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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 15, 2011 - 01:12pm PT
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I'm in the early planning stages of a trip (again!) to the Valley sometime later in the year; not sure when. I've always enjoyed several of the fine routes on the Grack (Center, and Marginal) and on Monday Morning Slab (i.e. Harry Daley, Chouinard Crack, etc.), and would really like to have a shot at Mister Natural and the Apron Jam.
A non-local sometimes doesn't have sufficient information whether to simply avoid the entire GP Apron, of if there are selective "safe zones."
Any advice from the Super Topo peanut gallery?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 15, 2011 - 01:54pm PT
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the entire Valley is falling down... some rather impressive slabs have fallen of recently with no one around to see it happen, though in climbing areas where routes have been erased and in view from major tourista turnouts...
you roll the dice... and lucky for you you usually win...
a couple of years ago I was over climbing Apron Jam... on the way to Mr. Natural where a party doing the same a while back met with tragedy.
Climbed all the routes you've mentioned over the years many times since the rock fall...
Point is your number could be up whenever you touch any of those cliffs... danger overstated? probably not, but it is not confined to just the Apron...
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Apr 15, 2011 - 02:23pm PT
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Ed speaks truth, as usual. I would only add that both the Grack and the Monday Morning Slab areas or on minor ridges that tend to deflect small rockfall to either side. Not true for Apron Jam or Mr. Natural, which also have some obviously loose sections high above. Other than that, you take your chances whenever you climb. While the objective danger is not trivial, neither is it close to what exists on so many serious Alpine routes.
John
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 15, 2011 - 02:29pm PT
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Mr. Natural area probably has more likely rockfall, followed by the Grack, with everything inbetween being safer.
I'd climb in all those places although springtime is more dangerous as freeze thaw cycles are active and water is flowing through cracks and stuff
Peace
Karl
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
Oakland
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Apr 15, 2011 - 02:40pm PT
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A friend of mine claims to have had a rockfall experience on the Apron this spring and has stated he is not going back. He's kind of a beginner so maybe he's blown it out of proportion, but his story sounded pretty damn' scary. I believe he was on the Grack.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 15, 2011 - 02:47pm PT
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[attempt at levity, answer to a mysterious question, slight offtopic twist]
Why do we climbers describe the size of rockfall in terms of kitchen appliances?
"microwave size block"
"refrigerator size..."
etc...
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 15, 2011 - 02:51pm PT
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> Did you see the latest comment on the beta page?
They didn't state where the rockfall occurred, relative to their location on the Grack. I haven't seen any impact marks on the Grack routes.
There is increased rockfall hazard to the left of the Cow/Grack (where there is a big blast zone), for pretty much anything left of Tightrope.
There is also a hazard on Hall of Mirrors - there is fresh talus at the base from a rockfall in early 2009. It is a natural drainage path.
I would feel fine doing the Grack anytime in settled weather.
I wouldn't climb on the higher risk areas if there is any snow on the rim.
The other bad zone is right of Green Dragon.
I wouldn't climb The Punch Bowl until the talus on the ledge above it clears out; will take many years.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Apr 15, 2011 - 04:37pm PT
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Go climb the North Face of the Grand Teton and then come back and see if these questions are still worrying you about the Apron. Not to mention the North Faces of Edith Cavell or the Eiger...
Come to think of it, the biggest rock fall I've ever experienced came down all around us while sitting on top of Dolt Tower on the Nose.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 15, 2011 - 05:25pm PT
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Well, the lower East face of Long's Peak isn't any slouch either. I recall some big stuff coming down while I was on Stettner's Ledges.
This was a general topic question, since not too many Tacos seem to climb on the Apron anymore... Cragman had some comments at Flandersfest, thet the Grack in in a safer zone than most of the Apron.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 15, 2011 - 05:28pm PT
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people that climb there don't think it is any different then anywhere else, I think... and people who don't climb there don't
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 15, 2011 - 06:26pm PT
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Jim,
>> springtime is more dangerous as freeze thaw cycles are active and water is flowing through cracks and stuff - Karl Baba
> I've heard this many times and it seems to make sense. But is it true?
You can download the spreadsheet (1857-2003) and test it statistically if you want:
http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2003/of03-491/of03-491.xls
and the report:
http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2003/of03-491/of03-491.pdf
Just looking, there are definitely a lot in the spring. Also winter.
I could do the stat test and make some graphs, if somebody is interested.
P.S. Have fun in the Valley this weekend.
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gstock
climber
Yosemite Valley
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Apr 15, 2011 - 06:50pm PT
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Here are a few relevant graphics. The first is a map that shows rock falls in Yosemite Valley (1857-early 2011) for which a relatively precise location and season of occurrance are known.
The second image shows rock falls (as a percentage of the total 1857-2007) as a function of precipitation and temperature in Yosemite Valley. This plot excludes rock falls triggered by earthquakes.
You can see that March and April are generally the peak months for the number of rock falls. However, this plot does not include volume data, and there are some very large rock falls that occur in the summer.
Greg
Greg Stock
Park Geologist
Yosemite National Park
(209) 379-1420
greg_stock@nps.gov
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Apr 15, 2011 - 06:56pm PT
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I was with some elder statesmen on Coonyard last September. As you might know, this takes off from the top of Monday Morning. This was the FIRST TIME EVER that I wore a helmet in the Valley.
While we experienced no rockfall I will say (since I was doing the leading) that Coonyard's typical slip-slide greasiness was multiplied by a fine layer of dust on every edge and over the entire slab. Now, keeping in mind that each winter the Apron gets plastered with snow and ice, this dust is probably there simply because the Apron has fallen out of favor and there was no one ahead of us in X amount of time to dust things off, but all the same it made me wonder if this was the best place to be.
I, too, convinced myself that the natural ridge-like nature above Monday Morning meant I was in safer territory but in reality I have to imagine that when bowling balls start tumbling down from above they go wherever they want; ridge or no ridge.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 15, 2011 - 06:58pm PT
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Thanks, Greg - nice graphics!
To me, they suggest that rockfall (in terms of number of occurrences) is spread out fairly uniformly across the year.
So the freeze/thaw/wet is not that dominant; things can also move by thermal expansion / contraction in sunny times.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 15, 2011 - 07:00pm PT
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I don't care what graphs exist nor what anyone says. But that's just me.
I never go to the apron area unless there's a body to retrieve and those bodies are not pretty.
That whole place over there gives me the willys as I witnessed too much of all that stuff coming down.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 15, 2011 - 07:13pm PT
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I'm not sure that I'll be doing anything at the Apron this fall, after these comments. I never have liked rockfall, but have seen plenty of it.
So...as the bottom line, there really isn't any "safe zone" there.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Apr 15, 2011 - 07:17pm PT
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jeremy- are those photos of you spilling a tall boy?
at least sandstone you can live through being hit with a 2 ton block. Granite will grind you into cheese...
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Apr 15, 2011 - 07:23pm PT
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I didn't have too many issues on the Apron (except water activated)
I had a pretty horrendous experience at the base of El Cap (La Esquela sp?)
I finally realized why no plants grow at the base. We left all the gear and tried to hide under the scruffy little oaks. I watched as the one next to me (the same size as the one I tunneled under) was obliterated.
I ran for my life to largest pine I could find after about 15 min of continous bombardment. I watched a front door sized flake about a foot thick "flutter" like a dropped piece of paper out over the valley, then back toward the face. It did this 2-3 times making sound affects like the helicopters in Apocolypse Now. When it finally reached the trees the sound of destruction was mind blowing.
The Germans that were climbing next to us said they were going back to camp to get their helmets. I laughed hysterically and told them that all that would be left was a helmet with a pair of Fires sticking out of the bottom.
After that I went to the Meadows for the next 4 years until my stones grew back. I just had to dodge lightning up there.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 15, 2011 - 07:26pm PT
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Now ain't that the truth ^^^^
Seeing rocks come down on top of you will surely cause the most seasoned hard man to piss in his pants .....
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Apr 15, 2011 - 07:28pm PT
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Funny, one of the only places I have NOT been in rockfall is the GPA.
My partner did find a ASCA bolt head, sheared off at the base of something to the right of grack.
Washington Column is by far the worst wall in the park. I have been in 4 (Big enuff to make you think YER GONNA DIE!)rockfalls on both sides of the column.
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wildone
climber
Troy, MT
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Apr 15, 2011 - 07:30pm PT
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I have never been more scared than when my partner and I were bombarded with massive amounts of ice and rock from about 1000 feet above us on the east butress of Whitney. Luckily, we lived. I can still remember the sound.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 15, 2011 - 07:45pm PT
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I have to say, I've seen a lot more rockfall on Middle Cathedral, and even El Cap than the apron
Any giant cliff has rocks coming off of it. Yosemite is better than any alpine climbing environment for rockfall though, so it's all relative
Peace
Karl
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gstock
climber
Yosemite Valley
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Apr 15, 2011 - 08:07pm PT
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An important caveat to the notion of precipitation as the most common rock fall trigger in Yosemite is that this is true only when compared to other recognized triggers. More than half of all of the rock falls in the database (now current through 2010, and soon to be available as a USGS Open-file Report) do not have recognized triggers. This means that a reliable connection could not be made between a rock fall and an environmental condition such as seismicity, precipitation, freeze-thaw, etc., even in cases where the rock fall was closely observed. Because rock fall detachment surfaces are rarely instrumented when failures occur, in most cases assigning a rock fall trigger is not an exact science.
Many unrecognized triggers are associated with summertime rock falls, where we suspect the effects of thermal stress (heat) may play a role. So it could actually be that thermal stress is at least as important as precipitation in triggering rock falls in Yosemite.
It's also important to remember that people tend to more influenced by events that they witness or are directly involved in, as opposed to events they only read or hear about. The recent rock falls at Glacier Point are surely part of our collective conscience as a community, but the fact is that rock falls occur virtually everywhere in Yosemite Valley. Our measurement of talus volumes suggest that long-term (post-glacial) rock fall rates are actually greater at El Cap, the Cathedrals, and Middle Brother than they are at Glacier Point or Royal Arches.
Ultimately I tend to agree with Ed's sentiments expressed above.
Greg
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gstock
climber
Yosemite Valley
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Apr 15, 2011 - 08:46pm PT
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That is really difficult to determine. Reporting of rock falls has generally been good (not perfect) since about 1980, but even that is a short time period with respect to geologic processes. We have compared historic rock falls rates with the longer-term rates from talus, and they generally match up, but there are large discrepancies in areas like Middle Brother, where a 600,000 cubic meter (1.8 million ton) rock fall occurred in March 1987, skewing meaningful comparisons over such disparate time periods.
We are in the process of dating a number of the large boulders on the floor of the valley (like Columbia and LeConte boulders) and this should give us a better sense of rock-fall activity that occurred before than the historical record but on shorter timescale than overall post-glacial talus accumulation.
Greg
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Apr 16, 2011 - 12:03am PT
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I don't remember any concern about rockfall in the 1960's.
Were we just naive or was it a golden age in that respect as well?
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Captain...or Skully
climber
My ready room
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Apr 16, 2011 - 12:10am PT
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You were gonna die, you just didn't know it.
Or some such.
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xtrmecat
Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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Apr 16, 2011 - 12:15am PT
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Like it has been stated prior, it is relative. Last May I had way more rock fall on elcap than the apron. This Jan. Had more on elcap than then. These climbing days were relatively safer than almost every other outings I had this year, most of which were Canadian alpine, or alpine in nature. The valley shedding stones seems very benign to some of us used to other stuff also. Wear a helmet for sure.
Burly Bob
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 16, 2011 - 12:34am PT
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Maybe slight off topic:
Helmets are fine, but they do not increase your survival chances by much if it's a big rockfall.
Better to simply avoid those higher risk areas, if you can identify them and don't mind choosing another climb.
Helmets may be helpful if you take a leader fall and hit your head.
But they may also increase the chances that you will feel willing to risk such a fall.
They are fairly good for protecting against gear dropped by someone above you, but such stuff can still hit you in the face/nose....
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Apr 16, 2011 - 12:46am PT
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Exfoliation is a bitch.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Apr 16, 2011 - 01:15am PT
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i've never seen a graph about the rock fall surrounding the Yosemite Valley.
quite impressive!
i'll show my friends.
thanks Greg.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Apr 16, 2011 - 02:22am PT
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the best protection is always listening to hear it coming and have your head somewhere other than the arriving rocks
hats and helmets distort sound
i've noticed helmets tend to have dents in them
i have no dents in my head and haven't experienced a time when a helmet would have helped
Edit: several routes that i've climbed have fallen down and no longer exist; including El Cap Tree Direct, North Face of Lower Cathedral Rock, and the Gendarme at Seneca
i've twice dodged major rockfall on the Grand Teton; once on El Cap, once on Lower Cathedral Rock North Face, once on Rixon's, and others in the mountains...with innumerable smaller stuff
never saw rock fall on GPA, which is one of my favorite areas of Yosemite
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2011 - 09:54am PT
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Jan-
When we were there in 1965, I do recall some rockfall over near Koko Ledge. Much of it was initiated by Air Force jets "buzzing" the Valley.
Maybe this is one of the reasons that I've been doing smaller cragging over the intervening years? Vedauwoo, City of Rocks, and Joshua Tree.
P.S. (added in edit): Eldorado has some rockfall too, but is mostly initiated by climbers knocking stuff off ledges.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Apr 23, 2012 - 12:13am PT
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I never go to the Apron area unless there's a body to retrieve
-Werner Braun
Zo, ze voice of visdom zpeakz to uz in ze gize of ze voice of eggsperience.
LISTEN UP!
Wer-nerds to hear words like this
They shouldn't stand around and piss.
Instead do this:
Run away! Run away!
ALL KNIGHTS: (taking up the cry) Run away! Run away!
-contributed by Ed Cartoony (Spanky and the gang at the Cookie)
"that's all, folks?" you are Looney Tunes
Be a chicken, be a rabbit,
Mice run away, force of habit.
The racket and tumult of rockfall is grand. I have been lucky to see just the one from Elly Rock in Dec. 1970. This is the one Millis always talked about, and it happened in mid-morning. The next one in that location was in March 1971 and happened in the middle of the night. I checked the history and those are the dates. The second event was three times the volume of the one Millis and I witnessed. We were climbing Stigma in 1970.
Millis was on A3 placements, poor sod lived to tell of it, thankyewJC. In the even greater rockfall we were bivvied on the Leaning Tower. It woke me and I woke Millis. We just knew what it was without thinking much about it, but when we found out where, we cringed. If you ever get to see such a magnificent display of Nature consider yourself lucky.
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