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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Mar 15, 2011 - 04:51am PT
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You're right....I'm calling it a night. Im glad someone else if working it too.
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jsb
Trad climber
Bay area
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Mar 15, 2011 - 04:53am PT
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I solved it in 5 minutes. But that also means I have played far too much chess. That time would have been much better spent playing outside. It's definitely a tricky one. :)
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eliot carlsen
Social climber
San Diego
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Mar 15, 2011 - 04:55am PT
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For sure Colin! I'm always down to play. I used to play a lot more but haven't in a while. These threads have definitely given me the inspiration to start studying the game again.
Isn't the answer Qd2?
Edit: Actually I just saw the error in that move...Kxa6 2.Nd6+ b5
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Mar 15, 2011 - 12:55pm PT
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Yup, got me. My "solution" isn't one. The King can indeed escape to the northeast. I was seeing that rook as a bishop in my early-morning "mind's eye."
Hmm... a five-minute solution, huh? Guess I haven't played enough.
Still fun... I'm going to look at it again tonight.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Mar 15, 2011 - 01:43pm PT
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If rook takes A7, king could move C6. Then if Queen takes B6, king could move D5.
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thetennisguy
Mountain climber
Yuba City, CA
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Mar 15, 2011 - 01:54pm PT
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1. Bg2 ... white mates next move
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 15, 2011 - 02:36pm PT
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Some nice tries, such as r x a7, but the queen, as has
been noted makes it out through d5 after moving first to c6.
Yes the answer is Bishop to g2, a nice unlikely move.
The themse of the problem, which to discover is part of
problem solving and composition is to give the king
a full four move spectrum. Any of those four moves
end in mate.
OK.
Here's another jsb.
White pieces:
pawns at e6, f3
knights at b5 and e1
rook at d2
bishop at g3
king at c1
queen at c7
black pieces:
pawns at d3, e4, e7
knight at d6
bishops at a7 and b7
king at e3
White to move and mate in two
This is about a four minute problem, although
the complications after the solution will take
a small bit to notice all of them (big hint).
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Mar 15, 2011 - 02:47pm PT
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Ok, Im still not seen it.
So if Bishop moves G2, black king has three options. It can move can move A4 (resulting in Queen taking pawn A3 checkmate, or it can move C6, or it can take knight C4 (White rook moves F4, resulting in checkmate(....
So the second case, King C6 is the only option, but I don't see a checkmate in one move.....Can someone fill me in?
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Mar 15, 2011 - 02:54pm PT
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Hey Friend,
So if White rook takes A7, Black king can move C6 or A4. A4 will result in a checkmate by moving queen C3, so the best option is moving King C6. But from there I don't see a checkmate in only one more move. For example, if rook is moved C7, king can move back to B5 resulting in more than just two moves....
Its that C6 move that keeps checkmate in in two moves from happening.
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eliot carlsen
Social climber
San Diego
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Mar 15, 2011 - 03:06pm PT
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Friend, that rook move looks good but it won't produce mate in two when the king moves to c6
For example: 1.Rxa7 Kc6 2.Qxb6+ Kd5 or... 2.Qe5 as suggested doesn't give check when the king is at c6
As far as the answer goes...1.Bg2 Ka4 2.Qxb3++ or 1...Kxa6 2.Qxb6++ (clever pinned mate) or 1...Kc6 2. Rf5++ (discovered) lastly 1...Kxc4 2.Qd3++
Very nice problem. Pretty complicated with four possible moves for the King. I better stick with the "30 second" problems.
HAHA, very nice Friend! A future Grandmaster there!
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Mar 15, 2011 - 03:18pm PT
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1...Kc6 2. Rf5++
At this point, king is not in check? Black pawn can also take Rook at F5 (EDIT): Got it now, king is in check from bishop....but king could still move back to B5? (EDIT AGAIN): Thats it....well done : )
Thats great picture Friend. My Dad also taught me to play.
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Mar 15, 2011 - 03:33pm PT
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I gave up in disgust after about 3-4 minutes the first time I looked at the Pat's Puzzle #1... I'm too impatient to methodically go through the permutations to find which one works.
But I just gave it a second look at figured it out within about 5 minutes. Pretty interesting problem to find the solution in 2 moves.
That said, the overall the situation is contrived, because there are many thuggish solutions that can take more than 2 moves, and just about anyone who knows the basic rules of chess would win if placed in the white position.
I liked the problems in an old Bobby Fischer book, taken from his real games, where they had a graphical layout and you needed to find the mate in 4 moves, and if you couldn't keep control (i.e. checking the guy and forcing his move) the opponent's next move would force all your moves until you were mated.
Pat, maybe you can modify this layout so there is some looming threat against white to make the 2-move solution and keeping control more urgent? For example, add a black pawn at f7, a black rook at h2 and black queen at h7.
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Mar 15, 2011 - 03:37pm PT
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Ha, I got #2 in about 20 seconds, with another few minutes to make sure there were no escapes. Shaking the rust off.... But I'm pretty sure I would be completely destroyed in a real game with most of the chess players around here.
And take Puzzle#2, add black queen at f6, and move black's light-square bishop to f1. This would be just to create some urgency for white's solution.
I had a friend who grew up in the same town as Gary Kasparov where chess was pretty big, and this friend studied (not just played) chess for hours every day after school. It opened my eyes to how much practice it takes to memorize openings and responses and have that basic database to build on, separate from whatever knowledge of principles and tactics and strategy. This guy could have arguments on the phone and seemingly not pay attention to our game, and point out my mistaken move before I took my finger off the piece. It was all just automatic for him, not even getting into situations where he had to think. It was humbling, and I learned a lot quickly, and still was so far behind.
It's sort of like improving in climbing from 5.7 to 5.10, and gaining more of an appreciation (but still not really getting it) for what it means to be a 5.12 or 5.14 climber.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 15, 2011 - 03:55pm PT
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People tell me they got the solution, then I find out they
didn't, only thought they did. But the commentary about
problems being contrived.... that's an old gripe and doesn't
mean anything to real problem composers. It's like saying
Picasso is contrived and weird, and nothing like that would
happen in real life. Ho hum. The grandmaster
composers don't care about contrived, since there are millions
of possible situations in chess, and anything is possible.
It's only inexperience that suggests something is contrived.
And just because there are ten mates in three on the board,
or because the black pieces are outnumbered greatly, it still
remains that there is a correct move to be seen. You wouldn't
believe some of the situations that arise in chess. You'd
never believe they could have been possible. So that's not
a valid argument. If you don't like problems, don't look
at them. More important is, did the composer use
proper economy, was there a theme, how do the variations work,
etc. Difficulty is far down on the list of importance, as long
as the solution isn't obvious. To complain about contrived
is, if I may be so crass as to say so, a reflection of ability
level. Real chess players love problems, and often the more
contrived the better. I personally don't care for the
the bizarre problems, such as mate in twenty or
take back your last move and mate in four, and weird things
such as that. I prefer the simplicity of two and three move mates.
The test is to see the situation and find the moves, not just
the solution but the complications and themes. When someone
above says, "the rook at f5 can be taken by the pawn," well you
have to be at last good enough to see that when the rook moves
it is revealing check with the bishop, and mate comes before the
rook could be captured. Some of you aren't even seeing all the
possible king moves and then don't deliver mate at the right spot,
and so forth. That, I suppose, is the joy and beauty of it, to
be accurate, to see deeper, see the subtleties,
to find the art, to express it.
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Mar 15, 2011 - 04:14pm PT
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Hi Pat, please don't take my feedback as an affront. The problems themselves are interesting, and I know without a doubt you are a much better chess player than I am.
I'm just expressing an opinion about what makes a problem interesting. For me, the idea of "you better figure this out in X moves or you're toast" adds something to a problem, as a separate layer from finding the moves. Maybe it's like the difference between a climb where the easiest way is 5.10 versus a 5.3 gulley with a 5.10 eliminate variation.
Maybe you're right that advanced players recognize that any situation can have a few pieces added to increase the sense of urgency, so it's frivolous stuff on the board that distracts from the pith of the problem. But I still like seeing it there.
And I'll keep trying your problems however you decide to make them :)
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Mar 15, 2011 - 04:19pm PT
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BG2.. didn't see that haha.. Thanks Pat, for the problem. And thanks JSB for posting the board.
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jsb
Trad climber
Bay area
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Mar 15, 2011 - 06:03pm PT
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Pat, these problems keep getting better and better! I like how the last one slowly unraveled to me as I started to understand the predicament better. I don't know how the hell you came up with it. :)
I have to agree that it's not really about difficulty... it's more about how inventive or clever the problems are. Actually, in my opinion, there doesn't even exist a 2-mate problem that can be considered "hard," and if the above problems were boulders they'd be about V2 - doable by someone who has practiced a bit, but seemingly impossible to a layman.
You should compile these into a book!
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 15, 2011 - 08:37pm PT
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No problem should have anything there that
has no purpose. Usually everything serves some
purpose, even if but merely to prevent a cook (alternate
solution).
I have composed about four hundred problems and have
put them into a little book unpublished. Six or seven
of my problems have been in grandmaster columns. I had
a group of them published once in the student paper
of the University of Colorado... Just tons of time
"wasted," sort of. But it made me a stronger player,
ultimately, as I often found some problem-esque move,
the hidden move (as is the title of my little book).
Ready for another?
Here is another three or four minute problem:
white pieces:
pawns at c6 and e6
knights at b2 and f2
rooks at c4 and e4
bishop at g6
queen at d8
king at a6
black pieces:
pawns at c5, d6, d7, e5
king at d5
white to move and mate in two
themes
Think of it this way, if you don't like black being outnumbered.
He has played for time and has ten minutes left on his clock.
Though he is hopelessly lost, if he can stall, well white has
only two minutes on his clock.... So white has to pull out a
miracle.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 15, 2011 - 08:44pm PT
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jsb, yes there are some really difficult mates in two. Some
of the old classical composers were masterful at creating
problems... But in general you're right. An expert can see
the solution usually in a matter of minutes. There was a big
problem competition once at the University of Colorado. About
sixty people showed up to compete, and I was more or less
just starting chess. I had been working with Eugene Salome,
the former chess champion of Germany and who played with
Bobby Fischer on the Manhatten Chess Club. He invited me
to compete, and to everyone's surprise, mine most of all,
I won first prize. That was when I became interested in
problems.
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marv
Mountain climber
Bay Area
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Mar 15, 2011 - 11:25pm PT
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given the size of the strategy space, one can make a two-move mate problem arbitrarily hard.
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