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MisterE
Social climber
Cinderella Story, Outa Nowhere
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 28, 2011 - 08:33pm PT
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They used supplemental oxygen and had sherpas fix ropes on Lhotse while they were climbing Everest.
I am curious what folks think about this.
It seems to me that forgoing the pure alpine style for "glory" lessens this accomplishment, but it is quite a push, nonetheless.
http://www.climbing.com/news/hotflashes/everest_and_lhotse_in_less_than_21_hours/
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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May 28, 2011 - 09:29pm PT
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Kinda like flashing a 5.14 after doing a shoulder stand.
Now someone will need to do it unassisted.
Uli? Where's Uli? Oh, I think he's there. This might inspire him.
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skywalker
climber
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May 29, 2011 - 01:29am PT
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Aghh...To what end? I have climbed the diamond car 2 car in 19- hours 198 times. But I always had only one great friend with me each time and never had to pay her/him.
Cheers!
S...
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altelis
Mountain climber
DC
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May 29, 2011 - 09:07am PT
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Not that the pure physical feat isn't remarkable, but the Climbing article linked says "21 hours between summits". This is certainly not 21 hrs from base to base, which is kinda what it sounded like at first.
Still, thats a hell of a lot of altitude gained/lost in 21 hrs!
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK
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May 29, 2011 - 09:19am PT
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Impressive. If I met them I'd be glad to buy a beer and hear the story.
Yet I'm easily impressed and will buy just about anyone a beer and listen to how they got their car out of the mud last Wednesday too.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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May 29, 2011 - 10:54am PT
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If you don't think climbing anything is done for "glory" much of the time then you're in denial.
Now, obviously, had they done it without fixed lines it would be friggin amazing.
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steve shea
climber
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May 29, 2011 - 01:21pm PT
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Hopefully this little stunt will fade into well deserved obscurity. Not even close to Loretan's round trip of the Hornbein Couloir in 40 hrs or Messner's solo 3 WEEK RUN across the himal. The south side of Everest, S Col route is not much different than a ranger/naturalist tour in Jellystone Park.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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May 29, 2011 - 01:38pm PT
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I'm with Coz on this.
Be nice, I have known this "kid" since the day he was born (Santa Cruz) and all BS aside, in the climbing world of today with fixed ropes to Heart on the Salathe, friggin sport route bolts proliferate on once sacred walls and celebrity speed climbing events on El Cap with all the hype of Hollywood what is there to be so anal-lytical about. It's not like Everest is a virgin. The rules went out the door years ago. If you want to draw comparison to Uli then perhaps everyone should stay home.
Fire away!
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OR
Trad climber
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May 29, 2011 - 01:57pm PT
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Can you imagine planning this around camp. "So we are going to try and summit Everest and while we are there you guys fix lines on Lhotse so we can Jug them when we get back down. Then notify the media for a press release and a photo op when we are done" they would have been laughed out of camp bitd. I really hate whats going on over there.
Everest ...producing motivational speakers year after year out of "climbers" who could not tie into the end of a rope without a locking biner and a guide...
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steve shea
climber
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May 29, 2011 - 03:16pm PT
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OR that's exactly what goes on. Only not in camp but thousands of miles away, way early in pre expedition planning. Not all, but many of these expeds are funded based on a "first". First to ski, first to snow board, first woman, first ... These firsts become a vehicle the sponsors then can hang their hats on and use it in post expedition hype to recoupe expense money and or advertise. But these firsts are manufactured and to me quite meaningless in the context of what has already been done in good style. This was not good style and not newsworthy. But I have to confess I have taken part in these extravaganzas. I have worked for ABC, BBC, ESPN, several Breashears films so I have seen first hand what a crock it is. Selfish really...let's see what can we do to get the sponsors attention so we can get a free trip to Nepal or Tibet. It's even worse, we got paid. All this while the sherpas risked their lives for our pursuit of BS. To the general public this is a big deal. It's not! The only thing it is really good for is the economy of Nepal and especially the sherpa families. Pardon the rant, I guess I'm too traditional. But I'm jaded. I'd much rather climb a 7000 meter peak in good style than ever go back to an 8000 meter peak and have to use O's and all the other attendant BS. I'm not strong enough nor motivated enough to want an 8000 meter summit because of what I would have to give up to get there.
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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May 29, 2011 - 08:23pm PT
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Ho Hum........
TY
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Guck
Trad climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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May 29, 2011 - 11:36pm PT
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Why stop flying in Lukla. Just take a heliride to the South col. Don't forget yout espresso machine, and have a bunch of sherpas unroll miles of ladders to the summit. Where do we stop?
Climbing a mountain is just that. Go through every step to get to the summit on your own. There are no Bonatti or Messners left in this world. Just a bunch of high altitude media seeking tourists that usually do not even have the ethics to pick up their junk from the mountain! This "event" is not worth mentioning.
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MisterE
Social climber
Cinderella Story, Outa Nowhere
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Topic Author's Reply - May 30, 2011 - 01:03am PT
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Bruce, thanks for your working-man's perspective. It makes the jaunt a fun one, leaving the lessening of it for others.
I can't help but think of Goran Kropp (RIP) riding his bike from Norway as the alternate perspective.
Thanks for all your thoughts - I learned something from this.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 30, 2011 - 01:33am PT
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Perhaps we need a thread slagging motivational speakers, and their alleged feats. The current fad here is people "climbing" Kilimanjaro, for some worthy cause or other, and making a big hoorah about it.
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steve shea
climber
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May 30, 2011 - 12:07pm PT
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That is my point it's a "goof" all right. The sherpas risked their lives, fixed lines and hauled cylinders for a goof! As an aside do you know that most members do not even haul their own O's. Typically the sherpas do it along with the rest of the kit for high camps. The talent then comes along and "clips in". The sherpas on many of these goofs are merely cannon fodder to launch the talent to the summit. Loretan and partner had no sherpas, no lines, no O's that I saw. They had an LO, a kitchen boy and their girl friends. Did the Hornbein, went home. Now that is style. I don't know Mike but he did it in style he is comfortable with, good for him I guess. I know that super alpinism on the highest mountains in the world can be done in good style. It is being done in good style but it is really only meaningful to a climbing audience...no press, no dough! Look at the South Ridge of Gyachung Kang. It's on the border between Everest/Pumo Ri and Cho Oyu. It's just few meters under 8K. That line is a giant Himalayan Walker Spur, has a very high pucker factor and has been done in style. That is news, that is impressive.
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steve shea
climber
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May 30, 2011 - 03:50pm PT
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Yes Bruce on each one of my trips I felt more and more as though I was selling out. By the time of my last I had come a full 180 on my views of exped climbing. On one trip a close sherpa friend was killed in a serac avalanche right behind me. He left a young wife and four children in Thame. It was this type of experience coupled with the massive expense and logistical nightmare of moving people and equipment that turned me around. The good news is that there are a lifetime of really high quality lower altitude things to do without all the BS. Now I know of a peak on the Nepali/tibetan border that would blow your socks off and if anyone is interested...
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Scole
Trad climber
San Diego
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May 30, 2011 - 10:10pm PT
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I totally agree with Steve Shea. There are very few climbers on 8000 m peaks today, mostly just rich guys wanting the trophy to hang on the wall behind their desks. The mountains suffer, and the people who live below, while they make a little cash from expeditions, suffer and die on a regular basis.
There are so many beautiful mountains to climb in the world. Why not pick goals for their aesthetic value, not the numbers attached to their summits. On my two trips to Nepal I was disgusted with the state the mountains are left in by climbers, who seem to care only about tagging the summit and leave their garbage, along with their dead, or near dead, friends behind in order to secure their momentary places in history.
Go explore,do something different: Climb things you only saw a picture of in a book. Remember, climbing is about the adventure.
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Guck
Trad climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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May 30, 2011 - 11:03pm PT
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Scole, you are right on the issue. The South col is a dump despite several expeditions not to the summit, but to the col to clean it. The participants have my admiration, as they are devoted to the mountain and not to the trophies. I will never forget having to cut out pounds of frozen fixed ropes on McKinley, just to be able to reach the ice or rock. Trophy climbers are just selfish pigs with no respect for their environment!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 30, 2011 - 11:18pm PT
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Having lived with the Rolwaling Sherpas and seen their standard of living go from some of the poorest in the world to middle class in one generation thanks to Mt. Everest, I have a different take on all this. Yes, the Sherpas are exploited, but if there was no guided mountaineering, they would still be living in dark and freezing-cold hovels eating 12 lbs. of boiled potatoes a day because they were too poor to buy rice. 25% of their children would die and their life span would be mid 50's. And quite a few of them would die in the mountains from cutting hay on steep cliffs with no climbing gear, avalanches, bridges breaking and so on. That was life in the good old days in 1974.
I say let the tourists struggle up Everest, for them it is a big deal. Chomolungma herself doesn't seem to mind. In fact the, the goddess who lives on Everest, Miyolangsangma, (not the mother goddess of the earth as fashioned by westerners) is the goddess of wealth and has richly blessed the Sherpas through the main means possible - climbing on her flanks. So they believe, and so they pray to her.
Of course the Himalayas are still dangerous especially for the top rated climbers who try them in alpine style. Enough big names have died doing that, the Sherpas don't have to worry about losing their jobs any time soon. And if you want to pay them all your money, there are many remote places in Nepal where no official would even know you're there. Of course if you get in trouble, you're on your own though that too may change since well known Himalayan climber Simon Moro is working now for Swiss Air Rescue in Nepal.
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MisterE
Social climber
Cinderella Story, Outa Nowhere
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Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2011 - 02:10am PT
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So, probably like many who read this, I was thinking he went to Nepal to do this double summit.
Didn't realize he was a guide in the area.
I can totally understand the fun "aside" of the second summit - hell, you got money, connections, and people willing to help you make the double bid.
Why not? You look at this stuff all the time, you are on the mountain regularly - this alone has to reduce the perception of risk both for yourself and the sherpas that are also there all the time.
I am leaning more towards fun-jaunt-for-a-guide now.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 31, 2011 - 04:56am PT
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I can fix you up with some great Sherpas from my village.
You have to be careful, there are a lot of other ethnicities claiming to be Sherpas
these days who aren't as experienced.
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steve shea
climber
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May 31, 2011 - 10:07am PT
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Jan, I spent quite a while just one valley away from the Rowaling over the Menlung La. We did some 6000 meter peaks for aclimatizing on the long wall from Gauri Sankar to the Menlung La. Awesome! We had a permit for Menlungtse which was the highest unclimbed peak in the world at the time. I think it is around 7200M. Riley, the Rowaling region is one of the areas. Both from the Nepal side from Beding and from the Tibetan side which has more unclimbed technical looking peaks than I've ever seen on any of my travels. Just incredible. You would go to Tingri in Tibet, then travel to Cho Oyu base. From there SW to the Rongshar Gorge, Chugompa and Darzhan. Then up the Menlung Valley. About 3 weeks trek in. You could also view the same area from the Menlung La hiking out of Beding on the Nepal side. Most of the money from 8000M peaks goes to the govt.not the sherpas. The peak fees/permits are huge. The way to really support sherpas safely is with trekking. Everest is a money machine and because of its notoriety standards will go out the window. But small alpine climing teams can still support the sherpa community. There are actually many ways. I'd go back to the Rowaling in a heartbeat. MisterE the risk is never reduced, good discussion though.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 31, 2011 - 11:39am PT
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Steve-
Good for you! I've always wanted to explore the Menlung Valley and the Valley that goes past Menlungtse (the Sherpa and Tibetan name of which is Jobo Garu) and over to the Khumbu to the east. I've done Trashi Labtsa pass to the Khumbu three times now.
I climbed to the top of Menlung La from the Rolwaling side in 1979 and the crust on the snow was so thin, we would sink into your arm pits trying to walk on it, so we did the last thousand feet or so crawling on our bellies like crabs to spread out the weight. When we got to the top, there was an Eskimo type igloo only 100 feet down the Chinese side which we figured their patrols were using since no climbing was allowed in Tibet then. Not wishing to end up in a Chinese prison, we took a few pictures and crawled back down the Nepalese side. You know Menlung is where the first yeti tracks were seen and photographed by Shipton.
Both Menlung La pass shown here and Trashi Labtsa pass are about 19,700 feet with all the surrounding mountains rising above that.
Menlung means medicine country because of all the medicinal plants found lower down towards Rongshar.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 31, 2011 - 12:05pm PT
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Here's a great photo of Menlung La from the Rolwaling side which shows how heavily crevassed it is and how tricky the route finding especially going up.
http://www.mountainsoftravelphotos.com/Gauri%20Shankar%20and%20Menlungtse/
Rolwaling%202008/01%20Kathmandu%20to%20Beding/slides/
Rolwaling%2004%2005%20Menlung%20La%20Close%20Up.html
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steve shea
climber
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May 31, 2011 - 12:21pm PT
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Jan great photos. We did recon up that glacier and around to NE side of Menlungtse. Menlungtse is just barely visible in your photo on the left. It is one very steep mountain. No easy way up but we did not do the entire circumnab so we did not see the true north face. We were only the third group ever allowed in. Shipton in 53', Norwegians in 87' and our trip in 88'. We saw tibetans that had never seen westerners before, still in home spun clothing and animal skins. The only vestiges of western civilization on many were cheap chinese sneakers and alu cooking pots. Yak herder traders would trade salt for such items in Tingri or Lhasa and bring the stuff back to the villages. The sad part was to see first hand the brutality of the Han chinese to their Tibetan "hosts" and the total destruction of villages, gompas and stupas. Unforgetable monasteries and tibetan religious artifacts shelled to dust. This was all during the cultural revolution of Mao in the 60's. To read about it was one thing but to see first hand left little doubt that genocide was the goal. Yeah JOBO GARU and JOMO TSERINGMA what a valley!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 31, 2011 - 12:58pm PT
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Steve-
If you were climbing to the left/ west of Menlung La as viewed from the Rolwaling side, then you were indeed on the true Menlungtse, not Jobo Garu. I believe it was Bonnington who first called Jobo Garu which is to the east of Menlung La by the name of Menlungtse which has erroneously been repeated now many times and misprinted on many maps.
Many of the shrines associated with Milarepa which you saw destroyed in the Rongshar Valley have been rebuilt now often at great cost to the Chinese. If nothing else, they realize their value for attracting tourism. There has even been talk of making Lapchi and Rongshar in the north and Rolwaling in the south, into an international park so that people could circumambulate Jomo Tseringma.
If anybody's interested, I've just published an academic paper on the sacred history of that area. Those valleys have been holy since at least the 1100's and the Jomo Tseringma for centuries before that. Also, Peter Boardman's account of climbing Jomo Tseringma/ Gauri Shankar in his book Sacred Summits gives a good feel for the area.
The photos I used to illustrate my paper were from Scottish climber Tom Weir's 1956 expedition to Rolwaling, four years after Hillary and Riddiford became the first westerners to visit there (Shipton did not descend Menlung La thinking it too crevassed).
Anyway, I hope we have convinced the readers of this thread that there are many adventures waiting for them still, in the Nepalese Himalaya far from the Mt. Everest circus.
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steve shea
climber
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May 31, 2011 - 02:26pm PT
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Jan I am interested in your paper and would love to read it. On my first trip to Tibet in 86' I visited Milarepa's cave. That sparked my interest in Sherpa and Tibetan culture. Also if you are interested I have many photos from the valley looking up. Many toward the Menlung La. As a matter of fact we took skis and skied on the lower flanks of that side of the valley. Also on down days we would rock climb and boulder on perfect menlung granite. Our base camp was on grass. Himalayan wildlife abounds, wildflowers, the trek in. We did not see a soul for three months. As I said I could go back in a heartbeat. With the changes you mentioned can you still get the bus from Kath to near the border? It would take a while to dig out the photos. Let me know by PM. BTW we photographed some interesting tracks as well.
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Ottawa Doug
Social climber
Ottawa, Canada
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May 31, 2011 - 04:43pm PT
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Jean-Christophe Lafaille (France) soloed Gasherbrum 1 & 2 in a push over a couple of days with no oxygen and no support. That's what super alpinism is about.
Cheers,
Doug
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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May 31, 2011 - 06:17pm PT
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Jan-
Thanks for all the excellent photos!! Imagine! A thread about CLIMBING!!
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Gene
climber
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May 31, 2011 - 06:33pm PT
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DMT,
Jean-Christophe Lafaille was HARD. Do a search for his epic descent from an attempt on Annapurna. He died trying to solo an 8,000m peak in winter (Makalu, Manaslu??). In that genre of climbing, he was VERY bold.
g
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Lafaille died on Makalu.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Steve-
I have sent an email. Regular bus now runs from Kathmandu to Lhasa when the road is open. The Chinese are paving the road up to their side of the border.
I have never been to Milarepa's cave but the Sherpa nun I lived with spent 3 months doing 100,000 prostrations there. You know Rolwaling is a beyul, a hidden valley sacred to Guru Rinpoche while Lapchi, Rongshar and Menlung are sacred to Milarepa and both valleys are holy to the Tseringma. The reason there is so much wildlife there is that it is considered a sin to kill anything in any of those sacred valleys.
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
BIG ISLAND or Vail ; just following the sun.......
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EPO or the bottled stuff; it's all cheating yourself.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I think it's TOTAL bullsh#t. Using bad tatics to set dubious records is of no account.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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I think donini's on to something here! He should have quoted R. Crumb's Mr. Natural: "It don't mean schitt."
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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donini-
Alot of no account things give people happiness and get them through the night.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan-
donini is a "hard core traditionalist."
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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I am aware that donini is a hard core traditionalist - about climbing matters anyway.
He's the guy who wants to take the cables off Half Dome.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 17, 2011 - 06:40am PT
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I'm in Iran with some internet time. Coz, I have never been interested in 8000 meter peaks- different strokes for different folks. Jan, your comment about things people do to get them thru the night is great but I don't think it applies here. Using such tactics to set speed records seems to be about recognition and not personal satisfaction, just my take.
edit: Since there is nothing intrinsically valuable about summiting a mountain, the style in which you do so becomes all that more meaningfull.
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Mister_Roborto
Trad climber
Queensland
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Jun 17, 2011 - 10:21am PT
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Hi Mr. Donini:
I'm a couple weeks new to climbing and have a couple of your stunning FA's on my dream list. Given your awesome climbs, I am much interested to learn a little more about your goodself - I note you state 'horses for courses' when it comes to 8000 metre peaks, nonetheless, have you attempted a few 8000 metre peaks?
I agree that style is everything - I sprayed on the net that I'd followed/climbed up Ruper in Eldo Canyon; but truth is I fell on top rope when heading across a traverse, pendulumed from that 'fall' and then gained holds on easier terrain. Climbing 'achievments' since doing Ruper last week have shown me the intrinisic value of going back to climb Ruper honest.
Hope to see you in El Chalten next Jan/Feb and probably ice climbing in Ouray late this year. Bummer you are not in Boulder as we've plans to climb the 1st Flat Iron by torch and near full moon tonight.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 17, 2011 - 10:36am PT
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Does a sprinter take personal satisfaction from breaking the WR in the 100 meter dash while secretly taking steroids or is he more interested in fame and fortune?
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Mister_Roborto
Trad climber
Queensland
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Jun 17, 2011 - 10:46am PT
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Mr. Donini:
The answer to your question is.....both.
If everyone else in the 100m final is doping, then no big deal to some. That said, all who are in the final are likely faster even when running clean then the rest in the aspiring fray.
I was a little confused when reading the amazing Steve House's book where he mentioned rapping off the stuff/(junk?) left behind by others on Nanga. Ethics/style seems a blurred line I've trouble understanding.
I've learnt the benefit of following in others footsteps. Indeed, just the other days we moved far quicker on Dreamweaver, Marthas, Dragons Tail and Halletts because we'd the (previous days) steps of others to follow. Should I return to do those routes again? - only for the intrinsic value of enjoying the trip as my intent was honest and the steps followed the obvious route to safety and success.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 17, 2011 - 10:54am PT
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Ethics/style are often blurred but some things are clearer than others. Using oxygen and having OTHERS fix ropes for your ascent shouldn't cause ethical judgement problems for too many people.
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