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Enty
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 5, 2011 - 03:28pm PT
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How poor does your bottom anchor need to be before you consider using a screamer?
Or should you put one into the system everytime - even with nice big bolts?
Cheers
E
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Enty
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2011 - 04:06pm PT
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At your bottom anchor - before leading off.
Your rope is fixed and some people use a screamer to reduce the shock load on the anchor if you fall. Just wondering if it's worth it when the belay is bomber i.e. a couple of good bolts.
E
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Johnny K.
climber
Southern,California
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Maybe if you wanted to be super cautious on some slim pieces to use a screamer,but on some bolts?No.They will hold up fine,just equalize properly for the upward pull.
Ideally if its gear,3 solid pieces for upward pull and one solid piece for downward.If its bolts(proper rawl etc)Two bolts is more than enough with one equalization master point for upward pull.By all means use a screamer if you want.
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Enty
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2011 - 04:11pm PT
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Cool. That's what I thought.
I'm not actually planning on going up hill with a shitty anchor anyway!
E
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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If you fall shortly after leaving the anchor while soloing, you will have no partner belaying you to absorb some of the fall. The force onto the anchor could be quite severe and a Screamer would help mitigate some of that force.
I'd rather be better safe than sorry, eh?
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Prod
Trad climber
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I agree with Mark.
He taught me a lot of what I know though.
Prod.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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What mark said. Also, rig things so you haul bag also acts to absorb the fall (unless you are using a system where the bag is hanging on a fifi-hook, but that is a different story). Be careful that if you put a draw on an anchor bot as you leave the station that it is long enough to allow the screamer to deploy without jamming up against it.
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Levy
Big Wall climber
So Cal
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What Moof said. Use your haulbag to absorb some of the upwards pull if you whip.
Oh yeah,......
Yer gonna die!
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Enty
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2011 - 04:15am PT
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Thanks for the answers. Just as I thought really.
Cheers
E
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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If the belay isn't totally bomber beef it up.
Using the haulbag as a damper is good, but ultimately it is all about anchor strength.
Oh yeah, and as a variant to the usual, if you solo walls,....
yer gonna LIVE!
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aaronjones
Social climber
ditch
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use a screamer on bomber bolts. it doesn't keep the anchor from ripping it keeps you from getting beat up in the fall...
took a 40 footer onto the anchor while short fixed speed climbing the trip with ivo, no screamer. it felt like getting hit by a f-ing truck. took half hour to get the clove undone...
lesson-use a screamer
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Factor 2 fall?
Yeah that'll give you a jerk.
(You can pre-empt the tight knot by slipping the end of a short piece of rope into the knot THAT DOES NOT HAVE A BIG FUSED BALL OF MELTED PERLON ON THE END. That way, after the knot is overly tightened, one can just yank out the end and the knot is loosened.
I learned this quickly when I had mules and used bits of retired rope to tie them up.
A mule can pull a knot tighter than you would believe possible!)
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Johnny K.
climber
Southern,California
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Coming from a guy with a busted face,haha. Do whatever you feel comfortable(use a screamer or dont,regardless know how to setup your haul system in accordance with your lead setup),just dont end up looking like Matt Thomsen above hahaha.
Btw piton rons way is awesome.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
bay area, ca
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Embarrassed ad hominem defensive deflection fail.
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Slabby D
Trad climber
B'ham WA
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I do a fair bit of soloing (but clearly not as much as some of these monkeys), generally day trips up IVs and Vs which means I don't have a huge haulbag to counterweight with. After considering the physics of it all I a) try really hard not to fall right off the anchor b) don't backclean off the anchor c) use a good thick rope with a lower than average impact rating d) build a sturdy anchor oriented inline with the expected force e) clovehitch the first piece to a screamer (this 1- keeps the anchor oriented and 2- will result in a lower force on the piece should you fall on it f) clip the next several pieces with screamers regardless of how bomber they are and g) even though you don't fight ropedrag runner the rope so it runs cleanly to the anchor.
Couple thoughts
A screamer on piece will do a lot more to reduce overall forces on everything than a screamer on the anchor due to friction across biners.
IMO once you're 25-30' out a screamer is a bit redundant as your rope is a much larger and efficent shock reducer presuming it runs cleanly to the anchor.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aaron,
Was that the fall where you hurt your shoulder? What happened?
How's the bod these days? See you in the spring?
Cheers,
Pete
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Which is better for a safer, softer catch: a screamer or your pig (assuming you have a pretty heavy one)?
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Captain...or Skully
climber
The Seas of Stone.
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Think of it this way, Melissa. You can use the bag many times.
Screamer, 1 time(if you pop it).
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Johnny K.
climber
Southern,California
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Matt why the hostility lol ? No harm done,with a profile picture like that you cant help but get jabs thrown at ya :P .I am not trying to give BAD advice,Just giving info on what i know works and has worked for many others,we are all still here.
Do you use screamers on bolted anchors ALWAYS?I am not disagreeing with mark,pete or anyone else.I am just stating my info and contributing to this thread,you can communicate back and forth,there is no right or wrong,it comes down to what works best for YOU.Thats why this forum is here?
Read what I said in my very first post.Use a screamer or don't.You dont NEED to though.That is all up to YOU.
The bottom line is,screamers werent around always.Many people still solo aid without screamers and old school gear.People know how to minimize impact by using their hauling system and climbing rope setups properly.
Personally i dont have an assortment of screamers to just spare.I use a clove hitch,not a gri gri etc etc.I personally dont use a screamer at a bolted anchor(by all means use one if you want, if you have them).I will use a screamer on a sketchy piece or a gear anchor if its less than ideal.
If you have an assortment of gear,sure put a screamer on the anchor as mark said.I am not saying any way is wrong,but at a solid bolted anchor,if you have your setup properly rigged,you can use that screamer somewhere else rather than on the anchor.No you dont NEED the screamer,but if you want it there,go ahead by all means.In my experience there is more than enough energy absorbed by the lead rope and the haul system to take a good fall without a screamer attached straight to a bolted anchor and not feel like you hit a wall of bricks at 100mph.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
bay area, ca
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"Matt why the hostility lol ?"
Didn't you start out by referring to his injuries as a reason to disregard his comment? Following something like that with "haha" doesn't negate the fact of the attack.
I don't have a horse in this race but it seemed odd to call out a person for being hostile when it was in response to something said by you that could have easily been interpreted as passive aggressive.
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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F*#k it all, as long as the beer and bong are safe you are set!
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Johnny K.
climber
Southern,California
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hahaa
Jtree take a bong rip with bringmedeath,relax.:)
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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I incorporate a screamer into every belay when soloing. It's part of my standard setup.
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Johnny K.
climber
Southern,California
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Matt no worries man.No harm done,all in good communication.We can agree to disagree and have our own opinions.(It would be a boring place if everyone thought and did everything the same way).As long as the rigging is safe and you enjoy(or sometimes dont enjoy) the climb,thats all that matters.
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Like a lot of guys I´m rope soloing without a haulbag because I´m just bolting routes from below. I just arrange the belay set-up so that the rope runs through a Munter on the first bolt with a couple of metres slack and then the rucksack with all the spare sh#t, about 10gs is the weight to aim for.
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xtrmecat
Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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I rarely use a screamer at the anchor. It really depends on the start and gear at the start of the next pitch, if it looks like it can rip easily, then out comes a screamer.
Burly Bob
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Knuckles
Trad climber
Everett, Wa
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I would think the Screamer blowing would also reduce the load on whatever gear you were falling onto. It's not just about whether or not your anchor is good or making the impact on you more gentle, it's also about avoiding the "second" fall of gear that could/should hold a fall blowing. A screamer on the original anchor ought to help with that.
One actualy might argue that there's no better place for a screamer if you only had one.
Like some others had mentioned, I also incorporate a screamer into my soloing anchor. You're soloing afterall and there's no one to call in the rescue for you. Best to avoid it altogether. I've got too many people that I'm accountable to.
Clearly the answer is to not ride a bike in Yosemite and buy 20 screamers.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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I took a 25 footer factor two onto two (or maybe three?) bolts on Leaning Tower. Had a screamer in the sytem (no belayer and no haul bag) and it blew all but the last two tacs. I for one was glad it was there - though the bolts surely would have held anyway. ha
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Using the haulbag as a damper is good, but ultimately it is all about anchor strength. Interesting idea. Not clear to me how to best rig it. You probably want to have a backup anchor on the bag.
(originally I thought this was a troll. Silly me)
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Knuckles
Trad climber
Everett, Wa
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You build your anchor as normal, throw an alpine butterfly on the rope a couple feet up from the anchor, clip that to your pig, with or without a screamer. Here's a thread that might seem familiar debating the merits of doing just that:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1431135
Make sure your pig is weighting the lead line and that the pig tether is long enough to allow for the pig to be pulled up. Something like that anyways. Probably half a dozen ways to rig it.
Oh and you're gunnna die.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I don't aid solo much, but I do free rope-solo quite a bit and if I have any questions at all about an anchor I throw an old Air Voyager in the mix similarly clipping it to one side of the anchor and to an alpine butterfly about three feet up the rope. Other times I don't bother; all case-by-case from my perspective.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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There are any number of ways to do this safely and correctly. If you're about to get into Factor 2 situation, think about hanging your pig a fair ways below the anchors, possibly from a separate spare hunk of climbing rope. Or incorporate your lead rope into the system. You can't use too many Screamers, especially down low in the system.
"I took a 25 footer factor two onto two (or maybe three?) bolts on Leaning Tower. Had a screamer in the sytem (no belayer and no haul bag) and it blew all but the last two tacs. I for one was glad it was there - though the bolts surely would have held anyway. ha"
Hmmm - this doesn't add up arithmetically. Even a ten-foot fall will usually fully deploy a Screamer. Such a long high-factor wall would certainly generate huge forces sufficient to fully deploy any fall arrester [although I prefer John Yates' Screamers above all else].
Leaning Tower, eh? I'm guessing this would have been the bottom of the 6th pitch? I don't like that bit. How did it feel when you hit the end of the rope? The bolts are going to hold, I'm just wondering how your body held up?
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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ha, yea, bottom of 6th. 5.7 free climbing. My silent partner jammed up on me, and while I was dicking with it I unexpectedly popped off. Hit the end of the rope before I even knew what happened. No sudden shock that I noticed so I think the (yates) screamer did pretty well. As to all the stiches ripping, I wouldn't know about that. Isn't it 600 lbs for each bar tac? that's a lot of absorbtion in one screamer.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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5.7 my middle-aged retired-from-free-climbing lard-ass!
Didja finish the route? How long did it take ya? Gonna be around this spring? What about you and Jason getting on something?
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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"Did I finish the route?", I never back off (unless I'm with Jason - lol). Yea, we'll probably be up there some time in May or June. An injury shut us down on half dome last year, so we got to make amends on that one.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Mike, I'll be down May 7th and on. Stop into Upper pines and say hi. Bunch of Oregon guys, you might even know Andrew from PSU.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Melissa, the pig is softer. It will act more like the weight of a normal belayer.
Using the pig also means you don't have to worry about keeping your anchor rig tensioned upsidown for upward pull. If your anchor chord is long enough and the pig is near your bodyweight then it probly won't even pull the anchor all the way up.
You can also virtually eliminate the chance of a factor 2 fall to the anchor by lowering the pig down enough and using the anchor bolt as your effective first piece in the pitch. This could be a huge benefit on harder climbs with runout hooking or freeclimbing, or thin nuts or heads...whatever right off the belay.
I've taken several solo falls onto my pig, it's as soft a catch as any belayer. (I fell on the last roof pitch or Wet Denim and the bag did pull all the way up to the bolts but the shock load on the anchor was pretty minimal. ...that was a spooky fall over a lot of air!) I have also taken a few falls onto screamers from a ways up the pitch and the screamer didn't even deploy. If you have enough rope out the screamer is basically irrelevant. Really the screamer is for when you are still close to the belay.
If I have the pig rigged well and there isn't really hard off the belay I'd probly save that extra screamer for farther up the pitch. But I use the Screamer if you are short fixing or don't have a pig, imho. Oh, and don't fall on the anchor like Arron did... ;) Thats the thing about short fixing, most of the time you are out of the gear you need to rig super perfect anchors, sometimes you are lucky to have two biners and one extra locker and rig the rabbit ears 8 for your anchor and go...
Dumbest thing I ever did soloing was clove the bolt that is right at the Nipple, then fell about 10 feet above it. Luckily it wasn't a factor 2 since the piece I fell onto held, but it still knocked the wind out of me, and I nearly had to cut the rope in half to get the clove out. So yeah, don't clove your lead rope to pieces in the pitch!!!
When tying off the lead line to the Screamer I like to use that fancy 8 where the tails come out opposite ends, rather then the clove. I'm forgetting what it's called. Werner said cloves can break if slammed hard enough on the rock, and since Werner has pretty much seen everything, I'll take his good word for it....and re-quote him every time it comes up again.
Last thing I'll say is there is a ton of info on this forum on soloing. Look for the posters who've logged the miles. Mike., Pete, Mark H, Aaron, Nico, Bobo ,Ammon, Alex...pretty much any of the stone monkeys. And they all may have differing, but equally sound opinions on every single detail of soloing based on hundreds of different experiences. And, there's also bunch of wanna-be wallers in these forums who think they know it all...buyer beware.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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here's one of my old shots from my Zod trip in August. sorry the pic is over exposed.
I was rapping the hauline after leading the pitch above Zorro. My lead line is green. You can see it stacking on the ledge. This was before I used methods for keeping the rope from going slack down at the belay.
I'm not sold on this method but it worked on that wall even through a couple falls. You can see I have a long blue sling connecting the power point to the pig docked below on the last lead bolt of the previous pitch. One thing I'd do differently here is use a separate biner for the haulbag connection to the powerpoint so the powerpoint biners can't get crossloaded.
Most of the time I wouldn't leave my ledge out like that at the belay either. It's risky that the wind will pick up and whip it around in your ropes and anchor. But in this case it was a wicked heat wave in August in the most stagnant dead air. A slight breeze didn't even pick up until like 3pm. I cooked some brain cells on that wall...lol
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Texplorer
Trad climber
Sacramento
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The leader must not fall. Seriously, if your asking this kind of question you probably shouldn't be on routes where there aren't beefy bolt anchors which won't require a counter-weighted pig or screamer if equalized. Even one piece off the anchor will drastically reduce forces upon it in a fall.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Concur on everything Lambone writes above. [ahem]
Really good explanation, Matt.
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