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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 13, 2006 - 11:32pm PT
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Did Serenity and Sons today with some bros. (first pitch very slimy but doable) They talked to a guy at Reeds named Zach the day before who said he was the guy who chopped the pro bolt on the Serenity 1st pitch. Guess he lives and works in Groveland.
BTW (I got a .75 in the wet scar by the ex-bolt that seemed fine but my friend said that bolt saved another friend's life)
But this isn't about Serenity.
Zach told my partners that his next project was chopping the anchor bolts on Central Pillar because, after all, it's possible to top out on that route. (sort of anyway, and god knows when the last time that happened was)
But anyway, my friends seemed convinced that he was serious about doing it. Just thought I'd put it in front of the community to see what the opinions were and maybe some friends of Zach will be able to share the views expressed so we don't damage the rock needlessly.
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 13, 2006 - 11:44pm PT
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I see Zack almost every day most mornings in the cafe for coffee.
I will kick his ass tomorrow and tell him it's a present from Karl.
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akclimber
Trad climber
Eagle River, AK
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Jan 13, 2006 - 11:46pm PT
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Sounds like some a-hole named Zach needs to get his butt kicked and I volunteer to do it. Getting a bit tired of bolt cops screwing things up.
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lucho
Gym climber
San Franpsycho
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Jan 13, 2006 - 11:50pm PT
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Dude he lives in the valley and you dont ok thats that. I got Z-tons back he's my homie. Plus you're all the way in Alaska what the hell do you care.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
on a rock or mountain out west
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Jan 13, 2006 - 11:57pm PT
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He's a fu-cktard if he tries that.
Will be fun to see how things go on Serenity w/o that bolt. Without that bolt on P1 of Serenity, that's going to cut down on the traffic BIG TIME on that route. Which I guess is good. And will also lead to more injuries on it. Which is bad. Done it enough times I really don't care about that one anymore.
But WTF, leave CPF the hell alone. That route's just great the way it is. If it's the Zack I know, yeah, he's a nice guy. And hopefully not dumb enough to do something like this.
Actually, fu-cktard is kind of lame. That word's old. I like sucktard better.
Zack's a sucktard if he tries to chop Central Pillar's anchors. If he does, a mean old does of rockfall karma's got his name all over it. But personally, I'd like to see him and Werner go mano y mano over it. That I'd pay to watch. I think the butter knife will win.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 14, 2006 - 12:06am PT
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While ideas like "Ass Kicking" certainly entered my first emotional response, I'm not advocating that.
Best not to jump to conclusions, talk to Zach to make sure he's not just rattling cages.
Then try to involve him in a community dialog so that bolts that need to stay stay, unnecessary ones go, and we don't go back and forth on the rest as much.
I don't think the Serenity Bolt needed chopping but it's not the end of the world that it's gone. A .75 camalot seems bomber there. Still, hope nobody gets hurt cause I know lots of folks who have whipped on the bolt that ain't there no more.
But Central Pillar is a different story. It would be pretty Taliban to take the most popular route of it's grade in the valley and turn it into an obscurity.
Which, of course, wouldn't happen, It would just lead to rock damage as the bolts would be back in a week and the culprit would have to watch his back.
Fortunately, this seems like an avoidable problem
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 14, 2006 - 12:10am PT
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Zack will not listen, but maybe the cafeteria butter knives may have some effect when I approach him tomorrow, unless of course he's hiding at coilers.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Jan 14, 2006 - 12:40am PT
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Seems a pretty lame idea; and what is the point? And exactly how many people have actually done the route to Powell-Reed Ledges? (next to no one). Yes, you could do 2 more pitches (not that great) and then traverse/escape to Kor-Beck and rap that route. Pretty poor alternatives.
Karl has the real bead on this. It must be the most popular route of its grade in the Valley. The bolts will quickly re-appear (no matter how many time they are chopped) and only the rock will suffer.
Perhaps someone should direct their efforts to more productive pursuits.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Jan 14, 2006 - 12:54am PT
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“Sounds like some a-hole named Zach needs to get his butt kicked and I volunteer to do it. Getting a bit tired of bolt cops screwing things up.”
Hahahahahahahaaaaaha aaaa Ha ha ha…..
Really? And who you be, AK? You've never said... Do you know Zach? I bet not.
Seem to recall that Zack popped Gabe (of all people) in the face at one of the Coiler Fests because he was so wasted that he mistook good fun and games for an assault on his well-being. Of course, Gabe was himself - well-mannered and not even phased. But the McNeely brothers will never let a good bit of fun go to waste, so our friend Zack got what was coming to him the next morning… while he was suffering from a gnarly hangover... The brothers McNeely, being the clever monkeys that they are, grabbed some old ratty climbing rope from the shop, wrapped it around one of Zack’s ankles (like there was much opposition…) and then proceeded to haul (like a good wall climber…) Zack up into the tree that once sheltered his hangover haven. Hanged him, they did! And then tied ‘em off and left the boy dangling there as we all laughed hysterically!!! Oh, what fun…
But seriously, Zack’s a feisty kid, and I would think twice before engaging him in a brawl. But then again, AK, I know you’re not thinking…
Uhhhh, did someone say “chopping”? Has the community been consulted???
-Bryan
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NinjaChimp
climber
Davis, CA
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Jan 14, 2006 - 02:48am PT
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Sounds like Zach hasn't thought this one through. If his ideal is have routes with as little human-induced rock damage, pulling bolts on a trade route is not the way to go. Like Karl said, they'll be back up there in a week, seems self defeating to me. I'll be there on Sunday, if I knew how to find Zach I'd be happy to have a civilized chat with him about it.
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briand
Trad climber
bay area
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Jan 14, 2006 - 03:04am PT
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Why!!
What is his rational for this. Just because you can top out. Very selfish. Might as well chop all bolts in the Valley.
I don't see any reason for this. As stated above, they will just be replaced. I'd rather have nice solid bolts as anchors than mixed fixed gear with a rats nest of webbing.
I thought these bolt wars were behing us.
As a climbing community, there needs to be better communication on issues like this. Having radicals chopping bolts, etc. could compromise access in the future.
Brian
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Jan 14, 2006 - 11:51am PT
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Are we sure it's this kid Zack who's committed/is planning these acts? Sounds like a my friend's sister's boyfriend saw Zack at 31 Flavors thing.
I vote no.
Paging Dr. Breedlove...
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poop*ghost
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Jan 14, 2006 - 12:09pm PT
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I'm pretty sure this is the zack that I hung out with a bit last winter. Skinny tall kid with short dark hair?
I remember him threatening to chop cookie monster back then... I think he really like questioning status quo. Don't get this kid started about eating meat.
Jason
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Jobee
Social climber
El Portal
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Jan 14, 2006 - 12:33pm PT
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Met Z. yesterday up at Reeds. He had his mini.
Pehaps he's trying to start a little con-tro! Trollin..indeed!
In his first sentence to me he mentioned "you" Werner, Go Gett'm!!
jw
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1096
Social climber
hell
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Jan 14, 2006 - 12:45pm PT
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Zach and his buddy Ben are the ones who removed the bolt on SC. They also were going to steal Ron Kauks fixed line off New Dimensions a couple of weeks ago. Ron had a line there for 1 week to mini-track. Ron is smart enough to know not to put the line there on weekends or busy times. Ron was at the base getting ready to climb when he saw Zach and Ben climbing something up and right of New D. They then came down to the top of New D and started talking about how this rope should not be here and that they should remove it and the anchors. Ron could hear this whole conversation and after listening awhile yelled up at them to leave his rope alone.
These guys can not even climb New D so why would this rope bother them? Who put them in charge to dictate how others should climb? Why do these self appointed prophets/dictators think that they are the only ones who are right?
I think the valley rangers will be very interested in their lifstyle (bandit camping, etc)
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Jan 14, 2006 - 01:23pm PT
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I would be fine with chopping all the bolts on Central. What I would like, is a series of rap anchors to the left side of the route so that you don't have to rap through parties to get down.
There is already an anchor to the left of the route, just under the lip that is at the same height as the second belay of the route (rapping to this anchor saves your rope from getting caught in the roof crack when you pull the ropes from the third belay). This anchor is a double rope rap from the ground.
There is also a higher anchor (around the height of the fourth belay?) that is part of a bolted route that breaks off from the Bircheff-Williams.
To have a separate, double rope rap route, it would only take one more anchor to complete.
But if the point behind the chopping is to make people top out and walk off it aint gonna happen. You can always come down the BW.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 14, 2006 - 01:41pm PT
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You can already rap with double ropes from the top of pitch 5 and not use Central pillar anchors. The first rap goes to the newish bolted face route out left. Much better for the parties on Central Pillar to rap out left.
Cental Pillar can be a zoo of people. They don't always make it to the top, sometimes because of all the people above them, or because it rains or whatever. Removing bolts would do nothing to improve the situation on the route however.
PEace
Karl
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Nor Cal
Trad climber
San Mateo
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Jan 14, 2006 - 02:02pm PT
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Well I am one of Karl’s bro's that was talking to Zach at the Reeds area. When we walked up to Lunatic Zach was talking to Kauk and Kauk was telling Zach that there are other opinions than his, their conversation was civil but did not seem too friendly. Zach was talking about wanting to remove some fixed lines from New Dimensions; he also claimed to be the Serenity bolt chopper.
I was not present during the Central Pillar conversation (I was hack sawing a stuck cam out of Lunatic, there is still one more to remove in the upper crux, that was too deep to get out with the tools I had, I'll return with more tools, but the stuck cam that was about 1/2 way up in the back of the wide section is gone now). Any how Zach told my partner Jim that he wanted to butcher Central Pillar since it went to the top and that is the way it should be climbed.
I really don’t get his attitude, while he was friendly to us his attitude was caustic, he did not think my partner should be leading Lunatic since it is at his upper ability of climbing. He said he has only been coming to the Valley for a few years, yet he thinks he can pull bolts where ever he wants to remove them because it is his opinion.
It seems these issues on bolts should be a consensus of the climbing community and not a single climber’s opinion who has only been climbing in the Valley for a few years.
I dont know if Zach is serious or if he was trying to get a reaction from Jim/us. I guess after we told Karl, he is getting his reaction.
August, as I recall the route can be rapped from the top anchor and then down to the left with out using any of the routes anchors except for the top of the 5th pitch. Also why chop the bolted anchors and then add more rap bolts? I say leave it as it is.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jan 14, 2006 - 02:08pm PT
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lmao... Werner, that's some funny-ass she-it.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jan 14, 2006 - 02:21pm PT
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Didn't we go through this argument about the Kor Beck and Space Babble last June: "A Peaceful Proposal" I think that Karl and Ben Wah were the main players. http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=75957 - msg76004
I don't think I know of anyone who has topped out on any of the routes between the Kor Beck and Paradise Lost. I rapped off on everyone I ever climbed--leaving two pieces of gear and new slings at every rap. Dale and I rapped off the Kor Beck after we finished the 'Chicken Sh#t Traverse' on the CPoF. And, I would be willing to bet that Jim, John, and Billy rapped off from the bottom of the U-shaped bowl on the FFA of the straight up finish.
Any way, I don't see the logic of removing rappel anchors because you 'can' top out. You can top out on Glacier Point Apron, the North Face Apron on Middle and many of the routes at the base of El Cap if you put your mind to it.
It doesn't sound like anyone climbs the pitches above the fifth, so what is the point?
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 14, 2006 - 02:34pm PT
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So let us not just think only of ourselves, this is a very popular highly traveled climb. Probably ranks up there as the top 10 busiest climb during the peak season.
Selfishness and false pride and a sense of prima dona may over take our normally coherent selves.
Routes like this, Central pillar of Frenzy, should be left alone from such incoherent self importance. We should make a more concentrated effort chopping the anchors of our false sense of understanding that tie us down to our real freedoms.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jan 14, 2006 - 02:59pm PT
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The climbing above where the normal CP traverses off left--that's some really prime rock, with thre or four great pitches up to the U-Shaped bowl. Amazes me that more folks never push on to the Bowl, but bail after 5 or 7 pitches.
JL
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 14, 2006 - 03:14pm PT
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People chop bolts for numbers of reasons. Some noble, some mad, some inbetween.
Some may chop bolts to be "Important" since they don't send hard enough to be high profile otherwise. Some may replace bolts to be important too, or at least feel like they are contributing to the community somehow.
I don't know Zach, but when I hear about chopping one of the most popular trade routes in the valley, I start to suspect it's really public service.
Peace
karl
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jan 14, 2006 - 03:22pm PT
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Sounds like he wants to dictate how everyone else climbs. Chopping popular routes, insisting people top out, telling NorCal's buddy he shouldn't be leading Lunatic.
Lame.
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James
Social climber
My Subconcious
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Jan 14, 2006 - 04:34pm PT
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The number of people who place bolts far out those who chop them. Greg Barnes or Nanook's latest rebolting projects aren't newsworthy yet removal of unneeded bolts is? Removing bolts in a clean fashion is a public service.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jan 14, 2006 - 04:38pm PT
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Hey John, the reason that nobody climbs those pitches above the traverse off is that you whacked the 'free' root to its death-- At least that's the way I remember it.
TL,C--Roger
BTW, did you you, Jim and Billy climb up to the Kat walk or rap off?
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jan 14, 2006 - 05:01pm PT
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Hey James, I am not trying to pick on you, but I think that your comment mixes up some important distinctions.
Replacing old bolts is not the same as adding new ones. (Figuring out which are the original bolts is sometimes very hard--Greg is very careful, even if others are not--and if someone screws it up the first time it can be almost impossible to figure it out.)
Adding bolted belay stations and bolted rap stations on popular routes with heavy traffic is not the same as adding bolts to the middle of hard aid pitches or turning a trad climb into a sport route.
After fifty years of bolt chopping--the first I am aware of (by reading Roper, since I am permanently 26) is the Lost Arrow in 1956. Bolts come and go based on making these distinctions, even if it is often a close call or disputed.
There are a lot of issues with merit to argue about, but over simplifying it doesn't address the reasons that placing and removing bolts is so problematic.
Oh, Happy New Year. How the recovery going?
Best, Roger
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ThomasKeefer
Trad climber
Monterey, CA
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Jan 14, 2006 - 05:09pm PT
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If you look around on rc.com, it is easy to find the stories of the mad chopper from Connecticut. Things have happened back an forth in this on going saga of this dick chopping entire areas in New England because he had decided years back that CT would remain bolt free forever and then people put bolts where needed who were from out of state. This dude travelled to that persons state (normally sections of RI or Mass) and systematically chopped entire areas. People out there pass around info about this guys car and photos of him and they give him a roughin up every once in a while. In fact, once this dude returned from some of his 'community service project' to find a line of bolts drilled right through the hood of his car! Funny stuff.
Chopping bolts on valley trade routes is really borderline vandalism. The routes were established the way that they were for a reason- or perhaps they became what they are for a reason. The climbing on most of those routes is amazing but it is equally amazing on obscurities as well. If you want to avoid bolts and the like I would also assume that you want to avoid people crowding 'your crag'. To remove bolts from trade routes is f*#king yourself over since by doing so, you will remove 'tourons in your park' from sticking to those routes and leaving the rest of 'your park' for yourself.
BTW, was not the tattle taling approach taken to remove PTPP after his little incident a few years back....??? Despite what my mom told me when I was three, perhaps there is some merit to it.
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Hurricane
Trad climber
Eldorado Springs
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Jan 14, 2006 - 05:37pm PT
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I've done Serenity/Sons of Yesterday a few times and with so many crowds wanting to do the route it saves a lot of time and hassle to have the those nice carabiner style bolts at the belays. All the belays could be natural but how many parties would actually contiunue on to the summit via Ahwahnee Buttress? I guess I see the same thing with Central Pillar. Most people do the the first five and come down. Sure, it can easily done all natural, but if you chop the bolts it probably would mean people fixing some other nuts, pins, slings, and other assorted mank at the belay spots. I am for leaving things as natural as possible, but since the classic climbs in Yosemite are such a freakin zoo, you might as well leave it be because these routes are climbed so much, they will just be rebolted or left with other mank at the belays in the future. Anyhow, that's my $0.02, Cheers, A.K.
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Jy
Trad climber
California
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Jan 14, 2006 - 05:58pm PT
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It seems a waste to chop that first bolt on serenity. That being said the chopping of bolts seems to rarely be consensus based, and that leaves it in the realm of the individual. I am all for leaving a route in the original style it was climbed in. But on serenity, a piton scarred crack, was the bolt really that invasive, as much as Id like to say that I prefer to do a route in good style I kind of liked the bolt anyways.... It seems that onn popular routes where bolt anchors can help to reduce the impacted nature of a climb it would be a pity to chop them. Somebody ought to chat with Zach about this.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jan 14, 2006 - 06:26pm PT
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{Lifting my long grey beard up from the keyboard}
I climbed Serenity Crack in 1983, long before I entered Free Climbing Retirement. I recall it to be a straight-in pin-scarred crack where a piece of pro would be available virtually every move of the way.
Why pray tell would there be a bolt on the first pitch?
Just askin', eh?
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 14, 2006 - 06:28pm PT
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Just had some coffee with Zack at the cafe, and no he's not the guy in Blitzos photo. He told me to tell you internet wankers to get a fricken life, hahahaha.
No seriously, he was just trolling those guys at Reeds. He won't be chopping any bolts on Central pillar of Frenzy.
Over and out ..........
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phoolish
Boulder climber
Athens, Ga.
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Jan 14, 2006 - 06:31pm PT
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If it is indeed the Zach that popped a McNeely then got himself tree-hauled, then I know the guy. We used to hang out at the Terrace employee kitchen when I worked the coffee corner two years ago. His parents live about a quarter mile from my mom's house in Lilburn, Ga.
Anyway, he's a cool kid, if kindy pretentious and cocky. Plus, with any drink in him, he's a bit out of control. I talked to him the day after the tree-hanging business, and, sometime between the punch and the lynching, he got mad and threw his car keys somewhere. He still didn't have them a few days later. I wonder what he did about that.
He'd probably listen to reason about the bolts, at least if someone was there to say "Hey! I'm using these!" Left to himself, he seemed a little unstable.
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briand
Trad climber
bay area
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Jan 14, 2006 - 07:03pm PT
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We are also talking about safety. On popular routes like these, there is no reason not to have safe, permentant anchors.
I remember when SC used to have old 1/4 bolts and pins for anchors and was happy to see them replaced.
brian
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Nor Cal
Trad climber
San Mateo
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Jan 14, 2006 - 08:16pm PT
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I am not suprised that we were being trolled by him, my buddy Jim is fairly new to the scene and would be easily trolled, like I said I did not hear the central pillar part of the conversation and just took Jim's word (after all he is my buddy)and of course we mentioned it to Karl as we saw him the next day, so here we are.
Thanks goes to Werner for getting to the bottom of this....
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Jan 14, 2006 - 08:20pm PT
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Cool, Thanks, Werner.
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Jobee
Social climber
El Portal
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Jan 15, 2006 - 11:13am PT
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Well lads,
Interesting debate..glad to hear Mr.Z. has some of his sharper tools still in the shed.
Half of harm that is done in this world
Is due to people who want to feel important. -t.s.elliot
jw
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Jan 15, 2006 - 11:59am PT
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I cannot help but to tender a response to the post made by 1096
Your post, 1096 (and you are a poltroon for telling stories about people without posting under your real name) is almost completely untrue.
1)I had nothing to do with chopping Serenity Crack.
2)I had never any intention of stealing Ron's or anyone's rope.
3)Ron's rope had been up for more than a week-ask him.
4)Nobody did any yelling--Ron saw us climbing from the road, and hiked up to the base where we talked.
5)Zak and I discussed removing the rope before we saw that it was not an abandoned line like so many other lines that mini-traxioners abandon throughout the park. When we saw that the anchor was made with cams (which no-one would abandon) we decided to leave it in place.
6) the reason I would toss a fixed line is because on numerous crags throughout the park people are fixing lines on one-pitch climbs so they can mini traxion, and then leaving them up sometimes for over a year. This is impact which affects all climbers negatively, since the Tool had a thing about abandoned gear, and I believe we as climbers need to leave as little trace as possible so that we don't have to suffer more regulation at the hands of the Tool. I have no problem with mini-traxioning, but I am offended by there being lines fixed indefinitely on stuff while they become rattier and rattier, making the whole place look like a ghetto, which we as climbers cannot afford to let happen.
7) there was a time when I could get up New D, but whether I can or not is not the issue; the issue is (as above) the impact of unsightly fixed gear at the crags.
I forgive you for your lies, Alias 1096, and hope you will excercise more caution in future before running your keyboard.
Ben Zartman
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Jobee
Social climber
El Portal
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Jan 15, 2006 - 12:15pm PT
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Ben W:
Way to clean up the jingus gossip as well as the junk some of lazier tractioners leave behind.
Best senario: set up, traction, clean it, and go just like any other roped climbing.
No doubt you would float The N.D...if your'e interested next sunny dry day give me jingle...love to get up there with you.
jobee1
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 15, 2006 - 01:32pm PT
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My ropes will be everywhere, beware ..... and I'm very lazy too.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Jan 15, 2006 - 02:30pm PT
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I wasn't in favor of chopping of the bolts, I'm just saying it wouldn't force me to top out and there are preferable ways to get down without rapping the route. And yes, you would have to leave something behind at belay 5 (if the bolts were gone). And yes, there are a lot of reasons why parties don't make it to pitch 5.
From Karl:
"You can already rap with double ropes from the top of pitch 5 and not use Central pillar anchors. The first rap goes to the newish bolted face route out right. Much better for the parties on Central Pillar to rap out left."
Route out right? Is this as you are facing down? Or is there something else that is west (downriver)?
It is true that you can get down without using the Central Pillar anchors, but you end up on the BW. The BW isn't the zoo that CP is, but if you ever try the BW it is a pain to have climbers coming down on you who didn't even go up that route. One more bolted anchor on the face would mean you could easily get down without interfering with any route and the ropes would pull very nicely. Or has there already been some change since the last time I did this route a few years ago?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 15, 2006 - 02:39pm PT
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I'll have to edit that post. Somehow I confuse "Right" and "Left" (no politics intended) and I meant out left.
It is possible to rap from the bolts under the roof 200 feet from the ground. It seems like those would be accessible from the bolts on the little ledge two or three pitches up BW. I don't have the topo down at the cabin.
Nice post Ben. Clears up misunderstandings, straightforward and with a name.
It helps clear things up andI don't think ropes should be left hanging for weeks either.
Peace
Karl
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1096
Social climber
hell
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Jan 15, 2006 - 06:32pm PT
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Ben Zartman
Ah hit a nerve eh? You tell a different story from what Ron said. He said you were talking about taking his ropes and gear while he watching you and that you 2 were VERY AGRO towards him?
All I can say is that people like you suck thinking you own the cliffs and have the right to remove gear, bolts, ropes or whatever. Leave stuff ALONE!
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Jan 15, 2006 - 07:06pm PT
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1096:
Again too craven to give a name?
Sure Ron heard us discussing whether to take the rope down; the acoustics at Arch are something else in that you can hear people talking from the road, but you cannot hear your partner on the pitch. Its a pretty neat phenomenon. But I digress.
Though we discussed taking it down, we never discussed taking the rope away-I would have left it coiled at the base where its owner could have found it.
He was a little steamed up, but no one ever got agro: I think you are exaggerating again. We had what I thought was a pretty frank discussion about fixed lines and added bolts (he was kind of grumpy that someone had chopped 'Coffin Nail' just recently), and parted on friendly terms.
Perhaps you should ask Ron himself his side of the story, instead of repeating the third- or fourth-hand version you seem to have.
Since you bring it up, I have no wish to dictate how people climb, but I have every wish to keep my right to climb intact. That is why I agitate for less climber impact at the crags. No one can disagree that lessening visual impact and cleaning up after ourselves can only be a good thing.
Regards,
Ben
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jan 15, 2006 - 07:42pm PT
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Hey Ben, help a guy out. What is agro??? I am confused: Agro-cultural, agro-pastoral, agro-ecological, Agro-processing--isn't ND all cleaned out by now?
Really my real name: Roger Breedlove
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jan 15, 2006 - 11:10pm PT
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I remember doing Serenity in the early 70s with Kauk, who followed the crux pitch in bare feet. No sh#t. I remember us both thinking the thing was a pinned-out junker even back then, so it vexes me that folks are so invested in that route.
On the other hand, Central Pillar is mint, probably because from the very start it was protected with nuts. Chopping stuff on that route is plain silly, since there's so much traffic on it and the bolts make all that rapping easier and safer.
Way off topic, but the five-pitch corner just right of Central Pillar also goes free at tough 5.11, with an all time, 120 foot fingertip lyback on the 2nd lead. But I think it's all overgrown now. Always meant to try and force that route all the way to the top (from the blocky ledge it shares with CP atop pitch 5), but never go round to it. That's a project I suggest to those who are living in the Trench and want something new and interesting to do. the undercling/roof just off the bolcky ledge ain't gonna be easy . . .
JL
JL
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Jan 15, 2006 - 11:51pm PT
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Roger:
It is a shortened form of 'agressive'
I'm betting you knew that
All the best,
Ben
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 16, 2006 - 12:13am PT
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Hey joe mini-traxion
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jan 16, 2006 - 12:24am PT
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So Werner, is that do-hickey used to self belay so one can run laps on a route?
Ben, aggressive crossed my mind, but I searched Gooooooogle and the hypenated words in my list are the only things that came up. As you can tell, I don't get out much.
John, I always figured that the Chouinard Pratt route was dirt filled. It is the main drainage for the u-shaped bowl. I am surprised that you could get up the lower pitches at all.
Roger
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 16, 2006 - 12:35am PT
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No they take them down, and they are not tight. They hang
Off season in the winter on a few select routes we do laps to stay in shape.
What shape do you have?
I don't want to free solo all those routes I used to do. I have to live too.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 16, 2006 - 12:54am PT
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I'm in shape
Round is a shape
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Jan 16, 2006 - 01:55am PT
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Karl, that was awesome.
-Kate.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Jan 16, 2006 - 06:09am PT
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Poolish(sp?) - Sorry to inform you that Zack Martin, from Georgia, was killed in a car wreck a few years back, hopefully there's another Zack. Also noticed you're in Athens. Great little city, grew up there.
On another note, the so called AKclimber is nothing more than a f*#king poser! Please DO NOT let his post influence you view of Alaskan climbers, he's not one. Just another wanker.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 16, 2006 - 07:27am PT
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[Warning: Momentary Thread Drift]
ThomasKeefer: "...because he had decided years back that CT would remain bolt free forever and then people put bolts where needed who were from out of state."
I'm in no way going to defend Ken's past or recent attacks in Western Mass, but the above statement is entirely without merit. CT's tradition was always trad and no "people put bolts where needed" because no bolts were needed and they were repeatedly warned. Every bolt war has two sides and while I don't support either his reactions or a great deal of his personal behavior, I get way sick of everyone laying the NE bolt wars solely on Ken. He was very much provoked over time before exploding in the original bolt war. Much of his behavior during and after that war was unfortunate in the extreme, but it was in no way unprovoked. Unfortunately, I have exhausted all means I had of attempting to contact Ken regarding his rationale, if any, for this current round of chopping which, given his total silence, appears to have simply been an unprovoked reminder. But nevertheless, ThomasKeefer, you should stick to commenting on things you actually know something about in the future...
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jan 16, 2006 - 08:53am PT
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Karl's shape quip has an antecedent here in ST land.
In a thread titled "Ape Index Registry," dated 7 March 2003, Brutus of Wyde responded:
Minus 15.
wingspan compared to circumference.
Brutus (of Wyde)
"I'm in shape. Round is a shape."
I don't know if his was the first, since Brutus places it is quotes, but it is just as funny now.
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Darnell
Big Wall climber
Chicago
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Jan 16, 2006 - 11:08am PT
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It's not time to replace the bolt on serenity,it'stime to chop the bolt on Texas flake.
Well, not chop but pull out, I tried to pull it last summer but I did not have a big enough hex wrench to pull that euro crap.
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Jobee
Social climber
El Portal
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Jan 16, 2006 - 11:14am PT
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Hey Werner!
Thanks for the spelling correction..Icoud'ntreedthaboxweneyebotit!
Ron sure would get a kick outta all this squakin!
See you at the Cookie..
..Nice thread Ba Ba.
jw
Can't we all just get along?!!
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 16, 2006 - 12:26pm PT
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"Can't we all just get along?!!"
No no first we must have war, then when dinner comes we eat and get along.
Then back to war .....
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DanaB
climber
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Jan 16, 2006 - 12:34pm PT
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"Can't we all just get along?"
No, we can't.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 16, 2006 - 12:45pm PT
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The "round is a shape" quote might just be some universal truth, but unfortunately my girlfriend takes credit for thinking it up
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Jan 16, 2006 - 01:16pm PT
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From Karl
"It is possible to rap from the bolts under the roof 200 feet from the ground. It seems like those would be accessible from the bolts on the little ledge two or three pitches up BW. I don't have the topo down at the cabin."
From the bolted anchors on the sport route right of BW (these anchors are about the same height as the 4 belay on CP), you cannot get to the anchors just under the roof with two 60's. I tried and came up short.
Once you swing around the corner into BW, I think it would be hard to get back out of the corner onto the main face to get to the anchors under the roof. Been a while since I've been there, but I remember that corner being pretty big.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 16, 2006 - 01:30pm PT
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The bolts on the little ledge on the BW corner are the previous station of the bolted route and not a part of the original BW anchors. They are not on the main face but rather halfway out the dihedral. I don't think it would be a problem to rap from there to the ones below the roof.
The beauty is, you can see if somebody's working the first pitch of BW from those anchors so you'll know whether you need to stay out of their way or just rap BW.
Peace
Karl
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poop*ghost
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Jan 16, 2006 - 03:52pm PT
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Largo - I had the pleasure of talking with Allen Steck a few years back and I asked him what his favorite Yosemite route was...
without thinking twice he said "Serenity Crack"
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jan 16, 2006 - 03:55pm PT
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I think that Sons of Yesterday is a big bonus for Serenity Crack. I think it's even better than Serenity Crack. Largo, had that route been established the last time that you climbed Serenity?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 16, 2006 - 04:16pm PT
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It was sweet man. We were climbing in our shirtsleeves while looking down on snow in Curry village. Next day the place gets dumped on and there's still ice on the wires outside my house.
I agree, Son's makes Serenity a double classic.
Whuupps. Dont forget kids. It's a death route now and you should stay away when I want to climb it. The first 60 feet the crack is totally wet too.
Bye now
Karl
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sawin
climber
So., CA.
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Apr 28, 2008 - 06:35pm PT
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Werner I know iv'e mentioned the azz kickings though
I have never took part in the style wars.
I really don't mind if the chicken bolt is here,
Copyright © Chris McNamara
and I admit i'll probably use it, hoping to climb in the valley again.
Been 20 years since I've been on the pillar however I thought
there was pre-set webbings and I also used my own anchors
(webbings)? I don't remember any drilled, though I have not
been past 7 and the bolt between Kor Beck was probably placed
in style on lead? Either way both routes I rappelled for the descents.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 28, 2008 - 06:36pm PT
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You bumped for that?! Bored, dude?
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Apr 28, 2008 - 06:53pm PT
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I have an idea. Send Zack down to Josh and have him chop all the unnecessary bolts and chains that have sprouted to save lazy folk the effort of downclimbing an 80 foot crag.
First target: the chains at the top of Poodles are People Too.
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sawin
climber
So., CA.
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Apr 28, 2008 - 06:56pm PT
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First target: the chains at the top of Poodles are People Too.
What? I probably agree. Can't they go up white lightning and TR?
I don't think I remember chains there or a need with a walk off?
Back to Middle Cathedral. The 1'st 5 pitches are the classics.
May not be worth while to do the full climb possibly @ grade 5.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 28, 2008 - 07:27pm PT
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Matt had some lame post in there, Karl, which has since been deleted. That was the bump.
Cheers.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Apr 28, 2008 - 07:34pm PT
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I did The Central Pillar to the top in the mid '80's with a guy I met in the Camp 4 parking lot. His name, best I can recall is Mike Loeffler and he was then in the business of making Gore Tex hats. Called himself the mad hatter...
Anyway the climbing becomes more serious after the place where most folks rap.
Leave the rap anchors.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2008 - 07:38pm PT
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Central Pillar has been rap friendly since I started climbing it in 1980.
It's true that many of the anchor were fixed pins but heh, aren't we beyond considering rusty pins to be superior permanent rap anchors to bolts yet?
Particularly in a route that sees several ascents every day
peace
karl
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 28, 2008 - 07:46pm PT
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Yes, your's is the only link in the thread pointing to the Serenity thread, Karl. I just commented cause Matt posted some lame one-liner, that didn't mean anything in the thread, didn't link to the other thread, etc. and then erased the post. What did that have to do with you? You posted after our posts. I don't get what you're after?
So, since I'm here... Sure. Did CPF last year and rapped down onto BW to check that out, as we'd been wanting to do that. Will do it again this year and probably do BW, as well. The route is always busy, yadda, yadda, yadda... I'd say leave the anchors due to the traffic on the route. That seems like the most logical choice.
Oh yeah, and I REALLY enjoyed reading about a guy getting a line of bolts in the hood of his car. hahaha Sounds like he probably deserved it and it was clever.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2008 - 08:16pm PT
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Hi Nefarious
in the course of those deleted posts and multitasking, I misunderstood what you were saying to me and to the thread. Sorry. I'l just delete the posts referenced to that.
Peace
karl
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 28, 2008 - 08:21pm PT
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But would it be lead-chopped, or rap-chopped?
More seriously, if you sat at the bottom and polled climbers as they started the climb, 99.99999% of them would say to leave the rappel anchors. Likewise if you polled everyone who's ever done the climb, including those who did the first ascent.
The first time I did it, in the mid 1970s, there were the usual rusty fixed pins and messy slings for rappelling. The last time I did it, in 2004, I was glad to see they'd been upgraded. Though I guess rockfall damage will always be a concern there.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 28, 2008 - 08:27pm PT
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" But would it be lead-chopped, or rap-chopped? "
That's a good question... IS there a consensus on this? With all of the "chop talk" going on lately... I'm of the frame of mind that if someone can't do the climb, they shouldn't even be thinking about chopping the route. If you can't climb it legit, then leave it the f*#k alone, basically.
I sat and re-read this whole thing, and noticed that whoever this Zach character was, he didn't even come close to having the credentials to be chopping half the routes he was talking about.
So, is there a chopper's ethic?
Karl - No worries, dude. I was hoping you'd stop by and hang a bit Saturday night. Jeff said he ran into you. I had plenty of awesome wine for you!
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Apr 28, 2008 - 08:40pm PT
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Proxy Time !!!!
As a member of the climbing community, I hereby relinquish my vote on this matter to Zach and his buddy. Afterall, they live in or near the Valley which gives them much more right than I to
make the proper decision regarding anchor bolts on Central Pillar. If they want to chop the shite out of every offensive bolt on every trade route in Yosemite it's fine by me because they live in or near the Valley and they know what's best for all of us !!!!
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sawin
climber
So., CA.
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Apr 29, 2008 - 10:10pm PT
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Gordon did you ever find our film? I went back in the
90's a few times without photos or some maybe with x?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2008 - 11:43pm PT
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Nefarious wrote
"Karl - No worries, dude. I was hoping you'd stop by and hang a bit Saturday night. Jeff said he ran into you. I had plenty of awesome wine for you!"
I was there! I just had to leave around 8 for another obligation. Fatty cooked me a fish and gave me some Lettuce too (not the hippy kind)
next time
peace
karl
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climbrunride
Trad climber
Durango, CO
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Apr 30, 2008 - 12:06am PT
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I skipped a bunch of posts in the middle, so forgive me if this has already been said.
What is the psychology behind the phenomenon of people deciding to chop old, established stuff? Like Wharton with Maestri's route on Cerro Torre, or this Central Pillar of Frenzy example. Or heck, I guess it does not even have to be limited to old routes. Like Robbins with The Wall of the Early Morning Light or the new Half Dome route (I can't find its name).
Does it have something to do with us all saying out of one cheek that we must obey a rigid set of ethical standards, and out of the other cheek that climbing has no rules and we are free to do what we want? Maybe those who are unsure of themselves and have the most need to seek approval or recognition, are easily influenced by those who are the most fervantly outspoken. I'm not really sure, but it bugs the heck out of me.
I know that I certainly went through a phase, early in my climbing career, when I thought any route which I did not personally enjoy should be chopped. Does everyone experience that? Do we get past it when we develop confidence in ourselves and where we fit into the world?
BTW, how long was that bolt on Serenity Crack? I've climbed it several times, but it has been a few years. Was it a newer addition or has my memory just faded?
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jiimmy
Boulder climber
san diego
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Apr 30, 2008 - 12:35am PT
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Ban all climbing up there in the YO semite and youll not have all these silly things being said. Less destruction of the natural resources the better.. Can I still ride my Atv in the desert though????
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:39am PT
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Most people only do the first five. bottom line. Most people will always only do the first five. Bottom line. The bolts will reappear. Bottom line. Please do yourself and the rest of us a favor. Don't make more of a mess out of something that's already a mess. Maybe you should bring a big tube of concrete patch and try to fix up all the nasty pin scars while you're at it. That will look about as asthetic as the chopped bolts. Just my opinion.
Sean.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 30, 2008 - 03:10am PT
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"I was there! I just had to leave around 8 for another obligation. Fatty cooked me a fish and gave me some Lettuce too (not the hippy kind)
next time "
Bummer, dude! I must have *jsut* missed you! Next time, for sure!!!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 30, 2008 - 03:33am PT
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Note: Nobody chopped this Central Pillar bolts. This is an old thread that cropped back up when the Serenity crack 1st pitch bolt reappeared after having been chopped a few years back
peace
karl
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| Messages 1 - 85 of total 85 in this topic |
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