Discussion Topic |
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| Messages 1 - 90 of total 90 in this topic |
JFrimer
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 28, 2011 - 03:33am PT
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Reports were coming in of a loose block on a classic 10b route on the Squaw in Squamish. A few of us took it upon ourselves to trundle it under safe conditions. With the trails flagged off and a sentry (myself) on the ground, this is how it all went down.
video of the trundle
Kris estimated the block to be about 2 tons. It was perched 70m off the deck.
Eebee Jeebees
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jun 28, 2011 - 03:47am PT
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woof!
bummer it took out the tree, but such are the effects of gravity and 2 ton blocks.
nice public service to take it down in a controlled setting.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 28, 2011 - 03:58am PT
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Not big by Valley standards, but here's one of Bill Coe (Couchmaster) applying the 'Slim Pickens' technique to a sizable one at Beacon last year with my off-to-the-side assistance. We had launched it moments before this, but it slid about ten feet and then somehow got hung up by the smaller flake Bill is vigorously jumping up and down on...
After we lost about 60' or the SE Corner ridge...
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 28, 2011 - 04:37am PT
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I smiled a bit at all the lumber they prepared and brought, but didn't need.
I can see bringing the crowbar, but I think most stuff that is loose enough will come off with a good layback move, and the lumber would just break.
Good work with the ground crew and trail closure; would be too risky without that, as with all the woods you probably can't get a clear view of the base.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Jun 28, 2011 - 08:23am PT
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I would go with "Come down hard on me baby" by Hendrix for the soundtrack. It seems that severe gardening goes on up there - that tree had been whittled on before the trundle.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jun 28, 2011 - 09:48am PT
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Nice video of Squamish! Good on you guys for getting it done.
What Dingus says is exactly what appeared to have happened with the one JH posted upthread. Fortunately when this occurred the rock had been closed for the annual Peregrine closure nesting, and Joseph spotted this ugly gash one day where there use to be a very large fir tree. The large mature Douglas Fir tree must have acted as a lever in some massive winter storm, and the hole is essentially where the roots of the former tree were. The tree had been the anchor for the top out on one of Josephs routes. We left plenty up there for future winters. All we concentrated on were the loosest ones ready to roll now. This winter and next winter are whole new freeze thaw cycles which may or may not loosen those.
Joseph had worked with the railroad (the railroad tracks seen right there in the picture is a very high usage one with multiple trains scheduled daily) and the park to coordinate a day of cleaning after the Peregrine had flown but before climbers and hikers came in. This scar is right over the 2 most popular climbing routes and the trail to get to the base. In fact, the 2 routes were filled with loose rocks from this occurrence and other winter rock fall. I've found that the rope protectors like the orange one seen in the pic are critical gear for this kind of duty. The rock is unbelievable sharp, and despite trying not to: at some point you invariably are fully weighting the rope and moving laterally at the same time.
Joseph co-ordinated multiple teams working various parts of the rock to get it all off at once so the railroad could get fired back up quickly. They were all annoyed to have to bring on extra people to watch the tracks and have the trains run slow for the time we are up there, but I'm sure they are highly appreciative of this work. The Columbia River is literally 20'-200'away from the tracks. You can see the river in the lower pic, and it pinches even closer together just out of sight of the photo. The economic hit from an accident are incalculable. The largest Salmon runs in the lower 48 run up that river, farmers pull water for crops etc, so there are massively huge economic and environmental issues if a large rock were to self trundle at the wrong time and take out a tank car of ammonia, benzine or Chlorine concentrate as it was heading down hill (the river gets closer to the tracks that way, and a derailed train could and would most likely slide right into the river). So although the climbers are of course naturally grateful, the real beneficiaries is the country and the train guys who might be getting a multi-million or billion dollar world class/front page environmental disaster averted by this job we do for free. That we can drop loose blocks in a controlled and timed fashion is a great thing we do for them. Just one of those monsters choosing to fall at the wrong time could rewrite history for the railroads, our country, and the river, in a very bad way.
This might be the 3rd or 4th pre-climb opening Joseph had organized, and it's certainly one of the most kick assed things he does which all climbers (and the railroad) there benefit from. Another view of this one looking up that Joesph had stitched together, the scar left from the departing tree might have been 65 feet tall and approx 30-40' across:
The block(s) above in caught in the air by Hanmi Meyer in the lower picture who was doing double duty as a ground spotter down on the railroad tracks. She was there with a radio to the park to warn of a track issue or an unknowing person wandering down the obviously closed trail.
Hamni has her photos here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hanmi/sets/72157624619923450/
I think JH went back later alone once or twice to rope solo and clean even more loose rock off the classic multi-pitch routes. Even then, there still seems that we wind up with a few peeling off early in the year.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 28, 2011 - 10:31am PT
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always like a good trundle...
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Loose Rocks
Trad climber
Santa Rosa, CA
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Jun 28, 2011 - 10:33am PT
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Two tons is probably on the heavy side but that's not a 500-750 lb block. Granite is about 170 lbs per cubic feet.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Jun 28, 2011 - 10:34am PT
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Hey Ed, I need to wash my dog this afternoon, could I get a quick feasibility study? Thx.
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nature
climber
WTF?
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Jun 28, 2011 - 10:36am PT
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good work. that was a nice way to sit down with morning brew and be entertained.
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blackbird
Trad climber
the flat water trails...
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Jun 28, 2011 - 10:45am PT
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Nice!
Having done my fair share of coordinating between entities, I fully appreciate and applaud the communication/bribery/begging/pleading/coercing that went into the organization of this effort. Not an easy task and one which few truly understand the scope.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 28, 2011 - 10:52am PT
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mcreel - you're on your own...
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Banquo
climber
Morgan Hill, CA (Mo' Hill)
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Jun 28, 2011 - 11:14am PT
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Ed-
Engineering Statics is an easier way to set the problem up.
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jun 28, 2011 - 11:21am PT
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Nice!
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jun 28, 2011 - 12:16pm PT
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mmmm love trundles.
Hall and Oats? Srsly?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jun 28, 2011 - 12:28pm PT
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Leave it to Greg to have the perfect .gif
Nice. Sweet trundle.
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JFrimer
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 28, 2011 - 12:37pm PT
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regarding its mass, Kris (the trundler) wrote this:
By my calculations based on the weight of granite per cubic foot, this thing weighed in the neighborhood of 5000 lb, give ot take a thousand. It was about 15' tall, averaged 4' wide and tapered from about 18" thick at the base to about 4" thick at the top.
I was on the ground, keeping people clear and filming so I can't comment further.
One bolt on a route below was sheered off by the falling rock. We replaced it.
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Brian
climber
California
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Jun 28, 2011 - 01:50pm PT
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Now someone go get that block out of the Monster Offwidth.
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hagerty
Social climber
A Sandy Area South of a Salty Lake
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Jun 28, 2011 - 01:50pm PT
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I like how you used the tree to brush all the dust off after the trundle.
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Jun 28, 2011 - 02:44pm PT
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Chamaecyparis is no more, it's Callitropsis right now, but it might be Xanthocyparis in another couple months.
BIOLOGISTS, WHY U NO KEEP THE SAME NAMES I MEMORIZED??
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Jun 28, 2011 - 03:08pm PT
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That looked like fun!
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Jun 28, 2011 - 05:18pm PT
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Did you see the big tree root behind the block after it was trundled? Could that root have been enough to break the block loose and cause the problem in the first place?
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jun 28, 2011 - 05:33pm PT
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^^^^ that was my first thought. Awesome root.
I'm still not sure why it was necessary to trundle it. Obviously had been there a long time according to the narrator. I'm sure many parties had climbed past it.
Anyone climbing up to it should have the sense not to pull on it.
Let nature bring it down in the winter.
It's a little different with the Monster Block which is apparently only being held in place with slings.
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JFrimer
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 28, 2011 - 06:58pm PT
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The tree appeared to be straining under the load of the flake. There's reason to suspect that it might have fallen down any time spontaneously, perhaps with people below.
Also, a large amount of loose rock remained on the face, caught in cracks and on ledges after the trundle. If this happened spontaneously, all that rock would have remained precariously perched. In my view, control is key when it comes to matters like this. Letting it go under controlled conditions seemed and seems like the best option.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 28, 2011 - 07:12pm PT
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Some people have all the fun... (pout).
An interesting question, the causes of these events. It always depends on the site, but I suspect that in many cases the causes are a mixture of expansion/contraction caused by ice (in Yosemite, by heat also), simple internal lubrication, the slowly increasing mass of the vegetation, wind stress, and in some cases root heaving. Overall, repetitive and/or cumulative stress, often combined.
The result - often the unstable remnants of the roots, soil, gravel, and rocks - does need to be tidied up. It tends to make it look as though the proximate cause is the vegetation, but that seems much too simplistic.
I suspect that the main causes of mass wasting on cliffs like those at Squamish are thermal expansion/contraction, and of course earthquakes. It would be interesting to date the boulders below the various walls, match the rock types of the boulders to the cliffs, and see how it all fits together. (As done in Yosemite by Greg Stock.) For example, perhaps a lot of rockfall dates to the big quake in 1700, or other identified events.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Jun 28, 2011 - 08:40pm PT
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I love a good trundle. Thanks.
There was a wee bit too much sackage video in the beginning though.
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Jun 28, 2011 - 09:22pm PT
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Totally awesome video. Excellent work on the death block!
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bmacd
Social climber
100% Canadian
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Jun 28, 2011 - 11:26pm PT
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Awesome Job guys, now how about killing that tree thats levering out the split pillar ? We'd rather see the tree go than the pillar …
Love the Camera 2 shot from the impact zone
No 720p version ??
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 29, 2011 - 12:12am PT
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how about killing that tree thats levering out the split pillar
Really? Why do you think that? The Pillar more or less hangs from the curtain above, with its base wedged in a niche at the bottom. It expands, if encouraged. The shrub (a lovely, sturdy, slow-growing cedar) is well below and to the side, in what appears a separate crack/flake system.
The Pillar is a rather temporary feature. It's at risk from earthquakes, and (very much) from frost heaving - water collecting behind it, and freezing and expanding. The shrub is of little significance in comparison, even if (possibly) a few of its roots extend up and behind the Pillar.
The whole "Split Pillar is being pushed off by a small tree" line seems another suburban legend, promoted by the tiresome tree vandals. The tree does not in any way interfere with the climb, provides a nice bit of shade, and is not a threat to the Pillar. Sooner or later it will be taken out by ice or possibly rock fall. In the meantime, leave it be - it has a hard existence, and has earned it.
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Jun 29, 2011 - 12:54am PT
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Anytime there's a local earthquake it's fun to get the "OMG Split Pillar just fell off the grand !!!111" rumors going thru Twitter and the like. I had people from Ontario calling up Squamish climbers in a frenzy after the 2001 quake }:)
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 29, 2011 - 12:59am PT
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Here is a more worthy public improvement project than half-witted proposals to murder an iconic, innocent and highly visible tree - something about which BC Parks surely has its own views, and which might get someone arrested.
A block in a high-traffic area, although not actually on a route. Reckon it's a couple of tonnes. (There is a tree loitering in the vicinity, but not with intent.) Another is the triangular block on what is now the last pitch of Banana Peel - formerly the second-last pitch of Slab Alley. Although the Ministry of Highways may have its own thoughts on the fate of both blocks.
(Prediction: Within the next five years, a Squamish climber will be charged with breaching the Park Act, either for endangering the public, or for vandalizing vegetation, or for building a half-baked ladder system.)
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 29, 2011 - 01:21am PT
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All my clients are innocent.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jun 29, 2011 - 01:36am PT
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Good trundle. Keeps a good climb safe.
Here's a shot of Eric and I leg pressing a substantially bigger block on a route we put up on Zeke's a couple of years ago. You can only see the top edge here, but it was several times the size of the one in the video. We'd hoped that it would stop at the base and provide a nice big belay patio, but it toboganed off down the trail. (And no, there was nobody within a hundred miles. Only vegetable were hurt.)
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OlympicMtnBoy
climber
Seattle
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Jun 29, 2011 - 02:39am PT
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Nice trundle and video, thanks for sharing!
Maybe someone can go and clean up that stump now too. It kind of detracts from the feeling when you feel like you're climbing through a clearcut with stumps lining a route. I recall one other obvious lame stump a bit higher up on that route too. Not that I'm up there to do that nasty work though so take that with a grain of salt. ;-)
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 29, 2011 - 02:58am PT
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This is good work y'all did so don't get me wrong, but what ever happenned to the idea of keeping this sort of thing under the radar? Why is this on the web?
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apogee
climber
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Jun 29, 2011 - 03:00am PT
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^^^^
Word.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
bouldering
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Jun 29, 2011 - 03:34am PT
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... too much sackage ... ... what ever happenned to the idea of keeping this sort of thing under the radar?
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JFrimer
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 29, 2011 - 09:45am PT
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but what ever happenned to the idea of keeping this sort of thing under the radar?
Who are we supposed to be hiding from?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 29, 2011 - 11:20am PT
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Biotch -whoa dude, electronic blue butt plug?
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cowpoke
climber
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Jun 29, 2011 - 11:31am PT
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YeeHa! great share
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jun 29, 2011 - 12:02pm PT
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ghost -whoa dude, vasques.....
Yes, but with the front half resoled with C4. (I kept the raised and lugged heel).
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jun 29, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
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Climate Change skeptics? [ot] might as well bump
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 29, 2011 - 02:34pm PT
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Sorry if my comment was out of line. Like I said, good work on that.
I've been involved in similar situations at my local crags, and my approach has always been to get it done with as little visibility as possible. It's not that we're exactly hiding from anyone, but my instinct is to be discreet.
Carry on...
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jun 29, 2011 - 05:08pm PT
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Anyway, so long as we do this stuff responsibly there dosn't seem to be too much opposition
And consider the alternative: how responsible is it to leave a death block poised on a popular route?
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jewedlaw
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jun 29, 2011 - 05:33pm PT
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I thought we stopped calling them "Death Blocks" and were referring to them as Ralstones now.
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bmacd
Social climber
100% Canadian
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Jun 29, 2011 - 05:35pm PT
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BC Parks doesn't have enough budget to sustain an internet connection let alone direct policy. It's clear the actions of JFrimer and his pals are well guided and pro-active. Government intervention is totally unnecessary.
I'm sure they will be taking care of the split pillar tree problem under the cover of darkness to preempt detachment. Trundling the block Anders is suggesting down the Apron onto the highway would be utterly foolish.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 29, 2011 - 05:56pm PT
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I did not for a moment suggest trundling the block, of which I posted a photo. I was merely pointing out that in terms of climber and public safety at Squamish, there are some obvious things to deal with. It might be logistically complicated to take care of them, and involve some bureaucracy, but that's neither here nor there. The tree at the base of the Split Pillar is very far from such a threat.
Anyone removing that tree without thorough prior investigation and consultation, and the consent of BC Parks, should be charged under the Park Act. A few climbers at Squamish seem heedless that the Chief is in a public park, and that although BC Parks has limited resources to manage the park (unfortunately), and so largely leaves climbers to self-manage, there are limits to behaviours. They're playing with fire.
When a real threat to the park arises, e.g. the gondola proposal of 2003, climbers need all the credibility we can get. (Which issue has, in effect, reappeared.) Unless we self-police, a few climbers behaving as though they own the place, and aren't accountable to anyone, can cause a lot of problems for the rest of us.
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bmacd
Social climber
100% Canadian
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Jun 29, 2011 - 07:12pm PT
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lol - Well if credibility is an issue then Anders shouldn't you and Peder be up retro-installing the south summit "via ferata" in that case? Might look good on your resume when BC parks starts hiring again, then you can be an official spokesperson.
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JFrimer
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 29, 2011 - 07:54pm PT
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Since you seem to have an inside scoop, Anders, what exactly is Parks' real stance on tree removal in the Parks for the purpose of keeping routes safe and climbable?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 29, 2011 - 08:09pm PT
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Beacon Rock's south face sits directly above one of the busier sections of rail traffic on the west coast and so trundling anything significant there is a big deal. We have to contact the park rangers, they contact the railroad, who then arranges a train stoppage and an onsite work crew in case anything hits the tracks. Rangers and volunteers block and man all possible access to the south face, the rail guys show up to observe, we get positioned on the face, everyone has radios, and once we get the word from the railroad guys that the trains are stopped the clock starts ticking.
We trundle and even if nothing hits the tracks the track managers don't trust their own onsite crew's word for it and instead send a computerized machine down the track to measure everything. Once that corroborates the onsite crew's report the track is reopened.
However, the Washington State Department of Transportation made a similar temporary closure deal with the railroad last year for a day which due to WDOT's fault ended up stretching for three days and backing up scheduling all the way to the east coast so now the railroad is making it very hard for us to get their cooperation if we needed to do another trundle.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 29, 2011 - 08:13pm PT
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Thanks, Joseph.
I don't have any inside scoop with regard to Parks, but have worked with them on a variety of things over many years, and so perhaps a bit of a feeling for what they'll tolerate, and won't. I doubt they'd have any problem with the Birds of Prey project, and putting on my legal hat for a moment, there's a pretty good defence of necessity/public safety. Some other activities over the last few years - no names - seem pretty close to the edge, whether in terms of flouting the Park Act, endangering the public, or both. Parks has historically allowed climbers a fairly free rein, but with enough provocation that seems likely to change.
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bmacd
Social climber
100% Canadian
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Jun 29, 2011 - 08:38pm PT
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I'm available to hump loads up to top of south gully for the via ferata retro-fit starting tommorrow Anders.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 30, 2011 - 12:58am PT
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Anyone touches the periwinkle (or whatever it is) will be sleeping with the fishes. A lovely little rock garden.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 30, 2011 - 02:02am PT
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^^^^^^
What he said. Saxifragile. Yeah, that's it.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Jun 30, 2011 - 10:37am PT
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Nice Trundle!!!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 30, 2011 - 10:16pm PT
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Bruce: mea culpa, mea culpa! Although the amount of vegetation that I've removed from climbs at Squamish has been modest compared to most, and the routes I've cleaned/restored have generally proven to be popular.
Perhaps I've learned from what I and others have done in the past, and I now try to minimize the cleaning I do - unlike some I might name.
I left several respectable shrubs in Penny Lane, knowing that they might disappear, but hoping otherwise. Likewise I left a nice tree belay at the end of the fourth pitch of Slab Alley, which provides welcome shade and a nice stance. Plus a good crack for those wanting other anchors. Trauma counsellors will be standing by, for commercial climbers and other pathetic souls who can't figure out a belay that doesn't involve bolts. Call 1-800-382-5633.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jun 30, 2011 - 11:32pm PT
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For all transgressions real or imagined, I confess that I pulled an innocent (though soft) plant in the vastness of the WOODS and wiped with satisfaction.
Damn! This gave me a major inspiration! Remember that thread that was up over the last few days about the video of those weird dudes that were apologizing to all women "on behalf of their gender"? [I think it was "How not to get laid"]
I think we should make a video of Anders apologizing to all plants on behalf of his species. F*#kin' hell if that wouldn't be a fine thing to do.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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You guys are just full of good ideas. When will the "flogging with devil's club" event be occurring?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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As soon as you man up and pull that devil's club out of the ground so that the trail to the climb is cleaner.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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I am reminded of the flogging scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail, and picture Ghost dressed in a nun's habit, begging for a thrashing. Totally medieval. Anyone else?
And then there was some route that Ed Drummond did in England, called something like Two Ton Sardine. Hopefully no sardines will be trundled.
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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For all transgressions real or imagined, I confess that I pulled an innocent (though soft) plant in the vastness of the WOODS and wiped with satisfaction.
Damn! This gave me a major inspiration! Remember that thread that was up over the last few days about the video of those weird dudes that were apologizing to all women "on behalf of their gender"? [I think it was "How not to get laid"]
I think we should make a video of Anders apologizing to all plants on behalf of his species. F*#kin' hell if that wouldn't be a fine thing to do.
The first thing I thought of was Tami's cartoon where the grown up former climber sneaks out in the woods to have a nice sh#t in the forest and once again wipes with poison oak...
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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I think ghost is onto something.
Just the same thing that you're onto. That is that while arborism and agriculture are both fine occupations/passtimes, when I go rock climbing what I want is rock. Not trees and dirt.
Oh, sure, a nice old tree on a belay ledge is great. But as for the rest of the climb, I prefer clean rock.
There are places where savage gardening is an environmental no-no, but the PNW and Southwest BC are not those places.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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I'm areligious, so that theory won't work.
Exasperator used to be a jungle gym.
Hardly. Exasperator and Apron Strings were naturally two of the cleanest ground-level climbs at Squamish. The first pitch had only a root, about half way up, that one could stand on. Now gone. There was a downhanging dying shrub at the end of the first pitch, which I removed in autumn 1976. When Eric and Dave did the FFA of the second pitch in 1975, it took them only a few hours to do needed cleaning. They left the two or three little trees which provided helpful holds and anchors, but over time those have died or been removed. They in no way impeded 'progress'.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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It isn't a real Squamish climb unless at some point you've relied on vegetation for progress or anchors.
As for Exasperator - well, I did the second free ascent. (Photo posted elsewhere.) The two or three shrubs that were later removed were quite handy. Their removal made no difference at all to the climb's difficulty, and did not improve its quality. There were several trees at the top, where the climb intersects the Peasant's Route corner, but that's another matter.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Perhaps it's that I think of climbers, and the climbing community, as stewards of parks, rather than mere users. Particularly given that the provincial government has limited resources to act as such. If the cat is away, us mice need to behave like a cat, instead of taking advantage of the situation.
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JFrimer
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 2, 2011 - 03:33am PT
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Anders, investing months of labour to make a bush bash into a rock climb... is that really "taking advantage". You'll need to fill in the logical gap between volunteerism and banditry. Some of your villains are my heros. The Squamish hero wields a mattock and dreams of Agent Orange.
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kc
Trad climber
sj, ca
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Am I the only one bothered by the fact that the guy doing the trundling was only tied in by one point of contact?
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Bruce
...recovery can be alarmingly rapid True, but only when people stop climbing the routes. Otherwise the cracks continue losing whatever soil was there in the first place.
Plenty of routes in the Valley you can now see clearly from the ground with the naked eye, pitches 3 or 4 hundred feet up, which were not so easy to spot 40 years ago. The cracks and rock adjacent look as if they've been deliberately gardened and bleached. Which I believe they haven't.
Or the brightly shining patches on well worked boulder problems, not even chalk but the lichens eroded away. The lifecycle of lichens is measured in thousands of years (see Lichenometry for aging exposed rock surfaces: "lichens are presumed to increase in size radially at specific rates as they grow. Measuring the diameter of the largest lichen of a species on a rock surface can therefore be used to determine the amount of time that the rock has been exposed. Lichen can be preserved on old rock faces for up to 10,000 years, providing the maximum age limit of the technique"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lichenometry
My point is we have to be thoughtful about when and where we garden and "improve" routes. They are not our personal playgrounds. In many ways they are part of the enveloping ecosystem, from lichens up to Peregrine Falcons.
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Hoser
climber
vancouver
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Dont forget how much rubber dust kills lichen too, alot more than climbers. Tires wear out...where do you think that rubber goes...dust on the lichen, suffocates them
roadside crag vegetation is dying whether we like it or not.
Rubber dust...shit is nasty!!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Well, leave it to me to do an anti-trundle. I spent a day last weekend and day this weekend restoring some old routes on the upper Apron at Squamish. (Just above Broadway.) 50 - 100 m long routes, mostly 5.9 to easy 5.10, but with few protection bolts - one, two or perhaps three in each pitch. Checking the old bolts and replacing spinners and the rusty (galvanized) ones, replacing the old SMC hangers with new ones, and restoring a rappel route down a groove/tree line on the left side (Granville Street). Last weekend I noticed a number of perched rocks on Granville Street, ones just sitting. So today I "trundled" them, by carrying them down in my pack. As it's a high traffic area, I couldn't think of anything else to do with them.
I left my pet rocks in a nice cairn on a big ledge, for lack of any better idea. They're no threat there, but could be carried farther down if someone wanted. Not a good place for trundling. The bottom rock weighed about 25 kg. (Inspected by Jim B when he passed by later.)
Here's some of the old gear I removed from the climbs.
The bolts were placed in 1986 or 1987. Many of the nuts and hangers were epoxied on, which was sometimes a nuisance.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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investing months of labour to make a bush bash into a rock climb... is that really "taking advantage".
Yes, sometimes.
As for going against the grain - not so sure of that. Different perspective, perhaps.
The comments about the slow growth of lichens are well put.
One thing that BC Parks should so, sometime soon, is work with climbers to identify some "off limits" areas, both as a baseline and so that a representative selection of the different mini-biogeoclimatic zones at the Chief are protected. Maybe 10 - 20% of the rock, or something like that. Perhaps there's nothing special, but perhaps there is - why found out the hard way?
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Mimi
climber
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Ed or Banquo, what is the signficance of F1 being about twice P? Is it due to the angle of forward force being applied to push the block over? They appear different or is it the sketch?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Ed or Banquo, what is the signficance of F1 being about twice P? Is it due to the angle of forward force being applied to push the block over? They appear different or is it the sketch?
That's the lamest excuse for Saturday night sh#t-talking that I've ever seen! Have another beer.
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Mimi
climber
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Ha! Anders, the International Beerfest today was splendid. 160 beers from 15 countries. Didn't quite hit 160, but I tried.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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interesting question...
I just calculated the force required to move the block assuming you are pushing on the "lever arm" that intersects the upper left and lower right corners of the block in the diagram... F⊥ ("F perp" is the force perpendicular to that line) vector summed with F|| ("F parallel") add up to the gravitational force on the block F. To move the block, you have to press on it with more than F⊥.
Banquo calculated the force around the center-of-gravity (I believe) for which the length of the arm is half the one I used...
But he should speak up... I think I did it correctly, but I'm just a physicist...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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That's nothing. The blocks I moved yesterday required several bazillion Hartounis of energy to load up and carry down. You try rappelling with a 25 kg block in your daypack. It was hard enough just getting the suckers safely strapped on - I didn't dare drop anything.
It would have required help from half the climbers of Squamish to block off access to the area if I'd trundled the blocks, pissed off the other half, and probably needed an environmental impact statement given the high visibility. Admittedly a stuck hang glider diverted a lot of attention, but that couldn't have been predicted. (In the end self-rescued.)
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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I've jugged and rapped with a mega sized deep cycle battery on my back. Probably closer to 50 kg. Good times.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Owning a fluffy orange cat isn't enough.
That depends on the orange fluffy cat. I've been around some orange fluffy cats that would rip your legs off if they thought you'd left any vegetation within sight of a climb.
Edit to add: I'm just back from a weekend of ripping vegetation off rock.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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My orange fur ball mostly uses vegetation to sharpen her claws. Sometimes she eats the grassy variety, and then horks it up, accompanied by distressing sound effects. When you're a ferocious carnivore, the only thing that matters is prey.
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sac
Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
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a friend and I did some trundling today...
aaand ripped some vegetation from the granite...
Then, at the belay, we tiptoed around the arbutus,
trying not to disturb it,it's bark, or the "vancouver ground cone"(it's parasitic dontcha know) growing beneath.
We gently threaded our rope through, trying not to break, even the dead, branches. And then rapped, and did more ripping of veg from the crack
... go figure...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Of course, a bazillion Hartounis doesn't even equal one Stannard, when it comes to energy output.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Well, I'll probably see both of them at the FaceLift. The one about being caught between two irresistible forces comes to mind.
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Banquo
climber
Morgan Hill, CA (Mo' Hill)
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Ed Hartouni-
Better check your work.
Statics is a class engineers take after a first course in Newtonian mechanics. Engineering being applied science, the course teaches how to apply the equations learned in physics. As implied by the name of the course, the objects analyzed are static meaning that there is no change in velocity which is to say that all of the acceleration terms are equal to zero. There is a companion course called Dynamics which covers accelerating objects.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statics
In physics F=ma but in statics, a=0 and all the forces acting on an object must result in a net zero force. The object is said to be in static equilibrium as opposed to dynamic equilibrium. The same is true for rotation, all of the torques or moments on the body must add up to zero. In a three dimensional space there are six independent equations that can be solved for 6 unknowns. In a two dimensional case like ours there are only 3 equations:
Sum of the forces x equal zero ΣFx=0
Sum of the forces y equal zero ΣFy=0
Sum of the moments z equal zero ΣMz=0
In my picture (reposted below), I drew a diagram showing all of the forces acting on the object (called a free body diagram). There are 3 unknown forces, P and the reaction force represented by Rx and Ry. I have three equations and can solve for all three but only solved for P. I used ΣMz=0 taken about the reaction force to get an equation in one unknown. There are only two terms in the equation, the overturning moment Ph and the resisting moment Wb/2.
This can also be easily solved using vector addition since the three vectors must add up to zero.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I believe the line for your diagram should run through the center of gravity connecting one corner to the next, not to the half-way point of the upper surface...
when I push on that upper left corner, I push on the "lever" that runs from that corner to the contact point, the lower right corner.
The center of gravity sits on this line, so I can just concentrate all of the mass at that point. In my diagram, I resolved the vertical force of the mass of the block in the Earth's gravity, into two forces, one parallel to the line, and one perpendicular to the line.
Being smart,I would push along the perpendicular, which minimizes the force "wasted" either pushing into the contact corner, or in trying to lift the block... my first push, to rotate the block, must equal the force perpendicular to that line. The applied force gets less and less from there, until I get the center-of-gravity over the contact point, then a very small force tips the block.
I don't understand why you have drawn the line that you draw... note that all my forces are balanced, as are all my torques...
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Banquo
climber
Morgan Hill, CA (Mo' Hill)
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Ed-
The half way point at the top is the point of concurrency for all three forces. If there are only three forces acting on a static body, all three forces have to be concurrent or the sum of moments (torque) cannot be zero and angular acceleration results. If the weight and the reaction force are concurrent at the CG and the reaction force acts at the corner, the three forces have to be zero to be static. Calcs below.
Solving for the perpendicular force will find a smaller magnitude but since the block is so tall and skinny, the difference is very small. I didn't do this initially since it made the solution more complex and results in an insignificant difference. Calcs below.
The lever used in calculating torque or moment is measured perpendicular to the force. Pushing on the end of a wrench directly towards the bolt will not turn the bolt even though the force is applied the length of the wrench away from the bolt.
The only assumption I am making is that the acceleration is small enough so that the inertial force is negligible.
There is an exception to three forces acting on a static body must be concurrent, they can be parallel.
I've been teaching this stuff at SJSU since 1984.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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there are lots of ways to skin a cat....
in my way, I forgot that the line connecting the corners is a lever, and that the weight is at the mid point of that lever, giving me a 2:1 advantage...
so the force to move it is half the perpendicular force... that agrees with your calculation using torques, etc...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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It's not true that I weigh two tonnes, that I'm unbalanced, or that I can be easily tipped. I resemble all such remarks, not to mention that one about skinning cats. The very idea!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I did some trundinttg last month and it only took one red alien to move a ton block
I think it would have been better not to be right under the block when it falls
peace
karl
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