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Phil Olinick
Boulder climber
There
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May 30, 2011 - 04:39am PT
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You're up late. Surely not to derail the thread from May 29, 2011 - 02:00am PT?
Your post appeared within 15 minutes of when I made this post, and the edits. Something is wrong.
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steveA
Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
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May 30, 2011 - 06:15am PT
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Phil,
I'm posting this with a smile on my face. I wasn't focusing on you when I wrote that last post. I was making a general response to complaints I've heard from climbers on this forum who complain that it is harder to learn to lead trad today because nobody will teach them how to place gear.
In my opinion, it ought to be easier than 40 years ago, since their are plenty of books out there on the subject. All I had when I started climbing was "Freedom of the Hills" which was inspirational but lacking on really technical instruction.
To answer your question: No, I'm not employed but gratefully retired, and still climb, ( going out today), I was a vocational teacher all my life.
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Phil Olinick
Boulder climber
There
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May 30, 2011 - 12:01pm PT
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Nice picture, Ron.
ruppell's post just before my last post was time stamped about 10:30pm. Now it's time stamped 12:56am. There were also posts added in the middle of your California night.
This is why I wrote in my last post: //-You're up late. Surely not to derail the thread from May 29, 2011 - 02:00am PT?
Your post appeared within 15 minutes of when I made this post, and the edits. Something is wrong.//
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Phil Olinick
Boulder climber
There
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May 30, 2011 - 12:05pm PT
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There's that time stamp problem again. My last post should have appeared between your two photos. You wouldn't be using those photos to distract attention from my May 29, 2011 - 02:00am PT post in this thread?
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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May 30, 2011 - 12:07pm PT
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Quality gore.
You guys must be really haired by the new harness buckles.
No doubling back??????
No f*#king way.
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cliffhanger2040
Sport climber
Charlotte, NC
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May 30, 2011 - 05:20pm PT
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BillL you got it right. I was belaying from my harness (with an atc) with the rope going from me through the anchors, through the belay device and they up to the climber. When he fell, each piece of gear pulled as he weighted it and he did bounce and their was plenty of air time. He fell below me and therefore my downward pull on the brake end of the rope was no longer doing its job. It took me dropping to the ledge where the rope once again had an upward direction from the atc over a flake on the outer edge of the ledge. There was a lot of rope passing through the belay device because of the suden change in direction of the pull of the rope.
I also agree with everyone's thoughts about inexperienced climbers. If you read magazines, there are a lot of strong sport climbers that are jumping right into leading extemely hard trad routes. So of course, I should be able to climb a 5.7 right? Lesson learned.
Also, how did this thread become an argument about gear? Isn't there a forum for that?
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BillL
Trad climber
NM
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May 30, 2011 - 05:32pm PT
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Thanks for detailing that, Steve.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 30, 2011 - 05:42pm PT
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BITGOD, many learned a lot about placing gear by doing aid climbs. Not necessarily difficult aid climbs, just routes on which we placed a lot of gear, and had to rely on it. Plus the logistics, plus stuff like rope drag and gear management. It was slow and tedious, and probably the only way to really learn. There were a few books to read about it, and more experienced climbers to apprentice for when possible. As with the proverbial "10,000 hours of experience to become an expert", it takes time to gain experience, for which there's no substitute. Even with improvements in gear, knowledge, and training, that's still the case.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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May 30, 2011 - 05:56pm PT
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Gear pulled? Did it not state upthread that there was no gear on the rope? How did Petch get the gear if it pulled out of the rock? Or, was that just the anchor gear?
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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May 30, 2011 - 08:29pm PT
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Hey cliffhanger2040, I'm just surprised it hasn't turned into a thread about Palin at this point. At least it's still climbing related. :)
How are your burns? They hurt like a mofo, no? Hope they are better.
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Tahoe climber
climber
Davis these days
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May 30, 2011 - 09:16pm PT
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hi cliffhanger,
Thanks for posting up and letting us know what happened. I thought it took a ton of courage for Kush to write the trip report, and for you to chime in.
Really glad you guys are both okay.
TC
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BillL
Trad climber
NM
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May 30, 2011 - 11:47pm PT
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... more like being in a bar with friends (mostly).
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Phil Olinick
Boulder climber
There
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May 31, 2011 - 12:50am PT
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how did this thread become an argument about gear? Isn't there a forum for that?
To derail the thread from May 29, 2011 - 02:00am PT
Where I wrote:
**First, I want to thank those of you who made such outrageously erroneous statements regarding climbing safety, sometimes in response to my impatient, aggressive posts (which embarrass me, but so be it).
There have been some false statements about climbing safety made in this thread, and elsewhere. This kind of disinformation has contributed to if not caused climbing accidents. Human life has been lost. People have been seriously injured. Medical and other bills have been incurred. Taxpayer money has been spent on federal and local rescue efforts, which could have been avoided.
If they do not investigate the origins of the disinformation about climbing safety, law enforcement agencies and prosecutors would be doing taxpayers an injustice, and indirectly contributing to the continued loss of life and injuries among climbers.
I recommend that the appropriate law enforcement agencies contact Yosemite Search and Rescue (YOSAR) and request a representative list of erroneous statements about climbing safety, which could be published on this website and used as a basis for criminal and civil investigations.
If anyone making these false statements has a conflict of interest due to personal profit (e.g., paid bloggers) then that too should be investigated.
There are so many things today now damaged by intentional disinformation. The affront to climbing is of particular interest, because knowledgable climbers can link the facts to the dead bodies. A known minority of climbers today understand those facts, and we can prove that many deaths and injuries should have been avoided. It's a good fight. Let's take it!
-Phil Olinick www.kornetzky.ch/GodNoSaySo phil@kornetzky.ch**
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Phil Olinick
Boulder climber
There
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May 31, 2011 - 02:30am PT
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Ah, climbing at its best.
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Phil Olinick
Boulder climber
There
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May 31, 2011 - 02:57am PT
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Yes, the thread drift is an intentional derailment from Phil Olinick's post, to steer the conversation away and bury the idea of nefarious intent.
I'm an industry insider, working for the primary misinformationist manufacturer to obscure their activity. May 30, 2011 - 09:59pm PT
May 30, 2011 - 11:30pm PT
Ah, climbing at its best.
Not that anyone would change the time stamps again, or add pictures....
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Petch
Gym climber
knapsack crack
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May 31, 2011 - 10:56am PT
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Again, Kush and Steve, I'm glad you guys are alright. Kush thanks for the beer!
The gear we found was all on Bushy ledge, must of it under six inches of snow. There were some pieces left in the anchor, but none on the pitch.
We searched the base a little, but there was alot of snow.
There is no reason for pulling so many pieces when you are a leader on a pitch with bomber gear. With the low angle, and right leaning nature of that pitch, long slings should be used. Your first piece should also be a multi-directional so not to created a "zipper". As I tell all my clients, take it slow, learn to do it right, work through the grades, don't concentrate just on high ratings, and you will climb until you are old and crusty. The climbers who rush into leading either get scared or hurt.
At least these guys have a chance to "live and learn"!
As for helmets at the Leap. Loose rock is the least of your worries(unless you are on one of my routes)! I have seen just about everything dropped from the wall. Hiking boots, full water bottles, backpacks, full racks, every type of climbing gear, walkie talkies, and of course, climbers. I put on my helmet right before I walk up to the cliff.
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Phil Olinick
Boulder climber
There
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May 31, 2011 - 12:43pm PT
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@Ron Anderson: You know the issue that's getting buried here: The basic information which new climbers need to climb safely and casually is getting distorted and hidden. As a result people are getting injured and killed. That is what should be litigated, in criminal and in civil courts.
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Degaine
climber
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May 31, 2011 - 01:24pm PT
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First,
Glad the involved individuals are ok. Thanks for sharing your experience.
Phil Olinick wrote:
@Ron Anderson: You know the issue that's getting buried here: The basic information which new climbers need to climb safely and casually is getting distorted and hidden. As a result people are getting injured and killed. That is what should be litigated, in criminal and in civil courts.
Honest question, do you have any stats that demonstrate more people now (especially new climbers) as a percentage of overall climbers are getting hurt than, say, 30 years ago?
If you take the example of backcountry skiing, the Internet has made avalanche accidents / deaths much more high profile, but as far as I know the average number (absolute) of deaths per season has remained the same for some time (at least in the Alps) even though the number of people heading into the backcountry has significantly increased, thus the percentage of avy deaths per skiers / skier days has dropped significantly.
Might it not be the same for climbing?
Regarding cliffhanger2040 burned hands, rgold has been posting for years that one should wear gloves while belaying, especially in anticipation of having to hold a factor 2 fall. Proof positive that he was / is absolutely right.
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Phil Olinick
Boulder climber
There
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May 31, 2011 - 02:45pm PT
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May 29, 2011 - 02:00am PT
**First, I want to thank those of you who made such outrageously erroneous statements regarding climbing safety, sometimes in response to my impatient, aggressive posts (which embarrass me, but so be it).
There have been some false statements about climbing safety made in this thread, and elsewhere. This kind of disinformation has contributed to if not caused climbing accidents. Human life has been lost. People have been seriously injured. Medical and other bills have been incurred. Taxpayer money has been spent on federal and local rescue efforts, which could have been avoided.
If they do not investigate the origins of the disinformation about climbing safety, law enforcement agencies and prosecutors would be doing taxpayers an injustice, and indirectly contributing to the continued loss of life and injuries among climbers.
**
I recommend that the appropriate law enforcement agencies contact Yosemite Search and Rescue (YOSAR) and request a representative list of erroneous statements about climbing safety, which could be published on this website and used as a basis for criminal and civil investigations. **
If anyone making these false statements has a conflict of interest due to personal profit (e.g., paid bloggers) then that too should be investigated.
There are so many things today now damaged by intentional disinformation. The affront to climbing is of particular interest, because knowledgable climbers can link the facts to the dead bodies. A known minority of climbers today understand those facts, and we can prove that many deaths and injuries should have been avoided. It's a good fight. Let's take it!
-Phil Olinick www.kornetzky.ch/GodNoSaySo phil@kornetzky.ch
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utahman912
Social climber
SLC, UT
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May 31, 2011 - 05:03pm PT
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^
well, hell... that chouinard ought to last a long time... looks like it cost $35
:-)
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