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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 9, 2011 - 09:37am PT
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I make no apologies for starting this thread, and I do know the topic has been covered on other threads.
There's no question that the self-inflicted damage the debt ceiling debacle has caused is huge. But to me, it is even larger. I have lost over $35,000 (on paper) the past ten days. Thank you Republicans for playing politics and trying to nail Obama instead of looking after America. And thank you Obama for being weak and capitulating to these scumbags, who only care about their own pockets, the rich, and the powerful corporations and not a jot for the average American.
Those super wealthy people and companies that are supporting the Tea Party nutters, along with a lot of help from Faux News, are driving the Repubs farther right. While there are a number of good Republican politicians, their party is being driven from moderation to the right-wing field, with scant regards for the middle class and working class.
Being a full-time carer, with little help from the Irish government, I cannot afford such losses, but these pricks in Washington just wanted to play games and embarrass Obama, which they succeeded in doing.
The difference between the US and Europe with these crises, is that while some Euro countries that are in trouble and headed for an abyss, are sliding that way with little control.
Whereas in Washington, the politicians walked voluntarily to the edge of the chasm for political reasons, they were not beaten there by the markets. This fiasco, that I primarily blame on the Republicans, but the Democrats had a hand in it, has certainly screwed me, and I am sure many other Americans.
Some can blame Obama, and certainly he must shoulder a small share of the blame, but it was Bush’s policies that led to the mess. Thank you Dubya and Dick. Prison is too good for you arseholes.
I said before the 2008 election, on this forum and elsewhere, that whoever won the POTUS, was going to be left holding a poisoned chalice that was Bush’s legacy. Regardless who won the presidency, they would have inherited the same mess that Obama did, and it certainly is a mess that cannot be cleaned up in one term.
A Poison Chalice Indeed.
A BIG EDIT
Unlike what Russ thinks (read down the thread a bit) I am not crying, I am just angry. There is a hell of a big difference, but perhaps some posters can't see that. But I can only guess that Russ would be happy to lose, even on paper, that sort of money (which was the bulk of my savings/pension). But if some of you think that I am whingeing, think again, or think what you want, that's your choice.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2011 - 09:45am PT
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Come on Jeff, you know it is not that simple, and don't tell me politics had nothing to do with it. Your boys in DC messed up for eight years and now the average American has to pay for Dubya's drunken party and policies.
And you will not convince me any other way. Certainly not with statistics that can be manipulated one way or the other for one's own agenda. Hard facts I will look at, but stats, well, you know the old saying...
...Lies, damned lies and statistics.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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I don't understand those who do not think that getting the debt down is critical. For myself, I've said repeatedly that the Obama tax cuts for the ich (those are the former bush tax cuts for the rich that the democratically controlled house senate and president finagled to extend when they were set to expire -the democrats own that bullshit now) should have been allowed to expire.
I totally understand those who say that if you give the goverment more money, they will just spend it. It's exactly what just occurred here. We are borrowing more and more just to pay regular bills, it can't go on forever. Might as well suck it up and fix it now, but as seen by recent actions, we can't, and thank God we have a few people trying to get our nations debt to be lower anyway.
It's the dems dragging there ass on spending cuts, vs the repubs who want spending cuts because gov't can't be trusted to get spending down. This one is on the democrats buddy.
Where's Bill Clinton when you need him?
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Mangy Peasant
Social climber
Riverside, CA
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Legions of never served Americans endorsed the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq.
DMT, what's with the obsession that someone has to be a veteran in order to have a say in the nation's defence policies?
I am a veteran (First Iraq war - remember the little one?), and I'm against the current wars as much as anyone.
But this guy never was veteran: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_madison
Are my opinions more valid than his?
OP: Markets go up and down. Take you S&P 500 chart and expand it out to a five year period, and calm down. Your investment decisions are your own. Take your lumps like the rest of us.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2011 - 10:06am PT
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"This one is on the democrats buddy"
But Couchmaster, this mess did not start with the Dems, it was well on its way before 2008.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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This Mess accelerated with the 1974 budget act, created by a Democrat Congress that instituted baseline budgeting and guaranteed an annual growth of government of 8% or more, no matter the growth rate of the economy.
What we are seeing is the world wide final failure of Keynesian fantasy.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Couchmaster asked:
I don't understand those who do not think that getting the debt down is critical.
This is a very important question, and is central to almost everything.
First, context matters. One has to look at the economic context. If you have a rocking and rolling economy, and you apply cuts, no problem.
But we don't. We have a troubled economy.
If you go back to when GWB was President, he did something quite amazing, he started two wars, BUT KEPT THEM OFF THE BOOKS, essetially hiding the effects on the budget. When Obama was elected, he brought the wars onto the books, essentially making the wars open and transparent economically, but opening himself to charges by the Repubs of massive spending, as it LOOKED as though he suddenly added to the deficit. HE DID NOT.
So we have this debt problem, as you point out. How can we pay it down?
There are ONLY TWO WAYS: increase revenue, reduce spending. There is NO other way.
If we increase revenue by any method on the middle or lower classes that are struggling to get by, this is a huge burden that will really be felt intensely, right now. Such things as a flat tax, excise tax, user fees, etc. Increasing taxes on the rich will have no such effect, as it will not effect their lifestyle, it is truly painless. It is said that it will inhibit job creation, but that has been convincingly been shown not to be true.
Reducing spending by the gov't seems simple, but what does that translate into? It means either laying gov't workers off, increasing unemployment, or cancelling gov't contract workers, increasing unemployment, or cancelling gov't contracts for goods, causing private companies to increase unemployment: net effect is to increase unemployment.
If you look at the monthly jobs report, this is exactly what has been happening at the state and local level, there has been massive layoffs at that level, as well as layoffs of federal employees.
The beast has been starved. This is what it means to "reduce gov't spending", it means to take people's jobs away.
To do that is a bad economic time, is to make that bad economic time worse, and to make it worse for EVERYONE. That is because people without jobs lose their houses, they don't spend money on goods and services that drive the economic engine, they don't get the economy going again. Starving the economy in bad times is the recipe for extension of recession....except for the rich, who get richer, who acquire more property (which is cheaper), more wealth, who control more of America. They love it.
The Republicans don't mind shooting a hole in the ship and watching the third-class passengers drown, because they figure they've paid for access to the lifeboats on the Titanic, and they've shipped their goods on a freighter.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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The Republicans don't mind shooting a hole in the ship and watching the third-class passengers drown, because they figure they've paid for access to the lifeboats on the Titanic, and they've shipped their goods on a freighter.
Worth repeating.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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"Come on Jeff, you know it is not that simple, and don't tell me politics had nothing to do with it."
oh, the irony...
maybe now you can see clearly the utter simplicity in your opening post
let's see...
who leads the party that controls the senate that has not produced a budget--AS REQUIRED BY LAW--for nearly three years?
who ignored the recommendations of his very own "debt commission"?
who offered a budget in january that INCREASED the deficit?
who offered another budget in march that was defeated in the senate 93-0?
who vowed to veto any bill that included a temporary debt extension and then demanded an extension that would last "THROUGH THE NEXT ELECTION"?
who demanded $400 billion in ADDITIONAL tax increases after boehner agreed to $800 billion in secret and against the wishes of the repub majority in the house?
who refuses to offer any (zero, zip, zilch, none, nada, nunca) specific ideas on how to "reform" entitlements or other spending?
who continues to blame the poor economy on repubs, the tea party, corporate jet owners, the rich, the japanese tsunami, middle east unrest that he helped foment? who refuses to accept any responsibility for the utter failure of his economic policy?
who is attending multiple fund raisers--in the middle of what he calls a "crisis"-- (when he isn't golfing) where patrons are paying $35,000 a plate (btw, who can afford those tickets? ya think, maybe barry has some rich friends?)?
who continues to give waivers to BIG CORPORATIONS and UNIONS to excuse them from the increased costs created by his health care bill that is supposed to reduce our costs? how much you want to bet there's a strong correlation between the people who attend his fund raisers and the people receiving health care waivers?
ok, libs, please, name ONE time in history (all of history) in which raising taxes during an economic decline actually resulted in higher tax revenues and an improvement in the economy? i can name THREE presidents who raised tax revenue by CUTTING taxes: kennedy, reagan, bush
yes, give the gov more money and they will spend it; they will NOT pay off the debt; they will NOT reserve it for entitlements that already have TRILLIONS in unfunded liabilities; they will NOT help the poor, improve education, reduce health care costs, or protect the children...the history of just the last hundred years is proof
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
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re: God's party
Yet not one mention so far of the Republican voters who live in trailers who vote Republican because it's God's party. Look no further than Michele Bachmann who cites God in just about every sentence.
The devil's in the details. Who puts the Repub professionals in office to begin with. The American people starting with my own aunt and uncle.
Stop letting the embrace of Christianity fly through under the radar. Correct identification of the problem is often half the solution.
.....
And though it pains me to say, if for chrisakes, you are a Dem and believe in God then start working that into your side's narrative. And maybe you too will get some traction.
God and Country.
God and Love and Peace.
God and the Helping Hand.
What would Jesus do?
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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If this was 1932 Fatrad would be a Jew for Hitler.
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apogee
climber
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"This Mess accelerated with the 1974 budget act, created by a Democrat Congress..."
Well, if that budget act ultimately resulted in a budget surplus like we had in the 90's, then bring it on.
Which party turned that record-breaking surplus into a record-breaking deficit? Hmmmmmm?
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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The Republicans don't mind shooting a hole in the ship and watching the third-class passengers drown, because they figure they've paid for access to the lifeboats on the Titanic, and they've shipped their goods on a freighter.
Worth repeating a second time!
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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look at how well everyone was doing during the Bush presidency 2002 - 2007, low unemployment, low interest rates, rising stock market, record home ownership.
Bush and his cronies (including some Dem accomplices) built a bubble that was bound to pop with artificially low interest rates. The record home ownership was due to many people who should not have been owning homes buying them using sub-prime mortgages.
This is what created the Great Recession.
Bush also ran up record deficits so when the Great Recession did occur the federal government was financially insolvent and almost powerless to help.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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There's no question that the self-inflicted damage the debt ceiling debacle has caused is huge. But to me, it is even larger. I have lost over $35,000 (on paper) the past ten days. Thank you Republicans for playing politics and trying to nail Obama instead of looking after America. And thank you Obama for being weak and capitulating to these scumbags, who only care about their own pockets, the rich, and the powerful corporations and not a jot for the average American.
Those super wealthy people and companies that are supporting the Tea Party nutters, along with a lot of help from Faux News, are driving the Repubs farther right. While there are a number of good Republican politicians, their party is being driven from moderation to the right-wing field, with scant regards for the middle class and working class.
Word.
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apogee
climber
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'Farce?' fattrad, the money was real.
You guys always retort against the 90's budget surplus statement with your 'yeah, but Clinton just inherited a good situation'. Why don't you extend the same consideration to Obama? (as a bad situation)
Whatever. The fact is that, however or whoever was Clinton's predecessor, or whatever conditions were present during that time, he left office with a massive surplus. The next president, no matter R or D, had the responsibility to manage that condition- and Shrub did it his way. The disastrous way.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Obama inherited a AAA rating.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Fattrad I'm NOT a liberal I am a capitalist.
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apogee
climber
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fattrad (& TGT), look- I think I understand the gist of your position on economic policy, and how Obama should have handled the Shrub-disaster in a less Keynesian manner. The argument towards directing 'stimulus' at private business instead of gov't programs has elements of logic to it, to be sure.
What leaves me incredulous is how you, or any other rational American, would believe that the Republican Party possesses the ability to implement true conservative economic principles any longer. When Reagan ran wild with spending, you might have been able to rationalize it away as a one-time deal. But such mega-spending and economic irresponsibility has become the very nature of the Republican Party.
How or why in the world should anyone believe that a Republican POTUS would have done any better on 1/20/09, or will be able to fix this any better in 2012?
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Seems like we have the Republicans to thank, and the Democrats, and ourselves. We, collectively, elected Bush 43, and twice no less. We, collectively, want more goods and services from the government than we want to pay for. Our politicians and the titans of Wall Street have lied to us and sold us a bunch of BS, and we believed all of it it because we wanted to.
We've gotten the government, and the debt, and the economy we deserve.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Patrick: But to me, it is even larger. I have lost over $35,000 (on paper) the past ten days.
Quit watering down your soup with tears. So you are out 35k on paper, which is about two months salary for most people I know. BFD. See those boot straps down there? Grab 'em and pull. Besides, you only had the $$$ on paper too. It is not like a rat got into your retirement mattress and started mowing the greenery.
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jstan
climber
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Please to note Locker has threatened only Jeff's donut supply. No mention has been made of the much more important twinkie availability.
http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/10/27_lakoff.shtml
Everyone needs to read the link HFCS posted.
It makes clear what is behind both the writings of the right wing droids, and their self evident glee.
The development of this technology and the education of droids in it cost money, much money that was supplied by forces intending to
make more money.
A recent LA Times article suggests there is hope however. The corporations are beginning to think our lowered ability to pay now makes it more profitable to manipulate people in other nations.
There are chickens that can be put in cages outside of the US.
The wonders of capitalism.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-consumers-overseas-20110808,0,6537651.story
For years, U.S. companies went off shore to get cheaper labor and lower manufacturing costs for products to be sold to Americans. Now, as the nation's economy stalls and personal incomes stagnate, they see consumers in Asia and Latin America as offering brighter prospects for future sales and profits.
In effect, as many corporate executives look ahead, the United States has a diminishing place in their thinking.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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A downgrade’s GOP fingerprints
Eugene Robinson,
Published: August 8
The so-called analysts at Standard & Poor’s may not be the most reliable bunch, but there was one very good reason for them to downgrade U.S. debt: Republicans in Congress made a credible threat to force a default on our obligations.
This isn’t the rationale that S&P gave, but it’s the only one that makes sense. Like a lucky college student who partied the night before an exam, the ratings agency used flawed logic and faulty arithmetic to somehow come up with the right answer. No, life isn’t always fair.
And no, I can’t join the “we’re all at fault” chorus. Absent the threat of willful default, a downgrade would be unjustified and absurd. And history will note that it was House Republicans who issued that threat.
There is no plausible scenario under which the United States would be unable to service its debt. If political gridlock were to persist, our government would be able to pay bondholders with a combination of tax revenue and funds raised by selling more Treasury bills. And in the final analysis, as Alan Greenspan noted Sunday on “Meet the Press,” the United States “can pay any debt it has because we can always print money to do that.”
I know this kind of talk is horrifying to Ron Paul and others who believe we should be walking around with our pockets full of doubloons, but most of us find paper money more convenient.
What happened this summer is that Republicans in the House, using the Tea Party freshmen as a battering ram, threatened to compel a default. More accurately, they demanded big budget cuts as the price of raising the debt ceiling. If the Senate and President Obama did not comply, the Treasury’s access to capital through borrowing would have been cut off.
The government’s cash flow would have been slashed by 40 percent, leaving not nearly enough to fund essential operations, pay entitlements and also service the debt. Somebody was going to get stiffed. Paying interest to bondholders could have been given priority over competing obligations such as salaries for our people in military service and Social Security checks for retirees. But for how long?
Ultimately, the GOP got its spending cuts — some of them, at least — and the debt ceiling was raised. But the possibility of default, never before more than a fantasy, had been made real. There’s no way to un-ring that bell. This new uncertainty, it seems to me, is enough to justify lowering the credit rating of our long-term debt from AAA to AA-plus.
S&P, however, gave a host of largely bogus reasons for its action. Why am I not surprised? This is a firm that aided and abetted the subprime crisis — and the devastating financial meltdown that ensued — by giving no-risk ratings to dodgy securities based on mortgages that should never have been written. The firm’s credibility is spent, as is that of the other ratings agencies, Moody’s and Fitch.
Initially, S&P pinned the downgrade on the sheer size and weight of the mounting federal debt. Treasury officials noticed that S&P had made an error in its calculations, overstating the debt burden by a whopping $2 trillion. This discovery negated the ratings firm’s rationale — so it simply invented another.
Instead of basing its argument on economics, S&P made an ill-advised foray into political analysis. In its “revised base case scenario,” the firm assumed that all the Bush tax cuts will remain in place past their scheduled expiration at the end of next year — even for households making more than $250,000 a year. But Obama vows not to let this happen, and S&P apparently fails to understand that after the election he will be in the strongest possible position to stand firm.
“A new political consensus might (or might not) emerge after the 2012 elections,” S&P noted. Gee, that’s helpful.
The ratings agency should have focused instead on the one development that has direct bearing on our creditworthiness: the GOP threat to force a default. House Majority Leader Eric Cantor should never have planned to use the debt ceiling vote as “leverage.” Obama should have made clear from the start that if necessary he would take unilateral action, based on the 14th Amendment, to ensure there could never be a default. And yes, progressive Democrats who voted against the final debt-ceiling bill should be ashamed.
It’s pretty simple: If you threaten not to pay your bills, people will — and should — take you seriously.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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S & P is controlled by Republicans. Republicans are out to destroy America so they can feed on the carcass.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2011 - 12:54pm PT
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Russ, I am not watering down anything, crying tears or looking for comfort, I am just pissed off. Period. And I wondered how long it would take somebody to post what you did.
Look it dude, mine are not tears, they are f*cking anger. And then to have people like to you, apparently, try to stick up for the politicos, just takes the cake.
Or did I read your post incorrectly?
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apogee
climber
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Losing $35K 'on paper' when you have a mid-6 digit yearly income is a bummer, but not much more.
When your income is like the majority of middle-lower class America, whether it's on paper or not, it hurts like hell.
The fecked up thing is that most people who lose out big on those investments have been practicing exactly what the contemporary economic system told us to do: work hard, buy a home, and invest in the stock market to supplement your SS. Ironically, while the Repugs were the loudest about this financial strategy, they've been working just as hard to support the ability of banks & corporations to take that opportunity away.
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Dr. F, it's not just the Republicans. For example 82 dem members of the house and 73 dem members of the senate voted for the idiotic Iraq War Resolution in October of 2002. If they had not done so we would have saved 4 trillion dollars and more importantly countless lives.
Also dems voted with republicans, and dem Pres Bill Clinton signed into law the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act in 1999, which is directly responsible for the 2008 financial meltdown and is also in large part responsible for the debt and dismal economy we have today.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2011 - 01:20pm PT
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Apogee, I wish I had a mid-six figure income, but I earned my money through journalism (which doesn't pay well) and other. Now I am a full-time carer, trying to get some work from home while I supervise and take care of Jennie. It ain't easy (toughest thing I have ever done, being a carer). So yeah, that loss hurt. Can I wait for the market to come back? Not when I am relying on what I have, I may have to sell the rest soon and take a big hit. And I am not happy about that.
Would any poster on this thread be happy if they were in the same position? I think not.
But some posters here may think that I am crying in my beer, if only.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Patrick, those of us without reading comprehension difficulties understand your anger and feel for you. Don't let the fish get to you. He is treated like a sacred cow here and thinks his sh#t don't stink. Actually he is a callous little prick. If, as he says, most of his friends are making $17,000.00 a month (over $200,000.00 a year) that explains why he doesn't give a sh#t about the real people desperately trying to get by. I respect the struggles you are facing as a carer and commend your effort.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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It's the dems dragging there ass on spending cuts,
Priceless idiocy from the Couchmaster right there. Let's recap, shall we? Prez proposes $3 in cuts for each $1 in revenue and a willingness to cut Dem sacred cows including medicare. GOP says "no new revenue, period!". S&P downgrades US debt SPECIFICALLY citing the GOP not allowing raised revenue.
And your takeaway from that is "dems dragging ass on spending cuts". Unreal.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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The problem isn't specific to one political party. The problem is that no one wants to compromise any more. It is either all or nothing and these days we are getting way too much nothing. So sad.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jstan wrote,
http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/10/27_lakoff.shtml
Everyone needs to read the link HFCS posted.
It makes clear what is behind both the writings of the right wing droids, and their self evident glee.
The development of this technology and the education of droids in it cost money, much money that was supplied by forces intending to
make more money.
Yep, everyone needs to read this guy. He has a lot of good insights. The right is so well programmed that it doesn't seem to matter what the facts are. This guy explains it well and provides some idea of how liberals need to proceed.
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apogee
climber
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To be clear, I'm not saying the Dems policies are the best way to go- Obama's strategy clearly has been ineffective- I'm just clear that the Republican 'alternatives' are so far out there, and their track record is so poor, that you'd have to be either one of the 1% earners, or completely ideologically blinded, in order to go their direction.
Once again, we are stuck with the choice of which pile of sh#t tastes better than the other. The difference is that this time, the conditions and what's at stake seems waaaaaaaay more significant.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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The problem isn't specific to one political party. The problem is that no one wants to compromise any more. It is either all or nothing and these days we are getting way too much nothing. So sad.
This isn't true. Obama offered multiple compromises. The left is just upset because even though he offered compromises, he is still being blamed for every problem america has right now. Just read Fattrads posts for examples of that. We are tired of the bullshit coming out of the rights mouth.
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imnotclever
Sport climber
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So you are out 35k on paper, which is about two months salary for most people I know. BFD.
Most people you know make $210,000 per year? Hawking soft goods is that lucrative?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Most of his friends make over $200,000 a year? Sounds Fishy.
No wonder he morphed from a dirt bag to a tea bag.
Reading comprehension, compassion and math are not his strong suits.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Quoted for prickdom: Philo: Don't let the fish get to you. He is treated like a sacred cow here and thinks his sh#t don't stink. Actually he is a callous little prick. If, as he says, most of his friends are making $17,000.00 a month (over $200,000.00 a year) that explains why he doesn't give a sh#t about the real people desperately trying to get by. I respect the struggles you are facing as a carer and commend your effort.
Most of his friends make over $200,000 a year? Sounds Fishy.
No wonder he morphed from a dirt bag to a tea bag.
Reading comprehension, compassion and math are not his strong suits
Bad day Philo? Make any calls to the FBI lately?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Dude a person could be holding their dying child and you would find a way to mock them. Really class act.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Dude a person could be holding their dying child and you would find a way to mock them. Really class act.
Philo, are you on the verge of new meltdown?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Just FISHing lol.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Are you between jobs? Lot's of posts/noise out of you lately filled with hate. I hope things get better for you in the future. Keep your chin up.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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How do you get that cow to lick your ass Philo? Do you pay extra for that?
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euro-brief-guy
Boulder climber
Auburn, ca
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Nice one Russ!!!111666
"....keep your chin up"
BWAAAHAHAHAHAHA
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Bush wasn't stupid, just doing what he was told.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Would any poster on this thread be happy if they were in the same position? I think not.
If you have managed your personal finances wisely, more power to you.
However, I can say without any qualms what-so-ever that I would be absolutely thrilled to be rich enough to have lost 35k when the DOW fell by ~10%.
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Mangy Peasant
Social climber
Riverside, CA
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He writes you, or involves himself in your life trying to get information on you.
Dang that struck a chord. I just got a PM from fattrad:
Mangy,
I am an RIA. Who did you work for?? A good friend, Mark Edelstone is the Semi guy at Morgan Stanley.
Jeff
Sent by: fattrad Kinda creepy.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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....his tool hand relative to his judgment hand ratio was very f*#ked.
LOL, well told tale Riley.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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So this was the Repubs' fault? Are you people crazy?
The Dems had controlled both houses of Congress and the White House for 2 years. What did they do? The spent over 3 times what Bush did. And according to your saviors, Krugman and Obama, that wasn't enough Federal spending.
That is economic suicide!
Didn't Obama promise that his stimulus packages would create all kinds of private-sector jobs? Bullsh#t.
S&P told us we had to cut 4 trillion over 10 years or face dowgrading. The Repubs wanted that, but the Dems didn't. Who's to blame for the downgrade?
Sometimes compromise isn't good.
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Gene
climber
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Great post, Brother Riley!!!!
g
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Gene
climber
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Seems to me that LEOs went aggro on Riley.
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Gene
climber
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Fattrad,
You're clueless as always.
g
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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So this was the Repubs' fault? Are you people crazy?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Fatty's right. Be nice and cooperative regardless of why you were pulled over and I find things end quicker in a peaceful fashion.
This coming from a long-haired, scruffy-looking, regular drinker. When they ask you if you've been drinking and you have, say yes. They can smell it!
I had one cop have me blow the Breathalizer several time because, "I know you're f*#ked up". I was released.
This whole anti-tool mentality gets you into more trouble than the cooperative manner.
Oblige them. And go about yer business.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Locker, listen to the wise words of a black mayor of Philly trying to get his kids on the right track. See the link above.
He is a wise man with good advice for inner-city youth. Listen after 9:52.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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locker,
was bluering blowing something blue?
just effin with you blue
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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I hear ya locker....
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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The repugs and tea hats have been trying their hardest to make Obama fail ever since day one. They have succeded. Mission accomplished. To bad that those evil small minded people did not seem to appreciate the fact that makeing Obama fail makes our country fail.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Too bad that those evil small minded people did not seem to appreciate the fact that makeing Obama fail makes our country fail.
Obama doesn't need help, Johnson. He failed.
The Tea Party just points out the fact of the matter.
Failed policy = failed country. Thanks for the Hope and Change, you Asshats!!!!
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2011 - 10:01pm PT
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"I would be absolutely thrilled to be rich enough to have lost 35k when the DOW fell by ~10%."
Rich? Jaysus, don't I wish.
When you do not have an income coming in and are a full-time carer, living on your savings and your wits, I don't call that rich. But go ahead and be thrilled, I certainly am not.
If I lost money like that through my own blundering, that would be one thing, but as for myself, and many, many people out there, losing it to white collar crooks, corrupt officials, and politicians who act like imbeciles, that is another thing.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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The main reason for all this crisis is for One reason
The Republicans refuse to raise Taxes
Until they raise taxes, we will be a Fail..
Yeah, taking more of people's money is great in a downturn...That's going to inspire hope and growth?
Give the gov't more money because when they spend it, everything is good???? Didn't Obama the as#@&%e just do that 2 years ago????
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Exactly, Dr F, those who claim to be the biggest patriots, are the greatest traitors to the USA, willing to let it die for the short term profit of a few.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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|
Yeah, taking more of people's money is great in a downturn...That's going to inspire hope and growth?
as far as I know, the only people the dems want to raise taxes on are the super wealthy. The super wealthy have actually done very good recently and aren't experiencing a downturn. So your point is mute.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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So you would rather have failure
than raise taxes to normal levels
You are have No love for America, and Want to starve it of the only thing it needs, money
I call you Anti-American, Treasonous
Normal levels? What is normal? A flat tax?
America doesn't need money. It needs to quit spending so much of it, fool.
It's not a revenue problem.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dr. F. did you read this link provided earlier. It explains Blues problem. In his mind the government has enough money. All that it needs to do is cut programs. His pet cuts would go to programs such as any social welfare. And federal support of education. Any federal involvement in EPA or FDA. Just cut back until all you have is the military. Then you add in Fatties desire to cut social security and medicare and you have the mess that we are in.
http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/10/27_lakoff.shtml
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
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as far as I know, the only people the dems want to raise taxes on are the super wealthy. The super wealthy have actually done very good recently and aren't experiencing a downturn. So your point is mute.
Of course they do, and why? Because they can't control their spending!!!!
They can't take it from anybody else, so as typical Leninists, you bleed the rich. Afterall, they didn't earn anything. Gates and Jobs just happened upon wealth.
You f*#kers will destroy this country and turn us into Greece if we listened to you. You are idiots!!!! And worse, fools who will drag the rest of us down.
You will be stopped. Mark my words. Americans hate socialists.
F*#king pinkos....
EDIT: Thats the Whole F-ing Problem, not enough money, isn't it
Pinko idiot.
Its the Bush Debt, Not the Obama debt
Obama cut spending already
Amazing that you can even function in society with that logic....
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Americans hate socialists.
So you are prepared to privatize the military, the police and the fire departments?
Or are you a f*#king socialist?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
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Blue wrote: Failed policy = failed country. Thanks for the Hope and Change, you Asshats!!!!
Obama wins or doesn't win you are still one of the dumbest f*#ks on the internet.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dr. F. That link I posted wasn't was Blue. You should read it. Its worth it.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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So you are prepared to privatize the military, the police and the fire departments?
Or are you a f*#king socialist?
John, go back and read your Constitution. Those are the few things the gov't is tasked with supporting. I think you left out the 'poor children' in you sob story. Same old crap.
Every time States or the Fed overspend, it's always the same old threats. Teachers, Cops, Firefighters, and poor kids starving in the streets.
Gimme a f*#king break!
There are plenty of food-stamp, welfare, illegal immigrant provisions, and other crap that is a waste. People can and should work!
As far as the military goes? That is one of the few things the Fed should be paying for in moderate amounts of cash. Think about it.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Police and fire departments aren't in the constitution. And they are socialist organization.
F*#king socialist.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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No, John. They are a conscript of the States. One of the powers allowed to the States by the COnstitution.
So. It is up to individual States to fugure out how they will deal with LEO and Firefighters. So is it really a Federal task? No.
If States are failing to support this it is of their own mismanagement. It is not my fault as a taxpayer in one of the most heavily taxed states in the f*#king union.
Whose fault do you think it is? Tell me.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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So you are prepared to do away with the FBI?
How about the EPA?
And the FDA?
Are you going to give up your social security? Its a socialist program?
Speak the truth Blue. No equivocating.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Whose fault do you think it is? Tell me.
Answer my question first, John.
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jstan
climber
|
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"People can and should work!"
Agreed
Now thanks to the 2008 mess we have lots and lots more people who cannot find anyone willing to pay them to work. Let's assume only 10 of them really really can't find work.
What would you do about those 10 Blue?
Give the street cleaners explicit instructions to very gently pick their bodies up off the street once they are dead?
Or maybe just leave them there and let the coyotes eat them? Much cheaper.
You could lay off some of the street cleaners!
On the other hand the people who played central roles in the 2008 mess took home bonuses in the tens of millions of dollars for their excellent work in creating that mess.
Would you suggest those people be tasked with cleaning bodies off the streets?
No charge to the taxpayer!
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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I knew you would equivocate Blue.
You never answer the hard questions.
Would you give up your social security?
What about the FBI?
The EPA?
The FDA?
You ready to end all that?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Mr Stannard, I would invoke a policy of 'renewed American manufacturing'. This idea of outsourcing jobs to Asia and South-Asia started under Clinton, continued strong under Bush, and still continues.
Half of my crew fears for their jobs in 2-5 years.
Create incentives to bring manufacturing back here. Tax breaks and tariffs (if needed).
STOP ILLEGAL HIRING! This is easy if you actually want to do it. And yeah, Bush failed here too.
Plug corporate tax loopholes that allow companies to pay minimal taxes here. Pay up, bitches!
Plug ALL tax loopholes for crafty rich-folk.
Allow only 2 years of welfare before a serious review of job worthiness. Maybe less.
Make sure healthcare is not delivered to illegal immigrants, unless life/death situations are at stake.
Stop illegal immigration. It is killing us in many ways.
EDIT: John, you pussy! Answer the question.
I'll answer yours;
I knew you would equivocate Blue.
You never answer the hard questions.
Oh, I don't? How about you?
Would you give up your social security?
Yes, if I could start diverting funds to a 401K-type plan, which I already have.
What about the FBI?
No. LEO doesn't get cut. The one thing the Fed/State SHOULD be responsible for.
The EPA?
Dead.
The FDA?
Almost dead. Greatly reorganized and downgraded. They are in the pockets of Big-Pharma...
You ready to end all that?
Not only that, but DHS, Dept of Energy, Dept of Education, and more...
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
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Step back from the cactus!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Bluet..Let's keep the tea baggers in the proper light...they are a bunch of paranoid , weasle- like , narcs..They love to partake in the prosperity that is America but spew forth false information that takes the rest of America down...What a bunch of whiny sob's.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
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Have you been partaking as well?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
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Whose fault do you think it is? Tell me.
We could start with lowering taxes while increasing government and starting two wars. That added 5 trillion to the national debt and is still adding debt.
Now answer my questions.
Would you give up social security and medicare?
Would you end the FBI?
Would you end the EPA?
Would you end the FDA?
Would you end the ATF?
If you do? and you try to cover this with the states. How would you pay for it?
And by the way, if you don't end social security, then that would make you a socialist. So which is it?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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See my above post, above the cactus...
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jstan
climber
|
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Half of my crew fears for their jobs in 2-5 years.
That's great Blue. Let's start with your crew being laid off. Here is an interesting plot on taxes.
http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/12/06/chart-of-the-day-u-s-taxes/
The next darker blue is the direct taxation of the corporations as a percentage of GDP while the much larger light blue come from payroll taxes and pensions. The quickest way for a corporation to reduce the light blue area is to lay off workers. If they could lay off all workers in the US that tax would become very small and at least the forward going cost of pensions/401K would go away.
The next darker blue area indicates corporations are paying much less direct tax than ever before. Now if all the corporate profits went directly to stockholders I could buy the argument that taxing both the stockholder and the corporation is double taxation. But the stockholders in fact get next to nothing. Let me make a proposition.
The corporations claim to be a person. Let's tax them as people and maybe reduce that light blue area to compensate. That will lessen the desire to lay off people. Presently we tax capital gains(on stock) at 15%. Suppose we remove the taxes on savings deposits retired people are trying to live on and remove the tax on owning stock. Make up for that with a tax on direct corporate earnings. Before Nixon savings interest was not taxed. If we did that we could do away entirely with that godawful expensive thing we call the IRA. All your savings would earn tax free. They would be the same as a Roth IRA.
When you get ancient and doddery you will find out just what incredible hoops the IRA forces everyone to jump through. It isn't pretty.
thinkaboutit
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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TGT...No partaking other than being on unemployment , SS , welfare , and killing it on the stock market...Now i know what fatty is talking about...!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jstan, what is your point? Be specific.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Taxes are down, but the economy is still in the tank. Thats his point.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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No, John, spending hasn't been cut enough and the debt ceiling raise allows us to continue on a path of economic destruction....
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Moosie...now I know what you are trying to say...Lowering taxes on the higher earners didn't create jobs...And i trusted those rich people..?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Economic destruction...? Burn , burn , burn....
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Blue wrote: Jstan, what is your point? Be specific.
You wouldn't understand specific or not.
Americans and corporations have the lowest tax burden in the last two years. American corporations are holding onto large amount of cash and still haven't hired workers back.
What is it that you don't understand?
You constantly are against the left when you are part of an extreme right wing part of the republican party. You do not represent moderate Americans.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Blue wrote,
They can't take it from anybody else, so as typical Leninists, you bleed the rich. Afterall, they didn't earn anything. Gates and Jobs just happened upon wealth.
So tell me. why have the rich kept getting richer, even when their tax rate was 90 percent? You walk around so afraid of taxing the wealthy a tiny bit more, when their taxes are well below any other first world country and they are still rich.
To whom much is given, much is required.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
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Yes RJ.. the wealthy do not create jobs. Jobs are created by demand. When the people have money, then there is demand. The best way to achieve this is with a strong middle class.
Fatty touted Russ as a great example of a capitalist. But he wasn't rich. He saw a need and decided to try and fill it. He does a good job of filling that need, so he increased the demand for his product, which allowed him to hire others. Those jobs weren't created by the wealthy. They were created by the demand for a product, and then someone deciding to try and fill that demand.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
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jstan
climber
|
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Blue:
You must not have read what I wrote. The tax structure puts a premium on laying people off. Other than taxes and required expenditures for labor the corporation are getting off paying no taxes at all.
How do i get more specific than that? This is an approach you should be interested in if you don't want people all being laid off.
Have you never been involved in a negotiation where you weight several options?
Interesting.
TGT is now shouting his Lakoffisms. In blue yet.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
|
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Aug 10, 2011 - 12:01am PT
|
Blue..the tea baggers are a bunch of co-dependent dupes manipulated by the kochs and other uber-rich americans that con you into voting against raising taxes on them so that you can pay more taxes....kind of like the friend with the big bank account that always forgets his wallet when you go to the liquor store...Why do you continue to believe that the Koch brothers like you...? Fight the power..!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
|
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Aug 10, 2011 - 12:06am PT
|
The rich that sit on their earnings are a drag on our economy...If they won't get off their asses and create jobs then it's time to tax the damnned leeches and let the government create some jobs...
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
|
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Aug 10, 2011 - 12:08am PT
|
Someone please show me where tax breaks for corporations or the ultra wealthy have created new (that means additional) jobs. Cash reserves for those entities are at all time highs. Get a clue.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
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Aug 10, 2011 - 12:10am PT
|
I kinda agree with your premiss, Jstan, and that was what I was talking about earlier.
Close loopholes! Everybody pays their fair share. Regardless.
EDIT:
Blue..the tea baggers are a bunch of co-dependent dupes manipulated by the kochs and other uber-rich americans that con you into voting against raising taxes on them so that you can pay more taxes...
No, they're not idiot! I'm a tea-bagger and I don't support the Koch bros. I support reduced spending and smaller gov't.
Where do you idiots get this crap???
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apogee
climber
|
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Aug 10, 2011 - 12:11am PT
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premise
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
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|
Aug 10, 2011 - 12:13am PT
|
Someone please show me where tax breaks for corporations or the ultra wealthy have created new (that means additional) jobs.
They don't pay them.
Loopholes....
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apogee
climber
|
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Aug 10, 2011 - 12:15am PT
|
"Someone please show me where tax breaks for corporations or the ultra wealthy have created new (that means additional) jobs."
Yeah, I'd like to see that, too- corporations are currently sitting on record levels of cash- and yet, no jobs.
What's up w/ that, Repugs? The system is just like you want it- lowest corporate tax rates in decades, loopholes galore, lax enforcement- and the corporations are HUGE with cash. Still....no jobs. Are you sure you understand economics in 2011?
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apogee
climber
|
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Aug 10, 2011 - 12:18am PT
|
"I'm a tea-bagger and I don't support the Koch bros."
Oh YES YOU DO....!!!
(Whether you know it or not)
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
|
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Aug 10, 2011 - 12:19am PT
|
Bluering...So how do you justify the wasteful pentagon budget that robs the less fortunate Americans of the economic freedom guaranteed in the constitution..? You sound like the great communist Lenin , talking out both sides of your mouth...?
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apogee
climber
|
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Aug 10, 2011 - 12:20am PT
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My bad...you Repugs understand economics in 2011 quite well...it's all about corporate profits, and destroy the middle class (that threatens your corporate profits). Helluva job, Brownie!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 10, 2011 - 12:21am PT
|
Bluering...So how do you justify the wasteful pentagon budget that robs the less fortunate Americans of the economic freedom guaranteed in the constitution..? You sound like the great communist Lenin , talking out both sides of your mouth...?
No, I don't support waste, but I do support the Pentagon's mission. Fix it!
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apogee
climber
|
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Aug 10, 2011 - 12:22am PT
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BOOM!
That was badasssssss!!!!1111666999
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 10, 2011 - 12:24am PT
|
Apogee, the multi-nationals like Apple and GE are exempt, while middle America pays it's dues. That's a problem. Tax shelters.
These are the same people that sell-out our manufacturing to China. Thanks, Assholes!!!!
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Aug 10, 2011 - 12:26am PT
|
Crickets.........
Oh well, Sarah or Michelle will sort it out. Or maybe Mitt....
How about some innovation instead of the same tired crap that hasn't worked for 20 years.
Oh wait, that would require some new ideas.....
Never mind
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kenny morrell
Trad climber
danville,ca
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Aug 10, 2011 - 12:28am PT
|
hi patty! I to lost a ton on paper and that sucks.one problem I see is like you I don't have time to re-coup the older we get the less time we have to gain it back. i hope things are going well for you on the that beautiful island. take care, peace kenny
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 10, 2011 - 12:30am PT
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The jobs ain't coming back. Profits are up and payroll is down. Why would any company want to f*#k with that?
Because if they trade in US dollars and they destroy our economy, they have to succumb to the Yuan and become commies.
That sounds cool for business.....Yeah!!!!!
Maybe I should go into dirt-farming.
EDIT: Have I ever mentioned that I f*#king hate pinkos, AND I F*#KING WARNED YOU IDIOTS ABOUT THIS!!!!!!! GAahhhh!H!H!HH!H!!!!!!!!
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apogee
climber
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Aug 10, 2011 - 12:31am PT
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"...the multi-nationals like Apple and GE are exempt, while middle America pays it's dues. That's a problem. Tax shelters."
My guess is that's only partially true, but that's besides the point- you keep yammering about how high corporate tax rates mean no jobs, yet the current system was created by your POTUS, and has only improved for businesses since he left office...and still, the corporations sit on RECORD amounts of cash, and are not creating jobs.
Worse yet, the banking system your POTUS bailed out (continued by Obama) won't lend to anyone who has less than a 850 credit score and 50% collateral. Your POTUS created this system...how come it ain't workin'?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 10, 2011 - 12:33am PT
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Bush again.......
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jstan
climber
|
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Aug 10, 2011 - 12:36am PT
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Some data upon which I happened.
http://www.heritageinstitute.com/governance/compensation.htm#The_Ratio_of_Average_CEO_and_Worker
This may have a bearing upon how much of a company's earning go to stockholders.
Oh, and Japan's CEO/worker pay ratio is.........................10.
In the US.........................................................................500
But our firms are much better run than Japan's. Just compare the experience between Toyota and, well any US car company. And of course you can't compare car companies of different size.
Toyota is nearly equal to GM's size, even after all recalls experienced by both companies.
Blue doesn't this crunch your cookies a little. You are on the floor making good product according to budget and on time
while your CEO is playing golf and paying billion dollar fines out of your profits
because he got caught with his hand in the cookie jar?
If that comment was to me, US companies are looking at giving Venezuela a USification too. But they won't outsource Venezuelan jobs to you. They will go to Malaysia.
Thanks John. Blue you need to read up on large companies. Due to cost of production electronics manufacture has moved from
US to
Japan to
S. Korea and now is centered in Singapore
Last I heard Viet Nam is trying to take that business.
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apogee
climber
|
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Aug 10, 2011 - 12:38am PT
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The point is, bluering, that no matter if it had been Shrub or Obama, you keep yammering about how high tax rates mean no jobs.
WWWEEEELLLLLLL, the tax system is about as lax as it's been in decades, and corporations have BUTTLOADS of cash. And still....NO JOBS.
That was your party's idea....how come it ain't workin'?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 10, 2011 - 12:40am PT
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Jstan, they don't have big corps in any of those other countries!
Maybe Japan is an exception, but Venezuela???? C'mon, man!
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 10, 2011 - 12:40am PT
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Jstan, don't you know that the wealthy create jobs. We have to pay those CEOs tons of money so they will create jobs. That is capitalism. Anything else is socialism. Just because they do it differently in other countries doesn't make it right.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 10, 2011 - 12:41am PT
|
WWWEEEELLLLLLL, the tax system is about as lax as it's been in decades, and corporations have BUTTLOADS of cash. And still....NO JOBS.
That was your party's idea....how come it ain't workin'?
I already stated it upthread.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
|
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Aug 10, 2011 - 12:41am PT
|
Lets put a label on what the Left's political strategy has morphed into.
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apogee
climber
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Aug 10, 2011 - 12:43am PT
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Bump to get us past cchopper's insipid post.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 10, 2011 - 12:47am PT
|
Jstan, they don't have big corps in any of those other countries!
Maybe Japan is an exception, but Venezuela???? C'mon, man!
based in singapore.. ranked second largest electronics company in the world.
http://www.flextronics.com/about_us/default.aspx
Yep.. you are right. No body else has large corporations. They are are socialist.
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apogee
climber
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Aug 10, 2011 - 12:49am PT
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Don't let facts stop you, blue...keep on sprayin', you droid, you....
Somewhere, the Koch Bros. are smiling down on you...
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jstan
climber
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Aug 10, 2011 - 12:49am PT
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CC has not yet read his pamphlet on Lakoffification from the RNC. Too much reading I expect. Nasty business reading. But it's the comprehension part that breaks the deal.
Rush will cut him a new one and Sarah will make a nasty remark. Then it will all be good in a jiffy.
God help him if Michelle Bachmann is brought in.
Come to think of it we have not seen nearly as much of Michelle as we have seen, over and over again, of Sarah.
Do you suppose something is wrong?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 10, 2011 - 12:55am PT
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It was the US government that created the jobs that pulled us out of the great depression , not the rich as#@&%es that hid behind the shield of phony patriotism...The elite- rich Americans have shown their intentions and those intentions don't include the rest of America...
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 10, 2011 - 12:57am PT
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Telefonica... communications industry. Based in Spain. 80 billion dollars a year.
Yep.. only America has large corportions.
Trafigura.. 79.2 billion a year. Based in Switzerland.
ArcelorMittal.. Steel.. 78 billion a year. Based in Luxembourg. 81st largest corporation in the world.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Aug 10, 2011 - 01:16am PT
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Brazil: Petrobras.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Aug 10, 2011 - 01:22am PT
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Behind everything you Liberals say about corporations is your thieving goal of trying to loot them in some way.
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apogee
climber
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Aug 10, 2011 - 01:26am PT
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 10, 2011 - 01:27am PT
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Amen!
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jstan
climber
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Aug 10, 2011 - 01:48am PT
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Damn! I emailed Corniss the RNC's Composition Guide for Right Wing Utterances. Where do you suppose it got lost?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 10, 2011 - 01:55am PT
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Damn! I emailed Corniss the RNC's Composition Guide for Right Wing Utterances. Where do you suppose it got lost?
LOL
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 10, 2011 - 02:32am PT
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Apparently it got lost somewhere in the Rinos south forty...
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 10, 2011 - 10:04am PT
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These are the same people that sell-out our manufacturing to China. Thanks, Assholes!!!!
These are the same people you vote for time after time. Thanks, as#@&%e.
When the Democrats proposed giving tax breaks to companies that move jobs back to the US, the Tea Party backed Republicans voted it down. Thanks, as#@&%es.
Guess what? No jobs, no economy.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 10, 2011 - 11:00am PT
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We need to fight against the great ideological machine that lacks purpose, lacks integrity, and lacks aligned interests. The first step is to recognize our own place in it. If we believe that our problems are all due to the Tea Party, or Obama, or corporate power brokers, or liberals, then we're lacking the integrity necessary to reach any goal. -- Dylan Ratigan
If you think it's either the Repugs or the Demolitions, then you're not looking very close.
Dylan goes on the Rant of Rants. Man, I wish I could articulate once in my life like this:
I'm Mad As Hell. How About You?
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Aug 10, 2011 - 11:27am PT
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from barry's speech on monday:
"We didn’t need a rating agency to tell us that we need a balanced, long-term approach to deficit reduction. That was true last week. That was true last year. That was true the day I took office..."
[he took office over 900 days ago]
"I intend to present my own recommendations over the coming weeks on how we should proceed."
so, he claims to have known that the deficit was a problem on the "day he took office" and, now, THREE YEARS LATER he "intends" to make some "recommendations" on how to address the problem "over the coming weeks"???
what is the source of barry's fecklessness?
a) incompetence
b) inept speech writers
c) a malfunctioning teleprompter
d) the tea party, the vast right-wing conspiracy, racism, george bush, the japanese tsunami, the media, etc.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 10, 2011 - 11:31am PT
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Corporations, or any business for that matter don't pay taxes.!
They only are forced to collect them from customers or stockholders.
The broken window fallacy rears its head again.
Plenty of Mondors resident here.
http://www.econlib.org/library/Bastiat/basEss1.html#n2
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Aug 10, 2011 - 11:49am PT
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Some of you guys can't even speak without insulting others who have equally valid viewpoints. And you want more from your Senators and Congressmen? Good luck. I agree with DMT upthread.
The only thing the Dems (Obama) and Repubs haven't done regarding trade with China, is to insist that the Yuan float freely. That might bring a few jobs back to the US> Not accurate Fattrad. Hillarys first overseas trip as Secretary of State was to China was billed in the press as done to convince them of allowing the Yuan to float. The Chinese have bumped it a few notches very slowly and methodically. So here's the question: after a 5 month hiatus as a net seller of US bonds and buying none (while the fed bought so many that they became the largest holder of US debt in the world), the Fed quit buying as QE2 ended in June. On June 16th the Chinese unexplainably jumped back in and purchased some more. I see these as more than random coincidences.
What did the US government offer for inducement to the Red Chinese to buy bonds and keep the Fed from derailment? Watch the pending sale of F16s to Taiwan and lets see if that was on the table.
Todays China trade export newz: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14471412
"10 August 2011 Last updated at 06:14
China's trade surplus jumps 41% as exports gather pace
China's trade surplus surged in July as exports gathered pace despite concerns of a slowdown in the global economy. Shipments from the mainland grew by 20.4% in July from a year earlier, according to China's customs agency. Imports grew by 22.9%, resulting in a trade surplus of $31.5bn (£19.3bn), up from $22.3bn in the previous month. Analysts said the bigger-than-expected surplus will once again see the focus shift to China's currency policy. China's trading partners have accused it of keeping the value of its currency low, making its good cheaper to foreign buyers, in a bid to boost its export sector."
To me, it appears that the US is intentionally trying to lower the value of the US Dollar to shake the export imbalance issue off and gain parity and balance with the Chinese again, but like a tick on a dawg, the Chinese aren't letting go.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 10, 2011 - 01:11pm PT
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"In other legal news, polygamist leader Warren Jeffs was sentenced to life plus twenty years, effectively ending his bid for the Republican presidential nomination."
I have an admission to make that will cause my ejection from ST.
I did not come onto the Borowitz report unassisted. A fellow grad student from years gone by has a ferocious good sense of humor and he publishes by email once a week. It was through Paul that I first saw this report.
Now it is spreading like a tsunami.
In the end, it will be the return of good humor that will save our country.
Jeff's question is even funnier.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 10, 2011 - 01:47pm PT
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A flat tax sounds counter intuitive, but it works rather well in the countries that have them.
So..our attempts at a progressive tax do not really work that well.
the flat tax only works well because they did away with loopholes. No write offs. Thats is also how you fix a progressive tax. No write offs. If you did that, you could also reduce the tax rate because effectively right now, the wealthiest people are only paying about 15 percent.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 10, 2011 - 03:03pm PT
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Why don't Republicans, teabaggers and right-wingers generally have a sense of humour? Is it part of their personality disorder?
I except Fatty, who has a sense of humour, but is in fact working undercover for the DNC, discrediting the RNC.
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apogee
climber
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Aug 10, 2011 - 03:55pm PT
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"Once again, the 90's surplus was a momentary glimpse of fiction. "
Even if that's true, fattrad, the fact remains is that those economic conditions, however they originated, resulted in a record-setting surplus. That surplus was very, very real.
It was the responsibility of the incoming POTUS to manage that surplus. He did. He pissed it away in tax breaks and two questionable, relatively pointless wars. He could have chose otherwise, but he didn't. He went on a spending spree that made Reagan's tenure look like child's play, and when he left office, we were teetering on depression. You can keep your head buried in the sand, but that history will remain.
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apogee
climber
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Aug 10, 2011 - 05:35pm PT
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How'dja like to have THIS waiting for you in your mailbox this week...
It was kinda like realizing there's a rattler square in front of me...
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 10, 2011 - 06:58pm PT
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Bush and Cheney didn't see the bubble
Yet you defended them over and over and over.
Most of my friends saw the bubble. We talked about it on this forum.
You even defended the tax cuts, which were a crime if we were going to increase spending by starting two wars.
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Gene
climber
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Aug 10, 2011 - 07:04pm PT
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Jeepers, Fattrad. How many times are you gonna post that link with your name in the paper?
Under/Over bet... # of Fattrad CC Times link posted versus times Fattrad actually drove the cop car. I'm going with more CC Times links posted.
Bush and Cheney didn't see the bubble, very few of us did.
Bush, Cheney and Fattrad. Three blind mice.
g
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Gene
climber
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Aug 10, 2011 - 07:19pm PT
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I didn't see the bubble. It was nigh invisible.
Not here in California's Central Valley. Before the peak of the single family residential market in Stanislaus County, measured both by median price and # of sales, only 2% of Stanislaus County residents could afford the median price home. Red flag?
g
EDIT: Should read households rather than residents.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 10, 2011 - 07:23pm PT
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I don't understand how people missed it. Karl and I and Gene talked about it on this forum multiple times. It sure seemed obvious to us. Everything was overheated. It had to crash. We especially talked about it based on the flipping market in florida. that was just crazy and unsustainable.
Edit: Yep.. Riley and others saw it too. Healy saw it and others. We all talked about it here on this forum.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 10, 2011 - 07:33pm PT
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TGT, it is encouraging, that you seem to be a reader of Bay Windows, which touts itself as "New England's Largest GLBT Newspaper",but really...just...stop. You make yourself look beyond stupid EVERY time you twiddle your little typing fingers and gurgle your nonsense into cyberspace. I've never encountered anyone of your advanced age that still manages to sound like a 12 year old boy.
"coming to Bachman's defense on the doctored cover photo."
Doctored? Do you understand what the term "doctored" means? Running an unflattering, unaltered photo does not equal "doctoring". Did you even read the link you posted as some kind of "support" for your whining? It destroys your entire argument.
It's just painfully sad to see someone who isn't even cognizant of their own stunning stupidity. So please, just stop already.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 10, 2011 - 07:35pm PT
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I didn't see the bubble. It was nigh invisible.
The California insolvency bar certainly did. We sold our house in 2004, and rented until last year. I also included the bursting of the bubble and the likely downturn in my economic forecasts when the "consensus" forecast was for continued growth. I undershot the extent of the downturn, and particularly how slow the recovery would be, when I first made my forecast in 2004, but compared with others at the time, mine was exceedingly pessimistic.
BASE104, one reason states have balanced budget rules is that they cannot print money (although California has tried for years). The federal government has no such limitations, and I believe it would be foolish to deprive the government of fiscal policy as a tool for ameliorating downturns.
The real problem isn't short-term. It's a long-term promise that cannot be kept if decreasing numbers of workers and savers are supporting increasing numbers of non-workers and dis-savers. That's why that "vocal minority" is screaming so loudly about entitlement programs. Their inherent unsustainability is sending much of western Europe into a tailspin that we should not want to follow.
John
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 10, 2011 - 07:35pm PT
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That was just the quickest link to a story that's been around for a couple of days now.
Newsweek is pretty pathetic.
No wonder it's failing along with Time, the NYT and LAT.
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Gene
climber
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Aug 10, 2011 - 07:44pm PT
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I did a thirty minute interview and he trimmed just a bit, bwahahahahaaha.
Glad to hear the reporter has a BS filter. 30 minutes turned into 5 lines.
You should buy him dinner as thanks for getting that much press.
g
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Aug 10, 2011 - 07:51pm PT
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spot on PATRICK.
Fattrad, you are so afraid of the truth. they will bring down Obama at all cost- those were Mitch McConnell's words..and in doing so the US with them/us..
f tards..
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Aug 10, 2011 - 07:52pm PT
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fattrad, we gave you your tax cuts when Bush was elected and he BUSTED the economy 8 years later. then you got 2 ore years of those cuts. where are the jobs? where is the rebound except @ the top 1%
f tards..
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 10, 2011 - 08:03pm PT
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Tax cuts help the economy, just the dollars in hands that have a higher velocity of spending.
The economy was fine when Bush first took office. He started two wars, built the largest federal department, growing the government considerably, and didn't pay for it. That is terrible because it puts the burden on our children.
Plus the economy was overheating anyway, which means the tax cuts helped create the bust. Think about that one.
...
Base, yes a flat tax is simple. But so is a graduated tax if there are no loopholes or write offs. A graduated tax is more fair to the poor.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 10, 2011 - 08:06pm PT
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The issue is why they were out of control or if they were in control why were they so grossly negligent.
Deregulation, plus undermining the regulatory commission. Clinton signed some of the deregulation which was written by the republicans. Then bush sent it over the edge by undermining the regulatory commissions. Much like he didn't step in with federal oversight when California was being raped by the energy companies.
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Gene
climber
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Aug 10, 2011 - 08:28pm PT
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Riley,
I'm so happy that Fattrad could use his influence with law enforcement and pull strings for you to get the tooling dismissed.
Bwahahahahaha
g
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 10, 2011 - 08:58pm PT
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That's a total lie.....you f*#king lying sack of sh#t...
The pig follows me on my ass from the lodge to just west of camp 4..
I didn't cross any lines....your just stupid....
I've driven from Tennessee to Cali in a day and a half and regularly drive 24 hours straight while tired.
Just shut up fattard.......your a liar and a idiot and you don't even know what your talking about.
and you wonder why they tool you? ROTFLMAO!
Riley,
I apologize, I took "swerving on the road" to mean an occasional over the line, but that may not be the case.
The evil one
fatty! you never were a true tool! otherwise you would have gotten your night stick out! WTF?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 10, 2011 - 10:48pm PT
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say this as someone who opposed his presidency — for precisely the weaknesses that some of his supporters are finally admitting have always existed — but who wants the best for her country, and frankly for The American President. I am concerned about Obama. The guy I saw yesterday seemed barely in control of himself — he seemed angry, frustrated and terribly frightened — like a lightweight who had been thrown into a heavy-weight competition and knew he’d survived this long on luck and kindness, and was anticipating the bell which, this time, would force him to either fully engage or get knocked out.
Hence the deepening of his bunker mentality. The longer he can stay in the corner, huddled with his team, the longer he puts off facing that bell.
Well, the bell is striking. He’s going to have to either pull up his trunks and engage, or we all go down for the count. Forfeiting is not the option of champions.
http://www.patheos.com/community/theanchoress/2011/08/09/obama-the-aching-void/
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 10, 2011 - 11:13pm PT
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Aug 10, 2011 - 07:01pm PT
WE All SAW the Bubble coming, and knew it was about to Burst
Yet the Republicans in Power decided to lie to us, and say
"The foundations of the economy are SOUND"
Last time I checked the Constitution, the House originates all revenue measures, and Congress determines the budget. The president can only sign or veto.
In 2007, the Democrats had majorities in both the House and the Senate, so please explain again how the Republicans were in power when the bubble burst.
As an aside, the US economy remains fundamentally sound. Its gathering and sharing, on the other hand, is fundamentally unsound.
John
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Aug 11, 2011 - 01:21pm PT
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There is only one problem with that Ron -- the rep. are not technically right about a damn thing.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 11, 2011 - 01:42pm PT
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Sad attempt to re-create the Post Turtle as a partisan parable. Verdict: FAIL.
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apogee
climber
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Aug 11, 2011 - 02:07pm PT
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Hey- I heard this great joke the other day- it goes like this:
A woman in a hot air balloon realized she was lost. She lowered her
altitude and spotted a man in a boat below. She shouted to him,
"Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend I would meet him an hour ago, but I don't know where I am."
The man consulted his portable GPS and replied, "You're in a hot air balloon, approximately 30 feet above ground elevation of 2,346 feet above sea level. You are at 31 degrees, 14.97 minutes north latitude and 100 degrees, 49.09 minutes west longitude.
She rolled her eyes and said, "You must be a Democrat.
"I am," replied the man. "How did you know?"
"Well," answered the balloonist, "everything you told me is technically correct. But I have no idea what to do with your information, and I'm still lost. Frankly, you've not been much help to me."
The man smiled and responded, "You must be an Teabagging Republican."
"I am," replied the balloonist. "How did you know?"
"Well," said the man, "you don't know where the in hell you are -- or where in the hell you are going. You've risen to where you are, due to a large quantity of hot air. You made a promise you have no idea how to keep, and you expect me to solve your problem.
You're in exactly the same position you were in before we met, but somehow, now it's my fault."
Funny, huh?
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jstan
climber
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Aug 11, 2011 - 02:48pm PT
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The woman muttered something under her breath the man was unable to hear.
"Madame I am sorry I did not hear what you said."
"You damn elitists, are all alike", she screamed, as she once more began generating hot air.
Chagrined, the man said, "You are probably right, Madame. I did go to Yale."
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 11, 2011 - 02:57pm PT
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What if Gore Won??
He did win, by 544,000 votes IIRC.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 11, 2011 - 03:42pm PT
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There is even more to Apogee's joke.
I have located the lake in that joke. It is just west of
Fort Worth Texas
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apogee
climber
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Aug 11, 2011 - 04:20pm PT
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apogee
climber
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Aug 11, 2011 - 04:31pm PT
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 11, 2011 - 05:07pm PT
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Oh my, who will it be?
A. The Secessionist?
B. The flip floping Magic Underwear health care reformer?
C. The pizza delivery Uncle Tom?
D. The frothy mix of lube and feces? *(Google "santorum")
E. The Quitter?
F. The moderate former Obama employee and former guv of Utard?
G. The budget wrecking, bridge collapsing, bland and forgettable...wait, who was that guy again?
H. The cancer-bed divorce serving disgraced former Speaker of the House?
What a clown-car. This debate should be nothing short of GOLD!
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 11, 2011 - 05:11pm PT
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Nothing racist about it fatman. Any black man that supports the GOP is Uncle Tom through and through. Same with any GLBT that support them. You seem confused about many things, and apparently the meaning of "racism" is one of them.
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apogee
climber
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Aug 11, 2011 - 05:15pm PT
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 11, 2011 - 05:21pm PT
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How could I forget?!!!
I. The former IRS employee with a "pray the gay away" husband, who solicits funds from the EPA and stimulus package dollars while simulatenously deriding both, and looks like meth-addled bug eyed freak?
She's your pick Fatman?
You also seem quite confused about the meaning of "most people". You and the 6 voices in your head do not equal "most people".
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 11, 2011 - 05:41pm PT
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Ronnie, really?
more vacation
It seems that projection and confusion is endemic to the conservative mind.
Let's recount, shall we?
President Obama has spent all or part of 26 days "on vacation" during his first year as president, according to CBS News White House Correspondent Mark Knoller.
Knoller, who has covered every president since Gerald Ford and is known for keeping detailed records on presidential travel
Some of the president’s recent predecessors, however, have spent more days — either entirely or partially — away from the White House "on vacation" during their first year in office.
President Reagan, in 1981, spent all or part of 42 days away from the White House "on vacation" at his home in Santa Barbara, Calif, according to Knoller. President Reagan and his wife, Nancy, also spent three or four days around New Year’s Day each year in Palm Springs, Calif., at the home of philanthropist Walter Annenberg.
President George W. Bush spent even more time away from the presidential mansion in the nation’s capital than Reagan. Of the 77 total "vacation" trips the former president made to his Texas ranch while in office, nine of them — all or part of 69 days — came during his first year as president in 2001, according to Knoller.
Bush’s father, President George H.W. Bush, spent less time "on vacation" during his first year than his son, but spent more days than President Obama. the former president took six trips — spanning all or part of 40 days — to the Bush family compound in Kennebunkport, Maine, in 1989. The archivist at Bush’s presidential library told us she didn’t have a list of all vacations but did have the Kennebunkport visits.
But at least two recent presidents — by Knoller’s count — took less "vacation" time during their first year than President Obama — Presidents Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton.
According to Knoller, Carter spent just 19 days "on vacation" in 1977. Most of that time, Knoller says, the former president spent at his home in Plains, Ga. President Clinton took all or part of 174 days of vacation during his eight years as president — most of that "vacation" time was during the summer, according to Knoller. But Knoller says Clinton only took 21 "vacation" days during his first year.
Those are first year in office comparisons, feel free to run the totals/comparisons for year 2 and midway through 3.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 11, 2011 - 05:47pm PT
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Tsk, tsk, tsk, Elcap. Don't you know?
Facts are stupid things -- Ronnie Raygun
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 11, 2011 - 05:48pm PT
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Oh dear, Fats is on the "draft Rudy" bandwagon. Good luck with that, like PawPaw, DragQueen Rudy can't even win his home state.
This cycle is very entertaining, almost like the last one but x10, with the GOPers thinking "well when XYZ gets in the race, then we'll have a winner". First it was Fred Thompson back in '08, then Rick Perry...at least Jeb is smart enough to wait it out despite the "Draft the other Bush" movement that keeps cropping up as they get more desperate watching this sh#t-show fail parade of "candidates".
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apogee
climber
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Aug 11, 2011 - 05:55pm PT
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Aug 11, 2011 - 07:15pm PT
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Well!
Senator DeMint: Obama Administration Most "Anti-American" In My Lifetime
"We saw within a few days that this president was going to be heavy-handed,
he was going to implement his agenda and pay back his political allies. And
then we quickly saw with the stimulus that he moved into spending literally
$1 trillion on what was effectively a government spending plan, and it just
went on from there to ObamaCare and then to Dodd-Frank. It has been the
most anti-business and I consider anti-American administration of my
lifetime. Things that are just so anathema to the principles of freedom, and
everything he has come up with centralizes more power in Washington,
creates more socialist-style, collectivist policies...
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/08/11/sen_demint_obama_administration_most_anti-american_in_my_lifetime.html
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Gene
climber
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Aug 11, 2011 - 07:23pm PT
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Regardless of who 'wins,' we, the people, will continue to lose. To think otherwise is absurd. There is no magic wand that can make the fiscal mess go away. We own it.
Cheers, Fattrad. Mission accomplished.
g
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 11, 2011 - 07:34pm PT
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The real problem is partisan politics and going to the extremes.
You have state legislatures redrawing districts to make them very red, or very blue. So the congress people who get elected are left wing or right wing.
Hence all the teabaggers screwing things up now.
We need more impartial choices drawing districts so we get less ideological, more practical, bipartisan, centrist folks to
represent the majority of Americans who aren't right wing / left wing kooks.
And of course money and lobbying screwing things up. And people aren't wearing enough hats.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 11, 2011 - 07:44pm PT
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Dr. F: It's not humour, its humor. I looked it up last week.
In standard English, it's humour. Besides, given my family name, if there's a choice between spelling something "or" or "our", I'll always take the latter.
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euro-brief-guy
Boulder climber
Auburn, ca
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Aug 11, 2011 - 08:03pm PT
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Oh my, the left has truly become unhinged.
very classy people.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 11, 2011 - 08:04pm PT
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Monte, what would a degenerate gambler know about it?
Fats, your boy Rudy ain't exacly setting Iowa on fire. The "corn kernel" voting at the Iowa fair:
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 11, 2011 - 08:15pm PT
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Oh my, who will it be?
A. The Secessionist?
B. The flip floping Magic Underwear health care reformer?
C. The pizza delivery Uncle Tom?
D. The frothy mix of lube and feces? *(Google "santorum")
E. The Quitter?
F. The moderate former Obama employee and former guv of Utard?
G. The budget wrecking, bridge collapsing, bland and forgettable...wait, who was that guy again?
H. The cancer-bed divorce serving disgraced former Speaker of the House?
What a clown-car. This debate should be nothing short of GOLD!
Or who will be pres? One of the above, or the guy who scolded the former administration for being irresponsible for raising the debt-ceiling because of too much spending? The guy who voted 'present' most of the time in Congress (only 2 years, with no executive experience). The college professor who hangs with former Weather Underground militants?
D. The frothy mix of lube and feces? *(Google "santorum")
Don't you think that is kinda 6th grade?
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 11, 2011 - 08:40pm PT
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bluey, Barack Obama will be the next president. The corporations that your party has placed in the position of power in this country is appalled by the Tea Party. The corporate money will go to the Democrats. The corporations will always go for the slightly right on center position, and nowadays that is the Democrats. Wall Street is turning on the GOP. The GOP is becoming the party of lunatics. Boner and McConnell can't put the genie back in the bottle. Just as in the '30s, the GOP is dead for the next 30 years.
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apogee
climber
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Aug 11, 2011 - 09:16pm PT
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Aug 11, 2011 - 10:44pm PT
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 12, 2011 - 12:36am PT
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Actually, he pulls his news out of his ass.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 12, 2011 - 11:40am PT
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Don't you think that is kinda 6th grade?
Ask Dan Savage. He's the one who coined the "frothy mix" meme and started the iniative that sucessfully made the top google searches for Santorm return the frothy mix definition.
Why? Because Santorum is virulently opposed to treating gay Americans as deserving of equal rights. Don't you that is kinda 6th grade? Couldn't have happened to a more deserving fellow.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 12, 2011 - 01:13pm PT
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Contrary to popular opinion, our political system is working
From an OpEd in the Washington Post, by Charles Krauthammer:
Our political system is working well ... indeed, precisely as designed -- profound changes in popular will translated into law that alerts the nation's political direction.
The process has been messy, loud, disputatious, and often rancorous. So what? in the end, the system works. Exhibit A is Wisconsin. Exhibit B is Washington itself.
Wow! What kind of crack to they give those folks over at the Post??
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 12, 2011 - 01:16pm PT
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Something is wrong behind those Eyes I watched most of the "debate" last night.
There's nothing behind those eyes. Nada. A perfect vacuum.
The only one who really said anything interesting was Ron Paul. Now THERE'S Paul's Balls.
I like that earlier suggestion: Next debate, first question: Do you believe in evolution? If not, why not?
So why is it that questions about a candidate's religion are off limits when so many of them claim they are guided by it? Seriously, we've got self professed religious clowns as candidates for President of what is still, at least for a while, the most powerful nation, economically and militarily. The anointed clown will have the power of life and death, derives his/her beliefs from religion, and we don't have a right to know?
Religion was a MAJOR issue when JFK (first Catholic President) was running for President. The Pope will be telling him what to do. Yet he never brought his Catholic religion into government. Unfortunately, some of these bozos plan to do precisely that.
Odd that none of these "strict constructionists" have the faintest idea what the 1st Amendment says about religion and government.
Don't forget that Shrub prayed to his god about whether to invade Iraq.
"I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.' And I did, and then God would tell me, 'George go and end the tyranny in Iraq,' and I did."
Now what would the Retardican attitude towards church and state be if there were a Muslim candidate? And I don't mean Obama.
Seriously, I didn't see one idiot up there last night who appeared "Presidential". Not one. The Faux News political commentators said the very same thing on their post game show.
In the immortal words of fattrad: Be Very Afraid. If you don't like Obama, the current alternatives are all MUCH worse. I can't wait till Preacher Perry holds his come to Jesus prayer meeting on the White House lawn. Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists and Atheists need not apply.
Did I forget to mention that according to Christian fundamentalists, Mormons aren't true Christians?
Let the religious wars begin. We'll show them there Shias and Sunnis what religious intolerance is all about.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 12, 2011 - 01:30pm PT
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Romney: "Corporations are people, my friend!"
So Romney's entire schtick at Bain Capital, his vaunted "business experience" was to borrow money against a firms assets, buy the firm with that borrowed money, "cut costs" by laying off the employees, slice up the company and sell off the assets that had value, then run the remaining destroyed shell into bankruptcy, all while paying himself a fat "management" fee off the top. Nice work if you can get it...which you can if you have a rich daddy who was the ex Gov of Michigan to set you up and pull the right strings.
The man is a disgrace to everything America is supposed to stand for and a cancer on the middle class.
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Gal
Trad climber
a semi lucid consciousness
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Aug 12, 2011 - 01:43pm PT
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Sorry if this is a repeat, I couldn't read through everything. But, when I look at the countries on a map that still have there triple A credit rating, this is what I see:
http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/06/news/international/sp_rating_countries_with_aaa/index.htm
Canada.
France.
Germany.
Norway.
Sweden.
Switzerland.
United Kingdom.
...just to name a few.
Aren't these considered "socialist"? and quite a few of them on the list are European. Don't you keep going on about how both socialism and the European countries are the problem, Fattrad? Hmmm-look at the above list/and linked map. It appears quite a few of them are still triple A rated-while we have been given the boot from that rating. Guess the problem is not as simple as your repeated few words & phrases: Socialism and Europeans (considering a lot of them have held on to the highest credit rating, and we have not)! I want our triple A rating back, and am PISSED that the repugs gambled it away. Yes, I blame the REPUGS and TEA PARTY greed!
On another note, how can Mitt Romney, when talking to a crowd yesterday, with a straight face, say "Corporations are people too". That stupid law is the most corrupt piece of legislation EVER, or at least recently. How can anyone in their right mind utter those words. A corporation is NOT a person, neither literally nor figuratively. Just that statement in itself shows the outright corruption and the fact that it's not even necessary to cover it up or lie anymore about it anymore.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 12, 2011 - 01:46pm PT
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bringing efficiencies to companies
That's quite the euphemism!
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Aug 12, 2011 - 01:52pm PT
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Pat .
If we can forget about politics for a moment,
I am stunned that you use this forum to ask for financial help and then have the audacity to post that you are losing big money in the market.
Try to understand that there are so many hurting and that there are a lot of people a lot worse off.
Have some pride.
Best Regards, Gregg
Patrick Sawyer or Pat Ament? I don't understand......who are you talking about Gregg?
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Fish Finder
Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
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Aug 12, 2011 - 02:09pm PT
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Hey couchmaster,
I removed the post and you should do the same.
I was confusing it with Patrick Oliver. MY BAD
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 12, 2011 - 02:26pm PT
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jghedge,
More and more people are registering independent, they will always vote their pocketbook, and right now, that's not a vote for Obama.
The evil one
This is the great failure of your party. Americans are NOT only about their pocketbooks. If so, we would never have entered WWII. The Greatest Generation was not that because they were the Greediest Generation.
Israel was not created through the efforts of America and others because it was in the best interest of their pocketbooks to do so. Many of the best things that we do are not in our financial interests.
This is not what makes America Great. That we are the greediest. That we are the ugliest. But keep acting that way, keep appealing to that instinct.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Aug 12, 2011 - 02:43pm PT
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The biggest problem is that the GOP candidates have to pander so much to the Tea Partiers.
When asked if they would consider a budget deal that included a 10-1 ratio of spending cuts to tax increases, they all said no (even Huntsman, who I think has more sense).
Pretty much all reputable economists have said the only way we can fix long-term deficit issues is to have both cuts to spending and revenue increases. And yet every GOP candidate is happy to pander to the idea that we can do it just by cutting spending.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 12, 2011 - 02:56pm PT
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Pretty much all reputable economists have said the only way we can fix long-term deficit issues is to have both cuts to spending and revenue increases.
Stevep,
I think that's true for the states. I don't believe "all reputable economists" agree on anything, but certainly not on the need for revenue increases if by revenue increase you mean an increase in tax rates. I say this for at least the following reasons:
1. Federal tax revenues have fluctuated within a fairly narrow range since the 1950's. Spending increased dramatically in the last ten years, causing the imbalance.
2. There is no economic consensus on the wisdom of "fixing" the long-term deficit issues. While most business economists with whom I deal agree that we cannot sustain the level of spending to which we have committed, there is no agreement that we must move to a balanced budget, for just one example. The economy expands over the long run, as does productivity. In order to maintain a stable price level, the money supply also needs to increase, and the easiest way to do that is by monetizing the debt.
3. The real area of concern is the size of the debt relative to GDP. Right now, that's too high. If GDP grows, and spending grows less, that ratio gets better. The real problem here is growing GDP. Both spending cuts and tax increases are contractionary, ceteris paribus. Instead, we need to focus on what spending and which taxes encourage growth, and which ones inhibit it.
I would say about the only thing that pretty much all reputable economists agree on is the need for floating exchange rates of international currency, but even there, the gold bugs dissent.
John
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 12, 2011 - 03:10pm PT
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tax increases are contractionary
This is simply a lie. It can be true in some cases, but stating it without qualification WHEN YOU KNOW BETTER makes you, Elezarian, a liar.
When the rich and corporations are sitting on piles of cash, cash which they are not spending but "investing" into gold, and the govt in GOP parlance "confiscate" that excess cash horde via taxes and spend it on say, infrastructure, then the net outcome is far from "contractionary".
Feel free to engage in your sophistry and half-truth bullsh#t, but don't expect that you won't be called on it because you pretty it up with big words and a lack of coarse language.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 12, 2011 - 03:17pm PT
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El cap,
Read what I said. I said they are contractionary ceteris paribus -- meaning all other things being held constant. There is overwhelming evidence of that in the economic literature, including a study published in the June, 2010, American Economic Review, written by the head of President Obama's Council of Economic Advisors (at that time) and her husband.
So please, be careful when you use the word "lie" or, by implication, "liar." I do know better. So should you.
John
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 12, 2011 - 03:30pm PT
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More sophistry. Just like the parable of the scorpion, it's in your nature, you just can't help yourself.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 12, 2011 - 03:54pm PT
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What's to comment on? They filed challenges in five districts. AFAIK, one or two of them have already been rejected, they were bound to find a sympathetic bench in one or another district. We all knew this would end up before the Supreme Court. So what exactly do you expect commentary about?
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apogee
climber
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Aug 12, 2011 - 05:42pm PT
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 12, 2011 - 08:47pm PT
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^^^^^^^^ Commie ^^^^^^
^^^^^^ Liberal ^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^ Socialist ^^^^^^
^^^^^^ Tree Hugger ^^^^^^
^^^^^^ Climber ^^^^^^
(Where does it end???)
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Gal
Trad climber
a semi lucid consciousness
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Aug 12, 2011 - 11:35pm PT
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Romney really meant that corporations are made up of people, sometimes just a few and sometimes hundreds of thousands. Who do you think owns corporations????
So, I have worked for a corporation back in the Bush days. I thought then as I do now that he did not actually win the election either time. At the company I worked for, some VP's and the CEO had signed postcards by Bush pinned to their walls. But this is in NO WAY what I believed in (Bush & his politics)... so if this corporation is made up of thousands of people, and theoretically donated money to the republican party or candidates (as they currently would be able to do/since apparently corporations are people too), this in NO WAY represented what I believe. How is this fair? THem speaking for me and pouring money to elect someone I don't believe in, yet I can't do anything about it? So really, even if there are a thousand people at that corporation, only a few are speaking for many, how is this new legislation right? It's a way to circumvent the true beliefs of the PEOPLE-Individuals-living breathing human beings, each vote counting to elect, rather than bullying corporations where you either have to quit if your company doesn't believe what you think, or just suck it up. It's just wrong. A corporation is not a person. 1 person who owns a corporation shouldn't speak in any political way for the few or many that works for them. How is this not obvious and outrageous?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 12, 2011 - 11:41pm PT
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You worked for a corporation. the stock holders own it not you, unless you are a stock holder.
They have the same right to act collectively as you do by joining any other interest group, or individually.
Those post cards were most likely for individual donations and support anyway. They are commonly sent out for modest contributions to politicians from all parties.
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Gal
Trad climber
a semi lucid consciousness
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Aug 13, 2011 - 12:20am PT
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So jhedge, you aren't against "Citizens United". I hear what you are saying. The corporation I worked for wouldn't be able to afford pouring money towards a candidate (I don't think). Is transparency going to be a reality? We may be able to see the effects during the next presidential campaign.
TGT-do you think "Citizens United" seems ok? Tell me why?
I still find it disconcerting and wonder why this new rule would even NEED to exist... it feels like there must be some underhanded reason, or why bother getting it passed? I don't have high trust in this sort of thing.
I liked this quote "Too frequently the extension of corporate constitutional rights is a zero-sum game that diminishes the rights and powers of real individuals," attorney Carl Mayer wrote in a paper on corporations and the Bill of Rights. "Equality of constitutional rights plus an inequality of legislated and de facto powers leads inexorably to the supremacy of artificial over real persons."
from the article: http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/196469/20110811/mitt-romney-corporations-people-mitt-romney-corporations-citizens-united-legal-personhood.htm
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 13, 2011 - 12:46am PT
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Gal,
Are you saying that individual rights don't matter if they're aggregated?
El Cap
I realize that your stock answer will be that anything with which you disagree is either a lie or sophistry, so I offer this for those others who might be reading our exchange.
In the June, 2010 issue of the most prestigious economics journal in the world, the American Economic Review specifically at pages 763-807, you will find the following article by Christina D. Romer and David H. Romer: "The Macroeceonomic Effects of Tax Changes: Estimates Based on a New Measure of Fiscal Shocks." Ms. Romer was, at the time she wrote this article, the chair of President Obama's Council of Economic Advisors.
The abstract reads as follows:
"This paper investigates the impact of tax changes on economic activity. We use the narrative record, such sa presidential speeches and Congressional reports, to identify the size, timing, and principal motivation for all major post-war tax policy actions. This analysis allows us to separate legislated changes into those taken for reasons related to prospective economic conditions and those taken for more exogenous reasons. The behavior of output following these more exogenous changes indicates that tax increases are highly contractionary. The effects are strongly significant, highly robust, and much larger than those obtained using broader measures of tax changes. [Emphasis supplied]
Call me a liar if you wish, but your position on this issue strongly resembles that of the climate change deniers. I challenge you to find a paper published in a refereed, peer-reviewed journal that says that tax increases are not contractionary.
John
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apogee
climber
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Aug 13, 2011 - 01:41am PT
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"Are you saying that individual rights don't matter if they're aggregated?"
Individuals have rights. They each get one vote. Just because a bunch of individuals vote the same way, doesn't mean they get an extra vote because they're aggregated. (Or have shiteloads of moola.)
John, you make this argument often- that corporations are entities of themselves, comprised of individuals of like interest. Corporations are not democracies comprised of a bunch of individuals who have a vote in the direction of the organization, each with equal influence. If such was the case, I'd buy into your argument a bit more, but then we'd probably be talking about a veeeerrrry different kind of political system.
Corporations are run by a relatively small group of individuals, specifically for a capitalistic gain. They aren't countries. If anything, the closest parallel government model one might find for a corporation is a dictatorship.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 13, 2011 - 01:47am PT
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Apogee,
I could make the same argument much more forcefully about unions. Corporations spread their donations accross the political spectrum. While they tend to give more to Republicans than Democrats, that reflects the fact that Republicans don't view business as the enemy. Also, you generally don't need to buy stock in a corporation to obtain a job.
Unions, on the other hand, give virtually all of their cash to Democrats. Their membership is not nearly as overwhelmingly Democratic as their donations. I know plenty of Republican union members, many of whom joined solely because their work required it, who are totally unrepresented.
The fact remains that the supporters of limiting corporate donations, by and large, want no such limit on union donations. All that shows is that this is an attempt to stifle speech with which the would-be stiflers disagree.
John
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Aug 13, 2011 - 01:48am PT
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We've come full circle back to fighting barbarians at arms reach.
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apogee
climber
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Aug 13, 2011 - 01:55am PT
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"I could make the same argument much more forcefully about unions. Corporations spread their donations accross the political spectrum. While they tend to give more to Republicans than Democrats, that reflects the fact that Republicans don't view business as the enemy. "
While I can understand (and agree with) the similarity in political influence with unions, that still blurs and diverts the issue. Without a doubt, one of the tenets of our governmental system is the concept of individuals steering their own destinies via their elected leaders. Anytime that system is subverted by a group saying that they somehow have better or different rights (or greater influence), we are becoming Animal Farm.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 13, 2011 - 01:58am PT
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Donald,
Romer is trying to undo the effect of her own paper. What she doesn't address is the difference in economic output between transfer payments and expenditures for basic research and infrastucture that are more in the nature of investment.
To put this in context, though, I said this morning that tax increases and spending cuts are contractionary, ceteris paribus. El Cap called me a liar for saying that. I cited the 2010 American Economic Review article by the Romers as evidence of a peer-reviewed study by an obvious Obama ally confirming that tax increases are contractionary. Hedge's "rebuttal" article merely shows that even a left-leaning economist agrees with what I said, namely that spending cuts and tax increases are contractionary. You can draw your own conclusions as to whether I was lying.
I still challenge anyone to cite a peer-reviewed study in a refereed journal that shows that tax increases are not contractionary.
John
P.S.
I find it significant that hedge's citation is to an op-ed piece, rather than a peer-reviewed journal article.
What she really is saying, though, is what I said -- there is no consensus among economists that eliminating the federal deficit is such a good idea.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 13, 2011 - 02:00am PT
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So I go back to what I said before, apogee. Do we lose our rights as individuals when we act in concert?
John
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apogee
climber
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Aug 13, 2011 - 02:06am PT
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Of course not, John.
Your last response seems to imply that since unions enjoy a different influence on the political system, corporations should, too. I can't imagine that the Founding Fathers intended to see our governmental system extend individual rights to such things as unions or corporations- 'aggregations' of individuals.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 13, 2011 - 02:06am PT
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Isn't the accepted abbreviation "AOTBE" - All Other Things Being Equal? At least it's English.
Brought to you by LAUVLEL - Lawyers Against Unnecessary and Vexatious use of Latin in Everyday Language.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 13, 2011 - 02:12am PT
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That's her contention, Kevin, although the paper to which she alludes hasn't been published yet.
What she alludes to, but doesn't address explicitly, is the differences in types of spending (or, for that matter, types of taxes). Transfer payments and income taxes reduce the incentive to earn. Government spending on essential infrastructure and basic research, on the other hand, generally has the same expansionary effect as any other investment spending.
It's this differentiation between types of taxation and types of spending that's missing in the budgetary debate. If our goal is to expand employment, we need to expand GDP. Since our funds to do so are limited (unless we want to move the Parthenon to Washington D.C.), we need to avoid tax increases and expenditure cuts that are particularly contractionary. There's more consensus on what those are, at least among professional economic forecasters, than most people think.
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 13, 2011 - 02:16am PT
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The real question is why are we all posting here on a Friday night in summer? I at least have an excuse (I hurt my hand in a leader fall three weeks ago, and I still can't climb)?
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 13, 2011 - 02:43am PT
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The rigor of the arguments varies with the forum.
John
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Aug 13, 2011 - 08:12am PT
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"nothing the British Empire did to its subject peoples has been as total and catastrophic as what a post-great Britain did to its own..."
read the rest to see the inevitable consequences of the liberal dream; then, consider: barry said in 2008 that under his policies energy prices would "necessarily skyrocket", and he continues to push programs that will continue to increase energy prices
more from steyn:
“'A man of 21 with learning disabilities has been granted taxpayers’ money to fly to Amsterdam and have sex with a prostitute.'
Hey, why not? “He’s planning to do more than just have his end away,” explained his social worker. “Refusing to offer him this service would be a violation of his human rights.”
Why do they need a Dutch hooker? Just another hardworking foreigner doing the jobs Britons won’t do? Given the reputation of English womanhood, you’d have thought this would be the one gig that wouldn’t have to be outsourced overseas.
While the British Treasury is busy writing checks to Amsterdam prostitutes, one-fifth of children are raised in homes in which no adult works — in which the weekday ritual of rising, dressing, and leaving for gainful employment is entirely unknown. One tenth of the adult population has done not a day’s work since Tony Blair took office on May 1, 1997."
consider: our unemployment hovers at 9% while libs and barry continue to promote longer unemployment benefits (as if three years isn't enough) and claim ridiculous "rights" (pa's cell phone distribution) that will continue to drain public coffers, all while continuing to push programs that cut jobs
so, either libs are too stupid to learn from history or the example of others or they really do want to destroy america...i'm open to other explanations
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 13, 2011 - 09:15am PT
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Britain has been on this inevitable course for well over one hundred years.
Well documented
http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/Tocqueville_rr2.pdf
so, either libs are too stupid to learn from history or the example of others or they really do want to destroy America...I'm open to other explanations
Well, pick one.
I'm going climbing.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 13, 2011 - 11:04am PT
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Ricky, OMG!
John, Unions, on the other hand, give virtually all of their cash to Democrats. Their membership is not nearly as overwhelmingly Democratic as their donations. I know plenty of Republican union members, many of whom joined solely because their work required it, who are totally unrepresented.
That's strange. The union I'm in is heavily Republican, for some reason. They seem represented to me. They get to vote in the union election. They get the same benefits, or cuts in benefits anymore, as everyone else.
Why shouldn't unions donate to Democrats? Name a Republican who has proposed a worker friendly piece of legislation.
These guy vote Republican in every election, which I don't get. It's like clockwork, by the time a Republican has been president for a few years, they are all out of work. I guess they don't like paying taxes, and when a Republican is in office, there is no work, so they aren't paying taxes.
Sorry to hear about your hand! Are you working on the left-handed repertoire?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 13, 2011 - 11:23am PT
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Unions are another reason our jobs are going overseas. They make unreasonable demands and demand ridiculous pensions that ultimately cost their employers.
Why wouldn't a company send jobs overseas?
And don't give me the crap about worker's rights. There are plenty of laws and regulations in place to protect workers from unsafe/unfair treatment from employers.
I work in manufacturing. No union. Fair salary. Good medical. 401k that the employer kicks a bit into.
Maybe it's the unions killing our jobs...or at least contributing to their demise.
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apogee
climber
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Aug 13, 2011 - 11:39am PT
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"I just deleted my last two posts because this site is no place for climbing
experiences."
Good call. I did the same. No sense muddying up this place with OT climbing topics.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 13, 2011 - 11:49am PT
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And you really think unions are driving jobs overseas? Proof? Links?
No. Just common sense.
Unions served a purpose BITD. They are no longer needed, as I said before.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 13, 2011 - 11:49am PT
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He's just parroting the corporate line, hedge, without putting any thought into it. Our CEOs make 500 time what their workers make, maybe that's why we can't afford to manufacture here?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Aug 13, 2011 - 11:54am PT
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This union thing works on several levels.
You have your union of employees who work in a certain private sector. This usually works out pretty well. They and the company are in a somewhat adversarial but at the same time mutually dependent situation. The union can negotiate on behalf of the workers but does not want to kill the goose…
Then you have unions where the members work for companies like GM, which have over the years become political establishments in their own right, operating under an understanding with government that if they get into serious trouble they will get bailed out. The problem is that both the unions and the corporations are in on this, so there is less incentive for the union to have much concern for the health of the company.
Finally you have unionized government workers. In this situation you have a corrupt situation where the unions contribute to the campaign funds of the very people they will then “negotiate” with for how much of the public’s money they can have.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 13, 2011 - 12:06pm PT
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Our CEOs make 500 time what their workers make, maybe that's why we can't afford to manufacture here?
Yeah, that's another problem...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 13, 2011 - 12:21pm PT
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That's the problem with your opinion on unions, blue - you think CEO pay is another problem, when it's the same problem.
That's what I meant. Part of the same problem of outsourcing.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 13, 2011 - 12:43pm PT
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Kris,
If the capitalists hadn't acted like, well, capitalist, there would never have been a need for unions.
To equate corporations and unions seems wrong to me. Corporations are controlled by at most a very few individuals. Unions are democratically run institutions. Yes, you can point out some cases of corruption. That never happens in the corporate world and is only found in unions, I know.
But if you don't like the way the union is run, you change it. Look up the history of the Bakery and Confectionary Workers for an example.
The main problems with unions today is the piecemeal organization of the AFL-CIO.
People were murdered by capitalist thugs in their attempts to organize. That's a fact. Women and children wee killed in cold blood in places like Ludlow, Colorado by order of John Rockefeller.
To say that unions killed GM is incredibly wrong.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 13, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
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Gary, there are Federal and State laws that protect the welfare of workers now. And yes, they are derived from the misconduct of employers, but the fat still remains, non-union workers are well protected now.
And employers understand that the better the 'benefits' package they offer, the better the employee that will seek out those jobs.
There is a give-and-take in the non-union world too!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 13, 2011 - 12:51pm PT
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Bluering...Your job sounds like it has the same benefits that my union provides...? How come your job hasn't been shipped overseas...?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 13, 2011 - 12:56pm PT
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How come your job hasn't been shipped overseas...?
The particular product line I work on requires too much hands-on skillz. Attention to details, etc...
2 of our other lines are being done in China. The cheaper stuff.
The systems I work on sell for 200K-500K/system. Kris knows the gear.
EDIT:
Bluering...Your job sounds like it has the same benefits that my union provides...?
So it is possible to get benefits,fair salary, and fair treatment without unions?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 13, 2011 - 01:03pm PT
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ha ha! hilarious! thats what they all said until some crafty gypo overseas popped their bubble
You have no idea what you're talking about in terms of this line...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 13, 2011 - 01:14pm PT
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This is one of the smaller systems.
One of the bigger ones. Dual-operator post-production.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 13, 2011 - 01:32pm PT
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Everything I have seen tells me management is what needs to be outsourced.
Almost always you have "marque" people brought in for the CEO position and the last thing a
CEO ignorant of what they are doing can tolerate is a second in command who actually knows
the business and the product. The rot naturally seeps down till all you hear, as I did, is that "a
manager can manage anything." My reply was to the effect that a manager who knows the job
will beat, every time, a competing manager who does not know the job. Since product specific
knowledge within management has vanished, we might as well have the job done more cheaply
elsewhere.
Another thing would be fixed. Managers never lay off managers. You wind up with a matrix
management where every touch labor person has five managers overseeing them. If
management is outsourced you contract with a cheaper firm that has solved that problem
internally. This would actually make it harder for touch labor. A touch labor person with two or
more bosses has an absolutely free pass. Large management corps are a lose-lose.
The time I was in this game I was very lucky. I basically got spreadsheet like instructions as to
how I had to award bonuses. I ignored those instructions, completely. I was on the floor and
I knew first hand who was pulling the load. Since then the rot has sunk much further and the end
is neigh.
Gone are the days when the President would, unannounced, plop themselves in front of your
desk and ask what it is that most interests you now. Even Presidents used to be on the floor.
Morale was sky high.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 13, 2011 - 02:02pm PT
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The time I was in this game I was very lucky. I basically got spreadsheet like instructions as to
how I had to award bonuses. I ignored those instructions, completely.** I was on the floor and I knew first hand who was pulling the load. Since then the rot has sunk much further and the end
is neigh.**
Gone are the days when the President would, unannounced, plop themselves in front of your
desk and ask what it is that most interests you now. Even Presidents used to be on the floor.
Morale was sky high.
Very true. As a Production Technical Manager (below the Production Manager), I can relate to this sentiment.
And our new COO dropped in on me unexpectadley not too long ago, and I was having a bad day and totally flubbed the conversation. I do so many different things between Field Support, Engineering Support, and Technical Production Maintenance, I had a hard time when he dropped the, "So, what do you do around here?"
He is a cool guy and things are good between us. I just was caught off-guard, trying to put my head into a problem I was working on. I think he realized that.
But it IS good for them to hit the front-lines regularly.
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apogee
climber
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Aug 13, 2011 - 02:14pm PT
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The Meltdown’s True Villain
With a double-dip recession looming and attacks on Obama mounting, it’s amazing the GOP is still setting the U.S. agenda when its own George W. Bush ran up half the debt we’ve accumulated since Reagan.
Aug 5, 2011
Michael Tomasky
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/08/05/economic-meltdown-villain-george-w-bush-s-staggering-debt-numbers.html?obref=obinsite
(excerpts)
The Boston Globe ran a chart last Sunday that I’d buy billboard space to reproduce in every decent-size city in America, if I were running the Democratic National Committee. The premise of it was very simple: It showed how many trillions each president since Ronald Reagan has added to the nation’s debt. The debt was about $1 trillion when Reagan took office, and then: Reagan, $1.9 trillion; George H.W. Bush, $1.5 trillion (in just four years); Bill Clinton, $1.4 trillion; Obama, $2.4 trillion.
Oh, wait. I skipped someone. George W. Bush ran up $6.4 trillion. That’s nearly half—44.7 percent—of the $14.3 trillion total. We all know what did it—two massive tax cuts geared toward the rich (along with other similar measures, like slashing the capital gains and inheritance taxes), the off-the-books wars, the unfunded Medicare expansion, and so on. But the number is staggering and worth dwelling on. In a history covering 30 years, nearly half the debt was run up in eight. Even the allegedly socialist Obama at his most allegedly wanton doesn’t compare to Dubya; and Obama’s debt numbers, if he’s reelected, will surely not double or even come close as we gambol down Austerity Lane.
When I haven’t had to leave the room to avoid smashing the television, I can only laugh when I hear Tea Party conservatives avow today, with all the credibility of Larry Craig explaining his wide-stance technique, that they have no love for Bush.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 13, 2011 - 02:14pm PT
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Blue..the COO stopping by usually precurses job termination..Mammoth Mountain is taking applications for lift crew operators...Starting wage..$ 8.35 an hour...RJ
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 13, 2011 - 02:24pm PT
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Blue..the COO stopping by usually precurses job termination..Mammoth Mountain is taking applications for lift crew operators...Starting wage..$ 8.35 an hour...RJ
Nah, it was a retiring Exec getting replaced and he came by to familiarize himself with us. We have about 3-5 years of production left. Then it's all field-support of existing customers.
Mammoth is hiring, huh?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 13, 2011 - 03:00pm PT
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Great climbing , skiing , biking...get out of that hell hole blue....RJ
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apogee
climber
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Aug 13, 2011 - 03:03pm PT
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blue'll never do it. He's locked in hard with a marriage, kid and mortgage- he'd never find a comparable income in his line of work on the East Side.
However, the fishin' is fine, and right out the door, blue....
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 13, 2011 - 03:06pm PT
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Managers never lay off managers
That must have changed since I worked for a small (around 1,000 employees) manufacturing company, jstan. Overhead got cut, including lots of management, when business dropped. More importantly, management got fired, not laid off, when results were bad.
I agree with Kevin that some of the salaries paid to CEO's defy economic justification. I don't invest in companies whose executive compensation strikes me as excessive, because that indicates their attitudes toward their shareholders. It always makes me wonder how shareholders tolerate paying enormous compensation to executives of companies with mediocre results.
Apogee, Your cited article repeats an untruth, namely that during the Bush administration, Congress enacted "two massive tax cuts geared toward the rich." The Bush tax cuts reduced taxes for everyone. If you believe the static analysis Democrats like to use, the greatest revenue loss came from lowered middle class tax revenue. If we rescinded those cuts, what would that have done to the economy?
John
P.S.
Gary, my right hand is OK, but the ring finger and pinkie on my left hand are still swollen (though x-rays were negative). I can play single notes OK, but powerful chords hurt like crazy. I'm working on right-handed climbing. I guess all those one-handed routes we did at Indian Rock 40 years ago might come in handy now.
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apogee
climber
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Aug 13, 2011 - 03:20pm PT
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Well, John, I'd agree with you in one respect- the impacts of those tax cuts are greatly argued.
So what's your take on this, John:
Repubs also greatly argue that the economic boom that took place during the 90's was either lucky timing, or that Clinton inherited conditions put into place prior to his presidency. Arguable. Very arguable.
But moving on...the bottom line is that at the end of Clinton's term, he handed over a sizable, record surplus over to a Republican POTUS, who then squandered it (in whatever ways you are willing to acknowledge) into a record setting deficit.
(Let's not mention that another relatively recent Repub POTUS did something similar.) You can argue how or whether the 90's surplus was a result of R or D policies, but it's pretty hard to argue that the surplus was real, and was squandered by the following POTUS.
With that kind of record, why in the hell would anyone support the GOP chiefly on the basis of 'fiscal responsibility'?
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 13, 2011 - 03:27pm PT
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John,
Glad to hear it's not too serious. Since I took up piano, hand injuries worry me to no end.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 13, 2011 - 09:10pm PT
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Apogee,
I think CLinton did a lot of things right, particularly after the Republicans took control of Congress, so Clinton did not have to fight the leftists in his own party.
The bursting of the dot.com bubble certainly was a big part of turning yearly budget surpluses into deficits, and that was the fault of neither party. That said, things like unfunded wars and, particularly, an unfunded Medicare drug benefit, did the real damage. The last two years of the Reupblican congress were a disaster; I had trouble telling who were the Democrats and who were the Republicans, I thought then. Pelosi and Ried since showed there is a difference, but that's beside the point. Neither party has an enviable record on fiscal prudence.
John
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apogee
climber
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Aug 13, 2011 - 09:25pm PT
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"That said, things like unfunded wars and, particularly, an unfunded Medicare drug benefit, did the real damage.... Neither party has an enviable record on fiscal prudence."
Jeepers it's nice to see a Repub actually acknowledge that their party was responsible for running us into a ditch. That's pretty hard to come by. You do realize, don't you John, that you would be run out on a rail by today's GOP as a RINO with statements like that? Not to worry, though- you'd be in very good company with a bunch of rational conservatives that have been excommunicated.
Before some other Repub droid turns this back around at me....yes, I think it's clear that Obama's presidency has been pretty unsuccessful thusfar, and I don't hold a ton of hope that it's gonna improve. Clearly, his economic strategy has been ineffective (at least in the relatively short term). Problem is, we don't really get another choice within one's own party, and the GOP field is basically trying to outdo each other by being more extreme than each other, and making Shrub look like a moderate. Meh.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 14, 2011 - 10:19am PT
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and the GOP field is basically trying to outdo each other by being more extreme than each other, and making Shrub look like a moderate. Meh.
Well, he sure as hell wasn't a fiscal conservative.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 14, 2011 - 11:03am PT
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Which obviously doesn't matter to you, or you wouldn't have voted for him.
Well, hindsight is 20/20, right? And things changed a bit after 9-11.
And who was he running against in 2004?
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Aug 14, 2011 - 11:09am PT
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And to the defense of folks who did vote for Bush - there wasn't any track record they could have looked at to know he'd not be fiscally conservative. His only office was the Governorship of Texas - the most powerless governorship in the nation (The Lieutenant Governor holds the power). In Texas Government textbooks, the governor is described as largely a figure head and one who judges chili cook-offs. No joke!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 14, 2011 - 11:14am PT
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In Texas Government textbooks, the governor is described as largely a figure head and one who judges chili cook-offs. No joke!
Mmmm, chili...
hehe.
EDIT:
"I could have gotten a thousand people to sign a petition against algebra last night."
Straw polls are meaningless. I agree.
Pawlenty is a puss for dropping out.
EDIT EDIT: And Algebra DOES suck, until you understand it. I'm going climbing with a Math-Nerd today....
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 14, 2011 - 11:30am PT
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Talk later, I'm going climbing....
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Aug 14, 2011 - 11:48am PT
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Agreed Bluey....mmmmm chili.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 14, 2011 - 11:55am PT
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Tim Pawlenty, the ex governor of Minnesota, has just announced he is dropping out of the race.
He said he sees "no path forward" for himself to the nomination.
Maybe he can get some work defunding Planned Parenthood and National Public Radio.
Or at least speak out against those pesky gays having abortions or something.
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apogee
climber
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Aug 14, 2011 - 11:58am PT
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Norton! Long time, no post!
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apogee
climber
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Aug 14, 2011 - 12:01pm PT
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"And to the defense of folks who did vote for Bush - there wasn't any track record they could have looked at to know he'd not be fiscally conservative."
That gives Shrub credit for actually developing a fiscal strategy- I don't think that was the case, whatsoever. He was really nothing more than a puppet to the neocon agenda, doing their bidding. When it turned to shite, they could walk away and leave Shrub holding the shite-filled bag.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Aug 14, 2011 - 12:03pm PT
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I agree completely Apogee.
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apogee
climber
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Aug 14, 2011 - 04:33pm PT
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That's a particularly harsh photo...makes you wonder if Bachmann's 'handlers' gave any thought to things to do/things not to do at the Fair. That image is gonna go(ne?) viral in a heartbeat.
Makes all the hoo-hah over the Newsweek cover sound silly (which it is).
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apogee
climber
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Aug 14, 2011 - 06:45pm PT
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She's frickin' surrounded by photogs....
Unbelievable that she could be so obtuse as to not see where a pic like that would go...
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Aug 14, 2011 - 07:42pm PT
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Any press is good press (for the most part). Those photos will get her a lot of attention which is the goal, no?
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apogee
climber
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Aug 14, 2011 - 08:49pm PT
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"We may be slightly over exaggerating the potential importance of corn dog gate. Ed Rollins has been running a very tight ship, apparently the campaign doesn't see it as a problem."
That's really hard to believe. She's the darlin' of the Religious Right- even they know the significance of an image like that (though they probably headed straight home for a dozen hail Marys). Even if Rollins thinks it's not a problem with their constituency, it's frickin' red meat for her bloodthirsty opponents, and is already all over the place. (Try googling images with keywords 'Bachmann corndog'). Politics is about offense and defense- poor, poor judgement on someone's part.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 14, 2011 - 09:29pm PT
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I'm a minor student of Ed Rollin's career, and it is a big mistake to underestimate his skills. He has the ability to maneuver his candidates, if they will listen to him, into a position where they can take advantage of events and unexpected opportunities. Those opportunities may never come, but if they do.....
Bachmann seems so bizarre as to be impossible to take seriously to me. But I thought the same of GW Bush.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Aug 14, 2011 - 09:37pm PT
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Can anyone tell from the above pic if she spitz or swallows?
If she is going to be our president (lol) I would like to know. hehehe.
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euro-brief-guy
Boulder climber
Auburn, ca
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Aug 14, 2011 - 11:12pm PT
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Once again, the left.......the epitome of class!
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 14, 2011 - 11:49pm PT
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Captain...or Skully
climber
or some such
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Aug 14, 2011 - 11:51pm PT
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I don't feel 'Tardy'...WTF?
Remember Rocks? They don't care.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Aug 15, 2011 - 12:10am PT
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I think they must feel that the best thing to happen is for people to make a big deal of this. Once someone makes it sexual then they can fein indignation (more press). But I know nothing of Rollins' line of work. It just seems that she can't lose with the attention this "innocent" photo will bring her. Time will tell.
I do hope Rick Perry doesn't it. It would be quite the same. :)
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apogee
climber
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Aug 15, 2011 - 12:21am PT
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I am hereby taking a vow not to utter a single sexual reference or even a double entendre in response to Bachmann's unfortunate corndog incident. I am swearing to stay on the high road on this one, no matter how gratuitous and laugh-out-loud hilarious the opportunities might be for taunting.
I'm gonna really try, anyway.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 15, 2011 - 12:27am PT
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You expect us to swallow that?
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Captain...or Skully
climber
or some such
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Aug 15, 2011 - 12:29am PT
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Eff you 'Tards................Always & forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Go to the goddam 'tard site. This is for rocks & beauty & trees & birds & clouds & critters & actually doin' things & poetry & comedy. And more. But not for you. YOU SUCK. Rocks, you bastids. I will NOT relent. EVER.
F*#k you & yer goddam horse...................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 15, 2011 - 12:29am PT
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apogee
climber
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Aug 15, 2011 - 12:33am PT
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Hey, Skully...want a corndog?
Where shall we put it?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 15, 2011 - 12:40am PT
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Captain...or Skully
climber
or some such
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Aug 15, 2011 - 12:43am PT
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Pick a spot, you little bitch..................................Good luck....................'Tard.............................................................................Feckers................................................................................................................Bite me.......................................................................................................as#@&%es...........................................................All .....................................You!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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apogee
climber
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Aug 15, 2011 - 12:46am PT
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Got a corndog here for ya, Skully....
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Captain...or Skully
climber
or some such
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Aug 15, 2011 - 02:22am PT
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I like a good corndog, but you guys take the cake.
Imagine, a corndog cake. The mind boggles.
Eff you very much, 'Tard. I got yer 'whay'. Faker.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
or some such
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Aug 15, 2011 - 02:43am PT
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That's a big pile of gop. You gonna eat that?
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Captain...or Skully
climber
or some such
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Aug 15, 2011 - 03:07am PT
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Bring forth. Let's see it. You started it, faker.
Look around. No......Wider. NO............W I D E R !!!!!!!! WIDER YET.
Look around. Dude, I know these folk. MANY of them. In The REAL world. No one knows you. You're not real.
Deck of cards. Bite me.
BTW, yer so called hi tech bike sure breaks a lot. Need some maintenance tips? My triple triangle has never failed. In 16 years. Hmmm.
To me, that says something. Even after Brad Bond broke it brand new. He bought some parts & Voila!!!!! no more failures.
Preventive Maintenance. It's kinda easy peasy. Maybe, I guess.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
or some such
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Aug 15, 2011 - 03:28am PT
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Deck of cards. You aren't relevant. Nor have you EVER been.
You don't exist.
I've never tried to be a badass. You dumbass. I'm just another monkey.
I won't ask my tribe to defend against a POS like yourself. You Aren't worthy. Nor have you EVER been. Save it. Waste of time.
Who is on the back cover of The Stuportopo guide? OMG, it's me.
I am real. Have a nice day in cardboard land.
Actually, I've got partners, but most have children. I have more free time than they do.
No one in the Valley knows you(that includes oldtimers). I know why. You aren't real. Never have been.
Bye now. I've got this corndog cake to get through. I can't be bothered.
That twisting almost truth stuff is pretty poor form. Maybe you actually perceive things in that fashion....I dunno. Fairly sad, I'd call it. Go ahead & have your damned Tardnet. It's ALL you've got, anyway.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Aug 15, 2011 - 09:26am PT
|
Is that what it's called now? A butter stick? Bwahahhahah. :)
Warbler - I guess that was a total Freudian slip (or Freudian typo). There are lots of things I hope Rick Perry doesn't do. I meant to state I hope he doesn't get a photo of himself choking down a 'butter stick' :) ha!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 15, 2011 - 02:11pm PT
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Riley speaks truth -- at least regarding the deep-fried butter stick.
It (but not any presidential candidates) was featured on the news on
Friday night. They start with a butter stick, add sugar, cinnamon,
batter, and deep fry. I don't know if they come with an ambulance
ride to the ER included, though.
In the meantime, I'm enjoying Rokjox's efforts to make extra work for
Skully. Well done!
John
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 15, 2011 - 02:53pm PT
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I wonder how she is with a cigar?
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Aug 15, 2011 - 03:39pm PT
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If any of you guys are dumb enough to vote for her she'll have this talking about hot dogs stuff pretending that it's a phallus shut down right quick. And you'll all have to go to Church on Sunday for remedial instead of climbing or posing online too.
Its all fun and games till these evangelists start passing laws telling you how to live your (immoral) life.
ps, how is it that no one has animated Rickys great photo yet? Get that head a bobbin. This stuff is usually scripted by the managers, lets see how Ed Rollins likes the new .gif.
I miss ouch. He would have already had this finished.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Aug 15, 2011 - 04:12pm PT
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Huh huh, huh huh, Radical said "pole".
:)
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Aug 15, 2011 - 05:32pm PT
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so...fareed zakaria still think keynes is right and suggests the government "pay people to dig a ditch and then fill it back in again" once again proving that libs have no appreciation for history...this is exactly what fdr did and is exactly why unemployment was still in the upper 20s in 1938
then, former enron advisor and libs' fave economist paul krugman fantasizes about an alien invasion (citing the twilight zone as his source) as a means to repair the economy...he does point to ww2 but seems to forget the other wars that barry currently has going
and you call bachman a nut
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 15, 2011 - 05:52pm PT
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That f$%^ing Warren Buffett, he don't know jack squat about Eekunawmics:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/15/opinion/stop-coddling-the-super-rich.html?_r=1&hp
"OUR leaders have asked for “shared sacrifice.” But when they did the asking, they spared me. I checked with my mega-rich friends to learn what pain they were expecting. They, too, were left untouched.
While the poor and middle class fight for us in Afghanistan, and while most Americans struggle to make ends meet, we mega-rich continue to get our extraordinary tax breaks. Some of us are investment managers who earn billions from our daily labors but are allowed to classify our income as “carried interest,” thereby getting a bargain 15 percent tax rate. Others own stock index futures for 10 minutes and have 60 percent of their gain taxed at 15 percent, as if they’d been long-term investors.
These and other blessings are showered upon us by legislators in Washington who feel compelled to protect us, much as if we were spotted owls or some other endangered species. It’s nice to have friends in high places.
Last year my federal tax bill — the income tax I paid, as well as payroll taxes paid by me and on my behalf — was $6,938,744. That sounds like a lot of money. But what I paid was only 17.4 percent of my taxable income — and that’s actually a lower percentage than was paid by any of the other 20 people in our office. Their tax burdens ranged from 33 percent to 41 percent and averaged 36 percent.
If you make money with money, as some of my super-rich friends do, your percentage may be a bit lower than mine. But if you earn money from a job, your percentage will surely exceed mine — most likely by a lot.
To understand why, you need to examine the sources of government revenue. Last year about 80 percent of these revenues came from personal income taxes and payroll taxes. The mega-rich pay income taxes at a rate of 15 percent on most of their earnings but pay practically nothing in payroll taxes. It’s a different story for the middle class: typically, they fall into the 15 percent and 25 percent income tax brackets, and then are hit with heavy payroll taxes to boot.
Back in the 1980s and 1990s, tax rates for the rich were far higher, and my percentage rate was in the middle of the pack. According to a theory I sometimes hear, I should have thrown a fit and refused to invest because of the elevated tax rates on capital gains and dividends.
I didn’t refuse, nor did others. I have worked with investors for 60 years and I have yet to see anyone — not even when capital gains rates were 39.9 percent in 1976-77 — shy away from a sensible investment because of the tax rate on the potential gain. People invest to make money, and potential taxes have never scared them off. And to those who argue that higher rates hurt job creation, I would note that a net of nearly 40 million jobs were added between 1980 and 2000. You know what’s happened since then: lower tax rates and far lower job creation.
Since 1992, the I.R.S. has compiled data from the returns of the 400 Americans reporting the largest income. In 1992, the top 400 had aggregate taxable income of $16.9 billion and paid federal taxes of 29.2 percent on that sum. In 2008, the aggregate income of the highest 400 had soared to $90.9 billion — a staggering $227.4 million on average — but the rate paid had fallen to 21.5 percent.
The taxes I refer to here include only federal income tax, but you can be sure that any payroll tax for the 400 was inconsequential compared to income. In fact, 88 of the 400 in 2008 reported no wages at all, though every one of them reported capital gains. Some of my brethren may shun work but they all like to invest. (I can relate to that.)
I know well many of the mega-rich and, by and large, they are very decent people. They love America and appreciate the opportunity this country has given them. Many have joined the Giving Pledge, promising to give most of their wealth to philanthropy. Most wouldn’t mind being told to pay more in taxes as well, particularly when so many of their fellow citizens are truly suffering.
Twelve members of Congress will soon take on the crucial job of rearranging our country’s finances. They’ve been instructed to devise a plan that reduces the 10-year deficit by at least $1.5 trillion. It’s vital, however, that they achieve far more than that. Americans are rapidly losing faith in the ability of Congress to deal with our country’s fiscal problems. Only action that is immediate, real and very substantial will prevent that doubt from morphing into hopelessness. That feeling can create its own reality.
Job one for the 12 is to pare down some future promises that even a rich America can’t fulfill. Big money must be saved here. The 12 should then turn to the issue of revenues. I would leave rates for 99.7 percent of taxpayers unchanged and continue the current 2-percentage-point reduction in the employee contribution to the payroll tax. This cut helps the poor and the middle class, who need every break they can get.
But for those making more than $1 million — there were 236,883 such households in 2009 — I would raise rates immediately on taxable income in excess of $1 million, including, of course, dividends and capital gains. And for those who make $10 million or more — there were 8,274 in 2009 — I would suggest an additional increase in rate.
My friends and I have been coddled long enough by a billionaire-friendly Congress. It’s time for our government to get serious about shared sacrifice.
Warren E. Buffett is the chairman and chief executive of Berkshire Hathaway"
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 15, 2011 - 05:58pm PT
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dyamn
elcap beat me to the Buffett article.
Warbler....now THAT's funny!
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 15, 2011 - 06:24pm PT
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What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 15, 2011 - 07:00pm PT
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"pay people to dig a ditch and then fill it back in again" once again proving that libs have no appreciation for history...this is exactly what fdr did and is exactly why unemployment was still in the upper 20s in 1938
FDR wasn't exactly original. Progressives were just as misguided in 1848
The sophism that I am attacking in this essay is all the more dangerous when applied to public works, since it serves to justify the most foolishly prodigal enterprises. When a railroad or a bridge has real utility, it suffices to rely on this fact in arguing in its favor. But if one cannot do this, what does one do? One has recourse to this mumbo jumbo: "We must create jobs for the workers."
This means that the terraces of the Champ-de-Mars*12 are ordered first to be built up and then to be torn down. The great Napoleon, it is said, thought he was doing philanthropic work when he had ditches dug and then filled in. He also said: "What difference does the result make? All we need is to see wealth spread among the laboring classes."
Bastiat, 1848
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 15, 2011 - 07:20pm PT
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"pay people to dig a ditch and then fill it back in again" once again proving that libs have no appreciation for history...this is exactly what fdr did
BS
Skyline Blvd where I live was a one lane dirt logging road until the WPA turned it into the 2 lane scenic highway it is now for nearly 20 miles. At the same time, the Rural Electric Administration brought in the first electric power. My now deceased neighbor used to take the mule with two cans of gas down to the water pump to supply water to their house. After electrification all he had to do was throw a switch. It enabled them to pump enough water to put in a commercial orchard.
A modern highway and power system that are still in use 75 years later. This brought many new homes, hundreds now. Which all pay property taxes and electric bills.
The American West infrastructure was significantly improved by the New Deal programs. You can argue about whether it was necessary to get us out of the Depression or whether money could have been better spent elsewhere, or not at all.
You cannot claim that no lasting good was done.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 15, 2011 - 07:31pm PT
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Both "Silent Cal" and Hoover had almost identical market crashes on their watch.
Coolidge slashed Federal spending, lowered tax rates and the economy recovered in six months or so.
Hoover raised Tariffs and amplified his crash. (shades of Bush and TARP I)
FDR continued the Keynesian fallacy and guaranteed ten years of hardship.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Aug 15, 2011 - 07:46pm PT
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Your typical Liberal wakes up in the morning thinking: I need a little bit more Government intrusion in my life......
and guess who is working to make that dream come true?
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Aug 15, 2011 - 08:03pm PT
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Breakfast, lunch, and dinner of champions!
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 15, 2011 - 08:05pm PT
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this is exactly what fdr did and is exactly why unemployment was still in the upper 20s in 1938 BS again. Unemployment was never above about 22%
Here's US unemployment in the period: the pink is the Depression, starting in 1929.
FDR took office in 1933 with approx 22% unemployment, the highest ever. It came down to about 12% at the start of WWII, all during FDR's administration and BEFORE WWII affected the economy. At the time FDR died, unemployment was about 3%, largely thanks to the massive government spending during the war. All money that went into people's pockets one way or the other.
Unemployment through 2009:
Curious isn't it? Peak unemployment since Reagan was when Clinton took office after 12 years of Repub Presidents. Decreased until the year Shrub took office.
Unrelated to this argument but scary:
Mean duration of US unemployment, in weeks.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 15, 2011 - 08:05pm PT
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No, but clearly you tooled corniss chopper, and gave him a few too many night sticks to the head.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 15, 2011 - 08:12pm PT
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Speaks for itself
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 15, 2011 - 08:19pm PT
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If Buffett wants his fellow billionaires to pay more, have at it. The rates he recommends in his opinion piece won't raise all that much revenue -- and will probably lower it overall, given his recommendation of a payroll tax cut, which isn't necessarily bad. They also differ greatly from those Obama and the Democrats in Congress say they want to impose.
This is mostly symoblism, i.e., "see, we billionaires (and millionaires) share your pain." It's not a serious attempt to raise revenue.
I would note, however, that even Buffett agrees that job one isn't higher taxes, it's lower entitlement spending.
John
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 15, 2011 - 08:21pm PT
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Buffett clearly believes that both raised/more equitable taxes and lower spending are necessary. Any bets on whether he's in favour of a single-payer health care system, and cuts to military spending?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 15, 2011 - 08:21pm PT
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High traverse,
Why don't you color-code your chart to show the Congress who voted for the spending and taxation rates in your chart? Your failure to do that also speaks for itself.
John
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 15, 2011 - 08:23pm PT
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High Traverse,
Facts are stupid things.
At least according to the senile hero of the neo-conservative movement.
Facts are not important. They have no meaning. Forget all the lasting works of the WPA. What's important is to repeat the lie about filling in the ditch until it becomes important.
Forget that we've been gutting regulations and lowering taxes since Reagan's day, and that the result has been a loss of jobs, recession and misery.
What's important is that we keep repeating that if you lower taxes there will be more jobs. Repeat the lie enough and it will become true.
Welcome to the fantasy world of the neo-con.
this is nothing new.
The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them....To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just as long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies — all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth.[
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 15, 2011 - 08:26pm PT
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Why don't you color-code your chart to show the Congress who voted for the spending and taxation rates in your chart? Your failure to do that also speaks for itself.
Now, John, you know very well that the president is as important to the budget as congress. Unless congress has the numbers to over ride a veto, they are beholden to the president, also.\
Not that both parties haen't gotten us into this mess.
In a way, the GOP is better, at least they come right out in the open and tell you they're going to f*#k you over.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 15, 2011 - 08:33pm PT
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John
wow, you actually got the implied part of the graphs, which I didn't state. When the President and Congress work together, the GDP can be managed. Debt decreased under Democratic and Republican presidents until the political climate became polarized or until Reagan's Supply Side Economics, or both.
Clinton had both houses of Congress in his first term, the debt started coming down and then he went along with several Repub Congress actions in his second term including welfare reform and the debt continued to decrease. Shrub's great rise in debt is largely due to his wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and tax reductions. We're now paying the bill. And I didn't make the graphs. Feel fee to contribute your own.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 15, 2011 - 08:50pm PT
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Tax collections skyrocketed during the dot. com option/trading boom of 1996 - 1999. Many people were wiped out, let's hope that doesn't happen again.
Part I: Bingo, high tax collections resulted in decreasing gov't debt.
Part II: Bingo again: The high tax collections didn't cause the bubble, if anything, according to supply side economic theory, high taxes should have diminished the bubble. It was over optimistic investment in high tech and real estate, WITH THE TAX RATES FIGURED IN. Much like the latest bust was over optimistic about financial instruments and real estate (not to mention a really nasty dose of outright deceit and fraud).
It will happen again and again. It's part of the Capitalist cycle. Greed-excitement-absurd optimism-bust-greed..........
ah...but I regress, I am convinced that Greed is Good. An expert told me so.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 15, 2011 - 09:07pm PT
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My last Perot Chart moment of the day: Highest and lowest tax rates compared to public debt
fattrad's tax rate (presumably) as a ratio to bluey's (again presumably) has gone from about 4:1 in 1960 to about 3:1 now.
Note that as the highest tax rates have continually declined relative to the lowest, debt has risen. Lowering the highest tax rates has NOT reduced the debt.
Make your own arguments from that fact.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Aug 15, 2011 - 11:04pm PT
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1st, I can't believe that the democratically controlled congress and president extended the Bush/Obama tax cuts for the rich. They should have allowed them to expire. Yet the treasury has a program wherein they are asking for donations, and I don't see Buffet voluntary stepping up to the plate, he wants it to be mandatory.
I suspect that if Buffet was presented with the idea that millionaires should not be able live off of dividends, especially stock dividends wherein nothing is really created, and pay the 15% max capitol gains tax, he would start squealing like a pig.
Oh, the uber democrat, Howard Schultz, is talking about not giving any money to democrats, and asking other cEOS to not donate to campaigns, until they resolve the budget issues. It's that important to him.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-15/starbucks-schultz-urges-fellow-ceos-to-boycott-campaign-giving.html
You think he would just give money to people campaigning who are committed to fixing this huge problem. Tea party members for instance.
He says: "Schultz Urges Fellow CEOs to Boycott Campaign
“I am asking that all of us forego political contributions until the Congress and the President return to Washington and deliver a fiscally disciplined long-term debt and deficit plan to the American people,” "
.....and it's dated today.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 15, 2011 - 11:40pm PT
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"It will happen again and again. It's part of the Capitalist cycle. Greed-excitement-absurd optimism-bust-greed.........."
This is a prime example of the sort of pessimism that infects the left. Note here the premise that making money is ipso facto "greed".Prosperity and economic growth is likewise suspect because it is based upon the acquisition of wealth,which is always to be considered morally suspect.
So true, Donald. We know for a fact that there has NEVER been a boom and bust cycle in the capitalist system. NEVER! Tell it like it is, bro!
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 16, 2011 - 12:05am PT
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Thompson
If you'd been paying attention, you'd have perceived my sarcastic reference to fattrad, our resident, self proclaimed Capitalist and Stalwart Defender of the Absolutely Free Market. Many times he's said "Greed is Good"
fattrad on August 9 for example:
Greed, for want of a better word, is good. Gordon Gekko http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1379328&msg=1575918#msg1575918
Instead of calling names, present some facts to support your claims. The graphs I posted are all from reputable sources. Of course you're free to argue (with facts) that those sources are disreputable.
Nowhere have I claimed that "making money is ipso-facto greed". I've run my own business for 14 years, ipso-facto I'm really a Capitalist. I know all about paying corporate income taxes.
"reductionist" conservatives have been claiming, without offering evidence for their claims, that raising effective tax rates on the higher tax brackets by closing loopholes and reducing special tax treatments won't decrease the debt. The historical data doesn't support that argument.
The republicans REFUSE to even discuss the effective tax rates on the higher brackets, even with Obama's offer of 4:1 ratio of budget cuts to taxes. Even with Boehner trying to work out a deal.
Asked in the debate this week if any of the Iowa straw poll candidates would accept a 10:1 ratio of budget cuts to revenue increases, they unanimously raised their hands NO.
Senator Tom Coburn (Republican) on the final debt ceiling deal
"It does nothing to address the real drivers of our debt," said Senator Tom Coburn, Republican of Oklahoma, explaining his decision to vote against the bill. "It eliminates no program, consolidates no duplicative programs, cuts no tax earmarks and reforms no entitlement program." (underlined by me)
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 16, 2011 - 12:36am PT
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present some facts to support your claims.
Har-de-har-har!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 16, 2011 - 04:15am PT
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"from each according to his ability to each according to his need" sounds good, but it ignores human nature with its sloth and selfishness. "From each according to his industry to each according to his greed" is how forced income redistribution seems to work in practice, leading to the old East German motto: "we pretend to work, and the government pretends to pay us."
Buffett, for all his headline-grabbing, is at least proposing to raise his own taxes. I wonder how many people on this forum are proposing to raise their own taxes. If there are any, I wonder if any of those are seeking nothing more from government in return for those higher rates. If any are, please speak up!
John
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Jorroh
climber
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Aug 16, 2011 - 05:11am PT
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I do tons of driving John, and I'd like to see higher gas taxes.
I would also like to see a total tax burden that is at least bordering on progressive. The current system is so regressive that its killing demand.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 16, 2011 - 09:05am PT
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"From each according to his industry to a few according to his greed"
Capitalism in a nutshell!
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Aug 16, 2011 - 10:41am PT
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National Sales Tax. Everything.
The more you can afford to spend for your lifestyle, the more tax you pay.
But you get to "decide" what you are willing to pay tax on.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 16, 2011 - 10:41am PT
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Other than that, no I'm not asking for anything except the retirement benefits I've paid into all my life.
Or as one of the GOP presidential candidates referred to them:
"unpaid entitlements"
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Aug 16, 2011 - 10:54am PT
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Holy crow !! I agree with Hedge, let's roll back ALL the Bush tax cuts. Yes, that means I'll be paying more. Let's get something considerably more than the current 50% of us paying some federal income tax too.Let's drop the EIC as well.
So I'll pay an extra 5% on my 60K, and those rich people you bash endlessly will pay another 5% on their million.
Fair enough?
And let's make the government cut two dollars for every increased tax dollar.
The National sales tax is not a good solution.The lower and middle class will pay another tax on virtually everything they earn.
While we are at it, let's make every single person and company receiving any form of assistance re-sign up and then let's scrutinize the app's anew.
Farm subsities, welfare, unemployment, medicaid, everything, anyone getting Social Security under age 62.
What say the unemployment vacation is three weeks, after which time you are assigned to a government task you have to show up for at seven am five days a week unless you can document you are going for a job interview.No show means no dough.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 16, 2011 - 11:18am PT
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cc, do you ever bother to read your links? The common link with Republican voters seems to be lack of true information.
http://www.nytimes.com/1984/03/29/us/gov-lamm-asserts-elderly-if-very-ill-have-duty-to-die.html?sec=health
Editors' Note: November 23, 1993, Tuesday An article on Oct. 1, reporting on Senate testimony by Hillary Rodham Clinton about health care, included a passage about former Gov. Richard D. Lamm of Colorado. It said Mr. Lamm "drew widespread antagonism when he said in 1984 that the elderly, if ill, 'have got a duty to die and get out of the way.' " Similar characterizations of Mr. Lamm's speech of March 27, 1984, were published soon after it was given, and have appeared periodically. But that version of Mr. Lamm's remarks is a distortion, as Governor Lamm complained in 1984. He said then that insufficient attention to detail by the news media had led to a misinterpretation. An editorial in The Times on March 31, 1984, and articles on April 1, April 4, June 30 and Sept. 5 of that year reported on criticism generated by his speech or included accounts of his statements, but noted that his remarks had been misconstrued. Nevertheless incorrect accounts appeared in The Times on March 29, 1984; April 1, 1984; April 18, 1984; May 11, 1984; Jan. 5, 1985; Jan. 18, 1985; Aug. 18, 1985, and Aug. 20, 1985. In a letter dated Oct. 8, 1993, Mr. Lamm provided excerpts from the 1984 speech, in which he spoke philosophically about the terminally ill of any age, about the extraordinary costs of high-technology medicine and about the ability of medical science to stave off death far beyond considerations of quality of life. After saying that society should be talking about the ethical implications, Mr. Lamm said, according to the excerpts: "We've got a duty to die and get out of the way with all of our machines and artificial hearts and everything else like that and let the other society, our kids, build a reasonable life." In his letter last month, Mr. Lamm wrote that he never said "the elderly or the terminally ill have a duty to die," and he added, "I was essentially raising a general statement about the human condition, not beating up on the elderly."
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Aug 16, 2011 - 11:33am PT
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Gary - Weak rebuttal there. You know full well that the original remarks
came from the Gov's heart and only after the public outrage they caused did he and his advisers try the tactic of "I misspoke"
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 16, 2011 - 02:05pm PT
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Wow -- I didn't expect to see so many serious responses to my somewhat rhetorical question. Thanks to all of you -- including several people with whom I would normally disagree (jghedge in particular) for giving truly truly patriotic (meaning what they believe is in our country's -- and not necessarily one political position's) responses. I think you're right -- we need to start paying down the debt now to avoid serious trouble later. I can quibble over what to do when, but I wish our political leaders could see the general agreement a wildly contentious group of climbers have concerning our needed future direction.
John
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malabarista
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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Aug 16, 2011 - 03:04pm PT
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Donald Thompson Lebowski I presume?
"Since you have failed to achieve, even in the modest task that was your charge, since you have stolen my money, since you have unrepentantly betrayed my trust.I have no choice but to tell these bums to do whatever is necessary to recover their money from you,Jeffrey Lebowski. And with Brandt as my witness, I will tell you this: Any further harm visited upon Bunny, will be visited tenfold upon your head."
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 16, 2011 - 03:23pm PT
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Thompson
cite your sources.
This is from the Federal Reserve (you know, those Socialistic Government Bureaucrats): Ratio of total jobs to population. The red curve is the US, the blue curve is Texas. Texas curve is lower because they've got a high birthrate and high proportion of children.
If you can see a difference in trends, please point it out.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 16, 2011 - 03:29pm PT
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For those who've forgotten their Roman history
"An imbalance between rich and poor is the oldest and most fatal ailment of all republics." - Plutarch Thanks to a friend for sending this to me just today.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 16, 2011 - 03:38pm PT
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Yep, more minimum wage, no benefits jobs, that's what we need.
And Donald, with a little research you might find the average Russkie did better under communism. Until Stalin stole the revolution.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 16, 2011 - 03:51pm PT
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,Plutarch was no doubt refering to slavery and the increasing ratio of slaves to freemen, which was always a concern of the Roman aristocracy,for obvious reasons I'm not going to argue your assumption "no doubt".
So what about increasing numbers of workers who can't make ends meet, unemployed workers and the economic oligarchies (individuals and companies) who continue to increase their proportion of total wealth? Is this a legitimate concern for social stability? Especially as it becomes more and more apparent that the wealthy and big corporations have a disproportionate political voice?
or get out of the country Sounds like the Right Wing when I was in University "My country, love it or leave it"
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 16, 2011 - 05:15pm PT
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So what about increasing numbers of workers who can't make ends meet, unemployed workers and the economic oligarchies (individuals and companies) who continue to increase their proportion of total wealth?
It's the Republican dream!
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Jorroh
climber
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Aug 16, 2011 - 05:35pm PT
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To bored to get your thoughts together to dispute the idea Donald?.... prefer just to call people names?
Wealth and political power are very concentrated in America, you can call it what the f*#k you want, but its a fact.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Aug 16, 2011 - 07:40pm PT
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former enron adviser and libs' favorite economist had this to say about europe in 2010:
"The real lesson from Europe is actually the opposite of what conservatives claim: Europe is an economic success, and that success shows that social democracy works."--Paul Krugman, New York Times, Jan. 10, 2010
so, who's right about america? hint: the same people are right about europe, too
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Aug 16, 2011 - 07:50pm PT
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Yet are they like number 4 in GDP? And a high standard of living too.
I lived in Germany for a year. They've got it figured out. In general, the focus there for almost anything is on the long term (the opposite of the US) and Germans use wise planning and efficiency to achieve long term goals.
That's so far from current US business interests which is basically what is running this great land into the ground right now. Cheap and right now, that's the 'merican way.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 16, 2011 - 08:28pm PT
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bookworm, I'm trying to understand your post? You are now a social democrat?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 16, 2011 - 08:30pm PT
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All Americans are liberal democrats, by definition - your country is a liberal democracy. Some also call themselves Democrats, Republicans or even tea baggers, but that's just details. Same with those who call themselves progressives or social democrats.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Aug 16, 2011 - 09:35pm PT
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All Americans are Conservative Republicans, by definition - our country is a free Republic. Unfortunately some are also calling themselves welfare looting scumbag leaching thieves and are confessing to being wholly anti-American: so be it.
Will you liberals lay down and die because you are to lazy to get up and work for a living?
(We hope so)
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 16, 2011 - 10:01pm PT
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Unfortunately some are also calling themselves welfare looting scumbag leaching thieves and are confessing to being wholly anti-American: so be it.
Yeah, that's the nature of capitalists. Any suggestions on getting those scum to fend for themselves?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 16, 2011 - 10:02pm PT
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Not everyone who lives in a 'red' state, and not every banker and corporate 'titan', is a "welfare looting scumbag leaching thief". Let's not stereotype excessively, eh?
Although they all live in that great liberal democratic country, the United States of America. Just read your constitution, in particular your bill of rights. One of the most liberal in the world.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 16, 2011 - 10:38pm PT
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Mont Gum Me burns died and didn't take any of his money with him...Yeah , what good is it..? RJ
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 16, 2011 - 10:39pm PT
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Donald...surely you feign illness..?
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 16, 2011 - 10:52pm PT
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More like conservative revisionism. In 1776 the conservatives fought for the King. When Ben Franklin said we shall all hang together or we will certainly hang separately, the ones who wanted to hang the Founding Fathers were the conservatives.
Why you right wingers claim to be so patriotic is beyond me.
Why do I feel ill right now?
Maybe you're starting to realize the truth, that you've been bamboozled all these years. Sometimes the truth hurts.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 16, 2011 - 11:00pm PT
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Why you right wingers claim to be so patriotic is beyond me.
It's all about independence from the gov't and freewill. Not reliance on the gov't or a King to fend for us.
We just want the freewill to choose our own path DESPITE the gov't, not because of it.
We want a minimal gov't to serve just basic functions, as designed in the constitution.
The gov't is not intended to be a nanny. But an overseer of justice between the States and to protect the borders against enemies foreign and within. It is to maintain the country. And the peace therein.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 16, 2011 - 11:05pm PT
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Have you ever read the Federalist Papers Gary?
How about some of the anti federalist papers?
Do you even have a clue?
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 17, 2011 - 12:49am PT
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No, not redefine, but to win it back, Donald. Starting in the '70s Wall Street launched an attack on America and Americans that continues to this day.
They've destroyed our industrial base, broken the worker and are now breaking the middle class, all for short term gain. They are the nihilists. They don't believe in the future.
It's class warfare all right.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 17, 2011 - 01:35am PT
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Starting in the '70s Wall Street launched an attack on America and Americans that continues to this day.
Gary, are you talking about the 1970's? Are you talking about the Wall Street in New York? If so, our memories differ greatly, or our words don't mean the same things.
The 1970's I remember were the decade of absolute stagnation on Wall Street. The Dow was so low in 1979 that we though if it reached 800, it was a bull market. I remember almost 40% capital gains rates in 1976-77, a carryover basis at death (repealed before it went into effect, since someone figured out that Ouija Boards to find out what the decedent paid might not go over well), confiscatory income and estate tax rates, my first real housing bubble, runaway inflation, enormous interest rates, and awful unemployment -- all with the Watergate Congress, Jerry Clown, Jimmy Carter and the rest of the odious left-wing Democrats in charge.
It was certainly a horrible time for America, but not because of Wall Street.
John
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Aug 17, 2011 - 02:00pm PT
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These are the same America -dissers who inhabited the 60s, now they are attempting to re-define traditional America. Laughable and sad. You spew nothing but vitriol, spite and venom on this and other forums.
Are you a Fox News mouthpiece?
Or an unrepentent John Bircher?
You're certainly not William F Buckley nor even George Will
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 17, 2011 - 02:04pm PT
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Yes, John, the '70s. That's when Wall Street decided the time was ripe to roll back the New Deal. It wasn't hidden, but written up in articles in business sections of the papers. They figured working people were making too good of a living, they could buy a house, send their kids to school, etc.
So it goes.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 17, 2011 - 03:18pm PT
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could end our country
Where the f$%& is it going to go? Nobody knows, it will just "end".
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 17, 2011 - 03:49pm PT
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DMT,
I was responding to my fellow pianist's allegation that Wall Street started a "war on America" in the 1970's. I did not use Wall Street's health to measure anything else. Gary has since clarified what he meant, viz. that this was the decade when Wall Street started trying to dismantle the New Deal. My own belief is that Wall Street started that in 1933.
John
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 17, 2011 - 04:08pm PT
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My own belief is that Wall Street started that in 1933.
Good point, John.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 17, 2011 - 06:02pm PT
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Note that I want my taxes raised to pay for things done by an administration I fundamentally disagreed with and which lied us into a $2 trillion dollar war that wrecked our economy. But regardless how I feel about it, it still has to be paid for. That's how democracy works - you either go along with majority rule, or move someplace else.
 jghedge
To which an arrogant DT replies:
Either agree with the Liberal Democrats or get out of the country.
Donald Thompson
Man that guy Donald. Just a powerful wealth of intellect and savvy one-liners. He really has his thumb on the pulse of America, that boy.
Too bad his reading comprehension is at the spot where the Republicans want it: simple confusion of ideas and facts.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Aug 17, 2011 - 07:45pm PT
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jay carney gives a lesson on "creating jobs":
Meckler: I understand why extending unemployment insurance provides relief to people who need it, but how does it create jobs?
Carney: Oh, it is by--I would expect a reporter from The Wall Street Journal would know this as part of the entrance exam just to get on the paper. But the--no, seriously. It is one of the most direct ways to infuse money into the economy because people who are unemployed and obviously aren't earning a paycheck are going to spend the money that they get. They're not going to save it; they're going to spend it. And unemployment insurance, that money goes directly back into the economy dollar for dollar virtually. So it is--and when it goes back in the economy, it means that everywhere that those people--every place that that money is spent has added business. And that creates growth and income for businesses that then lead them to making decisions about job--more hiring.
So there are few other ways that can more directly put money into the economy than providing unemployment insurance.
Meckler: And why since it's been extended have we seen unemployment not drop, in fact?
Carney: Well, look, this is "what would have happened" argument. But we have seen is, what is it, 2.4 million private sector jobs created. And this year there's--I mean, again, this is not just--I encourage you, and I know that you all have good contacts in that world, but economic analysts wholly unaffiliated with this administration would tell you, and told you back late last year, that the combination of the payroll tax cut and extension of unemployment insurance would have a direct, measurable impact on job creation, so that of the jobs created this year, a certain number--however many tens or hundreds of thousands of jobs--can be attributed to those actions taken and pushed by the president last year, which is why he feels so strongly they ought to be done again as we continue to emerge from this recession.
So that's why he believes very strongly we ought to extend the payroll tax and extend unemployment insurance.
Meckler: And is the best argument that you can put forward to people for these things that if we do this again, it won't necessarily get any better, but it won't get any worse--
Carney: Laura, you know that's not how it works.
what does former enron adviser and libs' favorite economist (and 2nd--or is it 3rd--favorite nobel laureate) paul krugman have to say about this?
from his TEXTBOOK on economics:
"public policy designed to help workers who lose their jobs can lead to structural unemployment as an unintended side effect."
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 17, 2011 - 07:49pm PT
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With 20% of American children now living below the poverty line - thank god we at least won the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and are assured the money was well spent.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 17, 2011 - 09:11pm PT
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You libs will love this one, now Letterman is on the death list:
fatty,
you are lucky that they dont read the taco....we would hate to lose you to jihadists....or would we?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Aug 17, 2011 - 09:54pm PT
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To Donald, bluey and the other tea baggers.
"Did u know: "race car" spelled backwards spells "race car"?..."Eat" is the only word that, if u move the 1st letter to last, it spells its own past tense, "ate"?...& if u rearrange the letters in "Tea Party Republicans" & add a few more letters, u get: Shut the f*#k up u free-loading, progress-blocking, benefit-grabbing, resource-sucking, violent hypocrites,& deal with the fact that u nearly wrecked the country under Bush & that our president is black, so get over it."
From a friend facebook page...classic!
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Aug 17, 2011 - 10:10pm PT
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Donald wrote: Clear proof of self-loathing.
It is clear proof that you are a hypocrite.
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Douglas Rhiner
Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
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Aug 17, 2011 - 10:23pm PT
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Donald,
Saw your likeness on the road the other day.......
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Quick Nick
Trad climber
Huntington Beach, CA
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Aug 17, 2011 - 10:28pm PT
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True, however, if you don't put any thought into it. Pure Bliss!!!
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Quick Nick
Trad climber
Huntington Beach, CA
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Aug 17, 2011 - 10:42pm PT
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Let's climb pal!
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Quick Nick
Trad climber
Huntington Beach, CA
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Aug 17, 2011 - 10:49pm PT
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Silly, when you are done training in the gym, let's go. I'm all about belaying you, as long as you don't hurt my feelings.
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Quick Nick
Trad climber
Huntington Beach, CA
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Aug 17, 2011 - 10:54pm PT
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2 days new. That is beside the point. I wanna climb. You however want to write a journal. Although I have a big mouth, I can try to keep it shut when bugs w/ wings are around. Dude, do you want to climb, we seem to be pretty close on the map. Even Mt. Rub.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 17, 2011 - 10:58pm PT
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Mt. Rub..? You'd rub Donalds butt..?
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Quick Nick
Trad climber
Huntington Beach, CA
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Aug 17, 2011 - 11:02pm PT
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If there is a spot for an anchor? Why not? You planning on getting a 2nd chance at this thing??
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Quick Nick
Trad climber
Huntington Beach, CA
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Aug 17, 2011 - 11:02pm PT
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Deal with your trust issues buddy. Your opion of me is none of my business.
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Quick Nick
Trad climber
Huntington Beach, CA
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Aug 17, 2011 - 11:05pm PT
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Back in the day? Well, last I checked it's now. I'd be stoked to hear what has lead (no pun) you to this post. Only one way, my fingers hurt from typing, whaa.
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Quick Nick
Trad climber
Huntington Beach, CA
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Aug 17, 2011 - 11:18pm PT
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Fulls a new found friend has allowed me to borrow his newest (2005) book. At this time, I will only lead at schoolhouse rock, however, I'd be stoked to meet anyone out there, as long as you leave the spray paint at home.
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Quick Nick
Trad climber
Huntington Beach, CA
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Aug 17, 2011 - 11:23pm PT
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Are we climbing then?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 17, 2011 - 11:24pm PT
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Donald..Use to boulder naked there on occasion hoping for some RUB...
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Quick Nick
Trad climber
Huntington Beach, CA
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Aug 17, 2011 - 11:26pm PT
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This world would be perfect, w/o friction. However your last statement just made me reconsider. I listen well when important. I aspire to solo a big wall w/in a year, but no rush on that, I'm just enjoying what is happening now. You from the 70' Don?
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Quick Nick
Trad climber
Huntington Beach, CA
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Aug 17, 2011 - 11:30pm PT
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Bro, I get it, you into rub. I have to stare a a freakin screen all day tomorrow. Are we meetin?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 17, 2011 - 11:36pm PT
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Talking dog-leg on crack...
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Quick Nick
Trad climber
Huntington Beach, CA
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Aug 17, 2011 - 11:38pm PT
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Todd is just as human as you and I, just because he picked me up like a can on the side of the road is senseless. I obviously am in the wrong forum. I want to climb!!! Please send me a phone number (anyone) who would like to get gripped one weekend. Thank you!
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Captain...or Skully
climber
or some such
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Aug 17, 2011 - 11:38pm PT
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I'm thinkin' that climbin' with a talkin' dog would be, in fact...Radness.
Your imaginary creature hit the nail right on the head.
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Quick Nick
Trad climber
Huntington Beach, CA
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Aug 17, 2011 - 11:40pm PT
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Fulls Skully! I think I have written/said more here than routes in the last year!
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Quick Nick
Trad climber
Huntington Beach, CA
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Aug 17, 2011 - 11:40pm PT
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If only dogs could clean gear.
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Quick Nick
Trad climber
Huntington Beach, CA
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Aug 17, 2011 - 11:42pm PT
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I know thus far, great typer. No disrespect intended Dog. I'd just rather make plans is all. Please be direct if you are not interested! Cheers!
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Quick Nick
Trad climber
Huntington Beach, CA
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Aug 17, 2011 - 11:44pm PT
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Is that a yes to my invite of meeting at some crag and putting an end to this verbiage we seem to enjoy sharing at the moment?
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Quick Nick
Trad climber
Huntington Beach, CA
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Aug 17, 2011 - 11:51pm PT
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Lol. I would imagine you can send me an email. Whoever that was that said "it's all good," it never stopped. Don't mind read, I have enough troulbe reading my own.
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Quick Nick
Trad climber
Huntington Beach, CA
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Aug 17, 2011 - 11:54pm PT
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More routes than I can count, not meaning many, I just suck at math. As far as Mr. Gordo, words cannot explain what he has taught me, and I have no idea how many routes, I gotta stop taking valium on my way home, or at least write this sht down.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
or some such
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Aug 17, 2011 - 11:56pm PT
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I'm stoked that the 'tardliness has been co-opted by......climbing.
Awesome!!!!6!!!!
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Quick Nick
Trad climber
Huntington Beach, CA
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Aug 17, 2011 - 11:57pm PT
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Next trip out to the Quarry. I will never pass up an op. to cruise out to Josh and be schooled by these guys.
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Quick Nick
Trad climber
Huntington Beach, CA
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Aug 17, 2011 - 11:58pm PT
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Buy some prints from Epi's website, or send a money order to Todd. I'll share stories after payment is received.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Aug 19, 2011 - 11:19am PT
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so-called "green jobs" stimulus a complete bust, says...
wait for it...
waaaaaaiiiiit...
the NEW YORK TIMES???
well, i guess the old gray lady 1) can't be blamed for being so slow and 2) still manages to get one right every now and then
how much do you want to bet, nyt publishes an editorial calling for more green jobs programs within a week?
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/19/us/19bcgreen.html?_r=1
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Aug 20, 2011 - 07:34am PT
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before you continue the "obama inherited this mess" defense, remember that he asked for, campaigned for, and promised for the opportunity to take over the "mess"...and you VOTED to give him that opportunity
Change for the Worse
Just as he promised, Obama has fundamentally transformed America.
By PETE DU PONT
The Standard & Poor's downgrade of U.S. debt is the latest fruit of the Obama administration's big-government policies. Ask Americans how the country is doing, and the response is a vote of no confidence. In August 2009, 34% of likely voters said the country was headed in the right direction. A month ago that proportion had declined to 25%, and last week only 16% thought so. Rasmussen's mid-August poll found that 4% of adults rate the economy as good or excellent, and 66% think we are doing poorly.
Just before his election as president, Barack Obama declared that "we are five days from fundamentally transforming America." He has made good on that promise. Huge increases in federal spending—up 28% in just three years—were the beginning. Putting health care—17% of the American economy—under Washington's control was next. Government control of business is expanding too: 379 new government business rules were added in July alone, according to Sen. John Barrasso of Wyoming. Federal government debt held by the public rose from $6 trillion (40% of GDP) in 2008 to $9 trillion (62%) in 2010, The Congressional Budget Office says it could reach 200% by 2037, if the economy doesn't collapse first.
Mr. Obama's original budget for fiscal 2012 would have more than doubled the debt held by the public, from 2010's $9 trillion to $19 trillion in 2021. Politico reports that by the 2013 inauguration, the government will have taken on addition debt to the tune of "$22,500 for every man, woman, and child in the nation" during Mr. Obama's tenure. Some 45 million Americans, or 1 in 7, receive food stamps, up from less than 30 million a few years ago. Finally, in the previous two years our annual economic growth after inflation has averaged only 1.3% annually, just about half our past 10-year average of 2.5%. In the first half of this year, it was running at an annual rate of 0.8%.
The White House says unemployment will decline to 8.25% this year, though it may well remain above 9%. Looking back at the past 50 years, no president has been re-elected when unemployment was higher than 7.2%.
One of the Obama administration's central (and most damaging) beliefs is that tax rates must be raised for what President Obama calls "millionaires and billionaires," which he defines to include individuals and small businesses making as little as $200,000. Interestingly, Christina Romer, who was chairman of Mr. Obama's Council of Economic Advisors, has done some research on the impact of tax increases, and concluded that increasing taxes by 1% of GDP for deficit-reduction purposes leads to a 3% reduction in GDP.
Raising taxes on affluent taxpayers is not just bad economics, it's unfair. The Tax Foundation has pointed out that in 2009 taxpayers earning over $200,000 paid half of all income taxes, even though they had earned just 25% of adjusted gross income. On the other hand, more that 58 million taxpayers, around 42% of tax filers, paid no income tax at all. Add in the money some of them receive in refundable child care tax credits, the Making Work Pay program and the Earned Income Tax Credit, and it is obvious that ratcheting up taxes on higher income taxpayers would just exacerbate this inequity.
Growing dissatisfaction, skyrocketing spending, a weak economy, and a real debate about tax hikes all suggest that the 2012 presidential election will be very different from the 2008 Obama victory. A recent Pew report finds that 41% of voters would like to see Obama re-elected, and 40% would prefer a Republican win in 2012. That one-point Obama lead was down from 11 points in May. The President's approval rating from January through June averaged 47%. Earlier this month, according to Gallup, it fell to 39%. Mr. Obama is unlikely to win re-election unless that number improves.
He faces three major challenge. The first is a rift with business leaders, who resent being scapegoated. They may work hard to raise campaign money for Mr. Obama's opponent.
The second is the increasing disappointment of independent voters, who are rightly unhappy with higher spending, higher taxes, ObamaCare, a lack of progress on trade, increased restrictions on the energy supply, and the near-commandeering of the auto and banking industries, all of which amount to an effort to Europeanize America, just as European welfare states are facing their own crisis
His latest challenge may well be from Texas Gov. Rick Perry's fresh presidential campaign speech: "The fact is, for nearly three years President Obama has been downgrading American jobs, he's been downgrading our standing in the world, he's been downgrading our financial stability, he's been downgrading our confidence and downgrading the hope for a better future for our children. That's a fact." Indeed it is, and it's a fact that bodes ill for the future of America.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 20, 2011 - 01:08pm PT
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Fattrad...Expecting Obama to fix the recession in 2 years is pure fantasy and akin to beleiving in the tooth fairy..What exactly has changed from 2007 when the recession was starting under Bush.....? .Nothing...! The tax breaks for the rich , which are suppose to create jobs for the middle class and poor , have done nothing to pull us out of the recession , yet the conservatives keep harping on this unproven remedy..?...Nothing has changed and the Republicans continue to control economic policy by stonewalling Democratic proposals as the recession continues...The Republicans are getting everything they need...They don't want the recession to end , because their base , the rich , are holding all the coins...So stop whining about the recession...The republicans have the rest of the world by the throat right where they want us...
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 20, 2011 - 01:33pm PT
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Donny...The biggest whiners and victims are the rich.....How can they maintain their comfortable lifestyle if medicare and SS won't get cut...? Whaa...!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 20, 2011 - 01:39pm PT
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 20, 2011 - 03:08pm PT
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Donny...I'm a moderate democrat but by your definition , anyone that isn't a member of the john birch society i'm thorwn into the black and white description of liberal... there is class warfare...glad you noticed...I've been paying into social security since i was 13 when i acted in a commerical with the LA Lakers....I am entitled to it because i have invested in it...That's not an entitlement anymore than a manipulated mortgage package...The wall street bailout was an entitlement program for the ....wealthy...Let's keep things in perspective...Stop worshipping the man behind the curtain Rove..
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Aug 20, 2011 - 03:47pm PT
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how does barry plan to EXTEND america's financial crisis? by killing jobs and causing energy prices to "necessarily skyrocket"
http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=582160&p=1
ok, libs, explain why barry thinks it's ok to give brazil (where there are fewer environmental protections) a billion dollars for offshore drilling but limit our own offshore drilling
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 20, 2011 - 03:53pm PT
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What a dumb fuk:
Rick Perry continued to voice skepticism about evolution during a campaign stop in South Carolina Friday, telling a supporter "God is how we got here."
On Thursday, in New Hampshire, Perry told a woman and her son that he regarded evolution as "a theory that's out there" and one that's "got some gaps in it.”
When a woman in South Carolina congratulated him for his remarks Friday, Perry replied “Well, God is how we got here. God may have done it in the blink of the eye or he may have done it over this long period of time, I don't know. But I know how it got started."
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 20, 2011 - 04:43pm PT
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"But i know how it got started"......Perry is all knowing , all powerful... cheerleading and whipping the chimpanzees into a petulant frenzy...then he'll screw them hard...Suckers...!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 20, 2011 - 04:57pm PT
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 20, 2011 - 04:57pm PT
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apogee
climber
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Aug 20, 2011 - 06:59pm PT
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I wish Hillary had won.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 20, 2011 - 07:20pm PT
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My, my, my
It's all about SPENDING, isn't it?
Let's take a quick look at who spends more, Repubs or Dems:
President Bush increased government spending more than any of the six presidents preceding him, including LBJ. In his last term in office, President Bush increased discretionary outlays by an estimated 48.6 percent.
During his eight years in office, President Bush spent almost twice as much as his predecessor, President Clinton. Adjusted for inflation, in eight years, President Clinton increased the federal budget by 11 percent. In eight years, President Bush increased it by a whopping 104 percent.
One reason offered for these large budget increases is that entitlement programs are growing rapidly. Although Social Security and Medicare spending growth outpaced most other programs in the mid-1990s, spending growth in discretionary programs has accelerated in the last 15 years, especially during Bush’s two terms. Between FY2002 and FY2009, discretionary spending rose 96 percent.**
http://mercatus.org/publication/spending-under-president-george-w-bush
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jstan
climber
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Aug 20, 2011 - 07:20pm PT
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 20, 2011 - 07:20pm PT
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Aug 23, 2011 - 10:45am PT
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so barry has begun touting THREE trade deals and makes two claims: 1) these deals create jobs in u.s. markets and 2) the deals are languishing because of the do-nothing congress (and, remember, when barry says, "congress", he means republicans)
once: barry has not even sent the deals to congress for a vote
twice: even if he does send the deals to congress, only the senate matters because ONLY the senate can ratify treaties--trade, peace, or otherwise--and the senate, as we well know, is controlled by the DEMOCRATS, which means barry, theoretically, could have had these trade deals passed anytime in the last 30 months
three times an idiot: these trade deals--all three--were negotiated and signed by GEORGE BUSH (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=14109943 )who sent ALL THREE deals to congress, which refused to advance any of them...and guess who controlled congress when bush sent these deals for a vote...
wait for it...
yes, the DEMOCRATS, including a FILIBUSTER-PROOF MAJORITY for the first 2 years of barry's reign...oops...i mean, er, administration
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Aug 23, 2011 - 04:11pm PT
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ok, ok, ok
i will always give barry credit where he deserves it...i admit it, barry is 3x better than W...see, it took W 96 months to add 4 TRILLION to the debt whereas barry only needed 31 months...in fact, that makes barry better than ALL OTHER PRESIDENTS
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20095704-503544.html
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 23, 2011 - 05:10pm PT
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Of course, in typical repub false-propaganda style, the article makes no mention of the fact that more than half of the debt incurred "under Obama" includes 2009 spending, which as all but Pathetic Repub Idiots know, was part of Bush's last budget.
Proof (again) that all repubs have is lies...because they can't handle the truth.
When has the current (Dem) Congress actually passed a spending budget? How long has it been?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 23, 2011 - 05:19pm PT
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The Repubs have had the House for 8 months. The Dems had BOTH HOUSES for 2 years prior....
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 23, 2011 - 06:37pm PT
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 23, 2011 - 07:12pm PT
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Very good, DT! I just hope it doesn't come true.
John
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 23, 2011 - 07:22pm PT
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The American Sociological Association identified the four primary characteristics most associated with those Americans sympathetic to the Tea Party: “Authoritarianism, ontological insecurity (fear of change), libertarianism and nativism.”
Shocker, that.
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