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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Yeah, following advice about reforming education system from a 19 yr. old. Sounds like a great plan.
Pretty hilarious, Fat Dad :-) I agree completely.
I know someone who recently hired a 26 year old "entrepreneur", who'd never gone to college. The guy came across as a technical wizard and claimed he "grew up programming", etc. Turned out the guy couldn't even spell (without someone to edit his resume), let alone think critically, or write something others could understand. His tech skills were all "drag and drop", too. He didn't last long.
I went back to school in my 30's and value the the entire process immensely - learning to research and present what I'd learned. Hard to know what one doesn't know, until you've gone through this. I completely loved my entire time in school and was super motivated. I was there completely by choice, very different than when I dropped out of 1st year university after graduating from high school.
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habitat
climber
grass pass
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Oh I loved university! It changed every aspect of my life. My world went from this big to THIS BIG...it's not just about the degree and the money, status or prestige that may come with it. It's about being a citizen of THE world vs. your world.
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BrianH
Trad climber
santa fe
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How does anyone actually use a social sciences or history degree for a career, other than in academia?
I'm a government lawyer and I think about the things I learned for my political science degree a lot. I'm sometimes very surprised about how little people know about theories of government and their history.
One of the things I love most about college was the serendipity and being exposed to stuff I might not have otherwise sought out. The extra curricular activities also were just as, if not more, educational then my formal classes. I don't agree that college is a waste of time, at least it wasn't for me. Since I went to a state school in the early 80s I incurred very little debt and it has been worth every penny.
To the extent that colleges (or the "university model") is failing, I think a large part has to do with the primary and secondary schools. Recent education "reforms" seem more designed to remove the ability of teachers to teach critical thinking skills and to turn kids into automata. Of all our major institutions, a class room is about the only one where a teacher of 100 years ago would feel pretty much in place today.
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BrianH
Trad climber
santa fe
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I could see encouraging a "gap year" or two. It works to great effect in England. I imposed one on myself halfway through, and when I returned, I got a lot more out the last two years.
I guess it depends on the kid and what plans they had to improve themselves and continue growing. But I think it would be rare.
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FinnMaCoul
Trad climber
Green Mountains, Vermont
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What a well reasoned bunch of responses for an ST thread.
I'm one of the guys that is NOT working in a field related to my degree. However, a degree was a pre-requisite of the job.
For me, a liberal arts major, it was all about learning critical thinking. Even at a mid-level state university I had access to a fantastic bunch of professors who challenged those who rose to a challenge.
I agree with Tami and Anastasia. For most of us out there, born without the silver spoon, it helps to open doors. And if, like it sounds many posters here did, you actually take advantage of those opportunities presented, it can be a powerful experience.
I'm not an entrepreneurial type guy. At least not yet. And, true, I'm not raking in six figures. I'm doing work that I enjoy, however, and I've parlayed my jobs into a pretty comfortable deal.
There is no doubt that one could do as well or better as a carpenter or an electrician or a mechanic, or whatever. But I've never been very skilled at those things either.
College got me where I'm at, no doubt about it. It ain't glorious, but it's mine.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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yesterday's wisdoms have expired.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Climbing is a waste of time goto college.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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I have been extremely successful being a software engineer for the past 20+ years without every having gotten a degree. What college I had was at a community college studying advertising art for a year.
I would still encourage my kid and anyone else who can do it to go to college.
For people who are not good in the school environment or have circumstances that make college unappealing, Work hard and hope for a little luck to get past the people who are degree bigots.
Dave
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Yous guys talk like you've never hired a plumber. Or was it so traumatic
you've purged your billfold's memory bank?
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altelis
Mountain climber
DC
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I know someone who recently hired a 26 year old "entrepreneur", who'd never gone to college. The guy came across as a technical wizard and claimed he "grew up programming", etc. Turned out the guy couldn't even spell (without someone to edit his resume), let alone think critically, or write something others could understand. His tech skills were all "drag and drop", too. He didn't last long.
This reminded me of a conversation I had recently with a cardiothoracic surgeon. We were discussing the training practice in medicine, specifically CT surgery, and as I was there for advice he was giving it out. This particular surgeon went through West Point and spent his fair share of time in the desert working in mobile hospitals doing more surgery less connected to his field than he could imagine...
Anyways, his biggest piece of parting wisdom was based on what he saw in the new fellows the last few years. He said surgical residents know more and more about the patterns of medicine but its come at the expense of the facts. They know a lot and are bright, way brighter than in is day (so says he...), and a lot of medicine is pattern recognition, and they this big time. But he says, if you don't know the FACTS the patterns aren't useful. And apparently (from his point of view) the balance in medical education swung a little too far in the latest attempt to revamp the learning process.
What's the point? Entrepreneurs may have all the bright ideas, drive and determination without going to college. But there are some things, some important basic facts, that a college education gives that are necessary for doing really well. For doing REALLY REALLY well, well, those people have it already- THOSE are the Gates' and Zuckerberg's. But most need that fund of knowledge, and learn how to use it in a logical and cohesive manner.
Beyond that, being an entrepreneur is only a very limited way of being successful, and very few actually have what it takes, even to be a modestly successful one. All those other fields typically require some sort of specialized knowledge- anything from a mechanic to a surgeon. Pure drive and no education won't get you far in either of those fields.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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i was doing something entrepreneurial.
then i got caught and sent to jail.
college looked a lot better after that
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Part of the capitalist system:
College = Loans = Need to Pay Off Loans = Will take any job available, even if your schooling taught you nothing about it, to pay off said loans.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 3, 2011 - 09:52pm PT
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This is brilliant marketing. He is promoting a web site where people can post a resume regardless of education. "College is a waste of time" is the hook. Obviously his $100,000 grant is an endorsement of his business idea. This is a million plus dollar idea.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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someone up thread wrote:
Our creativity, innovation and curiosity are schooled out of us.
I don't believe that this is true. It presumes that you have all those things as part of the inventory of your childhood, sort of having been "filled up" at birth. But we don't all have the same "amounts" of these attributes.
To a large extent, developing creativity, innovation and curiosity all have to do with what sort of feedback you get when you display these attributes. How did your parents respond to your curiosity? Were you curious? did your really want to know the answers to your questions? did you figure out how to get those questions answered?
Innovation and creativity requires a bit of willingness to undertake risks, usually intellectual... the price of failure is often social ridicule, not all of us want to be subject to that sort of thing, but the nature of both of those attributes is that they explore ground that is not commonly known, and often there are other "tried and true" approaches to accomplish the same end, putting yourself "out there" takes a certain moxy that not all of us have.
School was an incredible experience for me. It gave me an opportunity to work with a host of people, to learn with them, work with them and start to understand those things I wanted to understand. I lived away from home for the first time, and learned many life lessons, and got an education which was essential for what I wanted to do.
It's not for everyone. College is not an institution to certify a workforce's capabilities. In my way of thinking, it is a place to learn how to be intellectual, how to frame a question, to mull over some particular point, to think critically. If that's not what you want to do in life college may not be a place for you, but most careers benefit from the disciplines you learn at such a college regardless of what you end up doing.
There are other ways of doing this sort of thing, and it also takes work to make sure that you don't waste you time, which is so easy to do, but not just at college. What ever you choose to do, do it with some intention... the outcome is always better.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 3, 2011 - 09:57pm PT
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Well said Ed. Your insight always inspires me.
As I quoted the author, my point was that all this testing takes the creative process out of our schools. Cutting Art, Music, Theatre, etc leaves a cultural void and stuns creativity.
Memorizing test answers as a means of measuring achievement leaves the individuals strengths lumped into a standard that leaves a void. It does not take into account that personal relationship between teacher and student.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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. . . theory rather than application. Our creativity, innovation and curiosity are schooled out of us . . .
Funny. I found that creativity, innovation and curiosity was essential to make progress in theory.
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reddirt
climber
PNW
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I saw this little blurb on facebook re: an NPR piece that kinda eases the burden of many people's perspective/circumstances, incl mine.
blurb: "Katelyn Bonar has two undergraduate degrees, in biology and psychology. She's also halfway through medical school. And she's well on her way to racking up $300,000 in student loans. Last year, she took time off from medical school and looked for work. Given her credentials, she expected to qualify for a professional job."
NPR excerpt: "Bonar applied to about 20 entry-level hospital jobs. Neither Bonar's schooling nor her medical certifications helped."
http://www.npr.org/2011/06/03/136830744/dear-job-market-thanks-for-a-lousy-grad-gift
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
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The market sucks right now... You can be an illiterate idiot or have a doctorate degree, it doesn't matter... You still won't find much work. Yet when the jobs do open up, guess who gets the higher pay, the better position? Yeah, I'm glad for my diploma because right now is not going to be everyday.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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These anti college folks are confusing two issues.
The value of an education vs. the fact that college is often a prerequisite, but not a requirement for a job.
There are a ton of jobs out there where you need to have a degree to get in the door, but you don't actually use the knowledge.
I think that is a major issue. As there are more college graduates out there than ever, and less blue collar jobs. College degree are required, when they didn't used to be.
When you are hiring, why take the high school grad when you can get a person with a degree?
It says more about our economy than it does the value of education.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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I work for a university.
I didn't go to college.
Maybe some day.
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