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MtnGearCEO
Trad climber
Spokane, wa
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 15, 2011 - 05:10pm PT
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Attention Climbers:
I’d like to alert you of a problem we found today with DMM Dragon Cams. Several DMM Dragon Cam #5 in our inventory have cracks in the aluminum axle boss. These are cracks radiating from where the stem lug is pressed into the aluminum and are visible from the top of the cam as well as the underside. This issue was identified and addressed in an earlier recall by DMM but was thought to be specific to the dragon Cam #6 only. Due to the similar manufacturing and material similarities in the #4 and #5, we would advise to stop all use of Dragon Cams #4 and #5 immediately until further notice. There is an image attached that is representative of our findings. We have not tested the "cracked or uncracked cams but would assume all to be suspect until further notice. The Cams smaller than #4 use a different material and we have not heard of any problems with them.
We are working with DMM and their US distributor – Excalibur to determine the scope of the problem but wanted to inform the climbing community as soon as possible of this potential safety issue. Please share this with friends who may have Dragon Cams in their racks. I expect DMM will post more information soon.
Paul Fish
Mountain Gear, Inc
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Feb 15, 2011 - 05:17pm PT
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Thanks for the heads up!
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Feb 15, 2011 - 05:18pm PT
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JINGUS!!!!
China is sitting pretty right now.
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Bad Acronym
climber
Little Death Hollow
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Feb 15, 2011 - 06:26pm PT
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Feck, maybe Donini will want my #5.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Feb 15, 2011 - 06:37pm PT
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Thanks for the heads up, Paul! I buy almost all my gear from you guys. Great service you guys provide.
Thanks!
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Feb 15, 2011 - 06:41pm PT
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Thanks Paul!
BTW, if you ever run across something like this again feel free to drop me a line.... I've been making an archive for gear warnings/recalls over on the Gear Recalls Page at TheClimbingLab.com as it strikes me odd that no one has bothered to put together a central repository for this sort of thing. I've gotten every one I've heard of in the past couple years, but if there's any others feel free to let me know (or register and add it yourself in a non-pimping-my-site kind of way; just looking to get the info out there and couldn't care less about page views).
-aric.
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matty
Trad climber
under the sea
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Feb 15, 2011 - 06:54pm PT
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Ha! Some people made a big stink about DMM being superior because they don't outsource to China...
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Feb 15, 2011 - 07:06pm PT
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Paul Fish at Mountain Gear was the one who really got the Colorado Custom Hardware (CCH) folks to look at their Alien issues when, based on a few internet reports of failures that the CCH company said were fallacious, he took some off of his shelf and had them tested out of his own pocket.
He still gets business from me due to this single thing. Thanks for that, thanks for this Paul.
DMM has an excellent track record and makes high quality products, unlike some of the Alien issues, this should be fixed and jumped on stat. I personally think the Camalot is a better cam (not just better for the money but just better), but that's me and neither here nor there. I still love everything else DMM makes.
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
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Feb 15, 2011 - 07:14pm PT
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I own a whole set of DMM(s). Sorry, didn't get the memo that I had to be a Limey.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Feb 15, 2011 - 07:23pm PT
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Anybody talk to Petro about this?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Feb 15, 2011 - 07:26pm PT
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Ha! Some people made a big stink about DMM being superior because they don't outsource to China...
I was one of those. I'll withhold judgement until they determine how this happend.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Feb 15, 2011 - 09:36pm PT
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He still gets business from me due to this single thing. Thanks for that, thanks for this Paul.
+1 on that. He had my business long before this, but this pretty much set it in stone.
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Feb 15, 2011 - 09:39pm PT
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Perhaps send some of these defective cams to Banquo for pull testing in the lab. He likes to break stuff.
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
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Feb 15, 2011 - 10:04pm PT
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Ha! Limeys and Greek climbers... Not bad since we actually do share a good sense of humor and a limited sense for self preservation. :)
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Khoi
climber
Vancouver, BC
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Feb 16, 2011 - 03:19pm PT
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DMM has posted an official announcement. For more details on the recall, and to see if your #4 and/or #5 Dragons are affected by the recall, go to their website.
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Bad Acronym
climber
Little Death Hollow
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Feb 16, 2011 - 04:11pm PT
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Gene, thanks for the link - looks like my #4 & #5 are headed back to Wales for some reassembly.
Thanks to Paul Fish for the vigilance, and DMM as well for addressing the defect so quickly. I have hung off this gear on multipitch belays, after all.
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland: what's not to love?
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Feb 16, 2011 - 06:24pm PT
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The people at DMM have to be asking themselves why one of their retailers was quicker to let us know about this than they were? It's not like ST.com is some backwater in the climbing community, is it? If you're DMM, why not take the time to put the word out in the obvious places as soon as you know about it?
For the health of their company - not to mention the health of their customers - shouldn't they be doing a full court press on this problem, including in the very least posting to the most obvious and relevant web sites? How much effort does that take? What consideration could come before customers' safety, especially when it lines up with your company's reputation?
This sounds accusatory, I know.
Thanks to the OP, big time - you've got my future business. Whatever DMM's thinking was, yours seems clear and focused.
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Gene
climber
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Feb 16, 2011 - 06:37pm PT
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The people at DMM have to be asking themselves why one of their retailers was quicker to let us know about this than they were?
Answer: 8 hour time difference.
Paul @ Mountain Gear gave us the warning at 2:10 p.m. yesterday. That’s after 10 p.m. in Wales. See OP. I assume that Paul didn't know about the issue more than a few hours before he posted.
Last night (15th Feb 2011) DMM received information from a U.S retailer regarding size 5 (Blue) Dragon Cams. From DMM Link: http://www.dmmclimbing.com/dragonrecall45.asp?l=en
Seems to me that Mountain Gear found the flaw, contacted DMM after DMM's business hours, and DMM addressed the issue immediately this morning.
Fast response all around! Appears to have been done in darn near real-time. Well done MG & DMM.
EDIT: Maybe we knew about it before DMM.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Feb 16, 2011 - 06:41pm PT
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That picture in the OP, of the defective cam is proof that QC at Dmm is as shotty as it was in CCH.
I don't see this sh#t with BD, even the *gasp* ones made in chinatown.
The fact they let cams like that slip by, then not be the first to mention publicly that there is a problem?
B. FUKING S.
They are in a full sprint, backwards right now.
You guys can keep the pasty fat women, and your busted ass dragon cams on that side of the pond.
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marv
Mountain climber
Bay Area
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Feb 16, 2011 - 07:37pm PT
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can anyone making the DMM-is-superior-for-not-outsourcing-to-China argument elaborate? I honestly don't get it. Is it patriotism? Rationality? Enlighten me.
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MtnGearCEO
Trad climber
Spokane, wa
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 16, 2011 - 07:42pm PT
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Hi all,
We all agree as users, manufacturers and retailers that defects in climbing gear are a serious matter. I really believe this issue with Dragon Cams is a case of everything working as it should once a problem is discovered. It was less than 24 hours from when we saw the first cracked piece to an appropriate response from the manufacturer. This includes the fact that DMM Wales was closed for the day at the time they were first notified of our findings. Only 2 of the #5 and none of the #4 Dragon Cams Mountain Gear had in stock showed signs of cracks and the rest looked fine. Given my understanding of the history of the #6 cam recall, these cracks probably occured after manufacturing and were likely not visible on a QC check.
As much as we like things to be perfect in climbing gear we also like it when it is cool, fast, light, new & improved and frankly we all like it cheaper too. It's hard to fault the manufacturer for addressing our wishes for bling and trying to remain competitive. I do not think any of the reputable manufacturers shortcut the safety side of things, sometimes things just don't quite turn out like they model on a computer or a sample run.
DMM Wales as well as Lisa and Steve at Excalibur have all been quick to get back to us and then respond with a very appropriate recall warning for all cams that might share this problem. This is not a case like CCH where the manufacturer was not responsive to our findings and we unilaterally pulled all the product from our stock and got the word out to the climbing community without the manufacturers help.
Climb Safe and I hope to see some of you at the Red Rock Rendezvous in March where we can engage in a civilized conversation of problems like this while sipping a pint of Fat Tire and celebrating the Access Funds 20th anniversary. (Forgive me for the blatant plug on Red Rocks).
Paul Fish
President
Mountain Gear, Inc
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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Feb 16, 2011 - 07:57pm PT
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Mtn Gear (my favorite store). DMM - still tops in general. I'll look things over carefully before I buy though.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Feb 16, 2011 - 07:59pm PT
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With regard to Chinese-made tools and hardware, I avaoid it entirely if possible. I've had countless automotive tools, electronics tools, and other metals just plain fail prematurely. Usually shearing.
I like the German, Swiss, and American made stuff. Better QC in the process of ensuring the proper alloys are used. Japanese are pretty good too.
Can this happen to DMM? Obviously! I wonder where there get their pre-fabbed metals from?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Feb 16, 2011 - 08:09pm PT
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My question to you, Bleuy, was why you would care if DMM opted to outsource it's cam manufacturing to China.
Didn't I just explain why? Sure they can do it, but when you go home they start cutting corners and diluting alloys.
Constant QC is required. Constant oversight.
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marv
Mountain climber
Bay Area
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Feb 16, 2011 - 08:15pm PT
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I insist that my cams be made by artisan Aryan purebreeds.
edit: artisan Aryan pure-bred women with big tits. Yes.
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tinker b
climber
the commonwealth
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Feb 16, 2011 - 08:30pm PT
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it seems like dmm handled this quick and responsibly, and mtn. gear seems way on it as well.
as far as why i opt to not buy things from china is due to ethics. when given the choice i buy things as local as i can. the less travel distance the lower the environmental impact.
when i can i buy things made in america because i know that for the most part the workers are treated well, by wage and conditions in the work place. i also know if i am supporting people in my community the economics in my area is stronger and my own economic situation is more stable. when the product i am looking for can not be sourced from the u.s. i look to buy things from countries who have systems in place to protect their workers and the environment.
i would not own a slave in my back yard or dump toxic waste on the land. nor would i give money to people to do that for me. i know that in some ways china is trying to improve this situation, but when i close my eyes and try to picture where a chinese product was produced i see dark crowded rooms in a large factory with smoke belching and a river of filth flowing. that's my two cents.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Feb 16, 2011 - 08:34pm PT
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Marv, or at least some half-bred Steelers or North Caroliners, before we almost destoyed that industry due to EPA and Global Warming schmucks.
Matt, see this thread. I used to have a pic of the failure. Sheared metal. Stanley tools used to be quality. As I said in the thread the screwdrivers are made in N.C. but the diagonal cutters were made in China. Obviosly inferior metals.
My Swiss and German made Xcelite tools hold up damn well. I think some Xcelite sh#t is made here too. Quality!
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=471733&tn=0
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hb81
climber
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Feb 16, 2011 - 08:40pm PT
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For the safety of all of our customers we are issuing an immediate recall for all Dragon Cams size 4 and 5 with turned axle bosses (see images below).
So are all the new ones turned instead of forged? Or are there different versions of the new cams?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Feb 16, 2011 - 08:44pm PT
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Bluey...
China meets the specs of it's clients.
Why would you object to DMM's outsourcing to China anyway?
It seems they might have produced a superior product and oversight.
Ugh....I'm done here. You fail to see my point.
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Khoi
climber
Vancouver, BC
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Feb 16, 2011 - 10:11pm PT
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I have yet to hear of quality problems with Black Diamond gear and Wild Country gear that was Made in China.
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msiddens
Trad climber
Mountain View
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Feb 16, 2011 - 11:52pm PT
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Agree- I'm not close to calling out DMM as another CCH. Their response remains impressive. I'd like to replace my 4 & 5 dragons. Mgear is thus far offering a refund which ia amazingly fair- I want the cams!
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strangeday
Social climber
The O.C. baby!!
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Feb 17, 2011 - 12:28am PT
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Thank you Paul. This is why I buy most of my gear from you guys. Great customer service, from nice people... It's not that hard.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Feb 17, 2011 - 01:38am PT
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I always love using the pieces of DMM gear I have. Feel like your handling the Rolls Royce of climbing gear. The new Belay Master is awesome, for all you soloists out there...
Another item of note in regards to DMM and high quality, they recently dropped prices on many of their items... go check 'em out.
Oh yeah, and Nomad carries them, but those guys are all tools anyway. Especially the fat guy with the afro, he sprays way too much on Supertopo.
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NigelSSI
Trad climber
BC
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Feb 18, 2011 - 01:18am PT
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Back to the front page.
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