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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 8, 2006 - 03:35am PT
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OK here it is. (Gawd! I hope this doesn't need to be labeled part 1.)
Sound off. I'll be back later.
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
pitch above you
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Is this a proposed movie title, or a climbing technique? Either way, I'd say somebody's getting screwed.
Drilled pockets = chipping = unnecessary roughness (10 m penalty slack)
Why wreck the rock?
--->bob
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CAMNOTCLIMB
Trad climber
novato ca
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Rock, you nailed it.
Brian
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Edge
Trad climber
New Durham, NH
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While I agree with the absolutely, positively, no chipping tone of the above posts, I cannot ever condone the practice of "penalty slack."
If you don't know why, then please do not reply.
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
On the outside looking in.
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Why?
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
pitch above you
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"If you don't know why, then please do not reply."
Are you a graduate of the GWB school of constructive dialog? I'm gonna go ahead and join Blowboarder and ask:
Why?
Sheesh you can't even make a joke around here without someone getting all in a bunch about it.
--->bob
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I was wondering how dental hygene was working its way into the ST forum
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burp
Trad climber
Salt Lake City
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Mr. Piton Ron ...
Just curious what your reasoning and/or justification was for allegedly drilling those pockets in Snow Canyon and on that boulder in ZNP.
Any input?
Enjoy!
burp
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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He's looking out for all of us... a kinder, gentler Big Brother.
They're never gonna let this one go, Ron. Maybe you should just say " I f*#ked up and I learned from it, let's move on."
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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if you wanted a discussion, why not lay out the foundation for one? seems like this topic is limited to the few who are familiar w/ your history (or rumors about it?).
why not come clean and then ask for the sounding off?
edit-
were you expecting people to post up in favor of drilling pockets to make climbs go free? not likely.
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
On the outside looking in.
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This thread needs a trip to Davey Jones Locker for maximum value.
"Calling DJ to the flame room, DJ to the flame room, your appointment is ready...."
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
On the outside looking in.
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Oh, and for what it's worth, if you can't see the superior product obtained with a little "comfortizing" and "customization" over the raw deal mother nature provides, you have no vision.
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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ie. Menace to Sobriety - ORG
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kevin Fosburg
Sport climber
park city,ut
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Good point Matt, I agree.
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BCD
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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CAMNOTCLIMB wrote:
"...you nailed it"
That made me laugh. I hope you meant it as a joke. There are a large number of people on this forum that chip holds for upward progress, yet hypocritically bash free climbers that chip holds for upward progress. So if anyone else bothers to respond to this thread, you need to take that into consideration when thinking about their responses.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 8, 2006 - 10:11pm PT
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Matt this was a continuation/spinoff from "Can't get nuts, OK to nail?".
I stand ready to discuss the issue of drilled pockets vs other forms of impact with climbers who can attempt to remain open minded and moderately respectful (well I can hope can't I). It would greatly enhance credibility if people used their real names as well. Furthermore calling people Nazis as well as perjorative terms such as "dumbing down" (very offensive to someone who has lost the power of speech) will adversely affect my willingness to explore this issue.
As stated my name is Ron Olevsky and I feel that aid climbing is a sort of prosthetic free climbing. The gear becomes an extension of the body. As such I see aid bolts as the ethical equivalent of fingers in drilled pockets. No worse and no better.
While the impact of drilled pockets is substantial initially it then achieves a sort of stability as opposed to serial hammering in aid where the scar continues to worsen. Such scars can grow to dwarf most drilled pockets and achieve no stability as well.
While the very idea can infuriate some of todays climbers so did pitons, bolts, rap bolting and even cams at some point. I suspect that as many free routes get eroded and worn that those who use them may begin to feel like Christian Scientists with acute appendicitis. That drilled pockets (especially in places where they are less likely to be footworn) offer one potential tool in the arsenal for maintaining route viability.
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BCD
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Chipping holds is chipping holds.
Whether it is meant to hold a piton, an aid bolt, or a finger, you are still altering the rock in order to make it climbable.
"dumbing down" is a good term for both forms of chipping. If we can't climb it, we'll MAKE it climbable!
Why don't you just hike to the top?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 8, 2006 - 10:35pm PT
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Please read more carefully Del.
PIN SCARS worsen with repeated use.
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
On the outside looking in.
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So, that face in Snow Creek that you drilled pockets in for free climbing purposes, that was in danger of being pinned out and ruined?
Just want to make sure I'm following ya correctly...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 8, 2006 - 11:25pm PT
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You are not.
Who are you to begin with?
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
On the outside looking in.
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My names Pasha. I poke sticks at things to see what bites?
So what was reason behind drilling those pockets on that face?
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
pitch above you
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Ron, et al.-
I didn't know this thread was an offshoot of the other thread when I made my first response. After I went and read that thread, I was sorta left with the same feeling you get when you step in dogsh#t. There's a lot of vitriol and grandstanding going on. Nonetheless, I like to think of myself as fairly open minded and so I'll stick around for the discussion here.
It sounds like everyone agrees that minimizing impact is a reasonable goal. With this as a given, lets move on to some examples.
Aid climbing, particularly nailing, has a lot of impact over time. Ron, I gather that, when aiding, you expect people to nail only when absolutely necessary, and then with an eye to making scars that will someday allow clean placements. I think this is an admirable and reasonable standard. It allows for the maximum number of ascents to be made with the least impact possible to the stone, and therefore a higher quality of experience for all who climb it. I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth here, and if I am, let me know.
With that aid climbing ethic in mind I find it strange that you would argue that drilling pockets on the FA of a free route is going to have less impact on the rock over time than not drilling them. I have not seen the route in question. Are there edges so friable that with a few repeats the route will be ruined? Would the route have been free-climbable without drilling (at a higher grade)? It seems like drilling here could be taking something away from future climbers of the route, namely the possibility of meeting the rock on its terms. I am truly interested in the response to these questions. I'm trying to figure out what the special circumstances are that would convince you that drilling was a good idea for that route.
Maybe it comes down to what someone is trying to do with their FAs. Are you trying to use the rock as a medium with which to "make a climb" that others will get maximum utility out of or are you trying to get up the rock on its terms with the goal of topping out with as little evidence of your being there as possible? Either approach has some validity as well as some benefits and some drawbacks. But in the long run, both will have a negative effect on the rock.
I'm not one to tell someone else how to climb (although I reserve the right to make all the jokes I want to about penalty slack), and I certainly don't have the climbing CV that a lot of the folks here do. I've got an ethic that I like. It works for me. I personally can't see myself in a situation where drilling a handhold would make a lot of sense to me. You clearly feel otherwise, and I want to understand why. Who knows, I might learn something. I think a lot of the people on this thread and the other one have a similar goal, and different interpretation of how to get there.
--->bob (hayes, if you really have to know)
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Bob,
since I posted the pics on the other thread, I feel compelled to answer a couple things. First, it was in the 80's, a long time gone. Second, I only posted these because PR accused some dude of being a rock rapist. I hate it when folks who live in glass houses throw rocks and bitch, kind of reminds me of politics in the USA.
The route in question would have in all probability gone and stayed without drilled pockets at a reasonable grade. Note that I did not say PR drilled them, let him tell you about that but I do remember what he told me 20 years ago.
My motivation for posting the pictures was to get at the truth. I refrained from doing so for about 2 years now. Ron knows the truth, let him tell you. I just found it hard to swallow that a clean climber thought drilling holds was ok as a creative extension of climbing...I obviously do not feel the same way.
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WBraun
climber
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I have seen and witnessed this phenomena "DRILLED POCKETS" being engineered first hand by another person. I watched as this person actually drill with a power drill a finger pocket where there was none. This was here in Yosemite.
Thus it happens/happened ......
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
On the outside looking in.
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That pocket on The Athiest sure seemed unnatural. Is that what you speak of?
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WBraun
climber
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The Athiest? Where is that?
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
On the outside looking in.
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I think it's in the guidebook as the ChurchBowl area. Not real clear, I just got dragged along for the ride. We walked thru the village towards the hotel and headed up into the woods a bit, rather obscure beta,,,
Steep liebacks down low to a shutdown (at least for me) move pulling out of the steeps onto a thin steep (vert) slab, and the slab doesn't really let up....
WARNING: ACTUAL CLIMBING DISCUSSION, QUICK, INSULT SOMEBODY!!!
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WBraun
climber
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No not there. It's not important where or who did, but to understand why. Isn't this the thread topic?
Why? we are awaiting the explaining from Piton. Both these "Drilled Pockets" were on free routes. Me don't understand why (Pitons version), although at the same time I do understand why (Speculative version).
Funny isn’t it, how everyone always says I'm not one to tell someone else how to climb, but we’re always doing it in some manner or other whether directly or indirectly.
There seems to be no escaping this fact.
Even remaining silent or neutral is still an action that effects a reaction.
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ChrisW
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Swan Slabs?
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ChrisW
Trad climber
boulder, co
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does the Aid route on swan slab have a drilled pocket? or are those pin scars? Can't remember.
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hobo
climber
PDX
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The nose?
The swan slab aid route has drilled pockets for sure. Maybe they were for hooks though, and maybe werner didnt watch those holes get drilled.
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hobo
climber
PDX
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Werner, hows the weather been there? Where is the snow at?
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WBraun
climber
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Just so you may satisfy your curiosity at "Knobby Wall" Lower Merced canyon just before the "Cookie"
Hobo, felt like 80 degrees at Arch rock climbing today. I don't see any snow except high on the rim and certain North Facing places.
Also, somebody is soloing "Shortest Straw" on the Captain
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2006 - 10:45am PT
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Bob Hayes,
my compliments on a well thought post.
Yesterday it was 71 in Zion and I climbed my ass off, asleep by 9:30.
Today looks even better, but I'll try to make some time tonight to respond in detail.
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hobo
climber
PDX
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Ooooh, boy that sounds nice. Do we know whos on shortest straw? Piton Ron, i look forward to your answer.
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burp
Trad climber
Salt Lake City
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Mr. Piton Ron,
burp (i.e. Mike (Hansen)) here ...
I appreciate the clarification and reasoning. Having an understanding of why you would have allegedly drilled the pockets mentioned earlier would allow everyone to rationally discuss the topic thrown out, opinions nothwithstanding. Otherwise, assumptions would be made and this thread would denigrate into another flame war (may still at that?).
My thoughts ...
I won’t opine on aid, since I don’t do a whole lot of it and I haven’t had to place very many pins. As a point of reference, I personally will never drill, chip, nor comfort”ize” holds.
Interesting idea on route viability for free routes. Made even more thought provoking considering sandstone is your primary medium of choice. I look at Wall Street outside of Moab … comparing routes there today to the way they were 15 years ago, there are routes that have changed considerably over the years (face and slab routes). I would imagine that after another 50 – 100 years some of those routes may not even exist anymore. So, drilling holds to keep the routes viable long-term is an interesting idea. That begs the question, however, whether the routes need to still be there or not. Not every piece of rock needs to be climbed (cliché warning). Many quality routes will never need to be altered to be climbable in the future. Furthermore, when I started climbing in the ‘80s I often looked past certain potential FA, since I knew the route wouldn’t be there anymore in several years in the same form and would only end up being some obscure route not worth doing. Drilling and chipping wouldn’t really preserve the same route. It would create a new one that may not be worth altering the rock permanently for. Personally, I can jump onto endless “created” routes in the gym.
I’m not sure whether the route viability reasoning coincides with the boulder you allegedly drilled in ZNP. Was that for viability reasons? Practice, or just to create something that wasn’t there (a boulder problem with a couple of moves)? Other? Any regrets?
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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ahhh... drilled pockets... how fun.
my experience with them is that once the madness starts it's the rock that suffers. First let me say I'm not defending drilling of pockets in any way - I'd neither advocate or do such a deed myself.
There's a little toprope problem on Moonstone Beach called Assembly Line. It's called that because a blank section of rock has a pocket in the middle that was chiseled. I know who drilled it. Others came along and filled it with Bondo. They also filled a non-drilled pocket with the same not knowing any better. The person who drilled the original pocket returned and removed the Bondo from both pockets. Now we have two drilled pockets The folks that attacked it with Bondo returned with Vaseline and filled them both. It was an ugly grease spot on the rock. I went there with a damn blow torch and vaporized and otherwise removed the Vaseline. That was fifteen years ago. The pockets remain and folks climb the route. I'm glad the controversy is over. The rock more than anything suffered.
Here in Arizona there's a variety of places with drilled pockets. The Pit is one and Jacks Canyon is the other. What's sorta sad about the chiseled and drilled stuff at Jacks is the attitude was if you couldn't get the route on your third try pull out the chisel - this happened on 5.10's for crying out loud. Still, it happened and the good news is everyone let it go - the rock didn't suffer more.
I'd clobber someone if they pulled out a chisel in "my" area - Winslow Wall. But I could pretty much care less what others do elsewhere. I find it odd that everyone gets their britches all bunched up about pockets drilled on purpose yet they will climb pin scars all damn day long. Hell, as far as I'm conderned no rock formation is more drilled and chiseled than El Cap.
Whatever... that's my two cents and yeah, ya'll deserve a full refund.
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burp
Trad climber
Salt Lake City
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nature wrote: "that's my two cents and yeah, ya'll deserve a full refund."
LOL, love it!
Enjoy!
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WBraun
climber
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nature
How does rock suffer? I threw a rock and it skimmed the water and then sank. The rock drowned and suffered?
:-)
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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While critiquing our scientific writing abilities, one of my geo profs once said “Rocks do not suffer from high-grade metamorphism – they enjoy it!”
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
On the outside looking in.
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GNEISS ONE!
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WBraun
climber
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So I went outside and got a rock and smashed it with the sledge hammer, I didn't hear any screams for mercy from that rock.
Are you sure the rock suffers?
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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what makes you think they'd scream? Does lettuce scream when you cut it up? it suffers all the same!
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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i'm suffering just reading this
if you want the lettuce to suffer, you need to sledgehammer it before it's been harvested. dead lettuce no longer suffers, everyone knows that.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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next thing you know we'll be talking about DRILLED POCKETS in LETTUCE! (which I'm against)
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WBraun
climber
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Hahahaha, yes pretty funny
But!
In India, Jagdish Chandra Bose first claimed to find evidence of consciousness in plants. Bose's work was falsified and rejected by mainstream biology in his own life-time.
It is still touted as India's contribution to world.
I have not ever heard this about rocks ..... having consciousness.
Anyways, onward to "drilled pockets". Do you think Mr. Piton will be angry with us for bringing these points up?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2006 - 10:23pm PT
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Not as long as you keep addressing me as MISTER Piton. Hehe.
Just back from the crimson gash and it was pretty hot today. After falling into a cactus I whacked it a few times but it kept quiet.
Making some cavatappi. I'll give it a go after dindin.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2006 - 11:43pm PT
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As I have stated before the Zion boulder was someone else's doing. I know who, but am sworn to secrecy. I hate rats. You should see what I let my monitor lizard do to them (I have video).
This person showed remarkable talent not only in climbing but motorcycling and some rodeo sports, but never pursued any seriously. I predicted to him even then that I'd get blamed, just like all the chicken bolts added to routes I put up. He is now fat with a serious substance abuse problem and probably hasn't touched rock the entire millenium.
But I owe him and he knows where the bodies are buried.
Besides, who am I explaining chiseling to?
A friend of Sheriff Lobo, someone who chisels herb?
I know that much is true, but as for these reports of spraying mace in the face of a guy in a wheelchair, these are just rumors. Still if true the lack of compassion, the lack of humanity is appalling. I've always found that when it comes to people confined in wheelchairs its easy to sneak up on them and club them over the head so that they don't feel anything.
Anyway Bob, you WERE putting words in my mouth. I never said drilling holds would have less impact than not drilling. Still you got close to an essential element of my rationale.
There are TWO creative aspects to climbing; performance and product.
Most climbers are performance oriented and the route is just an incidental medium. They make their statement by HOW they climb and the remains are secondary. For me the route IS the statement so where the drilled angles are and what alterations I make is the priority.
I'm not going to go into my Zion drilled pockets, Climb Against Nature, but rather wish to focus on a handful of routes in Snow Canyon State Park as well as discuss the variety of physical impacts climbers perpetrate.
You see I do think that the great threat of land managers closing the resources to climbers is NOT because of any kind of drilling or other chiseling. Its the far more mundane actions of ankle biting, drag buffing, anchor cleaning, leaving debris on walls, and impacting approaches that will (and indeed already DO) threaten to render rock climbing a quaint forbidden anachronism.
(time out for wine, I'll be back...)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2006 - 12:13am PT
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Ah yes. Much better.
Now where was I?
Oh yes......
There I was on the near vertical expanse, belaying myself to a tied off angle in a dusty hole and having to feed out enough slack to bust a move off the shifting hook I was hanging on as it slowly ground its way down on the crumbing sandstone flake it was perched upon.
Totally gripular!
Except today that same pitch is considered 5.8- and is the most popular in the park.
Comfortizing doesn't even begin to describe the astounding metamorphisis that led to the creation that, with apologies to George Bernard Shaw, was apropriately named Pygmy Alien.
So much rock was trimmed that the Chief Ranger Dave Emory voiced concern but I assured him that one good rain would wash off the dust and so it was.
In many cases the trimming served a conservative function since if climbers had tried to use flake edges it would have levered off larger chunks often with critically useful edges to boot.
Much more material was removed from that pitch than from all three drilled pocket routes 100m to the right, but NOBODY ever complained. It was the three pocketed routes that created the tempest in the teapot while Pygmy Alien became the milk run.
time out
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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Feb 10, 2006 - 01:23am PT
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Ok, so, we've got the straw man of nailing=chiseling, and the distraction of the Pygmy that needed trundling, but I'm not hearing much about Why Drilled Pockets Are Cool from ya.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2006 - 01:38am PT
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This was in the eighties and ground up vs rap was still a flashpoint. When I tried to put up a more difficult route just right of PA I ended up essentially putting in a bolt ladder until I resorted to rap bolting, which served as a de facto conservation measure on what became Roar of the Greasepaint.
In for a penny, in for a pound.
I started rap bolting what became the War Zone.
This area centers on the line of Black Massacre. Three pitches with the upper two and a half being almost all superb 5.9 face. By now I had a Bosch and had seen drilled pockets.
The start of the route if freeable (rumored but never done without manufactured holds in my presence) would have been an extended boulder problem many grades harder and likely the upper pitches would have been ignored though highly deserving of appreciation.
If there was a natural route then it was "intelligently designed" for ankle biting.
To access the upper bitchin free stuff I could have made a bolt ladder of perhaps 6 bolts but in light of the analogy I feel between aid bolts and fingers in pockets I opted for roughly the same number of the latter.
Not a whimsical call actually.
I applied myself to doing a truly artful job replete with tiny drain holes so that they wouldn't accumulate sand. I masked the holes and sprayed the interiors with flat black paint that matched the varnish so well that, before they were chalked, they were almost invisible.
Besides the pockets I also sculpted so that, although still harder than the rock above, the start acted as a screen at about 10d/.11a for short guys requiring sequential dynos.
Well the crap hit the fan.
Some claimed that I had "chipped" a natural free line but every time somebody attempted to demonstrate they used a sculpted hold. Once a guy even put his fingers at the mouth of one of the drilled pockets and when I objected he said that he "knew" there had been "something" there.
Now I'm NOT saying that it wouldn't go but that was a lame pretense! I have some video of George Bracksieck claiming that it looked doable only to fail repeatedly. If there was a natural line it was so hard that the climbing above would have inevitably been ignored.
Then came the vigilantes.
Nature was right. The rock suffers.
Or at least the beauty did.
signing off tonight, be back later this week
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 10, 2006 - 07:54am PT
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"There are TWO creative aspects to climbing; performance and product. Most climbers are performance oriented and the route is just an incidental medium. They make their statement by HOW they climb and the remains are secondary. For me the route IS the statement ... "
Hmmm, leaving aside the consequences of aid/nailing, from what I can tell we're talking about a) the quality of routes and b) what is required to establish them; and that conversation is somewhat complicated by the fact that Ron historically is found hanging out under a lot of comparatively dubious and fragile rocks. I believe the quote from Ron above gets at the heart of "a" and drives the methods employed in "b".
A clear part of the evolution of sport climbing in the 80's was to make explicit what had always been in the background and clearly spoken to by Harding in Downward Bound - an implicit human tendency to focus on the climbers as opposed to the climbs. It was always there, but sport climbing brought it out of the closet and pretty quickly led to comps once gyms were established to provide a venue for them. The late 80's represented an inital [glamrock] "coming out" party that magazines and the advent of "rock" videos turned into a veritable Lycra Debutantes Ball. One of the consequences of the move from LNT/trad to sport climbing was that climbers became even more tightly associated and identifiable with the routes they established. LNT to some extent gave way to LMS (Left My Signature) even if that signature was carved in the press, in guidebooks, or by reputation.
So what the hell was any self-respecting and testostrone-laden "trad", let alone aid, climber supposed to do in such morally challenging and ambiguous times? Adapt or die, baby! Or at the least suffer the possibility of languishing in an unacknowledged backwater of collective disinterest and irrevalence. Well "hell no and f#ck that" was a common response and folks simply did what must be done. And if routes were going to be representative of specific climbers and a "product", then it wasn't entirely unreasonable for climbers to start putting a little thought into their "brand" and even copyrighting unique, identifiable "trademarks" like drilled angles. The upshot of the times was the evolution of the concept of establishing routes as a "portfolio" or "legacy" [to the public] activity. This in turn begged the necessary concept of "community service" to whatever degree was required to insure the climbing public could actual get on and up one's legacy. And to be fair, all rock - but especially fragile rock - required a degree of thought, craft, and maintenance in light of the increased traffic being generated as gyms gained traction in suburban pop culture.
So for me the question is this: did it all get a bit out of hand at times? Sure it did. Hell, I once even tried to epoxy a 25lb crux block back on a roof lip when it came off on the first go after my FA. I was gonna be damned if "my legacy" and accomplishment was going to sink into the leaves of oblivion so soon after my FA (like twenty minutes afterwards). So, yeah drilled holes, chipping, sculpting, glueing, comfortizing, and even bolt-ons have variously been rationalized on the altar of a "quality product". When one decides a potential route just has a few minor accessibility problems, but would otherwise be a "high quality" addition to one's brand, portfolio, or community (depending on one's bent and outlook), well then, maybe some liberties are warranted. At least that is the thinking one confronts when you have both the eye and talent for such things. The dilemma comes in the execution and the degree of alteration required. Some eschew the dilemna altogether passing such climbs by; others take measures from subtle to bombastic to insure a route happens.
But we're all just human - even Ron - and as some of us get older, and take stock of our "legacy" with a more retrospective eye, most tend to develop an awareness and priority around preserving the precious commondity we metaphoriaclly, and occasionally physically, chiseled our legacy out of. And even a semi-unwitting "date rapist" can come to realize the impact of their behavior and thereafter be all the more prone to [harshly] call others on it. They understand it isn't in anyone's best interest no matter how good it seemed to feel at the time. While I don't engage in or condone such things, I'm not inclined to call Ron names, even for the glass house aspect of all this, not only because I can tell he's wiser now and his intentions are good, but also becase he owns so many big guns and I still want to visit the area. And, who knows, maybe I'll even see if I can talk him into giving me a tour of a drilled angle or two. I personally think they were a damn clever response to sizing up an ugly situation and taking stock of what one had at hand to deal with it.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Feb 10, 2006 - 12:00pm PT
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Ron, I applaud you for getting at the truth. What punched my button is that in the other thread you were so willing to call thom a rock rapist for saying that he was willing to pound a pin on a "clean route". Take the shield for example. It went clean what about 15 years ago or so? Does this imply that every other ascent since then that was not clean was done by rock rapists? I dont think so. I have not done that route; however, I do not think that every person who pounded a pin or rurp on that route since its clean ascent is a rock rapist.
I also do not agree or condone of your actions of drilling pockets in order to generate a nice three pitch route. Not every wall must be climbed.
I refrained from calling anyone names. I personally climbed a few of Ron's routes 20 years ago and enjoyed them quite a bit. He has put up many fine routes on the walls of Zion that many aspiring big wall climbers have learned on (myself included). I did not choose to climb black massacre because I found the pockets to be disgusting. I also believe that the addition and approval of routes such as this are an unacceptable direction of climbing, that is just my opinion. Thankfully, it is a rare occurrence and did not propagate itself possibly due to the disapproval of other climbers.
As healyje said, we each choose to deal with this issue in our own independant way. But when a route is forced by drilling pockets, it does rob future climbers out of challenges that they may have had.
PR said to thom,
"Too MUCH danger?
Do another route where you see less."
I would humbly suggest by paraphrasing,
too difficult? Dont drill pockets, leave it for someone who has the skill and climb something within your abilities...
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 10, 2006 - 12:16pm PT
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"The Secret Life of Rocks."
Hahahahaha, I like that ......
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burp
Trad climber
Salt Lake City
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Feb 10, 2006 - 12:25pm PT
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Piton Ron (no more mister for you) ...
Thanks for clearing the air on the ZNP boulder. I had heard it was you since before time. Sometimes such rumors are unfounded. Hope the question doesn't come your way again too often.
Now, doesn't it feel better to get everything out there! Sighhhh... ;)
Signed,
burp (a nobody who has viewed many a drilled pocket and wasn't sure whether I wanted to allow myself to pull on it or not)
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Feb 10, 2006 - 12:51pm PT
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So the deal here is that lines of drilled holds facillitating 'free' sections is an alternate to bolt ladders?
Is that it?
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 10, 2006 - 01:04pm PT
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Jaybro
You know I've actually thought of this also as a fantasty, but I didnt want or ever think about drilling pockets/holds instead of a bolt ladder.
I wanted to put bolt on holds instead of a bolt ladder to connect a blank unfree climbable section.
I never did it because I figured world war III would start. Bridwell floated the idea in a conversation once also.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Feb 10, 2006 - 01:08pm PT
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Jardine talked about that, too.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2006 - 03:14pm PT
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I intend to return to the story where time permits but at this point wanted to mention that Bridwell had seriously attempted to talk me into partnering him in putting up a .10c bolt-on-holds route up the right side of El Cap and claimed (probably correctly) that it would become the most popular route on the rock.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2006 - 03:17pm PT
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(Oh and Jaybro, you're still looking at it backwards. A bolt ladder IS nothing more than prosthetic free climbing up drilled pockets to begin with. Its the same hubris only by mechanical proxy.)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 10, 2006 - 03:26pm PT
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Isn't this what Jardine did on the nose traverse?
Adam Grosowsky bolted holds for a route at Smith which of course went over like turd in a punch bowl.
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
On the outside looking in.
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Feb 10, 2006 - 04:36pm PT
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Wow, interesting thread drift. Dishman Hills Recreation Area in Spokane, Washington has been the scene of a Nicholls-Level battle recently. Bolted on holds, bolted cracks, chopped bolts, rebolted, chipped edges, epoxied repairs, chopped bolts, rebolted....yadda yadda yadda.
And I take a fifteen minute walk back thru the woods and find untouched bolder problem after untouched bolder problem, while the "rope-people", as I like to call them, play their little destruction games out in plain view of the land managers.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 10, 2006 - 04:41pm PT
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Yep, Dishman was getting pretty damn ugly, good thing it finally calmed down.
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
On the outside looking in.
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Feb 10, 2006 - 04:54pm PT
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My suggestion that we use large quantities of explosives to render the entire area into a dedicated boldering field was not well received by the Access Fund mis-managers.
BTW, nice post up above. I was gonna post up some props but was too lazy/stoned/naked/insert favorite adjective here.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 10, 2006 - 05:00pm PT
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Blowboarder, thanks and I see we are of the same mind on Dishman. My suggestion that we ask that it be closed if the vandalism continued so as not to condone the behavior was similarly received.
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
On the outside looking in.
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Feb 10, 2006 - 05:14pm PT
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My only real problem with Dishman is that a few drainages back over from the Main Wall is this perfect 15-20 foot high, about a hundred foot long wall of really clean stone (obviously formed from water runoff while draining a big part of that hill that Dishman clefts into) with a big ass cave on one end.
Now, with the exception of all the garbage, crack pipes, diapers, half eaten chili, etc, etc...it was the best boldering I've found in Spokane (and I've looked, so much better than anything at Minny or the other areas I developed when I lived down there.) Clean, steep, edgy stone to a squarecut top and mantle.
BAM!!!!
Spent the afternoon cleaning and sending, cleaning and getting spanked, put in 5 quality lines out the cave, identified their harder bigger brothers, worked some tough linkups...basically right kicked my ass.
Went home, super stoked on the new area, planned a return trip the next day.
Show up in the morning to a homeless camp of probably 20 people living under that roof. Seems the Spokane Police make it habit to placate the local auto dealers by sweeping up the less fortunate and relocating them across town and dropping them off. They make their way back from wherever and resume their existance.
Under a sweetass roof adorned with climbable features: jugs, rails, incuts, V12 crimps, slopers... definately the most concentrated hard bouldering in Spokane County, like 5% developed.
Oh well, it keeps em dry.
I LOVE THREAD DRIFT!!!
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handsome B
Gym climber
Saskatoon, Saskatchawan
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Feb 10, 2006 - 05:35pm PT
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I read an interview with Jardine in a climbing mag a while back. He was disheartened by
his craftsmanship on The Nose. He said that he had no idea it would look so ugly in the
end. The future, he claimed, would be long, moderate free routes with lines of bolt-on
holds to connect the dots through blank sections. He envisioned an epoxy which could
be removed cleanly so that as climbing standards increased the amount of holds could
be decreased. Sounds like a few others have tried to float this idea as well.
There seems to be a parallel here with the ViaFerrata in Europe. The ViaFerrata(sic) was
designed to spread out the masses of people in the mountains and lessen impact on
the resources. Ron seems to be saying the same sort of thing; get the hard work out
of the way early and we can enjoy a well-managed resource for longer.
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mike hartley
climber
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Feb 10, 2006 - 05:42pm PT
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This debate reminds me of a group of prostitutes where one is loudly proclaiming that she’s not cheap. “I won’t do a trick for less than $500.00”; all the while forgetting that it still doesn’t change the fact that she’s a whore. Aid climbers are whores. It’s not like we’re up there with strip-miners but from an environmental standpoint we can only feel smug around high altitude expedition types. Ron’s “logic” exposes that our rules and arguments are twisted. Hardmen decry adding chicken-bolts yet proudly proclaim that you’d have to be stupid to risk breaking your back to do a pitch clean when a good pin will make it safe(er). Freeclimbing pin scars is fine but chipping is somehow different. Bolts and bathooks are OK but a drilled pocket is not. Etc, etc. We’re frigging nuts! Ron just forgets that he’s no more superior than the $500.00 hooker. “Leave no trace” Jim Erikson types can feel smug but the rest of us are just pigs in a pen making up weirdo rules so we can feel special. Few of us are willing to say that “I’ll either leave it unaltered or I won’t do it at all”. I know not, but then again I’m a whore.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 10, 2006 - 05:49pm PT
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Hey, get da f#ck offa my corner byatch...! Yo blowin' my special and I's gonna chisel yo eye out.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Feb 10, 2006 - 07:40pm PT
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"A bolt ladder IS nothing more than prosthetic free climbing up drilled pockets to begin with. Its the same hubris only by mechanical proxy."
Although you have a point, I don't know that I really buy it. Among other things, a line of drilled pockets or bolt-ons is going to mean a lot more drilled holes than a bolt ladder.
Imagine the uproar when there is a helicopter rescue due to a spinner? yee-ha
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 10, 2006 - 07:43pm PT
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Well if you need 3 bolts to get across a blank section, and instead place 3 bolt on handholds what's the difference?
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
On the outside looking in.
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Feb 10, 2006 - 07:46pm PT
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If the bolt on holds were giant prosthetic penis's, well, that would be different. Might keep down traffic on the trade routes. Or increase it?
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 10, 2006 - 07:49pm PT
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Bolt on penis's?
You're outa line Blow, go to your room and sit in the corner and seriously think about this.
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
On the outside looking in.
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Feb 10, 2006 - 07:52pm PT
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Giant penis's Werner, like independant free hanging tufa systems. Harcore mantles, lots of double underclings....
Is this any more ridiculous than drilling holes in rock for the sole purpose of upward passage and the chance to spray about it online later?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 10, 2006 - 07:57pm PT
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There is I suppose also the question of what role scale plays in such decisions. Is it one thing to say just walk past a three pitch route that needs six bolts/holds, but a different story when it's something like the Nose that just happens to need six bolts/holds? Some places only have 3/4 pitch climbing, so are they immediately out of luck?
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Feb 10, 2006 - 08:17pm PT
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Yeah, that's what I meant he had a point, Werner. On the long term I still think it would mean more holes, unless they were really big holds ... which takes us back to Blow's idea. You could sling 'em for pro! And think of the route names! nothing as mundane an as 'The Nose! The Tourniquet, rated X, maybe.
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hobo
climber
PDX
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Feb 10, 2006 - 08:19pm PT
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Imagine the leaning tower with a line of plastic holds rather than bolts. Hole-ey scary man.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 10, 2006 - 08:36pm PT
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Isn't the first pitch of WFLT due for a retro? Penises or vaginas? That's what you call a real dilemma. The monkey in me wants to grip and swing my way up, the human wants to dig deep and thrust my way up. Oh, the humanity...!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2006 - 08:54am PT
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Thread drift is RIGHT!
Somehow I never thought I would go from the routes in Snow Canyon to having an image of healyje hanging from a giant penis seared into my brain.
I had failed to fully register the freudian implications of pockets and bolt-ons, but now realize that all I was doing was creating sandstone supertacos!
ahem,..(back to our story)
Then came the vigilantes.
Nature was right. The rock suffers.
Or at least the beauty did.
Seeing the area now is painful. Although the rock dam that was built has now successfully trapped sand to create a softer landing at the start everything above it is grafittied and scarred. The prime instigator was a climber called the Tiny One who had gotten so excited upon inspection of Black Massacre that he had ejaculated some kind of goo from a tube (don't get ahead of me here) he bought at the hardware store. I think it was silicone glue.
He didn't just goop up the artificial holds he simply coated the entire route and in his attempt to extract the first drilled angle he chiseled it out leaving a pocket far more conspicuous and ugly than anything there before.
He didn't act out of reverence for the rock. This was pure ego.
This same person had, nearby, placed 6 bolts next to a 75' .10b finger/hand crack and then had the temerity to suggest that I had somehow given him the go-ahead by saying that there wasn't as much to climb in that part of the canyon.
At the bottom of Pygmy Alien there is an upward oriented drilled angle that is next to useless for belay (but idiots still trust it anyway) because the Tiny One attempted to excavate it too.
Its all so absurd. Destroying in the name of preservation!
Why can't the critics simply upstage those they criticize with their performance on the rock actually climbing?
Its so much easier to build oneself up by simply tearing others down rather than lead by example.
The thing that gets me most of all is this;
We are blessed, TRULY blessed with an incredible abundance of great rocks here. While its not infinite it IS next to that.
So you would think that there might be room enough to engage in a variety of climbing types, but isn't there always a brat who, in the middle of a room piled with toys, wants the one the other kid is playing with.
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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Feb 12, 2006 - 11:25am PT
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The simple fact is that chipping chiselling and pocket-drilling represent a bad road to start down. The restraint exercised by some will be ignored by others in the future, and pretty soon everything will have been dumbed down to somebody's level. Best to leave those pin-job experiments as monuments to an idea since abandoned.
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| Messages 1 - 80 of total 80 in this topic |
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