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WBraun
climber
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Feb 10, 2006 - 12:45pm PT
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c) Oh man, there goes the neighbor hood ......
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Russ Walling
Social climber
This ain't Tijuana
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Feb 10, 2006 - 12:46pm PT
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French Fries = Freedom Fries
It will probably only rile up the Frenchies. How many of them are in your target market?
That seems to be the official term for it though...
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bulgingpuke
Trad climber
cayucos california
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Feb 10, 2006 - 12:49pm PT
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Oh man...Now your showing them how to do your topos?
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Hootervillian
climber
Zak's Cabin
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Feb 10, 2006 - 01:04pm PT
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probably only if your french.
how are non-stance anchors classified?
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Feb 10, 2006 - 01:05pm PT
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Chris, if you cave in to the french, then we might be bigger pussies than they are.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Feb 10, 2006 - 01:09pm PT
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I think they would be honored. Beside "Freedom Free Climbing" is just too weird.
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malabarista
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Feb 10, 2006 - 01:10pm PT
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Just call it "pulling on gear", mention the term "french free" as equivalent, then give an explanation of how that term came about. Then your bases are covered.
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spyork
Trad climber
Fremont, CA
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Feb 10, 2006 - 01:12pm PT
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Geez, dont be so politically correct!!!
French Free is not so bad a thing to say. Changing that is almost as bad as changing French Fries to Freedom Fries.
If anyone serves me 'Freedom Fries' I will throw them back.
Maybe if you have drawing of French people with bombs on their heads...
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eddie7
Trad climber
London, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Feb 10, 2006 - 01:17pm PT
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I asked my wife, who's French, and she's cool with it.
She feels it's not derogatory.
Go with it.
cheers.
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Loom
climber
167 stinking feet above sea level : (
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Feb 10, 2006 - 01:26pm PT
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It's an excellent oxymoron.
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Muckus
Mountain climber
Las Vegas
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Feb 10, 2006 - 01:26pm PT
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Chris:
I think you are right to be sensitive to this issue and I'd recommend you not use "french free" in a guide book. I'm not qualified to be a purist when it comes to technique, but it seems to me that hanging or stepping on artificial pro, however briefly, is a transition from free to aid climbing. You could avoid engendering hard feelings and be consistent with established definitions if you described using pro for support as "aid".
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malabarista
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Feb 10, 2006 - 01:31pm PT
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Sort of like cartoons of the prophet Mohammed, you might not be offended, but others could be...if your intent isn't to raise a ruckus or a debate, these things should be considered.
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pc
climber
Eastside
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Feb 10, 2006 - 01:33pm PT
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Doesn't bother me but I'm not French. If you really want to be PC post the question to UK rec.climbing or summitpost.org
pc
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Feb 10, 2006 - 01:35pm PT
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Parenthesis are your "friend."
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Nor Cal
Trad climber
San Mateo
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Feb 10, 2006 - 01:44pm PT
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Chris, have you not already used the term in your road to the nose book? I think you said it is a valueable skill...
We live in the good 'ol USA, you have freedom of speech, use it.
the term French Free is not offensive and you should not even think twice about using it. You did not make up the term, it has been around for as long as I can recall. Is McDonalds going to stop using the term french fry because it may be offensive.
I dont think that there will be rioting in the streets of France because you used this term.
If we keep cowering and are so worried about offending someone else we will give away our freedom.
The term "gay" means "happy", but now if a hetrosexual guy uses it he can offend a homosexual guy. So does this mean that the theme song to the Flintstones where they sing "have a gay old time" is now offensive? its all BS.
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jim thornburg
climber
el cerrito, ca
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Feb 10, 2006 - 01:47pm PT
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Hi Chris,
It's such an old term, and a style that's practiced way more in Yosemite now than anywhere else.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 10, 2006 - 01:56pm PT
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Well "freedom free" and "EU Free" aren't going to work. And if the shoe fits and is labeled in foreign units then I'd say call a spade a spade. I do think you should be more concerned with explaining the typical/accepted use of the tactic rather than what it's called. I think from a couple of the posts above that's where the potential for misunderstanding and confusion lie.
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Wade Icey
Social climber
the EPC
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Feb 10, 2006 - 02:01pm PT
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Elipsis...are "more friendly."
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tomtom
climber
Seattle, Wa
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Feb 10, 2006 - 02:16pm PT
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A0: pulling or stepping on gear.
Simple enough.
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Chris W
Social climber
Eldo
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Feb 10, 2006 - 02:20pm PT
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"French Freeing" is cute and sexy.
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alpinist
Trad climber
tahoe city
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Feb 10, 2006 - 02:21pm PT
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Use it. I think it's an accepted term but if you're really worried I'd also look into usage of the following as well:
American death triangle (offends americans? Hmmm...not)
jugging (sexual innuendo?)
deadman anchor (OBviously insensitive)
Short roping (perhaps use "length challenged")
Aiders (the medical community will take exception)
and of course the Singapore Sling...uh, is that a climbing term?
I'm SURE there's more.
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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Feb 10, 2006 - 02:27pm PT
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Beaking on a Deadhead? Ow!
Use it. Everyone knows what it means.
Knowing the origins of this term might make you feel better- maybe you should swap some of those guidebooks for an OED and figure out when the first (printed)usage was. I bet there's a reason it's not called 'Zulu free'-- seems like the French came late to the free-climbing party. Obviously, they've more than made up for this by now.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Feb 10, 2006 - 02:31pm PT
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Chris,
Go spend three weeks in Paris.
After that you will know what to do.
Juanito
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Edge
Trad climber
New Durham, NH
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Feb 10, 2006 - 02:36pm PT
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Everyone knows what "french free" means, but if you don't want to piss someone off or pretend that it was not used for the last 30 +/- years, then "yard on some gear" gets the same point across.
N'est pas?
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Feb 10, 2006 - 02:40pm PT
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The type of climbing you're trying to label is key to how you climb fast. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it pretty much defines your style of climbing. You pull on gear when you have to if it means you'll go faster. You use your hand and feet on natural features when it offers faster progress. It seems simple enough and it may not be revolutionary but a lot of people(myself included) tend to get bogged down in an extremely methodical approach to aid climbing where in the process of moving from step to step, piece to piece you forget to look around and take advantage of what the route offers. Your style of aid climbing relies on a much more fluid and dynamic style of movement. When you're pulling on gear or moving from one aider step to another your body is moving like a free climber would move. Rather than try and sum it up with a single word like "french free" I would carve out space in the script for a more lengthy explanation what you're talking about. Give video examples. Perhaps call it "dynamic aid climbing".
Take it for what its worth. That’s what I’ve learned from climbing with you.
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Chris W
Social climber
Eldo
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Feb 10, 2006 - 02:43pm PT
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I hooked the "DEADHEAD" and Stuck my "PECKER" in.
David. French Freeing and A0 is when you are pulling on gear with no aiders to get to a higher better hold or a higher better placement to do it again. You would do this for two reasons. One reason to go faster. Second Reason, You are up high on a Free route and cant free the section so you pull through it. 3rd reason, You are just plain lazy and have no ethics what so ever.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Feb 10, 2006 - 03:03pm PT
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Tomtom is right. A0, it's that simple.
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Feb 10, 2006 - 03:04pm PT
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I don't remember saying that I don't know what "french fee" means. My point was that instead of focusing on the term "french free" as most know it that it might be helpful for him to speak to his general style of climbing and avoid the term all together. I think that what he is talking about goes a bit beyond the typical accepted definition of "french fee". Just one guys opinion and I suppose not really what he was asking for in the first place so my bad.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 10, 2006 - 03:08pm PT
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I disagree with the "A0" characterization. While functionally equivalent from a "weighting a piece" perspective, the means and reason for doing so are different to the point where "A0" (with aiders) and French freeing are radically different tactics and a distinction should be made between them.
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Chris W
Social climber
Eldo
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Feb 10, 2006 - 03:10pm PT
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Damn internet...It's so easy to miscommunicate on here. I need to start cuting and pasting.
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Chris W
Social climber
Eldo
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Feb 10, 2006 - 03:15pm PT
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"I disagree with the "A0" characterization. While functionally equivalent from a "weighting a piece" perspective, the means and reason for doing so are different to the point where "A0" (with aiders) and French freeing are radically different tactics and a distinction should be made between them"
When u use aiders on "A0" then it's "A1". I always thought A0 was pulling on pro and using your feet to gain progress. AS the same as French freeing. When you repeatedly pull on gear over and over again, that would be Crack Jugging with pro. What's worth.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Feb 10, 2006 - 03:17pm PT
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"Yarding" on gear
"grab and go"
AO (commonly understood, i think?)
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tofu turkey
Social climber
Rancho Relaxo
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Feb 10, 2006 - 03:33pm PT
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French Free Climbing is no more offensive than, say, dating teenage girls when your pushing 30. Go for it!
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Feb 10, 2006 - 03:49pm PT
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^^i love it when people push the personal crusades down everyone's throats. must make them feel better
back to the topic at hand, i think "pulling on gear" or A0 are good choices.
if we keep associateing nationalities with styles, nailing could soon become "'Merican aid: beat the sh1t out of everything within reach, as long as it makes you feel safer"
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Feb 10, 2006 - 03:53pm PT
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If your guides are going to get translated, make sure yarding on gear does not become metering on gear.
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Chris W
Social climber
Eldo
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Feb 10, 2006 - 04:06pm PT
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Tofu, My Girlfriend is 25 leave me alone. Besides, I am a late bloomer.
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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Feb 10, 2006 - 04:56pm PT
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It is climbing, have fun with it! A term like that being offensive, am I even living in the same world as you are??? Obviously I'm not...
French Fries = Freedom Fries, holy hell what are you talking about?!?! I've never heard that before! I don't even get it but must be on the news or something.
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kevin Fosburg
Sport climber
park city,ut
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Feb 10, 2006 - 05:02pm PT
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I think "french free" is an archaic term that should be replaced by something more descriptive, especially in print.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Feb 10, 2006 - 05:41pm PT
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IMHO, "French Free" is no more offensive then "American Death Triangle."
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pc
climber
Eastside
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Feb 10, 2006 - 05:49pm PT
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Origin?
Where did the name French Free originate? Another French climbing term "Gaston" is cool because it's named after a Frenchman known for his herioc er..."lift and separate" move.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Feb 10, 2006 - 05:52pm PT
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You might not want change references to Polished Face as well.
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cordata
Trad climber
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Feb 10, 2006 - 06:20pm PT
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"French Free" is no more offensive to the French that what the French call an "American Stop" is to Americans. In France (and Quebec I think) an American Stop is when you approach a stop sign, slow down and roll thru without quite stopping.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Feb 10, 2006 - 07:07pm PT
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I always thought that was a "California stop"
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scuffy b
climber
S Cruz
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Feb 10, 2006 - 07:16pm PT
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Used to be a Hollywood stop.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 10, 2006 - 07:41pm PT
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Isn't french free cheating? Hence the word "french" in front of "free".
Otherwise it would just be free climbing.
So anything in front of "free" would qualify as bondage?
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Michael Moron
Social climber
Davison, MI
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Feb 10, 2006 - 09:00pm PT
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It is definitely offensive to us butt-kissing liberals. The French are our heros and we should not slander them.
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BoKu
Trad climber
Douglas Flat, CA
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Feb 10, 2006 - 09:20pm PT
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If you can't use a mildly offensive term on occasion, then the terrorists have won!
But seriously, I think you should explain the term on first use, say that it might be considered offensive to some, apologize in advance for any offense, note that it is already widely used, and move on.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 10, 2006 - 11:05pm PT
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in all my years of climbing I have never heard "French Free" used in any but a derogatory way.
But then there is also:
"Euro-death-knot" EDK (see other recent thread)
And then the couloir on Mt. McKinely on the west butt route dubbed the "Orient Express"...
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estwing
Trad climber
montreal
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Feb 10, 2006 - 11:27pm PT
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For what its worth I am an anglophone who lives in Quebec. The term French free doesn't bother me, I think its funny, but I will admit to being hesistant to using the term with Francophone people around. I have stopped mid sentence before and thought long enough to say "um, yeah pulled on gear".
The Quebec French say "J'ai tirer sur un pro" " I pulled on gear"
For what its worth, we should try to get rid of "offensive" terms in climbing.
Sam
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cts
Trad climber
sw PA
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Feb 11, 2006 - 12:07am PT
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Since when are politicy correct terms so important to climbers? French free is an accepted term well known and used by climbers all over the world.
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cts
Trad climber
sw PA
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Feb 11, 2006 - 12:07am PT
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Since when are politicy correct terms so important to climbers? French free is an accepted term well known and used by climbers all over the world.
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Larry
Trad climber
Reno NV
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Feb 11, 2006 - 04:42pm PT
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Ed said:
> in all my years of climbing I have never heard "French Free" used in any but a derogatory way.
I've only heard it used in an ironic way.
The term gained currency only after the Euros showed us that their methods led to levels of difficulty that the Stonemasters only dreamed of.
With all due respect to the Stonemasters.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Feb 11, 2006 - 05:12pm PT
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Hey Larry, I don't understand your post. "French Free" has meant holding onto protection to get past hard spots for a long time, at least since the early 1970s. It has nothing to do with hard free climbing; it applies to easy, fast aid climbing.
I am not sure that I agree with Ed on it being a derogatory phrase. I suppose if someone were to claim a free ascent pulling on protection, it would be ironic and derogatory. If it is meant as fast A0 aid, then it is just fast aid.
Hey Chris, I have only a vague sense of this, but it seems to me that the term came from descriptions of climbing in books published by French climbers in the 1960s. Rebuffat picture books ring a bell. Anyone have any similar thoughts or copies of Rebuffat 's books? Anyway if you are thinking it is inappropriate to call pulling through “French Free” call it A0.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 11, 2006 - 06:23pm PT
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Perhaps I am overly moralistic and just hear "French Free" and assume it is bad.
A quick look through Rebuffat's On Ice and Snow and Rock didn't yield any reference to pulling on a piece for fast free climbing.
I did uncover this passage related to climbing on page 74:
"There are also subsidary rules.
The first is to avoid using the knees. A knee, when placed in a hold, swivels or rolls; even worse, it transmits no message to the climber, whereas the foot is a highly sensitive organ and transmits small sensations which matter a great deal. A climber on a pitch he has already climbed before wil get quite a different sense of contact if he is using the soles of a different thickness from last time, even if they are mounted on exactly the same model of boot. Moreover, giddiness is caused not only by a disturbance in the head but can equally well spring from sensations arising in other parts of the body - particularly the feet - and transmitted to the brain."
Watch out for giddy feet...
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estwing
Trad climber
montreal
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Feb 11, 2006 - 08:16pm PT
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Radical, what language do Quebec Francophones use and love so much they want to start their own country? FRENCH, therefore using the word French to indicate some lesser form of climbing could be offensive.
whatever.
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marty(r)
climber
beneath the valley of ultravegans
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Feb 11, 2006 - 08:57pm PT
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Climb free or the terrorists will have won.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Feb 11, 2006 - 10:28pm PT
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Hey Radical, I have never climbed in France, but you are describing what I vaguely remember about the origin of "French Free."
Hey Ed, when I was a very 'wet-behind-the-ears' wannabe climber, puffed about some smallish climb I had done, I pontificated about not using one's knees. Kim Schmitz stepped in, told me I was full of sh#t, and said that one's knees were a much a part of one's body as any other.
Kim was really big. He had the prettiest girl friend. He climbed El Cap.
I agreed.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 11, 2006 - 11:05pm PT
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Roger, we had so many rules back then it is a wonder we ever got up anything...
...yes, the knee thing is definitely bullshit (or perhaps a better word, deprecated), but no one would believe me when I said there was this rule... and the old day penalty was buying the wine (or beer, depending on France or the US). So not so bad.
I use my knee these days, but then I need to use all parts of my body now to get up things.
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fletch
Social climber
South Lake Tahoe, Ca.
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Feb 12, 2006 - 10:16pm PT
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Chris,
Use it. Then I'll know what your talking about. Pushing ethics and taking offense about such a thing are one in the same. Silly. I must say that I'm way fired up to see your new book. I have been able to climb harder than 5.9, but haven't had to rely on aid yet. I just lower back to the ground.
fletch F. Fletch
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426
Sport climber
Campus Punks Slab, Rocktown
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Feb 13, 2006 - 11:07am PT
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Funny, Fletch.
Honest to (a paternal monotheistic deity) that's how I learned how to climb. Those 'old's cool' South Shore boyz used to lower you any time you weighted the rope.
Thank (same deity) that I "discovered" bouldering at Pie Shop one day. Led to the long ethical slide that I'm still on...
On the OT, I think 'French Free' is pretty common term for walls; but I like Reno Lar's wry comment as well...
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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Feb 13, 2006 - 11:49am PT
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Funny how the old dads used to lionize bouldering as the purest form of climbing, the best training, etc etc, but if you fell off over and over again with a rope on then you were suddenly some kind of cheat.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Feb 13, 2006 - 12:20pm PT
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Hrm...I was always under the impression that is was SUPPOSED to be offensive. Apparently it isn't doing the job...maybe it should be changed to "'The French are F*cking Pussies and So Are You' Free" so as to be absolutely clear.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Feb 13, 2006 - 02:42pm PT
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Belgium invented French Fries.
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Degaine
climber
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Feb 14, 2006 - 08:38am PT
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I learned to climb in France, and I found the term “French Free” to be funny/ironic when I moved back to California.
In the French guidebooks it’s either indicated as an A0 move, or its mentioned that there are one or two moves where one has to pull on gear (tire clou). Most of these climbs are considered “free-climbs” or at least climbs that do not require any aid climbing skills whatsoever. Royal Arches falls into this category, for example.
Anyway, if French Free is part of the common climbing vernacular in the U.S. then just use it.
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Mig
Trad climber
Coimbra, Portugal
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Feb 14, 2006 - 09:20am PT
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French free = A0 (very simple and not offensive)
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Feb 14, 2006 - 11:29am PT
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Imagine a 400 foot dead vertical wall. A wall that you cannot get a no hands rest on. You're putting up a first ascent. You climb 200 feet of 5.11c knobs. You hook a knob and drill your anchor which you then hang on. Your partner follows, gets to the anchor, clips it and then hangs. He then re-racks and sends the other 200 feet of 5.11c to the top. Router rating: A0 5.11c. The anchor you hung on did not allow for upward progress. It did keep you from climbing the entire 400 feet of 5.11c freeclimbable rock and thus the entire route isn't free. Go back with a 400 foot cord and send w/o the anchor if you want to call it totally free.
Now.. imagine you want to blast up a 10 pitch climb as fast as you can. Imagine it's on El Cap. If someone gave me beta on doing this I'd hope they told me there are sections you'll want to french free. Clip bolt, yard to next bolt, clip it and yard to the next. Yard one more time to 5.10- ground and you are back to free climbing the rock.
To me the terms come from two different worlds (and would't it be C0 not A0 in most cases anyway?) and should stay that way.
A0 != french free. Maybe it makes more sense to the speed freaks.
I'm part french and don't consider the term offensive.
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climberweenie
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Feb 14, 2006 - 02:02pm PT
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distantly relevant to this thread: cubic zirconium is called "American Diamond" in India.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Feb 14, 2006 - 02:27pm PT
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As a total noob when it comes to climbing history, I'd always understood "French Free" to mean "pulling on gear for a moment or to rest while otherwise doing the climb without other aid but then claiming a free ascent."
Dave
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Feb 14, 2006 - 02:38pm PT
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i think "french free" is a fairly established term in most circles. my only question is, what does it really mean?
i have always thought of "french free" being something that a climber might resort to in the event they are unwilling (too scary?) or unable (too hard?) to pull through a particular move or section. whenever free climbing, i have always considered that to be cheating, and not something to be taken lightly.
i think the only climb i have ever done where i intentionally pulled on gear while not fully aiding was on the NWFoHD, and i didn't personally think of it as the same thing as "french free" climbing (although it may have been?). we were just doing whatever was the fastest thing. i know that we free'd some 5.10, and i may have yarded on gear through some 5.8 if it seemed somehow inobvious, i was just trying to move.
i guess what i am saying is that i think of that practice as "anything goes", and i think "french free" is different, and somehow it's worse, it's something i have always tried to avoid at all costs.
edit-
but any of these terms is going to get the point across, you are not trying to free climb, just to be as fast as you can be.
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