois
Mar 7, 2014 - 08:18am PT
sullly, I think you missed his point.
Gilroy

Social climber
Bolderado
Mar 8, 2014 - 10:04am PT
sully, you're badazz.

:) go get 'em!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 8, 2014 - 01:16pm PT
Sully and I merely misinterpreted the gist of the literature. She saw misogyny, and I saw totalitarian twisting of culture and values.

I think we're both right, but Sully seems to dwell on the mysogyist part and miss the bigger picture.

More accurately, I think, is that she just pointed out a perceived trend in the style of the author, with which I'd disagree.

What's ironic here is that the systems displayed in these books, points out out how the systems are oppressive to certain peoples. It's all peoples, actually, but everyone ignores the hurt that aren't themselves.

Everyone will only identify with their class, when push comes to shove. Everybody talks a good game about the poor, minorities, women's rights, but they don't give a fuk until they are directly affected.

This is a problem in our 'enlightened' society.

I wrote about this recently...
http://patdollard.com/2014/02/what-have-we-sown/

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2014 - 06:18am PT
"soylent green is people"


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/10717566/Aborted-babies-incinerated-to-heat-UK-hospitals.html



miranda: oh, brave new world that has such men in it

prospero: 'tis new to thee
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 24, 2014 - 09:05am PT


Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Mar 24, 2014 - 09:25am PT
They burn the Hospital trash and Infectous waste in an incernator so they don't have to transport the materials to another site for incineration.

The waste heat from the incinerator is used to heat the Buildings.
It's nothing new, nor anything to make a big deal out.

But just because there happen to be a couple human fetuses in the incinerator feed, these morons have to make a big stink, get a life - loser.

What do you want them to do with them?
Bury them at a funeral?
Soylent Green? where do you get that, do you want to eat them too?

Get out of your bubble of ignorance for once, and smell the fresh air of progress.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 24, 2014 - 09:53am PT
Bookie's here to save us.


bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2014 - 11:08am PT
it's simple:

i believe, rationally, that all life begins at conception; so, yes, i believe aborted or miscarried children should be treated with dignity and mourned accordingly

f and survival, on the other hand, believe, irrationally, that life begins at some ever-arbitrary point that is most convenient to them, and, accordingly, see no dignity in life at all


how about this, f, every person who believes abortion is a "right" should volunteer their own unborn offspring for incineration...we'll even send the "fuel" to third world countries to help boost their economies...we'll even reduce global warming by reducing the population


i'll also resubmit a previous offer: f, i'll let you waterboard me if you let me abort you...i'll even let you go first; afterwards we'll discuss the morality of each action; granted, you won't have much to say, but i'll help you prove your point by feeding your remains into the nearest incinerator


you don't know soylent green and claim i'm in a bubble? oh, the irony...
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Mar 24, 2014 - 11:11am PT
You're a sic fuk booky
i'll also resubmit a previous offer: f, i'll let you waterboard me if you let me abort you...i'll even let you go first;

a fetus is just like a diseased liver to a hospital, it all goes in the trash
The trash just happens to get burned, and the steam produced heats the building
Sounds like a good use of human tissue to me.
glanton

Social climber
Babylon
Mar 24, 2014 - 11:13am PT
Wants to save the unborn but doesn't want to have anything to do with them there after. Typical of your kind.
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Mar 24, 2014 - 11:16am PT
How about this offer booky
No more abortion if you can feed all the unwanted Children put them through school and give them a job.

And provide birth control to every women free of charge, so they won't have an unwanted Pregnancy.

You had better first vote all the hypocritical Right Wing Faux Christians (like yourself) out of office first, because they "love the fetus, hate the child", and just wish that these unwanted children and unwed mothers would jump off a cliff.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 24, 2014 - 11:18am PT
see no dignity in life at all

What a bunch of bullsh#t. I see plenty of dignity in life, but I see little dignity in a bunch of holier than thou men telling women what they can and can't do with their body. Especially when the aforementioned man has no answer to what to do with all these single mothers who had no honorable christian men to take care of these kids and what to do with all these children in poverty with no great Bookie to raise and pay for them.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 24, 2014 - 11:22am PT
"I see plenty of dignity in life, but I see little dignity in a bunch of holier than thou men telling women what they can and can't do with their body."


Oh hells yes +1!
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Mar 24, 2014 - 11:27am PT
The article headline is misleading.

The article is about SOME hospitals not following procedures, by not providing their patients who have miscarried before 13 weeks with options with regards to the remains.

It is about SOME hospitals not following a protocol that has been established.

It is not about a "widely accepted," Brave New World-like change in societal viewpoint. It is not about shoveling fetus' from abortion facilities into furnaces.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 24, 2014 - 11:33am PT
Let me put it to you this way Bookcheese:

I have personally been involved in four pregnancies in my life. I have raised all these children with my hands, heart, blood, sweat and tears.

I would never FORCE one of my daughters to give birth to the child of an irresponsible man who wanted to f*#k with no birth control, but then refused to follow up as a father.

Tell me about your father knighthood Book, go ahead.
new world order2

climber
Mar 24, 2014 - 11:44am PT
I try to look at things (such as the subject above) down the road, in the not too distant future.

Are we going to see mandatory abortion, euthanasia, and sterilization for those deemed as undesirable/unworthy/unhealthy?
And who decides?

Are we going to see, "The Case for Killing Granny"?

http://voices.yahoo.com/the-case-killing-granny-newsweeks-latest-news-4299111.html

The "case for killing granny" is meant to be a provocative discussion about end-of life treatment. Incidentally, wanting to reduce care for very sick elderly people used to be called euthanasia. The case for killing granny doesn't leave much room for discussion.

Already we are hearing, "there are just too many people, something should be done about it". Again, who decides, and by what criteria?

Personally/IMO, what say those calling for population reduction, be the ones setting an example, no?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 24, 2014 - 12:05pm PT
i believe, rationally, that all life begins at conception

That is COMPLETELY not the relevant point, and the "legislate morality," right wing of Christianity has done more damage to the cause of Christ than can POSSIBLY be expressed!

THE issue in the abortion debate is not when "life" begins. THE issue is when moral value begins, and that CLEARLY is not neatly mapped onto "life."

If I scratch my arm, I am INTENTIONALLY killing millions of LIVE cells. There they were, clinging to my arm just wanting nothing more than to LIVE, but I scraped them off with NO MOURNING nor consideration, and they just fall to floor and DIE. And all for a bit of my selfish convenience!

WHAT is the morally relevant difference between all of those cells I just killed and the single cell that is a fertilized human ovum?

What makes that one cell SO important to right-wing Christians, when you do not decry the MILLIONS of cells that we intentionally kill every time we scratch some spot on our bodies?

Until you can RIGOROUSLY answer such questions, you have NO basis upon which to formulate and enact laws on the subject. And by "rigorous," I do NOT mean quoting Scripture. You do NOT get to impose a purely Scripturally-based morality on this society. We enjoy a separation of (all) church and state. And, anyway, you don't HAVE good Scripturally-based arguments. I know and will be happy to debate you on that subject 'till the cows come home. ALL of the verses used to support the radical anti-abortion campaign are completely misinterpreted and can be trivially shown to be so.

So, do you care to rise to my challenge, or do you prefer to just "have" your opinion not based on anything solid, while spending your life imposing it on other people? You say, "i believe rationally," but, believe ME, your position is not derived RATIONALLY.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 24, 2014 - 12:30pm PT
WHAT is the morally relevant difference between all of those cells I just killed and the single cell that is a fertilized human ovum?

Madbolter1 for the win.

Here is a summary of a very relevant chat I had with a friend. He is a PHD Microbiologist and Plant Pathologist.

We were walking in the desert and he commented on how insignificant human life is, compared to the history of life on Earth, and specifically as a "biomass".
I went for the bait and told him that indeed humans are special, because 500 acre mold colonies don't write symphonies or send spaceships to Mars.
He went into great depth explaining the concepts of life on Earth, and the importance of various "layers" of life.
Basically he boiled it down to human kind being very small, destructive, arrogant and wrong in the big picture of the universe.

But if you believe in the invisible sky-wizard creating the entire universe for us, then it's easy to create moral superiority.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 24, 2014 - 12:41pm PT
But if you believe in the invisible sky-wizard creating the entire universe for us, then it's easy to create moral superiority.

Gotta be careful with that sort of argumentation, though, when arguing with the likes of a "legislate morality" Christian (LMC). If you can't draw a principled moral line between humans and other animals, then you throw the LMC a "rational" bone as he says, "See! You don't hold ANY human life as sacred! No wonder you aren't concerned about the MURDER of millions of innocent babies!"

The better tack is to AGREE that morally-relevant human beings are "sacred" and then proceed to explicate what makes ANY entity morally-relevant. AGREE (for the purposes of argument) with the moral objectivism of LMCs, but just show how misguided THEIR version of it really is.

It is thereby quickly easy to GUT their legislative arguments on a whole spectrum of social issues, ranging from gay marriage to abortion.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 24, 2014 - 12:49pm PT
Gotcha. I agree with you, but have trouble holding my keyboard back at times.

Don't worry, Book will be back and you can proceed to change his mind at that time....heh heh..
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 24, 2014 - 12:58pm PT
LOL... changing his mind will likely be, well, unlikely. But at least some on-the-fence thinkers might be swayed to realize how misguided is the whole LMC paradigm.

Seriously, I'm a Christian, but I DISPISE this LMC form of it (which has become mainstream Christianity)! Mainstream Christianity has become increasingly irrelevant and itself morally bankrupt. So it panders to LMC "morality" in desperate attempts to regain relevance and the "moral high ground." In so doing, it has destroyed the Republican party, alienated most people in this country, and, ironically, REMAINS increasingly irrelevant.

If Christians would be CHRISTIAN, and magnify individual freedom and education (rather than legislation), spending their time serving the poor and underprivileged, and living lives of self-sacrifice (instead of spending ANY time in LMC behaviors), Christianity might regain some relevancy in this society.

Oh, and being just a smidgen of "rational" would also help. But rationality seems to have largely departed from Christianity, to be replaced by pat-answers, smug-certainty, and dogma.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 24, 2014 - 01:00pm PT
Vaginal birth twice was da bomb!!!

Good on ya!

Your whole post was hilarious (and probably correct). LOL
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 24, 2014 - 01:11pm PT
Wow Mad, you write so much more,...ummm, Christian....than many we read/hear or are otherwise exposed to currently.

It's easy for me to forget some of the greats I've known when confronted with the foaming at the mouth on both sides these days.
John M

climber
Mar 24, 2014 - 01:12pm PT
I believe bookworm has said that he is a high school science teacher. That or math teacher.

to me he is a troll. He wants no conversation. He just wants to irritate. Much like TGT. But conversation probably wouldn't matter because their beliefs are so ingrained that they can't see anything that lays outside of it. Plus there is an element of meanness to them that I don't respect at all. I would do away with their kind of troll if I could. What kind of person posts stuff to try and piss people off? And so that they can feel superior.. Dr. F has some of that element too, but he will at least talk to you.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Mar 24, 2014 - 01:34pm PT
Wow Mad, you write so much more,...ummm, Christian....than many we read/hear or are otherwise exposed to currently.

Thank you.

My problem is that I feel sort of split between two worlds. I am Christian, but I hate mainstream Christianity. I read Christianity Today each month, and mostly I finish each issue discouraged and thinking, "So confused."

I have served in very high ranking positions in two different global denominations, most recently as the Executive Director of one. Yet I resigned when the board (illegally) decided to protect a former board member who, now as a local pastor, basically ripped off the organization for almost half-a-million dollars, lied about it (of course), and then instructed me to do nothing about it. My lawyer informed me that to do nothing would be a violation of my own legally-mandated fiduciary duties and that I had best resign, which I did. I relate this to say that I have seen the sickness in Christianity first-hand and at a level that few ever do. And I am sickened by it!

Then, when you consider the damage done politically....

Palin is the best LMCs can do, and LMCs LOVE her! And the primary system ensures that ONLY someone claiming to BE an LMC can get the Republican nomination. But such an individual is not mainstream-electable, so the nominee then spends all the time between the primary and the general election trying to undo the image they created to get the nomination in the first place!

Here's another example. Kerry would have almost certainly been a better president than Bush (well, a chimp would have been better). However, in one of the last debates, he was asked from the floor of the audience what his stand on abortion was: "Senator Kerry, you are a staunch Catholic, yet you have publicly said that you support Roe vs. Wade. How can you reconcile those positions?"

Kerry responded with one of the most sensible and nuanced statements on the subject I have EVER heard from a Christian: "Yes, I am a staunch Catholic. But in this country we value a separation between church and state, and we don't impose any sectarian 'morality' on the public via legislation. So, I am personally opposed to abortion, but in my public role as President I would not legislate against it, because I believe that the arguments against it are specifically Judeo-Christian, and we don't base our laws on such positions."

I watched that debate and went, "WOW! If I had NO other reason for voting for Kerry, that just sealed the deal." But the next day the Seattle Times (typically liberal-democrat) ran a front-page article, the headline of which read: "Kerry Waffles on Abortion." And the rest is history.

Now we have the Patriot Act, INSANE levels of spending started by Bush and blithely continued by Obama, invasions into our personal lives that we could not have imagined just a decade ago, and the litany goes on and on!

And rather than being a SANE, moderate voice in all of this, LMCs have become increasingly shrill, entrenched, and CAUSING yet more problems (as I've just scratched the surface of).

If Christianity would get off of this LMC kick, it could be a valuable and even credible contributor to the public dialog. But as it stand now (and is ever increasing), ALL we get is sickness, dogma, and Palins.

GAG!
yedi

Trad climber
Stanwood,wa
Mar 24, 2014 - 01:46pm PT
Credit: yedi
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 22, 2014 - 06:15am PT
the thrill of motherhood:

"Suddenly I was pregnant and I could get free dental work on the NHS, so I got a tooth straightened for cosmetic reasons, and it all seemed great."


the agony of the unborn:

“An abortion will further my career. This time next year I won’t have a baby. Instead, I’ll be famous, driving a bright pink Range Rover and buying a big house. Nothing will get in my way.”


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/video-josie-cunningham-plans-abortion-3434350



miranda: oh, brave new world that has such people in't

prospero: 'tis new to thee


glanton

Social climber
Pangaea Ultima
Apr 22, 2014 - 06:22am PT
Credit: glanton
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 22, 2014 - 07:05am PT
Credit: philo
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Apr 22, 2014 - 07:53am PT
A good couple of pages gentlemen and if it was a competition, I'd say Mad bolter got a Hat trick! That was really well stated. Hookworm, as usual we're sending you back to the farm team for another season of work.

This was good too:

a fetus is just like a diseased liver to a hospital, it all goes in the trash
The trash just happens to get burned, and the steam produced heats the building
Sounds like a good use of human tissue to me.

Although a bit drastic in imagery, and possibly not necessary in the sense that all those who think otherwise can go burn some incense any time in order to preserve the sanctity of their belief on life, it really is just another dust to dust scenario. To now make the giant leap that this is no diferent than the crematoriums of the nazi's is as fantastic a test of logic as virgin birth.

Anyway if you can't stand torching a feutus, what about a liver? Or a brain? Or a spinal column? Or a leg? Or a booger? or your sperm?



Ah.... I get it. If you burn a Booger God is cool with that. If you burn a Sperm well, God gets quite Irate. It is written ( somewhere they say ) and Is not for us to question.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 23, 2014 - 04:28pm PT
Anyway if you can't stand torching a feutus, what about a liver? Or a brain? Or a spinal column? Or a leg? Or a booger? or your sperm?

That's a pretty disgusting lack of humanity. A fetus has a soul, and no choice in the matter.
glanton

Social climber
Pangaea Ultima
Apr 23, 2014 - 04:31pm PT
Until it's born then your kind is more than willing to rid themselves of said fetuses.
Best to make all suffer for your convictions.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 23, 2014 - 04:40pm PT
A fetus has a soul, and no choice in the matter.

Well, that's a profoundly contentious claim. Indeed, it's one way of stating THE contentious claim.

So, do you just "know" this somehow, or do you have actual reasons for thinking that your claim is true?

Would you care to enlighten those of us that have not yet tumbled to the reasons? And I'm not asking for "empirical evidence," as that itself might well "load the game," so to speak. I'm asking for ANY evidence! Care to quote Scripture, for example?

I'm sincerely curious how it is that SO many are SO confident in that claim, but they are also SO slow to offer actual reasoning to sustain it.

I'll even load the game ENTIRELY in your favor and grant what is likely your base premise that the Bible is THE authoritative basis for moral facts.

Even then, with the game SO loaded in your favor (or load it however you please; I'm game), PLEASE explain how you get from "there" to the truth of your claim.

If we could even get clear about THIS, it just might be possible to have a gap-bridging discussion.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 23, 2014 - 05:06pm PT
MB, let's start with my thought that all living beings in the fish/animal world have souls. That does not mean they are all 'good' souls. Some have grown rotten, despite always starting pure and innocent.

I have no proof of the presence of a soul. The only thing I have is that all life is born in innocence. As we wander through life, our soul either expands (good) or retracts (evil).

This can be evidenced by the nature of certain people. Some are inherently good inside, others can be the most rotten SOBs you've ever met. I think this is the soul on display, not just 'personality' or 'mental state'.

Once a baby starts to form in the womb, it moves and recent scans of babies in the womb clearly show interaction with Mom and emotions. They have a soul at that point IMO.

But when did they acquire that soul? I would gather that it happens at conception, or very, very soon thereafter.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 23, 2014 - 05:13pm PT
Sully, did you hear about the story he's referencing? The gal in the UK that was going to get an abortion just so she could be a reality TV star?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 23, 2014 - 05:30pm PT
That's fair enough, Sully. I'll let Bookie defend himself.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 23, 2014 - 06:58pm PT
Thank you for your answer, Bluering. I'm not sure I understand your perspective yet, though. Given your perspective of souls, it seems that more is included than excluded, so I'd like to hear your exclusions.

For example, does a single skin cell have a soul? I'm NOT being specious with this question. If all living things have souls, then which among living things do not have a soul? How would lines be drawn between soul-things and non-soul-things?

Thank you in advance! And, yes, booky has a mountain to climb to "defend" his/herself.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 23, 2014 - 07:12pm PT
MB, A single cell organism would not have a soul. It's a cell, not a 'being'.

Only when a life is created, is a soul produced to represent that life. It is the life's inner being. The Hindus have much written upon this. I think the Buddhists too.

The Christian church lets it lie much more Biblically. But I think we are all referring to the same thing. Just different angles.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 23, 2014 - 07:23pm PT
Only when a life is created, is a soul produced to represent that life

Are single cell organisms alive?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Apr 23, 2014 - 07:28pm PT
Philo, like plants, they are "alive", but IMO they are soul-less. Did you read my previous post?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 23, 2014 - 10:46pm PT
MB, A single cell organism would not have a soul. It's a cell, not a 'being'.

Only when a life is created, is a soul produced to represent that life.

Thank you again for your clarification, Bluering! Much appreciated.

Would you mind more clarification? I ask because I'm still not seeing the connection between your "inhuman" comment upthread and this further clarification on your part.

LMCs insist that the "person" exists at the moment of conception. They, of course, draw "the line" here in order to avoid paradoxes of ambiguity. However, your account thus far seems ripe for application of such paradoxes.

For example, if a single cell has no soul, then at the moment of conception a fertilized cell has no soul. If the cell divides (in the first step on its path toward becoming a full-blown "person" with a full-blown soul) does it then have a soul?

If you say "no, not yet," then one wonders how many cells it takes to achieve "soul status." If you say "yes, it is now multicelled," then one wonders why there is a sudden and qualitative distinction that occurs between one and "at least two" cells.

If you claim that somewhere between two and "many" cells the "soul status" is achieved, then you are solidly in paradox of ambiguity terrain, and any "resolution" of that paradox will be arbitrary (and hence, not really sustaining your "inhuman" accusation).

Furthermore, at first you seemed to conflate "alive" with "having a soul," but you most recently seem to distinguish between these statuses. But your present distinction still seems murky to me, because, as I say above, I'm not clear exactly WHAT features of an entity give it "soul status," and I'm confident that you don't think it is entirely a numerical (number of cells) metric!

I hope my line of questioning is clear. I'm just not sure what, on your view, gets a fetus any particular moral status and how that status is attained when the fertilized cell doesn't have it but somewhere along the development the fetus does have it.

In short, what are the morally-relevant features of a fetus that give it "soul status?"

Thank you again!
The Chief

climber
The Land of the Mongols above Bishop
Apr 23, 2014 - 10:54pm PT
I would never FORCE one of my daughters to give birth to the child of an irresponsible man who wanted to f*#k with no birth control, but then refused to follow up as a father.

Of course she/they had absolutely no say or choice in allowing that evolution to take place.

If that were the case, that would then be rape.


If she/they did, have the choice and say in the matter, then they are just as responsible as is that "irresponsible" man you speak of, for allowing that evolution to take place.

Correct?

bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 24, 2014 - 07:17am PT
"So bookworm. What's your story? Were you unable to get pregnant? If you are male were you unable to get a woman pregnant?"

don't understand the relevance...so only women who are or have been pregnant are permitted an opinion on abortion? are you unable to have sex or were you absent the day they explained both male and female contributions are necessary for pregnancy? do you not understand that 50% of unborn babies are male? are you not aware the majority of abortions around the world kill female babies? why does your concern for women begin only post-partum?

biologically, scientifically, rationally life begins at conception...the soul is not relevant to the argument;i want to save the atheist unborn as much as the faithful unborn and give them all a chance to CHOOSE for themselves

if a woman wants to be pregnant, then she carries a baby (at whatever stage) and a miscarriage (i.e. the body naturally terminating the pregnancy) is tragic...if a woman does not want to be pregnant, then she carries a clump of cells/tissue (at whatever stage) and an abortion (i.e. another person intentionally and unnaturally terminating the pregnancy) is a "right"...please, explain, sully

"More significantly, why pose as an English teacher? You quote my Bible, The Complete Works of Shakespeare, out of context. Plus, you hold up the most anti-female dystopian classic to push a women's issue. Good thinking, maestra."

if you actually read shakespeare (rather than just mouthing the words) you would understand the context is appropriate...miranda comments on a group of men she sees for the first time, men we know to be corrupt--these are the same men who abandoned her father, with an infant daughter (oh, maybe a 3-year-old doesn't count as a human, either...), on an island, presumably, to die--her praise of these men is ironic (which, i'm sure, you recongnize since your "bible" is full of examples)

the key, which you miss (not surprisingly), is prospero's response...he recognizes there is nothing "new" about miranda's world, on or off the island; such corruption always has and always will exist and, most often, in beauteous form...he understands his life as duke (and his daughter's life) back in milan will still be fraught with peril


"I'm sure you agree that John the Savage is one crappy Christ figure. How was the brave new world any better after his suicide?"

honestly, it's just such comments that explain why i'm a teacher (and why my job is so often depressing)

of course, john is a failed christ figure...first, he's john NOT jesus; he's either the baptist or the apostle in need of the christ to teach him the truth...shakespeare is a great source for moral teaching, but the morality is incomprehensible without a strong biblical foundation; shakespeare and john's innate morality can take him only so far (like dante's guide; virgil--symbolically, human reason--can take us only as far as earthly paradise; only the love of god can take us to heaven)

the point is, sully, the world is not brave or new; huxley is simply illustrating his own world carried to the extreme (hence, the astute and contextually appropriate allusion)

the point is, sully, this world is NOT "better" after john's suicide; the world is worse because the last good chance the world had to redeem itself is dead, killed by the world he might have saved...sound familiar? that's actually from the real bible


when i started my career 20 years ago, the majority of my students (including a majority of jews, muslims, hindus, buddhists, atheists, etc.) knew the story of jesus and its implications; they didn't believe it, but they understood it...sadly, the opposite is now true...i even have catholic students who don't understand the sacraments and the non-christians have no knowledge/appreciation of the bible at all...but they have an excuse--they're kids
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 24, 2014 - 07:27am PT
america, also, is no longer the new world:

http://www.lifesitenews.com/canadian-aborted-babies-incinerated-in-oregon-waste-to-energy-facility-to-p.html

glanton

Social climber
Pangaea Ultima
Apr 24, 2014 - 07:30am PT
So worried about the un-born but can't be bothered to care for the living.
Did your bible teach you that?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Apr 24, 2014 - 07:30am PT
MB, A single cell organism would not have a soul. It's a cell, not a 'being'.

Only when a life is created, is a soul produced to represent that life. It is the life's inner being.

Um.... ever take a biology class?

DMT
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Apr 24, 2014 - 07:39am PT
Blurring is the finest example of someone who builds his certain belief on a foundation of plausiblity, in support of an idea he likes.

To put it in context, the idea that jet contrails are an organized plot of geo engineering is plausible. If your satisfied with plausibility you conveniently avoid the hard work of probability.

Lazy bastard!

Same goes for you Captain Hook.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 24, 2014 - 08:02am PT
Holy crap!

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 24, 2014 - 08:58am PT
biologically, scientifically, rationally life begins at conception...

Nobody is arguing with you about this point.

THE point that you seem to be missing is that "life" is not the morally-relevant consideration in this debate, because mere "life" fails to explicate any morally-relevant distinction.

Based solely on your "life" statement, you MUST decry the needless slaughter of millions of innocent skin cells I cause whenever I scratch my arm.

But you do NOT decry this slaughter, as well you should not. So YOU recognize that "life" is not the morally-relevant metric here. Thus, you should quit retreating back to that point.

I'll ask you again: What IS the morally-relevant metric?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 24, 2014 - 09:41am PT
I like madbolter more everyday.

The crux to me is the choice and legality issue.

Women have "had" and "created" abortions since almost forever. Abortions will continue to happen, whether they are legal or not.

I do not think women should be forced to carry and give birth to unwanted children.

I do not think women should be forced to have illegal, unsanitary and dangerous abortions.

I do not think women should be made into criminals for having illegal abortions.

Here's a thought Prospero, you don't want women to have abortions? Keep your f*#king dick in your pants.
Byran

climber
San Jose, CA
Apr 24, 2014 - 11:05am PT
I'll ask you again: What IS the morally-relevant metric?

Man, it's almost as if you think morality is some sort of philosophical framework which seeks to increase happiness and mitigate suffering, based on objective truths about sentience, psychology, and the natural world.

But we all know morality is just doing what he bible says you should do.

Like if you strike a pregnant woman and cause her to have a miscarriage, then you should pay a fine to the husband for the loss of property. The problem is all these women are going around getting abortions and the husbands aren't getting their dues!
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 24, 2014 - 01:50pm PT
"So worried about the un-born but can't be bothered to care for the living."

i do care about the living; i don't think the innocent living should be killed, either



"THE point that you seem to be missing is that "life" is not the morally-relevant consideration in this debate, because mere "life" fails to explicate any morally-relevant distinction."

my fault, i assumed everyone understood we're discussing HUMAN LIFE

if there is no argument about when life begins, then what "metric" do you use to determine how long after life begins it's acceptable/moral to terminate life? explain the moral distinction between 6 weeks, 16 weeks, 26 weeks, and 36 weeks...if you agree life begins at conception, explain the moral distinction between in utero and out




"Women have "had" and "created" abortions since almost forever. Abortions will continue to happen, whether they are legal or not."


by that reasoning, you believe we have a "right" to murder, too




"I do not think women should be forced to carry and give birth to unwanted children.

I do not think women should be forced to have illegal, unsanitary and dangerous abortions.

I do not think women should be made into criminals for having illegal abortions."


neither do i; the ONLY difference in our understanding of the issue is that i believe women should make these decisions BEFORE they have sex and not after


"Here's a thought Prospero, you don't want women to have abortions? Keep your f*#king dick in your pants."


EXACTLY! and women should keep their panties on, too


crazy me, i think people should be responsible for their actions; you don't want kids, don't have sex...we're humans, not animals; we can choose to have sex or not; we can comprehend the consequences of our actions; we can live our lives fully, which includes the painful (or inconvenient) as well as the joyful, or we can abdicate our dignity and subjugate ourselves entirely to our passions and hope for someone else to clean up our messes


Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Apr 24, 2014 - 01:57pm PT
neither do i; the ONLY difference in our understanding of the issue is that i believe women should make these decisions BEFORE they have sex and not after

No... no... that's not what you wrote previously. You wrote:
were you absent the day they explained both male and female contributions are necessary for pregnancy?

You want to exert control over womens' reproductive rights. You want to take the decision. We aren't going to let you do that.

DMT
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