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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 17, 2011 - 12:42am PT
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Were both M. Gud hangers used on a single climb?
Or maybe for a non climbing event?
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Acer
Big Wall climber
AZ
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Jul 17, 2011 - 04:11am PT
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Right on. Thanks again for the AZ and WB stuff.
There is more Big Wired Bliss cams to come.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2011 - 05:13am PT
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ncrockclimber - you may want to purchase the mini-guides if you are looking for information on Queen Creek Canyon. The 1991 Guidebook is a very very outdated guide to the area. The bigger 1996 Guidebook is hard to find and you may pay a big cost to obtain it. Years ago one sold for $751 on ebay. Not from me but from some other lucky seller. The book is valued between $60 - $80 in reality and can be found on Amazon.com. The smaller mini-guides sell for $5 each at local climbing stores in Phoenix.
Jaybro - I love your curiosity on the M.GUD Hanger. It was not used on a climb but was bolted down to something. But where? Hmmm......
Acer - I know Mike Clifton (past owner of Wired Bliss) has/had a #5 Buddie cam.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Jul 17, 2011 - 12:04pm PT
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That Mace anchor is really something! I encountered it with the Steel Monkey a while back and at first glance thought it was one of those Sigg Tourister (?) cooksets from back in the day. Half expected to see it perched on a Svea 123!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2011 - 07:04pm PT
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I was at the new AZ Hiking Shack today which is at Thomas and 33rd street in Phoenix. I couldn't believe it but Ed Viesturs was there so I got a photo with him.
At 112 degrees today in Phoenix, and he still wears his zero below suit.
He really is extreme!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 17, 2011 - 08:00pm PT
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Maybe they sealed a box containing a tool the Steve Grossman might use for pasting heads, but has more nefarius uses?
Isn't it time for dinner yet?
Acer keep me in the loop for the larger cams, for when they become availible, there is a serious lack of industry support in this area
Jaybrofivethirteenatmacdotcalm
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jul 17, 2011 - 08:12pm PT
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Lots of great info about the Mace. Fantastic that you have all this old equipment from the climb. Thanks!
Re. the date of the first ascent:
When I interviewed him for my Desert Towers book, Dave Rearick was certain it was just before Christmas, 1959.
Tim Toula, author of Cheap Way to Fly, has
1957, which he says came from information from a local climbing historian,
George Bain.
Bob Kamps' website has Dec 30, 1959. This would seem to buttress 1959 as the
correct year, but the day cannot be correct, as the ascent was evidently on a
Sunday (Rearick told me Yvon missed out on the summit to go to church) and Dec 30 1959 was not a Sunday.
My own guess is the ascent was Dec 20, 1959, as this date was a Sunday, it fits
with Rearick's timeline of climbing the Mace then climbing Ormes' Rib on
Shiprock on Christmas Day. My big assumption here is that the "30" is perhaps a
typo for "20," but of course I'm somewhat guessing here.
There's no Mace report in the American Alpine Journals for the relevant years.
An email from Yvon suggested that he agreed with 1959, also.
But maybe there's other info I don't know about?????????
Cheers,
Crusher
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frog-e
Trad climber
Imperial Beach California
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Jul 17, 2011 - 10:08pm PT
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totally great thread Marty!!
You've posted some really fun stuff!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2011 - 10:15pm PT
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crunch, I have tossed this FA date around for some time now. I went back to 1957 since the books say this date. I actually heard that there was a postcard written by the FA team which showed the exact date being in 1958. I can't find the postcard yet. For sure it was climbed in the late 1950s and Chouinard missed out due to church. Climbing the Mace in December would be quite cold!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2011 - 10:20pm PT
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HISTORY LESSON VOL 2 - ANSWERS
Unknown #1 - What generation Camalot #4 is this? How do you know?
Answer: guesses but not correct. Camalot shown is 6th Generation. The way you know is the plastic stem is a single piece plastic tubing where there is a molded stopper ring to hold up the finger trigger.
Generation 1: 1987 Chouinard double stem but three separate plastic pieces making the "U" shape.
Generation 2: 1989 Chouinard double stem but single plastic piece making the "U" shape.
Generation 3: 1990 Black Diamond double stem but single plastic piece making up the "U" shape.
Generation 4: 1996 Black Diamond single stem with single one piece tubing. No trigger stop where finger trigger can fall into the lobes.
Generation 5: 1997 Black Diamond single stem with three pieces creating the single tubing. Aluminum ring added for a trigger stop.
Generation 6: 2001 Black Diamond single stem with one piece tubing with trigger stop molded into it.
Then Generation 7 is the newer C4 Camalots which were created in 2005.
Unknown #2 - Who made this piton? What state is the person from?
Answer: no guesses. Dwight Lavender Piton circa 1931 from Colorado. Lavender was a geology student whose family owned a ranch near the San Juan Mountains in Colorado. Lavender and friends learned climbing techniques and piton usage through European climbing manuals but there were no pitons made in America at that time. So Lavender made up a batch of his own design in the engineering workshop at Stanford University. These pitons had an open eye which admitted the rope. The opening was closed by hammering the eye flush with the rock. This history is in the book "Climbing In North America by Chris Jones page 106. I obtained this piton through Rusty Baillie who found it while free soloing "Sneffels" north face in Colorado. Rusty told me it was a Lavander pin. While Rusty was rebolting Granite Mountain in Prescott, I called and asked him if somehow I could obtain some of the old replaced bolts by donating new hangers and bolts to him for free. He said "NO" because he was confident that Prescott climbers would donate monies to the rebolting cause. Even though he advertised his need, nobody came forward. I called Rusty years later and asked again for the old bolts for my collection. This time we met in Prescott at his small home/apartment and had lunch. He said that since I was the only one to help on his project by giving him something, he donated a shoebox of all of the treasures he had found, and items he replaced. I am still blown away of his gift and the many incredible items that were in his shoebox. Rusty has really cool handwriting!
Unknown #3 - What company made these? What are they called?
Answer: guesses but not correct. Company is Fixe Hardware and the devices are called Encaix. I believe they are from the early 1990s, but I will check with Stephane on the Circa. Cool devices but a slight design flaw. The webbing moves on the adjustment ring, and when fully opened the climber is attached to the center of the device and not at the end, where it would be stronger like on a Big Bro Device. In my observation, the device would collapse if the climber took a big fall onto it if it was fully opened. However I think it is a super cool device. Donated by Stephane Pennequin and Kevin Daniels. Kevin said his was a prototype.
Unknown #4 - Who made this Hanger? What state are they commonly found in?
Answer: Acer is first with Bandito Hangers, Jaybro is first with Arizona. The Banditos were a group of climbers from Arizona that left their signature aluminum hangers on the routes that they First Ascended. They climbed all over the country as well. I am foggy on the Bandito history but I know that Climbing Magazine covered an article on them. Banditos started in the mid 1970s.
BONUS - What is the M.GUD stamp for?
Answer: Jaybro correctly guessed - "Marshall Good," in association with Jim Waugh. In the early 1980s, Jim was policing the new route development around the Phoenix area. When new routes were established, Jim would remove what he believed were unnecessary bolts on the routes, especially top anchor bolts causing the climbers to walk off of the routes. Of course sometime around 1987 the new style "Sport Anchors On Each Route Theory" became acceptable. The Banditos were quite pissed off at Jim so they created "No GUD" hangers as a statement against Jim to keep him away from their bolted routes. One particular day, the Banditos bolted Jim's front door shut so he could not get out of his apartment. Two M.GUD hangers were used on this front door attack. Jim denied the story for years until right before he moved to Thailand, when he gave me these hangers and said that the story was true.
Unknown #5 - What company manufactured this cam? What country is it from?
Answer: guesses but not correct. This is a Kuate Cam #7.5 from Mexico made in the late 1980s. The Kuate Cams have a signature notch cut into the back of the lobes. This particular cam was once abandoned in a wide crack on the Totem Pole in Arizona. When Jim Bridwell climbed the Totem Pole, he noticed this cam shoved way back out of reach in the wide crack. When Jim was higher up on the route, he got an idea of dangling his hammer on his climbing rope, sending it way down into the crack, and swinging it back and forth hitting the cam out of the crack. It was working but then the cam went out of sight. On the rappel, Jim came across the cam again which was barley still in the crack, and then he plucked out his prize. I was able to find another Kuate Cam but #5 years later on ebay.
Unknown #6 - Dolt mentions in this advertisement: ""16 COLORNUTs."" But these two ads shown below only add up to 14. What other 2 nuts did Dolt color? Aluminum uncolored in this case is not a color.
Answer: no guesses. I believe that only myself and Gary Neptune know this answer. In March 1971, Dolt decided to create a #10 Trunut and #6 Spiderut which both are a light violetish color. Besides Gary Neptune's displayed collection, I have never seen a second of these two nuts.
Unknown #7 - What company made this thing? What is it called?
Answer: guesses but not correct. Vaude created this item and called it a Turner. Circa 1990s? The nut turns on the cable 360 degrees allowing the climber to place it in whatever position they want. I believe Stephane told me there were three sizes created. This Turner was donated to me by John Sherman.
Thanks for playing HISTORY LESSON VOL 2
Good job on your answers!
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Jul 18, 2011 - 12:43am PT
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Good stuff Marty! These here quizzes are cool! Thanks
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ChampionSleeper
Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Jul 18, 2011 - 10:43am PT
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Thanks Marty! Cool history and good stories too. The story about the scouts on the Mace is pretty funny. I can't imagine what that must of looked like all strung up with ~20+ climbers on it!
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Jul 18, 2011 - 12:45pm PT
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Hi Marty! Thanks for posting all the great history! I am enjoying it greatly.
You make a great point about the old guide being out of date. I think I will take your advice, purchase some of the mini guides and save the old '91 guide in like-new condition.
Keep the good stuff coming! I am sure that I am not the only one who is really enjoying it.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jul 18, 2011 - 02:24pm PT
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Marty,
My 7.5 does not have "KUATE 7.5" stamped on the stem - it's blank.
I also have a finger sized cam bought in May 1985 from the same Mexican guys which is stamped "KUATE 0.5" on one side of the stem, and "MEXICO" on the other. It's similar to some of the Rob Oravetz cams of that time, but not as nice. It was helpful on the Salathe'.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2011 - 04:27pm PT
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MisterE, That is so cool! I am amazed they didn't freeze on their December ascent. The Mace is practically in total shade at that time and most of the route is on the North (shaded) side. That's why those guys are the masters. Thanks for sharing this info! I will update my history books.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jul 18, 2011 - 07:19pm PT
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Aha, the Mace FA date plot thickens. Funny, I've just been emailing with Bonnie Kamps about this, too.
Looking back at my interview notes again for my book, a clincher for 1959 as the correct year may be a chance remark from Dave Rearick. Rearick told me that one of the motivating factors for the attempt on Shiprock (which was on the same trip as the Mace FA, just three or so days later) was that TM Herbert had heard of the free ascent of Shiprock by Pete Rogowski and Tom McCalla, and TM was really fired up to do the second free ascent of Shiprock.
Ray Jacquot recently created a painstaking reconstruction of the entire Shiprock ascent information from 1939 up until May 1968. This lists the Rogowski ascent as May 29, 1959. Royal Robbins was supposed to join Rogowski for the free attempt on Shiprock, but could not make it (was he drafted? I forget now).
So, from this, the Mace first ascent would have had to have post-dated May 1959.
Bonnie Kamps just sent me the same diary scan (Thanks Bonnie!), but said it was from 1959. It was also written a few years after the fact, with, obviously, no access to online calendar date calculators, so is not entirely ideal as a reference.
But perhaps Bob Kamps’ diary was only one day off with the 26 December. In 1959, December 26 was a Saturday, and December 27, therefore, a Sunday. So, maybe, just maybe, he was just one day off, and Sunday 27 December was the actual summit date?
I'm pretty confident that the summit date for the Mace is likely either Dec 20, or Dec 27 1959.
Rearick is positive it was pre-Christmas Day, Kamps' diary says it was post-Christmas Day. Which, is still not clear.
As a side note, Bonnie has a great website of Bob Kamp's first ascents:
http://www.bobkamps.com/
It's searchable, well organized, a great resource. He sure did a lot of new routes!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2011 - 09:37am PT
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I heard about Bobbi Bensman through the local word, that she used to live in Phoenix and was quite the climber. I remember one Phoenix Bouldering Contest where she signed my score card after completing a bouldering problem. She and friends were having trouble sending the problem and I jumped in with the fun. Somehow I sent it, and it was by the skin of my teeth. My whole body was shaking from the adrenalin. She said to me "Good Job" where afterwards I felt like I was drained and needed to sit down. It was a high enough point problem which put me into second place in my age category. Years later I was never able to get that problem again.
In the early 1990s, Bobbi was in town with a slideshow named "Of Power & Grace." It was at Los Olivos Senior Center in Phoenix which has nice seating and a stage, and was my first slide show presentation that I attended shown by a Superstar climber. My friends and I were excited to see the show. Upon entering, each person was given a raffle ticket. I love raffle tickets and of course begged for more, but they swooshed me away and said "Go find a seat." We sat close to the back where the seating was higher up so we had a great view of the show. Bobbi entered and everybody applauded as she introduced herself. I have seen Bobbi Bensman in videos and in magazine pictures, and at this time was getting goosebumps from the crowds applause.
Bobbi started her show, which was two slide projectors that alternated back and forth, and at times, it looked like the climber was moving on film. About one third of the way through the show, one of the slide projectors started to give her problems. The second projector kept insisting on lighting up at the same time as the other, causing the shown slides to overlap. Bobbi worked on fixing the problem, but it was not responding and the same problem kept happening. She eventually turned off the second projector and gave a longer speech as the audience viewed the first projectors images. I still thought the show was great even though we only saw half of the show. I came to the conclusion that it was the best show ever since she gave more history on the individual slides, over what other people saw on her "Of Power & Grace" road trip.
Bobbi continually apologized for the technical difficulties she encountered, and then went into the raffle segment of her show. This is the time where you look at the numbers on your raffle ticket, and then go into prayer service. "God, if you are in the building, let me win, let me win!" Sometimes closing your eyes helps also in channeling the energy to get your number called. I am still working on new techniques on getting my raffle tickets to be constant winners. The first ticket winner was a girl which appeared to be a friend of Bobbi's. I could tell by the expression on Bobbi's face, her big smile, and then she gave a big hug to the girl and thanked her for being there for her. I went back into prayer "Come on God, come on!" And sure enough my number was called. I was the second ticket winner! The smile on my face was bigger than bobbi's, as she started to fall into fear as the Marty train was about to hit her. I must have screamed in excitement the whole time, as I hastily made it down to the stage.
I won a chalk bag and was very proud of it. Bobbi shook my hand and the whole crowd was laughing at the scene. As I started walking away it dawned on me that I forgot something important. I didn't think that it was fair that the girl received a hug for her ticket win, and I didn't. So after a few steps, I turned back around and exclaimed "You forgot something!" She asked "What?" And thats when I got my big hug! It was funny since everybody after that demanded a hug from Bobbi as well for winning the raffle. It was a fun show!
Bobbi is an amazing climber, and has worked her ass off to achieve her place on the podium! Even in my next life I don't think I could climb as many hard routes as she has accomplished. Street stories claim that one day she sent, Better Eat Your Wheaties V9 at Hueco Tanks. John Sherman exclaimed that no woman can climb V9, so the boulder problem was down rated to V8. Another story was that at a Snowbird Competition in Utah, Bobbi was disgusted on how easy the Woman's Finals route was, where she had already sent it and won the comp. The comp directors smirked at her and then said to jump on the mens finals route, and see if that is hard enough for her. She climbed the route and made it to the top.
Ever since that slideshow, I have received endless hugs from Bobbi whenever we bump into each other. I make a point of seeing her at every Trade show since she is, my hometown girl.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2011 - 09:51am PT
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Timmy does not need a story, he needs a book! Besides being an amazing climber and an amazing slackliner, he is amazing at turning climbing videos into a fun adventure! Every video he is in he gets the audience laughing. I love the segment he did in Canada with Lynn Hill bouldering, where Timmy was cleaning the rock with a brush on a stick going in one direction, and Lynn was climbing in the other direction. He continued brushing Lynn as she passed by like she was a piece of the stone. Lynn played along and the video segment truly became a work of art. Or the segment at Indian Creek with Jim Donini, "The tape is the condom of the hand." Some day Timmy will probably be a game show host or something. Timmy, thanks for all you do in the climbing world! You are the best!!!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2011 - 11:22am PT
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MisterE, crunch, and all other Mace historians, The FA history on the Mace has been incorrect for over 50 years now. It is awesome that yous are dialing in the correct date of the FA, if that is even possible, but there is no reason to get into a knife fight over who's right and who's wrong. Although I like a good knife fight every once and a while, like Stings final act in the movie "Dune." Keep up the good work on digging into the history to find the answer. In the future, we may find an actual hair of one of the first ascentists, and carbon date it for varification.
The important item in this Mace discussion, since this thread started with this topic, is that Yvon Chouinard found it more important to attend church that day, over climbing the amazing Mace formation.
thaDood, John Sherman stopped by my house ten years ago just after visiting Gary Neptune in Colorado. John was writing a book on climbing gear, and was gathering info at that time. After seeing Gary's collection, and then seeing what I had, John abandoned his project. So many climbing manufacturers kept reinventing the wheel on climbing gear so now there is a ton of stuff out there. I thought about writing a book on gear, but then decided that I only have 8 or so good years of my kids still being kids, before they are off to college. I decided kids first, then gear history later. I am finding that getting hit by water balloons is better than being hit by people correcting my incorrect history theories. For now it is nice to have this Supertopo site to share my celebrity experiences with the viewers. Writing a book with John Long would be an awesome experience, but knowing John myself, he probably would forget to put my name on the cover of HIS book.
Two years ago I found Bobbi in the Gramicci booth. I will see her in two weeks to get my hugs and to get an update on what she has been up to. I will keep you posted!
Presently at Hueco Tanks, there is an 8 year old girl that has already sent V14 multiple times!
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jul 19, 2011 - 08:27pm PT
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The FA history on the Mace has been incorrect for over 50 years now. It is awesome that yous are dialing in the correct date of the FA, if that is even possible, but there is no reason to get into a knife fight over who's right and who's wrong.
Whoops, I forgot the golden rule: Never bring a knife to a Mace fight.....
sorry.....
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