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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 4, 2011 - 06:00pm PT
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In Brief Feb.2011
USDA Forest Service · Pacific Southwest Region
Williamson Rock & the Mt. Yellow-legged Frog
Background
The Southern California mountain yellow-legged frog (MYLF), a distinct population segment of the MYLF species, was listed in 2002 by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) as endangered under the Endangered Species Act of 1973. Small, localized populations currently exist within the Angeles and San Bernardino national forests, in the San Gabriel, San Bernardino, and San Jacinto mountains. These populations are vulnerable to various potential and existing threats, including: spread of non-native fish and amphibians; loss of breeding pools from siltation or declining surface water; disease, and; disturbance of individuals and egg masses from recreation and land use activities in key breeding locations. The mountain yellow-legged frog is at high risk of extinction.
Williamson Rock on the Angeles National Forest (ANF) is regarded as one of the unique rock climbing resources in Southern California with over 300 mapped climbing routes spanning all ranges of difficulty, and relatively easy access from public roads. In the absence of developed access hiking routes to the rock from Angeles Crest Highway, the public has historically utilized a series of intertwining user-created trails, which has led to unregulated recreation in the adjacent upper Little Rock Creek.
Critical Habitat Designation (FWS)
The FWS deferred proposing designated critical habitat when the MYLF was listed in 2002, and was sued in 2004 by the Center for Biological Diversity for failure to designate MYLF critical habitat. Under court order, the FWS issued a final rule in September, 2006, that included designation of approximately 8,283 acres within the Angeles and San Bernardino national forests as critical habitat.
Protection of MYLF in Cooper Canyon, Little Rock Creek (FS)
By law, the Forest Service is required to manage National Forest System (NFS) lands so that viable populations of existing native plant and animal species are maintained. To protect known populations of the MYLF in the segment of Little Rock Creek running through Cooper Canyon on the ANF, the Agency is evaluating ongoing activities that may affect the frog and its habitat.
NEPA Analysis
Coinciding with the FWS’s proposed Critical Habitat designation, on December 29, 2005, the ANF Forest Supervisor issued a temporary closure order of approximately 1,000 acres within the upper reaches of Little Rock Creek, an area including Williamson Rock. The original closure was intended to be temporary, but has been renewed as the ANF has gone through the NEPA process to analyze measures for area management. Complicating the analysis, the Williamson Rock area was also found to be home to peregrine falcons and Forest Service-listed sensitive plant species. In addition, most of the Forest Service project files were burned along with the Santa Clara-Mojave Rivers Ranger District Office in the 2007 Buckweed Fire. The project files needed to be re-created and reassembled to continue the NEPA process.
The Interdisciplinary team, reorganized in late 2008, developed a new analysis for the resolution of the area closure. The resulting proposed action included development of facilities along Angeles Crest Highway, designation and development of a single access trail to Williamson Rock, designation and development of a primary staging area in order to manage recreational use at Williamson Rock, closure of areas on both permanent and seasonal bases, as necessary, to protect the habitat and reproductive success of species; management of recreational use to protect the primitive solitude of climbing and the quality of the visitor experience, as well as perpetuate resource protection in the Williamson Rock vicinity; and Strategic management to restore habitat and implement recovery actions for TES populations.
Current Situation
2009 Station Fire
As the process was undergoing analysis in late 2009, the 160,000-acre Station Fire burned through the San Gabriel Mountains. The short-term and long-term effects of the fire represent a change in environmental circumstances for analysis; hence the ANF has had to re-assess the conditions surrounding the closure at Williamson Rock.
Analysis tied to the Station Fire indicates that one or more of the ANF units of the MYLF (outside of Williamson Rock vicinity) have been severely impacted – both from direct burning effects and anticipated post-fire sedimentation effects to the ecosystem. The population in the Williamson Rock area is currently considered to be the most viable MYLF population on the Forest. Unfortunately, all of the remaining units of the Southern California MYLF DPS have been confirmed positive for presence of chytrid fungus, elevating the level of concern for the species.
As a result of the analysis of changed circumstances post-Station Fire, the following measures are being proposed:
1. Temporary closure of the Williamson Rock area to protect the habitat and reproductive success of species during natural burn area recovery.
§ A three-year closure for the Williamson Rock area in order to monitor the critical habitat of the Upper Little Rock Creek MYLF population while the nearby 2009 Station Fire burn area naturally recovers. A renewed assessment of the species, based upon interim survey data, should determine whether there has been sufficient progress at the end of three years to consider reopening the area.
§ All pullouts and potential access points from along CA-2 would be posted with closure signage, and physically modified to prevent unrestricted access to the upper Little Rock Creek vicinity.
§ All Williamson Rock ‘user-created’ braided trails and paths along scree slopes, which have historically provided direct access into MYLF habitat, would be subject to continued closure and (where warranted) limited rehabilitation at their outlets.
§ All measures would be subject to compliance monitoring; as feedback dictates, additional measures may be determined necessary. If response has been insufficient at the end of three years, future decisions may include renewal of the closure, or assessment of a more permanent solution in order to protect the critical biological habitat.
2. Strategic management to restore habitat and implement recovery actions for TES populations.
§ In 2002, the ANF participated in the development of the Conservation Assessment and Strategy for management and recovery of the MYLF. The Forest is committed to utilizing that document in management of the Williamson Rock area.
§ As funding permits, ongoing tri-annual surveys by the USGS of the MYLF populations in the ANF and annual supplemental condition surveys would be conducted for all sensitive botanical and biological species within the area by Forest personnel.
§ The Forest would also continue planned projects for fish barriers and removal in MYLF habitat within the ANF in order to aid in species recovery.
Next Steps
The ANF distributed the Environmental Assessment for comment in October, 2010, and the Forest is consolidating the response to the comments received. A decision is anticipated to occur spring, 2011.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say, pud... is the same situation that we were asked to send in notes about, a bit back... ?
thanks for sharing...
didn't know what happened...
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2011 - 06:54pm PT
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Hey neebee,
The decision will supposedly be based on the community feedback given back in October 2010.
Edit:
Last time my oldest son was there he was under 2 yrs old.
He follows 5.6 now.
Maybe this will be the summer we get our crag back!
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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So just to make sure I understand it, they're proposing a three year closure to monitor the results of their prior year and a half closure since the Station Fire?
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2011 - 07:15pm PT
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Yes.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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i think there are several aspects to this issue which need to be gone over, and i think the forest service owes us an informational meeting with experts prepared to weigh in.
1. the endangerment of a subspecies--how much of a "subspecies" is this, really? what's the big picture for the whole species? i've been told the MYLF has two subspecies, but the dividing line is around king's canyon, not the antelope valley, which separates the rare riparian habitat of southern california mountains from the sierra, where the MYLF is more lake-bound.
2. if the MYLF of southern california mountains is distinct enough to classify as an endangered species, we have to consider whether it's an endemic. there never are a lot of endemics. their habitat is defined by geography. an endemic isn't becoming endangered unless there is sufficient history established to determine whether it is significantly depleted from its population in the past.
3. factors--this is the big one. what's doing it? acid rain? ozone depletion and increased ultraviolet? a fungus? trout were a big factor in the sierra lakes--should climbing be shut down here because of what the government itself did stocking those lakes, thoughtlessly, for the fishing crowd? just how much can climbing be reasonably expected to stress the frog population? a hell of a lot less than fishing.
i understand that the government itself took 25 frogs out of the ecosystem and attempted, unsuccessfully, to breed them. am i right about this, pud? just a rumor at this point. i heard that all 25 died. there are 9 frogs--yes, an average population of 9 frogs--in upper little rock creek, which is the area adjacent to williamson gorge. 9 frogs. you can kill 25 frogs trying to "save" them. 9 frogs, i'll bet, will continue frogging along just fine with climbing going on 200 yards away. just a hunch. but this is the issue.
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
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is the road open?
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2011 - 08:45pm PT
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Road is closed @ Islip Saddle. 2 miles East of Williamson. So yes, Hwy 2 is open to the Eagle's Roost (Williamson) area.
Tony,
You may be right about the Sub-species theory, I don't know.
The failed tadpole growth effort in San Diego did take place.
29 tadpoles, three years, two short lived frogs.
The entire issue has been mired in bureaucratic mismanagement for over six years.
The chytrid fungus has been found in all remaining frogs in the Williamson Rock area.
The Forest sevice knows this. They cannot continue to blame climbers for the demise of this species.
A decision will be made soon.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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"29 tadpoles, three years, two short lived frogs."
Yeah, that's how it works with frogs. The big ones eat the little ones. No matter how many tadpoles you start with, you'll end up with only two frogs, the two who are too big to be eaten by each other.
I know that - from experience - and I don't have a biology degree.
I could have saved them some trouble - and a hell of a lot of money - if they had just asked around on here.
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apogee
climber
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Ouch. That sounds especially draconian, and gives the impression that someone has an anti-climbing agenda.
Don't get me wrong- I'm as conservationist as the next dread-headed liberal- but I can also recognize an ulterior motive when I see one.
The Station Fire is now being used as a convenient rationale to justify a 3 year closure of WR so that further studies and analysis can be done? Sheesh.
Word (or two) of advice: Don't take for granted your ability to climb at your favorite crag. And, get involved in climber advocacy groups, either locally &/or nationally. Silence = acceptance
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Iron Mtn.
Trad climber
Riverside, Ca.
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I agree, this seems very anti-climber to me as well. I'm pretty sure encroachment, pollution, etc. is a bigger factor in the frog's decline. I'm also sure that any climber here, that had tangible information proving that climbing was the culprit in this would gladly forfeit their privileges at this crag. This whole thing has been mired in bureaucracy and a lack of information from the beginning. That latest report is an extension of that . I think I know where all the money from the Adventure Pass is going to now....
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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ACH is open, but not from la cañada, you have to go up tujunga canyon and then take that road that crosses on the north side of strawberry peak. i've heard that it was opened to wrightwood last year, though it's probably still closed by snow at some point right now.
fyi, you can climb at spring crag, some short but sweet marshall routes there, and there is development of the tunnel crags by the islip tunnels, just a half mile from williamson gorge, same kind of rock. you can thank the notorious medusa for putting up a few moderates there recently.
funny, isn't it, how climbers are going to endanger the frogs, but ACH, with its pollution and noise, even closer to the prime frog habitat at the source of little rock creek, goes trundling on.
%$#$%^(*&^%$@!!!!!!
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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I have been climbing at Williamson since I was 11 y/o, I'm 44 now and have kids of my own who were born around the time of the closure. I'm bummed to say the least that I cant take my kids up there like my mom and dad took me. IMO the NFS cares very little about the climber and it's just easier and cheaper to close the whole area and play shell games in the meantime to keep climbers hopes up.
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Tfish
Trad climber
La Crescenta, CA
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The road is closed at Cedar Springs (Just past Snowcrest). I guess it washed out a little bit right around Williamson. So you'd have to still walk in a little bit to get to the Tunnels or pretty far to Spring Crag. Cal Trans sucks at life.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 6, 2011 - 12:46pm PT
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Batrock,
I couldn't agree more. I have three boys of which only one has been to Williamson when he was 3.
The FS cannot continue to ignore the climbing community.
Like any beauracracy, they are primarily concerned with the finacial bottom line.
This same issue can manifest itself at any of our National Parks pretty much overnight.
If we allow these small 'enviromental' groups to dictate how goverment agencies deal with endangered species through threat of lawsuit(s), we will continue to see closures throughout our national park system.
That is the reality of the Wiliamson Rock closure.
I'm not giving up.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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the NFS cares very little about the climber and it's just easier and cheaper to close the whole area
And we have a winner. That's essentially the land manager's first option when dealing with use issues. It's always far easier (and cheaper) to close an area than regulate it.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Like any beauracracy, they are primarily concerned with the finacial bottom line.
The purpose of every bureaucracy is to preserve and grow its funding. They never ever willingly shrink. There must be more money and jobs in the business of closure and study than in opening the area to the people.
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AndyG
climber
San Diego, CA
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Chaz opines, "29 tadpoles, three years, two short lived frogs."
Yeah, that's how it works with frogs. The big ones eat the little ones. No matter how many tadpoles you start with, you'll end up with only two frogs, the two who are too big to be eaten by each other.
I know that - from experience - and I don't have a biology degree.
I could have saved them some trouble - and a hell of a lot of money - if they had just asked around on here.
Yeah, I'm sure they just sat around and said, 'f**k these tadpoles are all just eating each other! Now what do we do?'
I am certainly not on the side of the FS here but they do have people that know just a bit more about raising amphibians than you do.
But hell, next time something's not working right in my research I'll just ask here on supertopo for a solution. I don't know why I didn't think of that sooner!
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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"I am certainly not on the side of the FS here but they do have people that know just a bit more about raising amphibians than you do."
Apparently not. They would have ended up with more than two frogs, if that were true.
The frogs I raise aren't *short lived*, either.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Remember how well the Park Service did protecting the Death Valley Pup Fish?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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i think it would be good to report what i know about the golf course put into tujunga wash a few years ago. there were 3-4 endangered or endemic species involved there, and the "approval process" (notice, not "disapproval process") took at least a couple of years, but the jack nicklaus-designed golf course, pushed by powerful developers over the objections of the local sierra club (but not the arizona-based national endangered species think tank which is giving the forest service nightmares about williamson), was approved in spite of concerns identical to those at williamson. a pupfish and a spineflower were involved. who cares about poopy pupfishes and spineflowers which look like weeds?
a golf course takes land permanently out of the natural environment and replaces it with suburban-type land use which can be expected to pollute itself and the surrounding ecosystem with pesticides, herbicides and artificial fertilizers and to spray an extraordinary amount of water to keep grass green through the hot, dry summer.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2011 - 11:35am PT
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Recently, I was organizing another meeting on the second anniversary of the first in 2009.
As was the first, it was to be held at the Santa Clarita offices of Congressman Buck McKeon.
The Congressman's staff has been very helpful and are interested in why this issue has taken so long to even find a path towards resolve.
Officials from the USFWS, USFS, Center For Biological Diversity and Representives of our local climbing community (myself included) had confirmed they would attend.
The Congressman's office sent a request for information from the USFS regarding this issue. Thier response was the brief that I posted at the beginning of this thread.
It is the first time I have seen an actual time frame when a 'decision' will be made in regard to access of the Williamson Rock area since the original closure took place in january 2005.
Because of this developement, the Congressman's staff and I agree that the meeting should be postponed for the time being. If the Supervisor of the Angeles National Forest finds that the area can be re-opened to the public while still protecting the MYLF, there would be no reason to meet.
If however, the decision is made to continue the closure, the Congressman's office is open to this meeting and it will be coordinated and carried out.
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Sagebrush Sally
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Ca
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Hi all,
I know I'm going to catch hell for sounding like I'm on the side of the government, but I'm going to throw my 2 cents in anyway. I've been working on mountain yellow legged frog research in the northern Sierra for the University of Califonia, the Forest Service, and the NPS for 6 years and I see some deep misunderstandings being discussed here.
The southern MYLF pop. has been listed as an endangered distinct population segment (DPS). That means that there are significant enough genetic differences between populations (from both of the northern populations (Rana Sierrae and Rana Muscosa, whose dividing line is King's Canyon)and the southern MYLF to consider them functionally different and require separate management. This means that the Forest Service is legally required to treat them as a separate unit under the Endangere Species Act. Additionally, there is no way that there is any population mixing between the Sierran frogs and the Williamson frogs rendering them genetically isolated. Isolated populations have a hard time. A single event, like the fires that winked out the other southern populations, can do them in.
Here are some thoughts about the difference between endemic and endangered and what that means in the context of the Endangered Species Act. Not all endemics are listed under the ESA, but many of them deserve to be. MYLFs are not endangered because they are endemic, but it contributes to the small, isolated populations that are often quite vulnerable. The main factors that have resulted in MYLF decline are fish stocking in historically fishless areas combined with the virulent chytrid fungus that has been absolutely ravaging high elevation frogs around the world. These frogs were certainly more abundant historically and a warming drying climate over the last 10,000 years has resulted in small isolated populations in the mountains. Should we say that they were going extinct anyway and doom them because they are inconvenient?
Mountain yellow legged frogs do not eat each other. This is fiction. Tadpoles eat algae, adults eat bugs.
should climbing be shut down here because of what the government itself did stocking those lakes, thoughtlessly, for the fishing crowd? just how much can climbing be reasonably expected to stress the frog population? a hell of a lot less than fishing.
I recognize that no one likes having their favorite recreation area shut down by some annoying frog. It is a hot issue and people get really pissed off about it. I've been yelled at by fishermen plenty over fish removal in 3 lakes while there are 10,000 other stocked lakes to fish in in the Sierra. It's a me first mentality. I find it interesting when user groups who are ordinarily very conservation minded are violently opposed to conservation that interferes with their recreation. I've dealt with that a lot with the rafting community who love fish and rivers, but would prefer that the water only be turned on when they are ready to raft, which really does not work well for fish and rivers.
i understand that the government itself took 25 frogs out of the ecosystem and attempted, unsuccessfully, to breed them. am i right about this, pud? just a rumor at this point. i heard that all 25 died. there are 9 frogs--yes, an average population of 9 frogs--in upper little rock creek, which is the area adjacent to williamson gorge. 9 frogs. you can kill 25 frogs trying to "save" them. 9 frogs, i'll bet, will continue frogging along just fine with climbing going on 200 yards away. just a hunch. but this is the issue.
There have been some successful captive breeding programs, but there is a lot that can go wrong in the lab. Most likely the population was infected with chytrid which generally does not affect tadpoles until they metamorphose into adults at which point there are high mortality rates. Chytrid attacks keratinized skin. In tadpoles, only the mouth parts are keratinized, in adults the entire skin is keratinized. Chytrid prevents osmoregulation meaning that the frogs essentially die of dehydration underwater. It's awful to watch.
There are probably ways that the climbing community could prevent impacts to the small remaining population at Williamson, but I'm not sure they would cooperate. Will everyone agree to stay out of the water? Keep your dogs out of the water? Will the riparian area be off limits? Will sediment from trails be kept out? Will human waste be handled properly? These are the sorts of things that managers have to assess and who knows if the community will cooperate.
I have never been to Williamson before, so I can't say either way whether it is feasible to protect the aquatic habitat. I would like to think there is a solution. The fact that the Forest Service lost all their records in the fire is a major setback. The NEPA process is huge and takes a long time.
This is not a government anti-climber conspiracy. I assure you the people who work for the Forest Service have far too much work to do to bother with that; there are simply not enough resources to address everyone's pet issue and a whole hell of a lot of work to do. It would be nice to get some resolution to this issue, but based on what Pud posted and my understanding of how these things work, I'm going to say that it's going to take some time. Be patient, be realistic. If you've got other endangered species issues (plants and peregrines), it's going to be difficult.
sabra
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Tfish
Trad climber
La Crescenta, CA
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I've never been down to Williamson, but I have been to buckhorn and cooper canyon falls. Which is right next to Williamson. So how come access to there isn't threatened at all? People and dogs are allowed to go into those streams no problem, but just down stream where climbers go it’s a hazard to the frogs?
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2011 - 01:50pm PT
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Sabra,
It is refreshing to see someone committed to true conservation. Not another 'enviromentalist' with short-sighted band-aid solutions.
My experience with the local climbing community in regard to this particular issue has been a positive one.
I recognize that no one likes having their favorite recreation area shut down by some annoying frog. It is a hot issue and people get really pissed off about it. I've been yelled at by fishermen plenty over fish removal in 3 lakes while there are 10,000 other stocked lakes to fish in in the Sierra. It's a me first mentality. I find it interesting when user groups who are ordinarily very conservation minded are violently opposed to conservation that interferes with their recreation. I've dealt with that a lot with the rafting community who love fish and rivers, but would prefer that the water only be turned on when they are ready to raft, which really does not work well for fish and rivers.
I don't think the local climbing community views the MYLF as annoying. What does annoy them is the way this issue has been mis-handled by the agencies involved.
I also think the parrallels you draw with rafters and fishermen short-change the local climbing community.
Of the 500+ emails I received in '09 prior to the first meeting, many folks offered their time, talents and money in some cases, to help construct a working program that would allow climber access while maintaining a viable habitat for the MYLF @ Williamson. Many were willing to volunteer thier time to see that it was maintained long term.
Did you ever get this type of response from the sportsmen you refer to?
This is not a government anti-climber conspiracy. I assure you the people who work for the Forest Service have far too much work to do to bother with that; there are simply not enough resources to address everyone's pet issue and a whole hell of a lot of work to do. It would be nice to get some resolution to this issue, but based on what Pud posted and my understanding of how these things work, I'm going to say that it's going to take some time. Be patient, be realistic. If you've got other endangered species issues (plants and peregrines), it's going to be difficult.
Agreed, the Angeles National Forest Service is not anti-climber.
As a matter of fact, the newly appointed ANF Supervisor Tom Contreras is a rock climber. He is the line officer designated to make the upcoming decision.
I believe that the local climbing community has been patient.
The average timeline for an environmental assessment is generally six to nine months, and for an environmental impact statement around 18-24 months.
We are in our 6th year of closure.
We (the climbing community) are all on the same path with the same goals. We want access to a publc land and we want to help preserve that enviroment and all of the plants and animals that inhabit it.
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Sagebrush Sally
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Ca
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Pud,
Thanks for the reply. I recognize that I have not been involved in this issue and don't know all that has happened. This seems like an unfortunately long process. I'm sure things will improve with the upcoming govt. shutdown. Hopefully the issue can get some resolution soon. I know 6 years is really long. I'll help in any way I can.
Sabra
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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did that frog turn into seth?
-------
i think it's worthwhile to discuss the particulars of the williamson situation, since we've all been getting different stories from different people in the government.
williamson gorge is snowed in the winter. the creek runs in the spring, into june, july, maybe as late as early august on a wet year, then dry as a bone, running underground to considerably below the climbing area.
prime frog habitat, as i understand, is upstream from the climbing area around that old mine shack where the spring for little rock creek originates. it'll be wetter there, with pools, into late summer.
i think the climbing area represents a significant physical barrier to general frog traffic even when it has water. steep sides, a 10-foot waterfall, boulders, cold water falling steeply through a lot of nonprime frog habitat. even when water gets through the rocks and waterfall, it runs through a gravelly bed for considerable distance past london wall and stream wall--has anyone ever seen a frog there?
i'll bet the gorge is a significant barrier--even though i was told otherwise by a forest service biologist--and that the frogs above the gorge sit tight in their little paradise, breed, get eaten by the raccoons and have maintained a stable, endemic population of nine (9) since halfway back to the last ice age.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Thank you for your post sabra. It's the first time I've heard a coherent discussion of the subject.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Tony,
Never seen a frog at the London Wall but have seen a number of rattlesnakes or maybe it's just one snake who lives near the London Wall. I have seen frogs further downstream from the LW area, about 200 yards downstream is a year round pool that would be perfect habitat for frogs. As you mentioned the other area is near the mill site upstream but I have even seen that pool dry up in dry years. The prime area seems like it would be way downstream near Buckhorn where there is a year round stream.
I would think that a dedicated trail to the rock and closure of the London Wall would go a long way toward protecting this frog if there are any near the climbing area. I have been playing in that stream for 34 years and have never seen one near the London Wall but who knows?
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2011 - 07:27pm PT
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Sabra,
Thanks for the offer. I might take you up on it.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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the FS biologist--i think her name was theresa, out of the valencia office--told me that the frogs travel through the gorge. i still doubt that. i haven't talked to a climber who has ever seen a frog in the gorge.
so that mine/mill site, 200 yards upstream, and the pool batrock mentions, 200 yards downstream, gotta be well past the climbing, even that 10b crag at the south end of things. downstream there are other issues, namely that of stocked trout and a dam, and the condition of the dam, which can be a barrier to trout traffic, good for the frog, bad for trout lovers. (sabra, have you ever kissed a trout?)
anyway, pud was talking at one point about volunteering for whatever needs to be done about that dam, for whatever sides we take with nature here--so's we can get back to climbing again. a lot of people have talked about "compromise"--maybe staying away from stream and london. let's please try to base this on as much science and fact as possible. if the froggies aren't truckin' through the gorge, there's no reason we ought not be able to climb there anywhere.
and i don't mind inserting another species into this, that of the peregrine falcon. everyone who climbed at williamson in the 3-4 years before its closure remembers the beautiful pair of nesting peregrines which took up residence on eagle's roost buttress--should be renamed falcon's roost. they stood their ground and tooled any climbers who dared venture near when it was inappropriate. i'm not a falcon expert, but i think it's a great example of how climbing does not affect wildlife.
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otis
Trad climber
Lake Arrowhead, Ca
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It's time we make our decisions based on common sense. I don't like being told I can't use our public lands, but if it's for a good reason I'll abide. This sounds like a clusterfuk. I wouldn't hesitate to go climbing at Williamson
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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I wish I had taken more pictures while climbing up there, I have a few from 1983 climbing on the main wall near the top with a few high school friends that I dragged up, I'll try and dig them up and scan them.
We should start a Williamson Rock photo thread to spread the love. Williamson was a great spot to go if you didn't want to or didn't have time to travel to JT or further destinations.
Post up your pics.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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"Let my people climb!"
It appears that climbers huffing weed ain't why the froggies are disappearing.
Sounds like it has been the 'scientists' huffing the ganja.
Killer fungus linked to vanishing amphibians
Studying decades-old museum samples of frogs, toads and salamanders, biologist trace the path of a deadly skin disease across Mexico and Central America.
By Amina Khan, Los Angeles Times
May 7, 2011
Around the world, frogs, salamanders and other amphibians are disappearing — and much about their demise has been a mystery. Now, in an episode of amphibian CSI, biologists have used decades-old museum samples of frogs, toads and salamanders to track the relentless path of a killer fungus across Mexico and Central America over the last 40 years.
The findings, published online Monday in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, strongly link the amphibians' disappearance to the fungus and suggest that the disease was an alien invader rather than a native disease let loose by climate change.
By some estimates, about 40% of amphibian species are in decline. The main suspect is a skin fungus, Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis, known as Bd. The disease causes salamanders to lose their tails and frogs to lose weight, killing the animals within about three weeks.
Though scientists have known for decades that amphibians were mysteriously dying, by the time the they realized the scope of the problem in the 1990s, it was too late for many species. Costa Rica's golden toad, for example, went extinct within three years in the late 1980s.
The fungus, discovered a decade later, was eventually identified as a suspect. However, researchers needed more information from the past.
"It would be great if we could go to these areas and study this disease," said lead author Tina Cheng, a graduate student at San Francisco State University. Confirming the fungus' relationship to the creatures' deaths, and understanding how it traveled, could help researchers learn how to contain it. "But," Cheng added, "the sad fact of the matter is that most of the animals are not there for us to study anymore."
The extensive collection of amphibians at UC Berkeley's Museum of Vertebrate Zoology provided a solution: It contained a trove of frogs, salamanders and other amphibians collected from sites around the world. The researchers could look for evidence of the fungus on the skin of creatures that were jarred and pickled decades ago, at times when the fungus was just emerging and later on, when it had spread to epidemic status.
Using traditional methods — cutting up pieces of skin and looking for the fungus through a microscope — would have been too difficult and would have destroyed the specimens, Cheng said. Genetic analysis also seemed problematic because the formalin preservative chemically chops up DNA into little pieces. Nonetheless, Cheng realized that DNA analysis could work because the fragments of fungal DNA they were looking for were so small that the DNA dicing couldn't harm them.
Analysis of swabs from the bodies of frogs and toads from Costa Rica and salamanders from Mexico and Guatemala revealed some striking patterns: The fungus emerged in southern Mexico in the early 1970s and spread to western Guatemala over the next two decades, then reached Monteverde, Costa Rica, by 1987. The fungus' path matched the drops in population of a variety of amphibian species in those regions.
"The minute it shows up, things go bad pretty quick," said Karen Lips, an ecologist at the University of Maryland who was not involved in the study.
The fungus appeared to have been be completely absent in the years before scientists first detected the disease outbreaks — making it unlikely that it was there all along and began to run amok because of some environmental change, such as altered climate patterns.
One theory, Cheng said, is that it was introduced by the African claw-toed frog, a carrier of the disease that was once imported from Africa for use in pregnancy tests.
Cheng said the next step would be to use the same type of DNA analysis to search for the fungus on museum specimens in other parts of the world to see whether Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis was wreaking havoc there too.
"There's going to be a lot of people going to museums and following up on things because there's a lot of unexplained [amphibian] disappearances around the world," Lips said.
amina.khan@latimes.com
Copyright © 2011, Los Angeles Times
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 23, 2011 - 12:57am PT
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bump for Willy!
Sitting at Stoney in 90 degree temps, knowing it's a balmy 70 degrees at Williamson, motivates me to never surrender!
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rurprider
Trad climber
Mt. Rubidoux
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Jun 23, 2011 - 07:22am PT
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1946 - Rock climbing introduced to Williamson Rock, Angeles National Forest, by the RCS (Sierra Club Rock Climbing Section). 1987 - Williamson Rock "rediscovered" by Troy Mayr, and friends. 2011 - ????
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guyman
Trad climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Jun 23, 2011 - 09:54am PT
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Its time to go climbing.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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Jun 23, 2011 - 10:19am PT
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I was up there 2 weeks ago at Cooper Canyon Falls. Great flyfishing. Little Rock Creek is full of trout (there's who's eatin' yer frogs) Landed a couple of keepers. Lots of small fry up and coming.
I came in on the trail from Devil's Punchbowl (where few seem to climb any more) up over Burkhart Pass. About 10 miles. Really nice backpack.
Williamson rock should be be opened to climbing. This closure makes no sense. I guess it is easy to put up a sign and tell climbers "No." Much harder to get down in the 5-6 mile long canyon and fish all the trout out.
Although there is a lot of other rock available in this area. The crags around the tunnels, and plenty other random crags in the high country there are wide open.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 23, 2011 - 08:37pm PT
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Good points Spider. There are many other areas near Williamson that are ripe for climbing.
I breathe air into this thread because I don't ever want to make it easy for the Forest Service to continue to sit on thier hands as they wait and hope something will come along and make all this bothersome frog/climber issue 'go away'.
The Forest Service can listen to climbers and hikers willing to give thier time and energy to help with the re-opening of Williamson Rock. They can do the right thing and work with the climbing community to solve this problem.
They have proven they will not do this if left alone. They have proven they will not be pro-active in this matter and will only act when they have no other option.
They have no other option now.
I am in contact with parties that are interested in seeing this matter dealt with by the ANF sooner than later.
These parties are concerned with the way this issue is being handled and are helping the climbing community by making it clear to the ANF that the continued avoidence of dealing with this issue will not be tolerated.
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westhegimp
Social climber
granada hills
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Jun 23, 2011 - 10:08pm PT
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Lots of climbing memories there. Hopefully we will climb there again. Thanks for your efforts Wayne.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 29, 2011 - 01:55am PT
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Judge Marilyn Hall Patel, a Carter appointee. Great.
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apogee
climber
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Jun 29, 2011 - 02:02am PT
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Ergo, Carter = Evil.
Can't climb at Williamson? It's all Carter's fault.
Ksolem, that's an irrelevant, pandering, ideologic cheap shot.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 29, 2011 - 02:23am PT
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O come on. It's an ill informed decision by a judge who wants to feel good. And yes, she is a Carter appointee, something which I think is worth pointing out.
How the heck is pointing out that President Carter put her on the bench a cheap shot? Did I touch a nerve? It is simply a fact.
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apogee
climber
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Jun 29, 2011 - 02:36am PT
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"It's an ill informed decision by a judge who wants to feel good."
That's probably true.
"And yes, she is a Carter appointee, something which I think is worth pointing out."
Carter left office 40 years ago. Do you really think his influence on this judge was so strong as to affect her decision to close an area to specific user group? Her decision was her decision. I'll be as skeptical as you or anyone as to the basis for her position, but connecting it via the most non-existent thread to Carter does nothing more than dissolve your own credibility.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 29, 2011 - 02:44am PT
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First off, you attempted to create my point of view as "Carter = evil."
You could not be more wrong. In my opinion Jimmy Carter is a generous and charitable man with a distinguished military record and a great humanitarian.
He led a failed Presidency, much of which was out of his control but some of which was in his control. I didn't like his choices of the people he surrounded himself with and I don't like much the legacy he left in terms of judicial appointees. This judge is an example of that.
And the fact that Carter left office 40 years ago but his judicial appointees are still running amok is proof that "elections have consequences."
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apogee
climber
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Jun 29, 2011 - 02:59am PT
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Ksolem, you obviously have a big chip on your shoulder about Carter's presidency. (Or that's what it looks like, anyway.) Whatever shape that discussion might take, it has virtually nothing to do with this issue.
Presidential-appointed judges frequently develop legacies that diverge from the ideology of the POTUS who appointed them. (Kennedy? O'Connor?) Setting aside the political implications and agendas of a POTUS-appointed judge, every one of them are individuals who make judgements according to their experiences...in the end, it is their decision alone, and not the responsibility of a POTUS who appointed them 40 years ago.
I'm not particularly psyched on some of the decisions that the Roberts court has made in the last 10 years, but when I can step outside my ideology for a moment, I think I understand the core constitutional values that they are operating from. (Most recently: the SCOTUS decision re: Cali's video games law.)
Let's agree that the continued closure of WR seems capricious, and driven by hidden & unfounded agendas. Anything beyond that just seems conspiratorial and divisive.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 29, 2011 - 03:09am PT
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I have no chip on my shoulder regarding Jimmy Carter. I just tried to explain that.
I admire the man for many things he has done. Not so much as President though. But there is no doubt his heart is in the right place, and that puts him above most politicians.
You seem to think that I am saying that the judge is somehow under his influence. That is not my point. I agree wholeheartedly that the decision was hers alone. But, there is an ideological connection between the appointer and the appointee in this case (imho.)
Gotta snooze now, fun as always...
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Jun 29, 2011 - 11:29am PT
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This is sad news. I had hoped to start taking my kids up there at some point in the future but it is not looking good. Simply sad.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jun 29, 2011 - 02:31pm PT
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Judges makes decisions based upon the facts presented to them. They may filter those facts thru their own sensibilities but, if there was no evidence submitted to dispute the need to protect the area, you've given a judge nothing on which base a decision to open the area.
I'd like to see Williamson opened, but until someone invests the time and money to obtain some persuasive expert opinions to support reopening, it doesn't appear likely to happen. It's not enough to say 'I like to climb there and I haven't seen any frogs.'
BTW, I can't think of a single district court judge who's been on the bench for 30+ yrs., now were talking about someone who was alleged appointed 40 yrs. ago. That doesn't sound right, unless this judge is WAY old.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Jun 29, 2011 - 02:44pm PT
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Fat Dad nails it on the head.
As for the Ad Hominem attack on the Judge, isn't it by definition fallacious?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 29, 2011 - 02:45pm PT
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According to the wiki page she is about 73 and was appointed by Carter in 1980.
Edit: Ad hominem attack on the judge? I just think it's a bad decision and sets an ominous precedent. Since there's really nothing I can do about it I'll just go away now.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jun 29, 2011 - 02:50pm PT
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According to the wiki page she is about 73 and was appointed by Carter in 1980. That would mean she was appointed to the federal bench at 32, or only 5-8 years out of law school. Again, doesn't sound right. While you occassionally get some younger appointees (maybe late 30s-early 40s), even that is really uncommon. I can't even think of any state court judges who were appointed that young. I'm not saying it's you Kris. Probably just some misinformation on wiki.
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AndyG
climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 29, 2011 - 04:04pm PT
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2011 - 1980 = 31, not 40. Ergo, she was 42 when appointed. I can't believe I am bothering to write this.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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Jun 29, 2011 - 04:12pm PT
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FACT: Articles in the LA Times always have at least one or more facts that are not true.
Don't get too serious.
Batrock: We should take the kids fishing down there!
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Jun 29, 2011 - 04:48pm PT
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Chief you make a good point, climbers tend to think of themselves as environmentalists and in the process end up alienating themselves. Most climbers I know are pretty middle of the road when it comes to politics and realize supporting radical groups such as The Center for Biological Diversity will end up biting them in the ass in the long run.
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Heyzeus
climber
Hollywood,Ca
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Jun 29, 2011 - 11:36pm PT
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This sucks. Never thought I'd miss this place, but I sure would like to see it reopen.
I wish I had the money to hire a biologist and lawyers and sue. I think it's a winnable case.
Aren't there any climber biologists out there able and willing to do some pro bono work? Highly skilled lawyers?
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2011 - 03:00pm PT
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No sweat. This is a vague and obvioulsy uninformed decision.
The Center for Biological Diversity may be "ecstatic" about this ruling but, thier ecstasy will be short lived.
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Jun 30, 2011 - 07:13pm PT
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Pud what makes you think that? Just curious as to who you feel will go up against this ruling and/or try to sue?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 30, 2011 - 07:47pm PT
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interesting that the decision was made without involving the user group--us--in the least.
pud has some contact with congressman mckeon's office on this subject. nothing come of that?
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2011 - 08:36pm PT
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In March we initiated a meeting between the Federal agencies involved in the Williamson Rock closure to be attended at Congressman Buck McKeon's office in Santa Clarita, CA.
When the Forest Service was invited to attend, they sent a memo to the congressman's office stating "A decision is anticipated to occur spring, 2011. (see 1st post)
Upon receiving this memo, the congressman's office and I agreed to put the meeting "on hold" to see what the outcome of this decision would be.
The decision was to be made by the acting Angeles National Forest Supervisor, Tom Contreres.http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/news/2006/new-supervisor-mendocino.shtml
Mr Contreres is in a 120 day "temporary" position as ANF Supervisor. At the end of this term, he may be appointed "permanent" status, given an additional temporary position or a new candidate may be initiated in a temporary or permanent position. To be detemined by the Western regional offices of the USFS in Valejo, CA.
Since the "anticipated decision" timeframe had passed, I contacted the Congressman's office on 6/22/11.
The Congressman's office is in full support of finding a solution to this long standing problem and have been instrumental in giving a voice to the outdoor community.
I spoke with Congressman Buck Mckeon's office today. When they received my email on 6/22, they sent a request to the USFS regarding the passing of the proposed decision making timeframe.
They are awaiting a reponse and will notify me when this takes place.
My thoughts on Judge Marilyn Hall Patel's latest ruling.
When a District Court Judge for the Northern District of California makes a blanket ruling to "take all necessary measures to better protect 40 endangered species in four national forests in Southern California." it does not mean that the agencies involved will do the right thing to protect these species.
It does mean that the users of this land need to be involved so that Federal Agencies do not continue to close access to our Wilderness, Parks, Monuments and Forests in order to pander to teams of lawyers such as those provided by the Center For Biological Diversity.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jun 30, 2011 - 08:55pm PT
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When a District Court Judge for the Northern District of California makes a blanket ruling to "take all necessary measures to better protect 40 endangered species in four national forests in Southern California." it does not mean that the agencies involved will do the right thing to protect these species.
It does mean that the users of this land need to be involved so that Federal Agencies do not continue to close access to our Wilderness, Parks, Monuments and Forests in order to pander to teams of lawyers such as those provided by the Center For Biological Diversity. pud, I'm curious as to how your meeting turns out. Keep us posted.
I echo your sentiment that a court ruling to protect species may not be implemented in the best manner to protect any one species, let alone 40. It appears at this point that the only "protection" offered is to keep out the people, which may or may not be the cause of the problem. Still, given the decline of the MYLF, which I'm guessing didn't start with people climbing at Williamson, there have to be other factors at play which likely are not being addressed.
Re pandering, I respectfully disagree. I think everyone wants to do what they believe is the right thing. The problem is that people have different views of what that is.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2011 - 09:58pm PT
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I think everyone wants to do what they believe is the right thing. The problem is that people have different views of what that is.
With the Wiliamson Rock issue we have a large group of land users willing and able to work with Federal agencies in order to contribute to a solution and help this endangered species coexist with human activities.
The answer is not to close our forest to recreation but to adapt to it's enviroment so that we are mutually beneficial. This can be done through hard work, cooperation and respect for individual concerns.
By closing this land the Federal Goverment is taking the easy way out and not really addressing the problem. The CBD sues the Feds and they respond by giving in. I cannot respect institution(s) that use these tactics in order to attain thier idea of what is "the right thing".
So far, the Federal agencies involved have not looked for ways to solve the real problems associated with this Species, rather they allow lawsuits and threats of litigation to plot thier course of action.
This is unacceptable and should not be tolerated. If you think you don't have the power to affect change, then you truly do not.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Has anyone spoken directly with the CBD regarding this issue? Are they willing to work with us to find a solution or have they drawn a line in the sand? You would think with a group as large as the CBD there would be a few climbers who might sympathize with us or are they really that militant?
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 1, 2011 - 12:26am PT
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Batrock,
I contacted the CBD back in March and they were willing to attend the scheduled meeting at that time. I still have contact numbers and names.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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If we could get the trout out of the creek for them it seems we might be able convince them of a climbing off-set.
Just wait until dry season then go in with some nets and stuff. Not easy but if we worked at it for a few years we could make an impact. A couple of 8ft high check dams with frog ladders etc.
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Heyzeus
climber
Hollywood,Ca
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Mar 13, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
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Very interesting, thanks Chaz.
But probably won't matter to them,they still won't open it. I'll hope otherwise though.
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middle joe
Trad climber
oc
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Mar 13, 2012 - 06:13pm PT
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Worldwide, the chytrid fungus has spread to nearly 600 species of frogs, Vredenburg said, and has probably driven more than 200 species to extinction.
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2012/03/12/MNKO1NJKED.DTL#ixzz1p2MtAPbg
Humm,I always figured that natural predators, not human the presence, was probably the the guilty party here. The Forest Service never had any evidence it was humans, we were just the easiest to exclude. I never even thought about disease! Makes sense.. But I agree, even if you present the Forest Service scientific evidence of a much more likely scenario it's not going to change their minds.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 13, 2012 - 06:35pm PT
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They'll probably decide that since the population is stressed there is all the more reason to keep people out...
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2012 - 06:53pm PT
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I'll foward this to Congressman Buck McKeon's office as well as ANF Supervisor's office.
Unfortunately, Judge Marilyn Hall Patel has already caved into the CBD and thier lawsuits.
I plan on contacting this Carter appointee and giving her more information but work, family and life have put this effort on back burner for the last 6 mos.
Still, the Williamson Rock closure is an irritating manipulation of the system by self-serving individuals calling themselves "environmentalists".
I've learned that some folks here belong to the CBD so I will no longer discuss this issue online.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Mar 13, 2012 - 07:01pm PT
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Cool heads must prevail. It is apparent that the immediate course of of action should be the proper training and support of a highly specialized team of Yellow Legged Frogs. This small but effective teams can go into infected areas and immunize the diseased frogs and bring the population back to health. Of course this plan can only work in conjunction with a team of highly trained "killer frogs" to swoop in and eradicate the carriers. FROGY2012
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Mar 14, 2012 - 11:36am PT
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i made a couple phone calls on this subject since the last postings. come to find out, the frog population has gone up since the area has been closed. they had a census of 9 frogs when they closed williamson. the next year it was up quite a bit--now it seems to be running at around 30-40 frogs.
it's hard to argue with that. i've learned to climb elsewhere. echo cliff is a distant second as a favorite, and i'm learning to like MCSP and texas canyon. getting further out too, burning more gas on destinations. part of the alternative environmental impact.
we still don't know whether there are 40 MYLFs left on the planet, all at williamson gorge, or whether they continue to exist, though endangered, throughout their historic range, which extended, not that many years ago, from san diego county into oregon. but it's not a need-to-know thing, right?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Mar 14, 2012 - 12:19pm PT
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there are a few here who really care about this issue. here's how things go--from a "stunning victory" for environmentalists to flat-out golf course development in the space of about three years.
i notice the CBD was not involved. why not? the forest service people seem to be scared to death of them. i'll tell you what was involved, however. lots and lots of money and lawyers crying "i'll sue! i'll sue!"
here's the tradeoff: okay, we can build the golf course right smack in the middle of the sensitive habitat, but we'll buy a few acres upstream and give it to the government so it'll never be developed.
hint: it wouldn't be developed anyway--until someone wants another golf course.
http://articles.latimes.com/1992-09-01/local/me-6906_1_big-tujunga-wash
http://articles.latimes.com/1997/jul/23/local/me-15572
http://articles.latimes.com/1998/feb/22/local/me-21969
http://la.curbed.com/archives/2011/11/big_tujunga_wash_no_longer_belongs_to_a_golf_course.php
some quotes:
"I've never seen a golf course yet where I could get in touch with my Creator," complained Anita Jesse, a Sunland resident who disputed the developer's claims that the course would be environmentally sensitive.
On the other side was Joe Cohen, a Sunland retiree unsympathetic to the fate of the slender-horned spineflower. The spineflower, a plant that lives in the rugged wash and is on the federal endangered species list, would be threatened by construction of the golf club, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service experts have said. "If most people saw this plant in their yard, they'd pull it out as a weed."
but it wasn't just a "weed" at stake.
http://www.theriverproject.org/learn/habitat/wildlife
In Big Tujunga Wash and the Santa Clara River the federally threatened Santa Ana sucker and arroyo chub are still surviving, as is the speckled dace. Before channelization of the rivers, steelhead trout up to three feet long were common.
now, feast your eyes:
http://angelesnational.com/
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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The situation at Williamson sounds exactly like the situation at Summit Rock in Sanborn County Park where Park Staff and the Park and Recreation Commission are trying to keep it closed year-round for Peregrine nesting no matter what one of the foremost peregrine experts in the whole world, Dr. Clayton White, told them. Interesting to note that the yellow-legged frogs are actually threatened by a fungus spread by the American bull-frog:
http://www.baycitizen.org/science/story/despite-deadly-fungus-frog-imports-1/
It's just so transparent how radical environmentalists are using ecological concerns as a pretext for keeping people out of nature, to coin a phrase, creating a "people-free" zone wherever they want to establish such a region no matter what science and reason have to say.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Correct me if I'm mistaken, but wasn't Richard Pombo shot dead last night in a drive by shooting in Richmond? I heard he was taken to the hospital on life support and pronounced DOA when he was wheeled into ER . . . Wasn't Pompo some kind of Italian-American property owner in the Central Valley who got voted out of office a while back?
I don't think the dichotomy here is Democrat versus Republican; rather it's mentally ill versus sane. You can work with any traditional politico who's trying to create a viable consensus; however, those who retreat into the non-profits don't have to answer to anyone but people who agree with them 100%. Open and democratic versus close-minded and self-referential.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Apr 10, 2012 - 04:49pm PT
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FOW?
Things are going just fine without a wanna-be cop who only pretends to have real political power butting in and upsetting the forensic apple cart.
One step at a time. "The mills of the gods grind slowly, but they grind exceedingly fine".
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Apr 10, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
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We are so screwed.
All that it takes to close a place down.
Grad student with funding from wacked enviro group.
A "study" .... OK if flawed.
And one Judge.
It's closed.... forever.
Bruce, thank you for your efforts. I hope it works out.
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Tfish
Trad climber
La Crescenta, CA
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Apr 10, 2012 - 06:26pm PT
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and have plenty of political connection
Hey baby dick, if you do have any power, prove it and get these places open.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Anything new out there in regards to Williamson?
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