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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 27, 2011 - 01:55pm PT
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Things are cooking in north Africa and I know something is coming up but I wonder who is behind it.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jan 27, 2011 - 02:02pm PT
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It's a secret Israeli sub that's behind it all. Just wait, Fatty will tell ya.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 27, 2011 - 02:18pm PT
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"The Economist" book review points out that digital revolution can work both ways:
Caught in the net
Why dictators are going digital
Jan 6th 2011 | from PRINT EDITION
The Net Delusion: The Dark Side of Internet Freedom. By Evgeny Morozov. PublicAffairs; 408 pages; $27.95. Published in Britain by Allen Lane as “The Net Delusion: How Not to Liberate the World”; £14.99.
WHEN thousands of young Iranians took to the streets in June 2009 to protest against the apparent rigging of the presidential election, much of the coverage in the Western media focused on the protesters’ use of Twitter, a microblogging service. “This would not happen without Twitter,” declared the Wall Street Journal. Andrew Sullivan, a prominent American-based blogger, also proclaimed Twitter to be “the critical tool for organising the resistance in Iran”. The New York Times said the demonstrations pitted “thugs firing bullets” against “protesters firing tweets”.
The idea that the internet was fomenting revolution and promoting democracy in Iran was just the latest example of the widely held belief that communications technology, and the internet in particular, is inherently pro-democratic. In this gleefully iconoclastic book, Evgeny Morozov takes a stand against this “cyber-utopian” view, arguing that the internet can be just as effective at sustaining authoritarian regimes. By assuming that the internet is always pro-democratic, he says, Western policymakers are operating with a “voluntary intellectual handicap” that makes it harder rather than easier to promote democracy.
He starts with the events in Iran, which illustrate his argument in microcosm. An investigation by Al-Jazeera, an international news network based in Qatar, could confirm only 60 active Twitter accounts in Tehran. Iranian bloggers who took part in the protests have since poured cold water on the “Twitter revolution” theory. But the American government’s endorsement of the theory, together with the State Department’s request that Twitter delay some planned maintenance that would have taken the service offline for a few crucial hours at the height of the unrest, prompted the Iranian authorities to crack down on social networks of all kinds. Iranians entering the country were, for example, looked up on Facebook to see if they had links to any known dissidents, thus achieving the very opposite of what American policymakers wanted.
The root of the problem, Mr Morozov argues, is that Western policymakers see an all-too-neat parallel with the role that radio propaganda and photocopiers may have played in undermining the Soviet Union. A native of Belarus, Mr Morozov (who has occasionally written for The Economist) says this oversimplification of history has led to the erroneous conclusion that promoting internet access and “internet freedom” will have a similar effect on authoritarian regimes today.
In fact, authoritarian regimes can use the internet, as well as greater access to other kinds of media, such as television, to their advantage. Allowing East Germans to watch American soap operas on West German television, for example, seems to have acted as a form of pacification that actually reduced people’s interest in politics. Surveys found that East Germans with access to Western television were less likely to express dissatisfaction with the regime. As one East German dissident lamented, “the whole people could leave the country and move to the West as a man at 8pm, via television.”
Mr Morozov catalogues many similar examples of the internet being used with similarly pacifying consequences today, as authoritarian regimes make an implicit deal with their populations: help yourselves to pirated films, silly video clips and online pornography, but stay away from politics. “The internet”, Mr Morozov argues, “has provided so many cheap and easily available entertainment fixes to those living under authoritarianism that it has become considerably harder to get people to care about politics at all.”
Social networks offer a cheaper and easier way to identify dissidents than other, more traditional forms of surveillance. Despite talk of a “dictator’s dilemma”, censorship technology is sophisticated enough to block politically sensitive material without impeding economic activity, as China’s example shows. The internet can be used to spread propaganda very effectively, which is why Hugo Chávez is on Twitter. The web can also be effective in supporting the government line, or at least casting doubt on critics’ position (China has an army of pro-government bloggers). Indeed, under regimes where nobody believes the official media, pro-government propaganda spread via the internet is actually perceived by many to be more credible by comparison.
Authoritarian governments are assumed to be clueless about the internet, but they often understand its political uses far better than their Western counterparts do, Mr Morozov suggests. His profiles in “The Net Delusion” of the Russian government’s young internet advisers are particularly illuminating. Previous technologies, including the telegraph, aircraft, radio and television, were also expected to bolster democracy, he observes, but they failed to live up to expectations. The proliferation of channels means that Americans watch less TV news than they did in the pre-cable era. And by endorsing Twitter, Facebook and Google as pro-democratic instruments, the American government has compromised their neutrality and encouraged authoritarian regimes to regard them as agents of its foreign policy.
So what does Mr Morozov propose instead of the current approach? He calls for “cyber-realism” to replace “cyber-utopianism”, making it clear that he believes that technology can indeed be used to promote democracy, provided it is done in the right way. But he presents little in the way of specific prescriptions, other than to stress the importance of considering the social and political context in which technology is deployed, rather than focusing on the characteristics of the technology itself, as internet gurus tend to. Every authoritarian regime is different, he argues, so it is implausible that the same approach will work in each case; detailed local knowledge is vital. Yet having done such a good job of knocking down his opponents’ arguments, it is a pity he does not have more concrete proposals to offer in their place.
With chapter titles and headings such as “Why the KGB wants you to join Facebook” and “Why Kierkegaard Hates Slacktivism” it is clear that Mr Morozov is enjoying himself (indeed, there may be a few more bad jokes than is strictly necessary). But the resulting book is not just unfailingly readable: it is also a provocative, enlightening and welcome riposte to the cyber-utopian worldview.
from PRINT EDITION | Books and Arts
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jan 27, 2011 - 02:30pm PT
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I haven't been following this. Sometimes it seems like the middle east is always having some problem or another. Probably because I lump them in all together when in reality they are a bunch of different tribes/countries.
Can someone give a synopsis of current things?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jan 27, 2011 - 02:41pm PT
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What an idiot....
Take a break, Fool....
you get more idiotic every day.
fatty may at times act follish and even idiotic........at times....
but AC you are always a A$$HOLE! we know why and you receive our sympathy. we know that you carry the burden of knowing that your mama didnt want you she thought you were a piece of sh#t...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 27, 2011 - 02:45pm PT
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I suspect this all makes for a lot of nervous clerics in Iran.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jan 27, 2011 - 02:46pm PT
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Ack.... could we leave off the name calling. I really would like some insights on this situation. We have a rare opportunity to hear from folks who live there or have family there. So ease up please.
I usually disagree with Jeff, but its good to hear what some folks think. It helps create a picture of all the things that are influencing these situations.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 27, 2011 - 02:49pm PT
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In this case I have to agree with Fattrad - the governments in Egypt and, until recently, Turkey have in large part been sitting fairly hard on the more fundamentalist-inclined elements in their respective societies. In the case of Turkey, 'democratic' processes have led to less-secular, more fundamentalist control over their government setting up tension with a secular military.
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
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Jan 27, 2011 - 02:49pm PT
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If Egypt goes, there goes the whole peninsula... Plus, Israel will lose it's favorite ally in the region, etc. This isn't going to be pretty.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 27, 2011 - 02:51pm PT
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That is correct and it should be noted that most of the 'philosophical' and twisted religious basis and foment for MidEast turmoil can be laid, as fattrad noted, at the feet of radical Egyptian clerics.
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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Jan 27, 2011 - 02:53pm PT
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Mubarak regime (not Egptian people)is a brought and paid ally of Israel controlling a border with the open air prison that is gaza. Paid for by billions of US taxpayer dollars.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 27, 2011 - 02:56pm PT
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Israel and Palestine probably don't make the top five or even top ten of real issues confronting the countries of the middle east, including Egypt, Tunisia and Turkey. (Neither Turkey nor Iran is Arabic.) The real issues are things like ineffective/incompetent/corrupt governments (although not Republican or neo-con), overpopulation and demographics (young populations & unemployment), history, excess resources wasted on the military, regional rivalries, water, environmental degradation, and so on.
Fundamentalist right-wingers may be gaining some influence, but only as one of the few plausible alternatives. Apart from pockets, most know that the fundamentalists aren't credible governments.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jan 27, 2011 - 03:35pm PT
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The real issues are things like ineffective/incompetent/corrupt governments (although not Republican or neo-con), overpopulation and demographics (young populations & unemployment), history, excess resources wasted on the military, regional rivalries, water, environmental degradation, and so on.
Kind of sounds like America.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jan 27, 2011 - 03:47pm PT
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Read me
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 27, 2011 - 03:53pm PT
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I prefer to think of this as people trying to regain their right to self-determination. As many others have said, they aren't agitating to be more pro-U.S. or pro-Western, but I think we've been too tolerant of dictators there because of a Chauvinism that Muslims are, well, "different."
We need to let them be real sovereign nations, but assist those who support democracy. People will never love us as long as we're the superpower, but I don't think we'll find propping up dictators there to be in our long-term best interest.
John
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 27, 2011 - 04:07pm PT
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"Beware of foreign entanglements." So why don't we Listen UP? George Washington said that 215 years ago, and he was a wise man. Of course George "said" it but the words were written for him by James Madison.
The middle East is a gigantic CAN OF FUKKING WORMS. I preach we keep our noses out, and our hands off...
I have always been big on self-determination. Why does the USA always manage to interfere on behalf of corrupt dictators, regardless of the "administration" here at home?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jan 27, 2011 - 04:19pm PT
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Okay so until now I have lived in blissful ignorance regarding Egypt's politics other than the general fact that they are our ally.
Folks here keep referring to Mubarak as a dictator. But the State Dept site I linked to upthread describes him as a powerful elected executive serving 6 year terms.
This Carnegie Endowment page covers the election process there and also has some in depth coverage of the current events there. It is really worth a look.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jan 27, 2011 - 04:38pm PT
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According to the Carnegie Endowment Mubarak is over 80 and in failing health. Also this is an election year, so the prospect of who will be his successor is on people's minds. It appears Mubarak has a son who he is grooming for the job.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 27, 2011 - 04:45pm PT
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Ok. The Carnegie Endowment is one of those "Internationalist Organizations" that is affiliated with the Council on Foreign Relations. You know...those guys who publish International Affairs? This group has been an eminence grise behind the corporatist-socialist block ever since W.W. I. These guys are very devious and specialize in fukking with governments--to their advantage.
To quote Franklin Delano Roosevelt, the master politician of all time, "In the arena of politics and international affairs, NOTHING happens by accident."
The old Romans asked the question when a member of the Senate died or was assassinated: "Que Bene?" Or, "who benefits."
Maybe I'm just viewing the world through feces colored glasses? But again, that's just me, I guess.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jan 27, 2011 - 04:51pm PT
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"In the arena of politics and international affairs, NOTHING happens by accident."
Who was he trying to kid with that whopper? Oh, that's right, us.
Planes crash. Ships sink. Assassins miss. Sh*t happens. The idea that nothing happens by accident is so utterly preposterous as to be insane.
Whatever you think about the Carnegie Foundation, there are some pretty good interviews on that site if you take the time to look.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 27, 2011 - 05:17pm PT
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The last President who actually served in the military in time of war was Bush I, USN. He flew a Grumman TBF Avenger torpedo bomber, and won the Navy Cross. The Navy Cross is the second highest decoration awarded, after the Medal of Honor. It's not a decoration given out lightly, and was not a political deal.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 27, 2011 - 05:22pm PT
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That's odd Ron. This is what Obama said in his speech.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 27, 2011 - 06:05pm PT
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DMT,
I have para-military experience and will be consigliere to Cantor. And my friend Don Nelson will be running the Pentagon.
The evil one
Name dropper.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jan 27, 2011 - 06:16pm PT
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Fatty, your post is another illustration why 'W" and the Neocons should be condemned for their idiotic adventurism in Iraq. Perhaps, if we had kept our eye on the ball (Afghanistan), that stoning wouldn't have occurred.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jan 27, 2011 - 06:22pm PT
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I think we need the draft and a tax hike ASAP. Obviously, we'll see neither.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 27, 2011 - 06:38pm PT
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Fattrad posted this whopper of disinformation.
The guy in Tunisia was actually quite benevolent, Fats, if you actually believe this you are more massively uninformed than I thought possible for an adult.
Tami is right this is about the roots of this unrest.
This is a clash of socio-economics.
And Fatty? Use that big breath to blow up your sheep.
Best line this year. Kudos TK.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jan 27, 2011 - 06:39pm PT
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Funny thing Tami, threads like this rarely stay on topic- hence their long life. Climbing threads, especially the good ones, stay on topic and experience an early demise- go figure.
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
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Jan 27, 2011 - 06:43pm PT
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Tami,
You are my hero!
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2011 - 08:08pm PT
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Dingus
we talk later and may be privately
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jan 27, 2011 - 08:37pm PT
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i may not agree with fatty but poor lil AC is making up for his neglected childhood when he didnt get to nurse on his moms tit til he was 16....
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corniss chopper
climber
not my real name
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Jan 27, 2011 - 08:42pm PT
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Turning off the water and electricity to the ordinary Egyptian will just
send more of them into the streets.
I'd bet US spy satellites will be watching the desert outside Cairo for bulldozers digging mass graves for all the dead detainees.
Try to look at the Cairo airport arrivals/departures ..zip..nothing
cairo-airport.com
http://www.cairo-airport.com/
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 27, 2011 - 08:50pm PT
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Foundation for Defense of Democracies
What pragmatic neocons call themselves these days. They're working on an replacement for their "everyone-loves-us-and-the-ME-just-needs-a-push-at-the-right-domino" theory. Who knew, instead of invading Afghanistan and Iraq they should have just invested in early versions of social media.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 27, 2011 - 08:50pm PT
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Sadat was killed for signing that treaty. One of those behind the killing went on to the first world trade center attack as well.
The nation of Egypt did not sign that treaty. Sadat did.
DMT
All the more reason to quell these savages who are protesting. All the more to support the secular Mubarak and tell the Muslim Brotherhood crowd to f*#k off or receive a round to the face.
I'm so tired of these f*#ks.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 27, 2011 - 08:56pm PT
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Oh, and those of you who want to go all nationalistic and stay out of their affairs? Good luck, it's too late. And it ain't because of Bush, Israel, Iraq, or Asscrapistan.
Look deeper and further.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 27, 2011 - 09:20pm PT
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Israel has signed peace treaties with Egypt (1979), Turkey (1991), India (1992), Jordan (1994), and Mauritania (1999). (India is one of the largest Muslim nations in the world.)
It has also had or has some official diplomatic relations with Tunisia, Morocco, Qatar, and Oman.
Under Israeli law, Lebanon, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and Yemen are enemy countries. (Strange that Iran wasn't on the list I found, although maybe it was only of Arab countries that are formal enemies of Israel.) Although it seems fairly clear that there are substantial unofficial/deniable relations with Saudi Arabia, at least.
Bush 1 knew how to handle a war, and he got stabbed in the back by his own party as a reward. And defeated in 1992 by that silly twit what's his name - no, not Clinton. The other one.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Jan 27, 2011 - 09:24pm PT
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Fatty- I have heard there exists people with your political mentality but I can't say as I have ever met one. I never realized you actually believed in all the puff you throw out. Fine line between humor and fright I am afraid.
Perhaps, via your friend Donald Nelson at the Defense Department you could provide us lads here on ST with the personal cell number of Donald Rumsfeld. I am sure there are a fair number of us on ST that would like to have a chat with the man.
Let me see, if I am correct the billions we give out yearly are in this order, with no surprise in the number one position:
Israel
Egypt
Pakistan
But there is always a little room for humor and I am reminded of what Golda Meir once said:
"Moses dragged us across the desert for 40 years to settle in the only place in the Middle East without oil."
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 27, 2011 - 09:29pm PT
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American diplomacy is an idiot's dream...
Couldn't have said it any better myself.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 27, 2011 - 09:32pm PT
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The Taliban are growing, or growing more brutal and barbaric???
It's a sh#t-stain on civility.
Possibly the only thing worse is the random violence and corruption of the tribal warlords we put back in power, ignoring the fact their rule was the only reason the Taliban were able to gain a foothold in the first place.
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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Jan 27, 2011 - 09:33pm PT
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"Let me see, if I am correct the billions we give out yearly are in this order, with no surprise in the number one position:
Israel
Egypt
Pakistan"
equally amazing is that we have to borrow the funds to make those aid payments.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 27, 2011 - 09:42pm PT
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A lot of bellyaching here and few solutions rendered forth, other than ignore it and walk away.
With North Africa, I may agree, but not Iran or Pakistan. The Saudis should go pound f*#king sand as we drill oil here until a better solution is found. Mexico could help us out too with all their citizens we tend to.
We need a leader with balls. And it could be a lady...
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Jan 27, 2011 - 09:46pm PT
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Majid- do you get any sense what Iran thinks of all this?
As far as I can tell from watching what happens, not listening to what we are supposed to hear, is that Iran is working to establish/re-establish itself as the regional heavy weight.
If it wasn't for the oil of the Saudis, the US and Iran share a lot of mutual interests these days.
So my question when I see events unfold in the region, is where does Iran stand. Chances are, the country has a stake in the issue. Every time.
Turkey is back as a major player these days too. I should learn more about this.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 27, 2011 - 09:54pm PT
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This describes you to a T.
You know damn well what my solutions are. Just easier to sling sh#t me I guess.
You got anything other than the epic easy, "pull out".
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jan 27, 2011 - 09:59pm PT
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You got anything other than the epic easy, "pull out".
pullin out is what yours and AC's daddy should of done....
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 27, 2011 - 10:09pm PT
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First of all, tell the Saudis to f*#k off and start drilling domestically. This gets us off OPEC, largely.
Tell the Saudis if they want our business, they play ball our way. No more Wahabbi mosques in every town, no more 'under the radar' rhetoric while they suck our oil soaked dicks.
Iran. Tell them if the U.N. doesn't have TOTAL WILLING FREE ACCESS to anything they want to inspect, WE BOMB YOU WITH MULTIPLE ROUNDS OF STEALTH DROPPED BUNKER BUSTERS. We know where the sites are at.
Pakistain. IF you fuktards can't reel-in your Western provinces, WE WILL, again with bunker busters, drones, and maybe a tactical nuke or 3.
Afghanistan. Take the handcuffs off our 'police force' there. Tell Karzai, a U.S. installed puppet, to SHUT THE F*#K UP!!!, or we'll take you out as fast as you were installed. WE ARE RUNNING THE OPS THERE. STFU!!!
The Russians would back us on this plan as long as we guaranteed only a small footprint in the aftermath.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 27, 2011 - 10:17pm PT
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What would you suggest, Dingus? A Foreign Legion-type militia?
You pose another stupid dilemma, like your frequent, "did you serve?", bullsh#t.
I'd be arrested instantly trying to cross Int'l boundaries with a militia. If that was even a though in my mind.
Why is your solution? Are you a 'pull-outer?" or change their whole dynamic?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 27, 2011 - 10:30pm PT
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Clearly, Bleuy missed his calling deliberately.
He could have enlisted 23 years ago, thereby saving us all...
Well that's kinda mean spirited if you're implying that I should've died in Nam. Weird.
But when I was of fine military age I hated the military and discipline. Now I don't, and see the wisdom of their program. I used to be a typical little college liberal punk. Then I woke up.
Now? I could join. I think I may have 2 more years that they'll accept me. But it isn't going to happen. Many reasons. Mostly, they don't need me. They need 4-star generals with sacks, unlike Mullen. He's a beauracratic pussy.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 27, 2011 - 10:35pm PT
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My solutions?
1. No foreign engagements without a formal declaration of war from Congress. Period. No police actions, no black ops, none of that sh#t. Wanna go to war? Make your case to Congress.
2. Cut the defense budget in half by axing the big budget cold war weapons systems and fire the dinosaurs that promote Maginot Line thinking.
3. Punish any company operating in the US that sends jobs overseas; heavily.
4. No more foreign military aid without a full declaration of war and a formal alliance treaty with the recipient nation.
5. Prohibit US arms merchants from doing business with other countries without #4.
6. Require the draft for all age eligible US citizens, men and women alike, with no college exemptions.
7. If the US goes to war every household participates in some way... yours included. And I don't mean taxes or victory gardens. I mean meaningful and direct support of the war effort. WE go to war we ALL go to war.
8. Stop supporting dictators who torture their citizens.
9. Re-institute the Geneva Conventions Bush so cowardly pushed aside.
10. Make Congress a part time job with a token salary. One aid per elected congressperson, and no more.
DMT
#1- Okay, so Afghanistan is cool, right?
#2- Hey Johnson, we don't just fight wars offensively! There is a reason we haven't been attacked by Superpowers in a while. Self Defense??? I disagree with you here, a strong defense...
#3- TOTALLY AGREE!!!!!!
#4- What? What do you mean?
#5- Okay. Maybe.
#6- Not bad. I kinda like that.
#7- More data required. But overall, I agree.
#8- Duh!
#9- Maybe, but your arguement may be flawed.
#10- Yessssss!!!!!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 27, 2011 - 10:47pm PT
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Well, blue, it's pretty clear you know very little about the military, current state of our or Iranian weaponry, tactical and strategic characteristics of warfare on the ground in the ME, understanding of the consequences of attempting to project military might outside of a comprehensive, and integrated, political, economic, and military framework. Probably pointless because of that to even bother touching on how all that relates to the base population demographics of the region.
In short, you still don't have even a basic understanding of why Iraq and Afghanistan have been such epic fails from a military perspective, or why they represent such a win for Iran and China.
P.S. And I'd suggest tackling the U.S. obesity epidemic before opening a new front in a mountainous Iran; or are you still operating under the illusion that anything of real lasting value and utility can accomplished from 30k feet.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 27, 2011 - 10:52pm PT
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A.C., he's a pussy beaurecrat, do you think he would listen if the mail got through???
There is a poison running through our gov't. And it doesn't serve us. It serves 'them'. You know what I mean.
This is why we need 'normal' people of communal respect to serve us. People who gave up good careers to make things better. People of sacrifice for this country.
Maybe I'll run. I'd be up against Mike f*#king Honda though...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 27, 2011 - 10:55pm PT
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Well, blue, it's pretty clear you know very little about the military, current state of our or Iranian weaponry, tactical and strategic characteristics of warfare on the ground in the ME, understanding of the consequences of attempting to project military might outside of a comprehensive, and integrated, political, economic, and military framework.
Maybe you could enlighten me, oh wise one? (I do know of the SA-300 systems).
In short, you still don't have even a basic understanding of why Iraq and Afghanistan have been such epic fails from a military perspective, or why they represent such a win for Iran and China.
What am I missing, master????
Study up.
Please do not try to insult me by implying ignorance. I find it offensive. We weren't f*#king talking about past wars or legality therin. So why bring that up? To try to make me look stupid and propel you to some kind of exaulted alter of historical perspective??? F*#k off with that!
I don't play games, I thought you knew this.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 27, 2011 - 10:57pm PT
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Dingus lists five US declarations of war. Although one (1941) was in response to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour (de facto declaration), and to the German's first having declared war on the US.
Wasn't Korea somehow approved by action of congress? Not an outright declaration of war, as it was nominally a UN police mission. But some sort of approval?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 27, 2011 - 11:05pm PT
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A.C., it's his lack of action that is troubling. And he should have been in full support of the F-22 project, especially in light of new Chinese developments.
Why didn't U.S. gunboats fire back at N. Korean location recently with ship-deployed cruise missiles??
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 27, 2011 - 11:16pm PT
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Nice way of providing to the dialogue, Matt. You only offer rebuttal without your solution/explanation. That must be an easy road to walk, hot-shot!
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2011 - 11:28pm PT
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[/url]
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 27, 2011 - 11:28pm PT
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I was 6 years old, Johnson. What's your stupid f*#king point??
You're turning into a crazy Dr.F before my eyes.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 27, 2011 - 11:33pm PT
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Hey Majid, I always asssumed you were Indian. Are you Pakistani or Persian???
Can you speak the language? Or read it?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 27, 2011 - 11:35pm PT
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Umm, they speak several different languages in each of Pakistan and Iran - and although Arabic is spoken in both, the main languages are Farsi (Iran) and Urdu and English (Pakistan).
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 27, 2011 - 11:39pm PT
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Look, Anders, I realize that, I don't need an arrogant Canadian to point this out to me. I was implying that maybe Majid had some foreign text he would like to share, from whatever dialect he can interpret.
The point is, you could have enlisted over two decades ago to fight the Muslims you despise so; yet when reminded of this simple fact, you accuse me of wishing you had died in Vietnam.
Yes, it is all my fault. I should have enlisted. All would be well now.
Damn it!!!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 27, 2011 - 11:49pm PT
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Yes, Jim - these things are often more complex than us westerners can imagine, whether it's Korea and the war there, or the bewildering ethnic, national, tribal, cultural and language diversity of south and southwest Asia. I mentioned Korea because it might have been a war where the US was authorized by congress to fight in, as required by the constitution, without a formal declaration of war. An oddity. The exceptions are often quite educational.
To take just one of many examples, the UN worked very well when the US led a (real) coalition to liberate Kuwait in 1990 - 91. Most of the good work of the UN and its affiliated agencies has nothing to do with diplomacy and war, though it performs an essential service there also.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 27, 2011 - 11:52pm PT
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De-fund the UN, bring our boyz home, and just send missiles.
They WILL get the message. AFter the second round....you betcha!
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jan 27, 2011 - 11:53pm PT
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I suspect that Majids language is Farsi Bluie and he's Iranian. The middle east is full of dictators (OK, so we bought and paid for them as in we sent over tax money from everyone and subsidized the gasoline for automobiles) Hosni Murbak has been in power for over 30 years. What does that alone tell you?
This most likely ain't gonna end well. It's said that the Egyptian gov't is shutting down the internet there to try and stem the tide. Should be an interesting thing to watch. My advice, buy a fuel efficient car and a nice bicycle. Majid, I realize you are Persian and not an Arab (I think, but this is only based on a few internet posts we've never met as far as I know) but I'd like to hear your view if you feel like sharing it.
Warm regards my brothers.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jan 27, 2011 - 11:58pm PT
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we could do it cheaper, shake the dust off the b-52s -we still have 500 lbers. They make wonderfull fish ponds a few years after....The place will turn lush from the newly developed water holes....Wheres John Pual Van when we need him!
You damn sure know your opinion would be better than this Majid?! (couldn't resist Ron! LOL...I mean, you're joking....right?)
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jan 28, 2011 - 12:00am PT
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Has to be tense for those folks over there. Murbak flew his family out to the US and safety, but the US has left all of our diplomatic personal over there....can't be too serious. Right?! I mean, they would know. Like we knew in 79? Right Majid? LOL!
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 28, 2011 - 12:02am PT
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Wind down our dependence on oil, responsbly withdraw most of our non humanitarian $$$ and military, and mostly pull out.
We've done a terrific job of promoting anti-Americanism and encouraging terrorism by promoting Americanism and fighting terrorism.
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dipper
climber
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Jan 28, 2011 - 12:11am PT
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Fattrad for president
Bluering for Sec Def
Crowley for.... help me out folks.
We have the makings of a 2014 dream-team.
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Douglas Rhiner
Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
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Jan 28, 2011 - 12:40am PT
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Of course you have DICK'S member, I mean number ........
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2011 - 01:31am PT
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bluering
I can eaisly blend-in and trust me, I have done it before during survival mode.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 28, 2011 - 02:17am PT
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Dingus, you should add absolutely no contractors in any combat, protective, or intelligence roles to insure proper war resourcing and to avoid the disincentives created by a two-tier hybrid military force.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 28, 2011 - 02:38am PT
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Please do not try to insult me by implying ignorance.
I'd have considered it, but then you posted this before I could:
De-fund the UN, bring our boyz home, and just send missiles.
Pretty hard to comply when you're blowing two out of three out your ass.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 28, 2011 - 02:50am PT
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P.S. If the U.S. really wanted to defuse Iranian nuclear ambitions and see democracy flourish throughout Iran with an attending waning of the clerics' influence we could do it off-the-shelf and a way cheaper than any military solution. We'd simply carpet bomb the country with a half million or so of these (with appropriate power adapters and a solar charger) and then sit back and write big monthly checks to AT&T:
Terrastar Satellite Smartphone
and not these
GBU-28 Bunker Buster
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Jan 28, 2011 - 03:47am PT
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Fatty-No thanks on his phone number, I'm waiting for the bear market on his cardiac condition. If ever there was a devil in Americaca, Dick would be the conduit.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 28, 2011 - 04:25am PT
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Conduit for the devil? Hell, that's can't be true. Why the official report said Dick was performing an exorcism on his friend with that 28--gauge. He's no friend of the devil.
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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Jan 28, 2011 - 08:24am PT
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hundreds of thousands now in streets. total internet shutdown now in egypt. also sms and cell blockage. jouralists have been targeted and assaulted by mubarak security thugs. opposition figure elbaradei reported detained and under arrest. many police clashes yet some police seem to be taking offuniforms and joining protest. this is the beginning of the end for mubarak, yet obama administration stands by their "man". hypocrits
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Tready
climber
Montana
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Jan 28, 2011 - 09:57am PT
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Heh. Yeah, looks like the sh#t has really hit the fan in Suez. Crazy.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Jan 28, 2011 - 10:18am PT
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OP "Things are cooking in north Africa and I know something is coming up but I wonder who is behind it."
 From what I hear it is the people who are behind it...
They want change, they are willing to do what it takes to change things in their lifetime... Now.... Rather than letting things be as they are.. they, the people, are taking their country.
When you consider the socio-economic spectrum of Egypt (rich/haves --> poor/have nots) and how many are just trying to stay alive with nothing.... (like America, 'cept dif'ernt) one might conclude that it had to happen....
My question is when will it happen here?
http://english.aljazeera.net/video/middleeast/2011/01/2011128142022398574.html#
Watching the video, I notice that it's not a one group, its not just youth... I see women, I see old, I see young....
Everyone is upset... they want equality, they want freedom
I can't see anything wrong with that
And it's happening all over the country.. not just centered in Cairo
Want to know how it all started... Don't look to fatty to give any clues... find out for youself
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47d6fyaOjRM
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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Jan 28, 2011 - 10:39am PT
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"meltdown" --In the media.
Thousands of journalists, desperate for a story, will make a mountain out of a mole hill.
It's a stew pot the azzholes of the world like to stir.
FIGHT IT - Be nice to everyone today and forever.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 28, 2011 - 11:25am PT
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Getting rid of Mubarek is long overdue.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 28, 2011 - 12:27pm PT
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Huge bonus - my 14 year old daughter watched it intently with me.
Had a similar experience a while back with one of my sons. He was probably 10 or 11 at the time, and sat down with my partner and I to watch a movie I hadn't seen for a long time. "Guns of Naverone". It's a WWII story, about the war as it was fought in the Eastern Mediterranean.
Twelve hundred British troops are trapped on an island off the coast of Turkey, and an even bigger German force is going to arrive in five days and wipe them out -- unless the Navy can get boats in to pick them up first. Problem is that the only approach to the Island is guarded by two giant guns mounted in a cave carved into a cliff high above the channel.
The only way to save the 1,200 is to somehow disable the guns, and after all other means fail, a small team of commandos is sent in to do the job.
Half-way through the film Ian (my son) said something like "I don't get it. Which ones are the good guys?"
To which we answered, almost in unison, "Ah, you finally get it."
Maybe Bluering would get something out of watching that film. If nothing else, it's a tremendous action film, with climbing even. Won Oscars back in 1961 or 1962. But it also is one of the finest war movies ever made, and leaves you asking questions that take you out of your comfort zone.
D
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 28, 2011 - 12:28pm PT
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So we should expect Egyptians to quietly put up with a few more decades of rampant poverty, corruption and poverty? That's not a recipe for sustainability.
And btw, Muslim Brotherhood is one of several groups involved in these protests.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 28, 2011 - 12:35pm PT
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When you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jan 28, 2011 - 12:43pm PT
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Half-way through the film Ian (my son) said something like "I don't get it. Which ones are the good guys?"
Ghost, after visiting Dachau, i have no doubts as to who were the good guys in WWII.
not everything can be solved through diplomacy and peace.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jan 28, 2011 - 12:45pm PT
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fatty is either mentally ill or a fine troll....i think he is a fine troll.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 28, 2011 - 01:07pm PT
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not everything can be solved through diplomacy and peace.
Absolutely true. But not everything can be solved with bullets and bombs, either.
Ending the horror that Dachau represents was unquestionably the right thing to do. That's an easy question to answer. But "Was firebombing Dresden the best way to do it?" is not so easy.
And if it was right to oppose a regime that put 6 million jews to death, why is it right not to oppose similarly genocidal regimes elsewhere? Why are polish jews more worthy of saving than Bhuddist Cambodians? (If indeed they were Bhuddist)
I guess my point is that simple, sound-bite answers usually don't help. "We're the good guys and they're the bad guys, so just nuke a few of their cities and that'll teach the f*#kers to mess with us," isn't likely to solve problems.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jan 28, 2011 - 01:15pm PT
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But "Was firebombing Dresden the best way to do it?" is not so easy.
good points ghost, i have wondered about that myself. on the other hand, without the killing of massive innocents we could end up like the current inneffectual war in Afghanistan. the sad thing is that it is always the innocents who suffer the most and not the leaders.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jan 28, 2011 - 01:33pm PT
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Fatty worships MOLOCH and is willing to sacrifice his children.
Send in the Marines.....
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2011 - 01:38pm PT
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Egypt is getting BBQed and Mubarak is in the underworld, cutting down SMS services, Cellphones, internet.......
Fatty
Are your boys behind it ?
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 28, 2011 - 02:17pm PT
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I really don't believe that any one else here will agree with my viewpoint on this topic, but here goes "nothing."
When we have a crisis within our own borders, our "media masters" at the behest of "their masters in D.C." emphasize anythingthat will divert attention from what they are doing.
What is the crisis? Impending National Bankruptcy. We saw our exalted leadership in Washington scurry to kiss the backsides of the visiting Chinese to keep the money flowing so we can further postpone the day or reckonning for another short while.
It's the old "watch my hand waving," and slap, we get it in the chops. It's all "smoke and mirrors" from the magicians in gubermint.
Bushclintionbushobamacheneygorepelosireiddole. They are the problem. We need to do some pulling back from all these horrendous foreign warsa nd manipulations. Fukk all of them. We need to get our own house in order and quit being "Big Brother" to the rest of the world.
Remember when Clinton had been impeached? What was the media doing then? Looking for Lorena Bobbitt's husband's dick. Wow! Not much of a loss, unless it's your dick. Figure skaters getting deliberately injured by competitors. Wow! Really important stuff. Smoke and mirrors.
Fukk Mubarek. Fukk Egypt, except for the poor bastards rioting in the strreets. Fukk Israel, let them handle their OWN crises, and quit expecting us to bail them out with more weapons of war and billions from our (now empty) treasury.
Here endeth my diatribe for the day.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Jan 28, 2011 - 02:18pm PT
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There ya go! At gunpoint! With a shotgun aimed at their faces!
You do not understand Fatrad's satire. How do you think Egypt was converted to Islam? Only they didn't have shotguns back then. They had swords.
"Convert or die."
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2011 - 02:18pm PT
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Fatty
Democratic gov in Egypt will open the door to Gaza. You sure Israel wants that?
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 28, 2011 - 02:27pm PT
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Fatty-
They never have admitted to having them! I still say "hands off" off this one! It's too hot to handle. We've got big problems here at home.
Now there is Internet sizzle over the admission by the State of Hawaii that there never has been a Barack Obama birth certificate. People have sent me stuff about a Kenyan birth certificate that's just surfaced. Yup. We got trouble right here in River City, to quote Robert Preston in "The Music man."
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 28, 2011 - 02:32pm PT
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Ron-
Ally? What the f%&k have they ever done for us other than raid the Treasury? Look at the Jonathan Pollard scandal, spying on their "ally."
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jan 28, 2011 - 02:37pm PT
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 28, 2011 - 02:40pm PT
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Fatty-
Most of the Defense intel newsleters I've seen is at least 100 warheads... But none of which are "admitted." (place tongue "in cheek.")
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 28, 2011 - 02:42pm PT
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Fatty;
Re: missle firing submarines; Did they actually buy them, or were they given to them? (hint: by US?)
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2011 - 02:47pm PT
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Egyptian military deploys in Cairo under curfew
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 28, 2011 - 02:51pm PT
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FatTrad: I know nothing. What prompted this unique instance of honesty?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Jan 28, 2011 - 02:56pm PT
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Conversions weren't required of either Christians or Jews; although the pagans took a beating.
Correct, they weren't supposed to require the conversions of Christians or Jews, although they were reduced to second class citizens, like blacks in the South before the civil rights movement. But in many of the areas conquered in the Jihad, the majority of the population was non-Christian and non-Jewish.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jan 28, 2011 - 02:57pm PT
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fatrad knows how to troll you guys....he does know something. plus, hey with all his name dropping he knows quite a few slimy individuals...
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jan 28, 2011 - 03:54pm PT
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So the White House press conference just ended. Fairly well played I'd say, keep the President at a distance and don't admit to any contacts with foreign leaders in the area. Do nothing to fan the flames.
We have to walk a very thin line right now.
No mention of the Suez Canal. I know there is a Canal Zone and an operating authority, but who actually owns it?
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 28, 2011 - 03:56pm PT
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Just think of all the Zionist state secrets we could learn about if only we could waterboard Jeff Elfont, CPA......
Like we really need a reason to waterboard Fatty.
(sorry fatty)
:-)
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 28, 2011 - 04:38pm PT
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Just returned here after doing a little internet surfing....
Here's a synopsis:
From the Christian Science Monitor: "Joe Biden says Mubarek, no Dictator, shouldn't resign..."
From AlJazeera on line: "Why won't Obama say the "D" word?" (Democracy!)
From www.Antiwar.com: Demonstrations with thousands in Jordan.
Senator Rand Paul (R) Kentucky; Stop all foreign aid, INCLUDING ISRAEL. Sorry, Fatty. He asked the question": Why should we be financing both sides in these upheavals...all with Chinese money?
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2011 - 04:38pm PT
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Yemen
next Saudi Arabia
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Jan 28, 2011 - 05:43pm PT
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Why, you may take the most gallant sailor, the most intrepid airman or the most audacious soldier, put them at a table together- what do you get? The sum of all fears. Winston Churchill,
True.
Why, you may take the most gallant sailor, the most intrepid airman or the most audacious soldier, put them at a table together- what do you get? The sum of all fears
Winston Churchill
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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Jan 28, 2011 - 05:58pm PT
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I try not to make any serious input on these political threads.
And I am probably not educated enough to be anything other than facetious.
During my one brief visit to Egypt was when I first learned about the 'Six day War'.
The event were recounted to me by my traveling partner, my father a WWII vet. He has (seemingly) always had a very open mind politically. When it comes to interpreting and responding to national and international political news I feel my father is close to Ding's comment. He (my dad) does not seem to act blindly or out of any unsubstantiated personal fears. He acts and rarely ever have I seen him react.
Ok, I am very uneducated and most of that education came from my father so maybe I am a bias ignoramus not worth the powder to... well you know.
From my internationally political ignorance:
I am with Fattrad:
We (the U.S) should not have intervened in the 'Six Day War'.
There would have been much more conflict and turmoil then, but in the long run..."
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2011 - 06:40pm PT
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Son of Mubarak has gone from Egypt and no one knows where about he is hiding
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 28, 2011 - 06:42pm PT
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Majid
I believe that two sons are involved; one has surfaced in England, but the other is ....missing? Or did I miss something that just happened?
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corniss chopper
climber
not my real name
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Jan 28, 2011 - 06:48pm PT
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Typical crowley copy and paste. No thought behind his posts to date. Start thinking for yourself. You have my permission to ignore your Liberal programming.
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Douglas Rhiner
Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
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Jan 28, 2011 - 07:05pm PT
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You'd probably enjoy him sucking your cornice off.
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corniss chopper
climber
not my real name
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Jan 28, 2011 - 07:14pm PT
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No Dougie. Prefer my woman do that. You go for AC's member by all means just like all you Muslim lovers do.\
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Douglas Rhiner
Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
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Jan 28, 2011 - 07:16pm PT
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You mean your favorite sheep you keep in your back yard?
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Jan 28, 2011 - 07:16pm PT
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Not only Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, Yemen, Algeria and Tunisia, demonstrations are taking place in a lot of different parts of the Middle East about different things and they are not all demonstrating about the same thing.
Russia went through it and saw their states breaking up into their own identities, President Reagan and what the NEO-conservatives, conservative, Republicans think it was him or taking credit for bringing down the Soviet Union was crap. Years before Reagan’s speech there was trouble in river city, the youth, middle class wanted change and this is what now is happening in the MI. Rather being or demonstrating against the United States, against Israel, against British imperialism it is, in response to their own governments. Corruption to name one.
It is called REFORM.
Implementing political economic and social reforms to respond to the needs of the people.
Think it can or won’t happen here?
2012 election. Nazi-conservatives with Newt baby being the dictator. Maybe Palin as a backup, Rush or Glen.
Coming soon to a city near you tanks,police,soldiers.
Your means of communication [cell phones, house phones, Facebook, You Tube, Twitter] cut off just like now in Egypt.
Do not panic your newly formed “NEWT” government is in control. “Lay down your weapons, anyone who has a weapon will be shot, stay indoors, find shelter until further notice. All 503 stations on your TV will read “This is a state of EMERGENCY stay tuned until further notice” “Additional news or what to do will be provided by your local FOX news channel”
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Jan 28, 2011 - 07:32pm PT
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“Withholding the Internet in Egypt is relatively easy, compared with other more democratic countries. For one thing, there are only four major ISPs, each of which has relatively few routers connecting them to the outside world. By comparison, anyone who wanted to shut down the Internet in the United States would have to deal with many different companies. And while Egypt can legally disable telecom companies by executive decree, American companies might fall under various regulatory umbrellas that limit the government's power to disrupt communication channels. Members of Congress have proposed creating a "kill switch" that would shut down the Internet at the push of a button in the case of a "cybersecurity emergency," but erecting such a blockade would be logistically difficult.
Excerpt from: Block Like an Egyptian
How did the Egyptian government turn off the Internet?
By Christopher BeamPosted Friday, Jan. 28, 2011, at 4:55 PM ET Slate.com
“Logistically difficult” no they could do it.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Jan 28, 2011 - 08:19pm PT
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He doesn't get it. It's not his cabinet that they want out, it is him.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 28, 2011 - 08:39pm PT
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He doesn't get it. It's not his cabinet that they want out, it is him.
So what??? A lot of people hated Bush, a lot of people hate Obama, so we should revolt in the streets???
Egypt is one of the more moderate ME countries. Do you really want to re-create the Jimmy Carter scenario of Iran with Egypt? The parallels are there.
You could get another Iran out of this.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 28, 2011 - 08:47pm PT
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A.C., because of his obfuscation and denial of UN weapons inspectors. Who was the head of that op? Mohammaed El Barradei?? What is Mo doing these days???
Coincidence???
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 28, 2011 - 08:52pm PT
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Mo is trying to step into Mubarack's place, to take over. Mo is an opportunistic rat! Is not to be trusted.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 28, 2011 - 08:58pm PT
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Goddamn, but you are stupid Bleuy....
Time will tell, won't it?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 28, 2011 - 09:01pm PT
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The fool who let Iran get a nuke.....
EDIT: Do you really think I talk sh#t out of my ass??? Really??
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 28, 2011 - 09:04pm PT
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All you do is post ridiculous crap, Matt. You never have INSIGHT or OPINION. Just vitriol...
Weak.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 28, 2011 - 09:19pm PT
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Ahhh!
I see! Now that A.C. is again "on board,' the "Discussion" becomes vitriol and name calling. I was thinking more highly of you recently, A.C. (see, I didn't use the perjorative "Alice" in my effort to remain civil!), but can a leopard change it spots? Nope.
This really IS a serious topic that has long-term ramifications for the U.S.A. If the Suez Canal gets closed, the price of oil again goes through the roof. Stability in the ME is important to the more advanced (non-barbaric) states that drive cars instead of camels.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 28, 2011 - 09:28pm PT
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Nope. Riots in the streets are necessary every so often. We need a few here. At least according to Jefferson.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jan 28, 2011 - 09:30pm PT
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Are you suggesting that the people of North Africa should sit down and shut up because you're concerned about rising oil prices?
no Alice,
i think BD is suggesting that you are an ignorant a-hole....
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jan 28, 2011 - 09:38pm PT
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I still want to know who owns the canal. It is very important to the world economy. I spent a bit of time today trying to figure it out. There is a canal zone and commission but beyond that ...?
We should claim an "easement" and equip the place accordingly...
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jan 28, 2011 - 09:41pm PT
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oh Alice, you are such a wise man that we hang on your every word.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jan 28, 2011 - 09:45pm PT
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Panama "owns" the Canal:
With much celebration, on 31 December 1999 Panama received full ownership and responsibility of the Panama Canal thanks to the Torrijos-Carter Treaty signed in 1977.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jan 28, 2011 - 09:48pm PT
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no Alice....you are an as#@&%e.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jan 28, 2011 - 09:49pm PT
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Thanks
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jan 28, 2011 - 09:52pm PT
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Udderly stoopid...
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corniss chopper
climber
not my real name
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Jan 28, 2011 - 10:52pm PT
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We're ignoring the most important factor to regime change in Egypt or any other country.
Namely: the bitching wife, cooped up in the palace, and driving the dictator nuts; he cracks and flies them all to Paris so little wifey can go shopping, the relief of not having to listen to her for awhile is priceless.
Check out the new wife of the son of the Egyptian dictator. Hot!
Khadiga El Gammal Mubarak, 27 yrs old. Known as Diga to her close friends.
Married to the 42 yr old son Gamal Mubarak, in 2007 at the resort of SHARM EL-SHEIKH, EGYPT. Now has fled to London with hubby and 2 dozen trunks of gold and jewels.
http://www.life.com/image/81153726
http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/EUcM8T7amUP/Leaders+Gather+World+Economic+Forum/lSaScrdi5yo/Khadiga+El+Gammal
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 29, 2011 - 10:41am PT
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Fatty-
I undertand your personal feelings and leanings, but the time for ANY foreign aid--military or non-military--has now long since passed. I for one, cannot see the USA subsidizing any one else with funds borrowed from China. Time to cut the foreign aid expenses to ZERO per Rand Paul's leadership in the U.S. Senate.
This gets us into security from perceived enemies, but as Pogo said, we have met the enemy and he is US! We're spending recklessly and out of control; the deficeit is our mortal enemy now. National bankruptcy HERE is the potential outcome, and our status as the world's only remaining superpower will become history.
Did you see Rand Paul's plan to cut $500 Billion? I support that completely. Oh yeah, Israel included!!
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 29, 2011 - 11:17am PT
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Fatty;
Agreed. We cannot have medical costs continuing to escalate and thus having Medicare eating our lunch. We need to address this through some type of malpractice reform in addition to getting the FDA under control.
As a retired professional who worked in the biotech/ pharma arena for 45 years, I know what the costs of new drug development are, and the primary cost is regulatory compliance. In 2001, the cost of developing a new drug and the regulatory compliance was $100 million; since that time costs have more than doubled.
We need to address the coverage of "recent immigrants" as well; the hospitals are jacking up prices to the general public to cover the expenses of treating the indigent. I'm not asking for regulation, but some means of getting the leeches out of the system.
As for Socialist Security, yes, I "paid in to the system," and it wasn't voluntary either. It was essentially armed robbery by the government. I used every accounting trick in the book to keep the "hit" minimal so I could do something else with my money. But it sure as Hell wasn't "voluntary."
My plan would be to get the deficeit under control and then begin an eleigibility check for qualifications for receiving these funds. There are people receiving benefits who have paid little or NOTHING into the "trust fund" (what a JOKE!). On the other hand my wife is totally disabled, but can't qualify for ANY assistance even though she paid in substantial amounts of $$$. Cutting to the chase, we begin a plan of reducing benefits received by 2% a year initially, and 3% the second year, and 5% subsequently, bringing down the benefits received gradually and taking additional measures to reduce "inflation" to less than zero.
But...we've digressed from the OP thread, and have now conducted a great Hijacking!
Cheers.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 29, 2011 - 02:00pm PT
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The New York Times has some interesting video footage showing three Egyptian armored personnel carriers blocking a narrow street after the police start firing on protestors, thus giving cover to the protestors. A bit later, Army personnel get out of the carriers and plead with the crowd to stay out of the line of fire.
Normally when the military begins to take the side of the people, the government has lost. The fact that the police have withdrawn from central Cairo and the military are friendly with the protestors looks like further evidence.
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bmacd
Social climber
100% Canadian
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Jan 29, 2011 - 03:01pm PT
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The majority of middle eastern peoples are a sensible bunch antagonized far too long by extremists, the elite, and dictators
Egypt protesters and soldiers: The army and the people are one
Military men, hoisted up by the crowd, remove their helmets; demonstrators chant they they will not cease their protest until Mubarak resigns.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/international/egypt-protesters-and-soldiers-the-army-and-the-people-are-one-1.339985
This image must strike fear into the ruling classes of Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc ….
Good thread thanks Majid
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 29, 2011 - 03:33pm PT
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From Jan's post and forward, I'd say that Mubarek is done for...
The people need a voice, and the class system that holds them in abject poverty and starvation needs to be destroyed. I hope that the CIA didn't set this up...
The religious crazies need to be kept away, and radical militant Islam is in reality no friend of the populace. It's just another caste system based on rerligious intolerance.
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bmacd
Social climber
100% Canadian
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Jan 29, 2011 - 05:21pm PT
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1.5 billion in aid from the USA goes mainly to Egypts military, they are not going to do anything to jepordize that funding
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 29, 2011 - 05:27pm PT
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Correction: it's $1.8 billion.
That needs to be eliminated. Why, I might ask, do we need to be "buying off" the Egyptians that way/
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jan 29, 2011 - 09:55pm PT
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Buying off countries we'd like to see cooperate with us sure beats invading their countries, killing their leaders, and converting the people there to Christianity to gain their compliance.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 29, 2011 - 10:21pm PT
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Chaz-
It used to be the method of choice, but now we have to borrow money from China to do it. Let's agree to let them borrow their OWN money instead. They've probably got better credit these days.
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Jan 29, 2011 - 11:16pm PT
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"We need to address this through some type of malpractice reform in addition to getting the FDA under control. "
man...thats priceless.....you tells'em brah.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jan 30, 2011 - 04:48am PT
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_egypt_protest
By HAMZA HENDAWI, Associated Press Hamza Hendawi, Associated Press – 19 mins ago
CAIRO – Thousands of inmates escaped prisons across Egypt on Sunday, including at least one jail that housed Muslim militants northwest of Cairo, adding to the chaos engulfing the country as anti-government protests continue to demand the ouster of longtime authoritarian President Hosni Mubarak.
Security officials said the prisoners escaped overnight from four jails after starting fires and clashing with guards. The inmates were helped by gangs of armed men who attacked the prisons, firing at guards in gun battles that lasted hours.
Looting and arson continued overnight as the police totally disappeared from the streets of the capital and several major Egyptian cities. There has been no explanation for why the police have vanished.
The vacuum left by the police has prompted residents to form neighborhood protection groups, armed with firearms, sticks and clubs to set up self-styled checkpoints and barricades to ward off looting gangs roaming Cairo and other cities. The groups set up barricades, using bricks and metal traffic barriers.
Groups of youths also directed traffic in parts of Cairo, chasing away gangs of criminals smashing passing cars. Residents said gangs were also stopping people on the streets and robbing them.
At least one shopping mall was on fire Sunday morning after it was looted the previous day.
Army helicopters were flying low over the city.
The army appears to be reinforcing its presence on the streets of Cairo, but entire neighborhoods remained without any troops two days after Mubarak called the army out on the streets to restore order.
The security officials said several inmates were killed and wounded during the escapes early Sunday, but gave no specific figures. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to share the information with the media.
State Egyptian television, meanwhile, said authorities have decided to close down the Cairo offices of the Qatar-based Al-Jazzera television and suspend the accreditation of its reporters.
The Egyptian TV did not give a reason for the move, but Egyptian authorities have often in the past charged that station's coverage of events in Egypt was sensational or biased against Mubarak's regime.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jan 30, 2011 - 04:50am PT
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_us_egypt
By JIM KUHNHENN, Associated Press Jim Kuhnhenn, Associated Press – Sun Jan 30, 12:04 am ET
WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama issued a plea for restraint in Egypt after meeting with national security aides Saturday to assess the Cairo government's response to widespread protests threatening the stability of the country.
A White House statement said Obama "reiterated our focus on opposing violence and calling for restraint, supporting universal rights, and supporting concrete steps that advance political reform within Egypt."
But Obama offered no reaction to President Hosni Mubarak's decision earlier Saturday to name a vice president for the first time since coming to power nearly 30 years ago. Mubarak appointed his intelligence chief, Omar Suleiman, who's well respected by American officials. The president also fired his Cabinet.
Five days of protests have left at more than 70 dead.
Before Suleiman's appointment, State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley said the U.S. wanted to see Mubarak fulfill his pledges of reform as protests swept the country.
"The Egyptian government can't reshuffle the deck and then stand pat," Crowley said on his Twitter account. "President Mubarak's words pledging reform must be followed by action."
Crowley said Egyptians "no longer accept the status quo. They are looking to their government for a meaningful process to foster real reform."
After speaking to Mubarak by telephone late Friday, Obama delivered a four minute statement calling on the Egyptian leader to take steps to democratize his government and refrain from using violence against his people.
As events unfolded Saturday, Obama and his advisers kept a low profile.
The president spent part of the morning watching one of his daughter's basketball games at a community center in the Maryland suburbs.
At the White House, top diplomatic, security and intelligence officials gathered for two hours for review the situation in Egypt. The meeting was led by national security adviser Tom Donilon and included White House chief of staff William Daley and CIA Director Leon Panetta. Vice President Joe Biden, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton and Margaret Scobey, the U.S. ambassador to Egypt, participated by teleconference, the White House said.
Obama did not attend that session.
His afternoon meeting with many of the same officials also included press secretary Robert Gibbs and adviser David Plouffe.
Suleiman has played an active role in the peace process, particularly in trying to arrange compromise between rival Palestinian factions, Fatah and Hamas. He has been at the forefront of the Egyptian effort to crackdown on arms smuggling from Egypt into Gaza.
Suleiman has been "the point person on both the U.S. relationship and the Israel Egyptian relationship," said Jon Alterman, Mideast director at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. "He's very reassuring both ways."
Diplomatic cables released by Wikileaks help illustrate that point. One reports on an April 2009 meeting between Suleiman and Admiral Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Suleiman, the cable says, "explained that his overarching regional goal was combating radicalism, especially in Gaza, Iran, and Sudan."
The cable reports that Suleiman said Egypt must "confront" Iranian attempts to smuggle arms to Gaza and quotes him saying "a Gaza in the hands of radicals will never be calm."
A 2007 cable discusses scenarios for presidential succession and reports the view of an Egyptian official that Mubarak's son Gamal viewed Suleiman as a potential threat.
A second cable from 2007 describes Suleiman as Mubarak's "consigliore," a term more typically associates with mobsters. Even then, Suleiman was mentioned as likely to assume the role of vice president. It says Suleiman himself "adamantly denies any personal ambitions, but his interest and dedication to national service is obvious."
"He could be attractive to the ruling apparatus and the public at large as a reliable figure unlikely to harbor ambitions for another multi-decade presidency," the cable states. It also says Mubarak had promised to name Suleiman vice president "several years ago" but then reneged.
The cables were sent by the U.S. Embassy in Cairo.
Alterman said Suleiman's elevation to vice president is designed by Mubarak to signal resolve.
"It is intended to send a message that if Hosni Mubarak leaves, the system remains," he said. "It is not reassuring to the protestors, but it is reassuring to people who fear that Egypt might be slipping into chaos."
Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, R-Fla, chair of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, said Saturday that Mubarak should schedule elections in order to allow the Egyptian people to express their right to choose their leaders.
Ros-Lehtinen also cautioned against the involvement of extremist elements which could seek to use the current turmoil as an opportunity to advance their agendas.
"The Egyptian people need to be afforded a peaceful venue to express their will," she said.
In New York, Cambridge, Mass., and Washington, protesters took to the streets demanding that Mubarak step down.
Outside the Egyptian Embassy a few miles from the White House, demonstrators also criticized the Obama administration's response to the tumult in Egypt. They waved Egyptian flags and held signs that read "Obama: Democracy or Hypocrisy?" and "Victory to the Egyptian People!"
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 30, 2011 - 05:43am PT
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I think the events in Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen and Algeria demonstrate peoples' universal repulsion at being subject to dictators, and the ultimate inability of repressive governments to keep outside information from their people. The roles of the internet and Twitter in allowing the activists to communicate shows this.
I agree with Jan; the Mubarik reign will fall (so to speak). The new regime, whatever it is, will almost certainly differ from what we consider ideal, but the Egyptians have the right to choose what they want, not what we do. I just hope we have enough insight not to do what we did with the Shah in Iran and prop up an unpopular, repressive, and doomed regime.
In response to broken's posts, fattrad has it right: the cost of foreign aid pales in comparison to the ultimate cost of entitlements. I see that debate, however, as better suited for the "Republicans" thread than here. I do think, however, that U.S. foreign policy is fair game on this thread, so. . .
To me, Rand Paul's neo-isolationism makes as much sense as the Isolationists' positions did from 1920-1941. Events in the rest of the world affect Americans' lives. Besides, if we do not stand for democracy and self-determination for all people, I think we lose a big part of our national morality. It's the same with humanitarian aid. The world affects us here, and we affect the world. I find it neither moral nor expedient to hide our heads and hoard our dollars.
John
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 30, 2011 - 09:30am PT
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Agreed. We cannot have medical costs continuing to escalate and thus having Medicare eating our lunch. We need to address this through some type of malpractice reform in addition to getting the FDA under control.
Malpractice related expenses are a whopping 2% of health care costs.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 30, 2011 - 09:32am PT
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We should have done the Cheney plan better and toppled them all when we had all forces deployed.
YOU are the problem.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 30, 2011 - 10:54am PT
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Dirtbag-
The "visible portion" that you mention is but the tip of the iceberg; it's the associated cost to the hospitals, doctors, laboratories, etc. of malpractice insurance hidden in their fee schedules.
The eligibility issue is much worse, with the requirement of treating the indigent and non-resident aliens for free, that runs up the expensse for fee paying patients. Maybe you know the acronym TANSTAAFL? There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch? Somebody's gotta pay the bills. And that's US, bro.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 30, 2011 - 11:00am PT
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Getting back to the theme of the thread
John-
I'm afraid that we need to get our own house in order before doling out cash to other countries; our Foreign Policy generally is paying others to do our bidding...
As Everett Dirksen said many years ago; "A billion here, a billion there---pretty soon you're talking about some real money." That was at a time that a billion WAS real money.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 30, 2011 - 11:09am PT
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Dingus-
Just remember that we bought the bullets... Gaaak!
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 30, 2011 - 01:28pm PT
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For a fictional but chilling look at the future, read "Caliphate," by Tom Kratman. Some excellent military-oriented SF.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 30, 2011 - 01:49pm PT
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Dirtbag-
The "visible portion" that you mention is but the tip of the iceberg; it's the associated cost to the hospitals, doctors, laboratories, etc. of malpractice insurance hidden in their fee schedules
That's not what I've heard.
And btw, worry about jobs first. It's a huge ass recession: deficits are supposed to go up until tax rolls catch up.
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Douglas Rhiner
Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
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Jan 30, 2011 - 02:13pm PT
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Oh, notice that it came from ultra-liberal SF Chron, not any other source.
The ultra-liberal SF Chron you oh so love to quote?
"America, Israel will protect you"...... as long as Rand Paul doen't have his way.
Bwhhhhahahahahahahah!
You are a joke, Jeff.
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froodish
Social climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 30, 2011 - 02:47pm PT
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Iran was lost well before Carter came into office. He just happened to be there when the seeds planted by the CIA overthrow of the democratically elected Mosaddegh government came to fruition.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 30, 2011 - 02:51pm PT
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But then factor in that the main opposition to Mubarak is hamas and the muslim brotherhood,
Yeah, that's pretty much all I needed to know. Where is the 'world support' for the peolple of Nigeria? Thailand? The Phillipines? How about Venezuela? Cuba? North Korea? Mexico??
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 30, 2011 - 03:04pm PT
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Dirtbag-
Yes, this time you've come closer to hitting the nail--er--piton(?) right on the head. It IS all about jobs, and why have we exported them all to China with all of Wally World's money? I've said it many times: time to reinstitute import tariffs; actual Constitutional taxation. That will stop the export of jobs, create revenue for the government, and ultimately renew national prosperity.
The fact is, our international image has been declining as our reliance on foreign capital (loans) has increased.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 30, 2011 - 03:10pm PT
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Bluey-
I suspect that the "Muslim Brotherhood" has been fomenting overthrow of governments in all of the ME countries. Whether or not they have sufficient popularity among the masses is another thing entirely. I hope they don't have that much clout.
I truly hope that a populist movement and truly free elections can result in a freer people, but I somehow doubt that will happen. There have seldom been "power vacuums."
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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Jan 30, 2011 - 03:26pm PT
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the muslim brotherhood is a responsible organization that has renounced terrorist tactics years ago. please do not confuse them with al-Qaeda. efforts will be made by some to blur that distinction.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 30, 2011 - 03:34pm PT
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Ahad-
I generally become concerned with religious groups and their roles in overthrowing governments. Peaceful or not, I don't believe in cumpulsion to be of a particular religion.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 30, 2011 - 03:43pm PT
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time will tell.
Most perceptive comment so far...
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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Jan 30, 2011 - 03:44pm PT
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Broken,
I am pointing out that efforts will be made in the US media (it's already been common) to equate the Muslim Brotherhhod with a terrorist group. This is far from the truth. If you like the Brotherhood has an english language website. Scroll down and you will find a topic Muslim Brotherhood vs AQ
Thank you
http://www.ikhwanweb.com/
Hamas is viewed a terrorist organization by the US and israel. much of the world and certainly most palestinians view them as freedom fighters and the democratically elected gov't of their people.
of course you understand historical zionist leaders such as Begin were deemed terrorists at one time by Britan. google king david hotel if you like
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 30, 2011 - 03:45pm PT
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You actually believe the 10:00 NEWS? BWAAAHHAHAHAHAH!
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jan 30, 2011 - 03:53pm PT
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Tank drivers aren't allowed to flatten people holding pompoms.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 30, 2011 - 03:54pm PT
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This all began with the people of Egypt; and not the Muslim Brotherhood.
It was days after protests began that the Muslim Brotherhood (Independents) announced its intention to support the protesters.
There once was a National Socialist party that appealed to many disenfranchised people too. They had lost faith in their bankrupt gov't. They too were promised hope of a new beginning.
Time will tell? Smarter people can see through this. Eqypt is one of the more moderate and modern Islamic countries. You wanna start "democratic change" there??
How about Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan, and Somalia? Start there!@
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 30, 2011 - 04:02pm PT
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According to KerBleuy, the people of Egypt should have marched on Iran first.
Brilliant.
No, dipsh#t, I implied our State Dept should be pressuring real 'problem countries', not deposing allies.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 30, 2011 - 04:12pm PT
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This is a really great thread: I find that I can even occasionally agree with A.C. on some issues! I can agree with Bluey on some issues. I can disagree with Fatty on some issues. And I can probably alienate everyone on some issues! Fascinating!!
The ME has been one FU mess ever since oil was discovered and the Sheiks started driving Mercedes.
My bottom line however, is the populist movement must be allowed to prevail without U.S. State Department meddling, and for sure the CIA stays out.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 30, 2011 - 04:15pm PT
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My bottom line however, is the populist movement must be allowed to prevail without U.S. State Department meddling, and for sure the CIA stays out.
I agree, but good luck with that. There is too much at stake for the SD and the CIA to not intervene. It's the Suez canal, man....
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tinker b
climber
the commonwealth
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Jan 30, 2011 - 04:25pm PT
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thankyou to the people who have provided more information on this issue. i really enjoyed what reilly posted on the first page from the economist, just about social media as a vice for democracy.
it is unfortunate that there is so much name calling and blabber to weed through on this site that i didn't have the patience to read much more after that. like a bunch of loud kids in the class so happy to hear their own voice, they prevent others from learning.
i listened to friday's democracy now podcast. interesting that the government has shut down cell phones, internet, ect. that in and of itself really illuminates what kind of regime is in there. also that although the leader wears business suits, his background is in the military.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 30, 2011 - 04:32pm PT
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i listened to friday's democracy now podcast. interesting that the government has shut down cell phones, internet, ect. that in and of itself really illuminates what kind of regime is in there. also that although the leader wears business suits, his background is in the military.
Nice to see where you get your "news" from. Do you realize how many US presidents also wore a military uniform and went on to perform admirably in the Chief's Office?
You, like I, obviously have a strong bias on the issue. I'd ask you to look at my previous posts where bleeding-hearts, like yourself, have no mention of saving more desperate people. People getting raped, mutilated, and worse.
Where's you silly bleeding heart there??? Have you no compassion?
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Jan 30, 2011 - 04:34pm PT
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"the muslim brotherhood is a responsible organization that has renounced terrorist tactics years ago. please do not confuse them with al-Qaeda. efforts will be made by some to blur that distinction."
Agreed
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 30, 2011 - 04:39pm PT
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Ever read the Muslim Brotherhood charter???
Fatty's right here...they want to spread sharia under the guise of 'mutual tolerance'. They do not mean well.
EDIT: Hit me, Matt....
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 30, 2011 - 04:43pm PT
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Copts make up about 10% of Egypt's population of 80 million. A Coptic church in Alexandria was bombed on January 1st, 2011. 21 people died. It appears that the attack was by a Muslim extremist group. As a result, there have been substantial protests in Egypt and elsewhere, not just by Copts but by many other Egyptians, to express their support for the Copts. Those demonstrations of solidarity appear to be one root of the current wider demonstrations against the government.
Except if you go through the looking glass into FattyLand.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 30, 2011 - 04:44pm PT
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I do have serious reservations against religious meddlers in politics. It seems however, that the primary opposition to El Baradei would be Israel.
Face facts: sooner or later Iran WILL get the bomb, if they don't already have it. Pakistan has the "Islamic Bomb." Ever since the Crusades, the war between militant Islam and the traditional Christian West/Judaism has been raging; now that Islamic countries are wealthy the wars are escalating.
I think that "wait and see, only time will tell" is the best approach here.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 30, 2011 - 04:50pm PT
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sooner or later Iran WILL get the bomb, if they don't already have it.
But hte question is WHO will control it? Crazy Aqmed-in-a-jihad, or some other more noble ruler??? That is the question!
This whole wait-and-see crap is BS in my opinion. Tell that to the japs in Nagasaki or the jews going through the gates of Dachau.
Never forget. And learn from your history.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jan 30, 2011 - 04:51pm PT
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No Bluering, Anders is saying Egyptians prefer a more egalitarian society.
And of course the corruption of Mubarak is a top concern.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 30, 2011 - 04:52pm PT
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Matt, the Egyptian "people" are the ones persecuting the f*#king Copts!!! Are you stupid? I know you ain't so you must be just trolling. Stop it. This is a serious discussion!@!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 30, 2011 - 04:56pm PT
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January 4th: As protesters marched through downtown Cairo toward Talat Harb Square, where they were vastly outnumbered by riot police officers in black uniforms wielding truncheons, they chanted “Down with Mubarak” and “Down with the military state.” But they also carried signs with slogans like, “Egyptians are one people” and “Citizenship is the way out from the slide into sectarianism.”
This attack has so shaken the nation that for the first time in recent memory, there has been a torrent of support for the Christian community within the national news media — and a direct challenge to the government’s narrative, which tends to overlook the tense backdrop of interfaith relations. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/04/world/middleeast/04egypt.html?scp=3&sq=egypt%20copts%20vigil&st=cse
This contradicts the simplistic, agenda-driven accounts promoted by others. Certainly not all Egyptians, particularly Muslim Egyptians, actively or passively support their Coptic community. Some are opposed, even violently. Egypt is a country of 80 million, with major problems - although it has had substantial economic growth the last few years. It is a far more complex and nuanced place than some suggest.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 30, 2011 - 04:56pm PT
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Monolith, good points. But before you depose somebody, you have to have a leader to replace him. One who meets you 'righteous code of ethics'. Who is that???
Do we, the hypocrites, have the same thing here??? And yet we ask it of 2nd world countries.
Amazing.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jan 30, 2011 - 05:03pm PT
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Their system did not allow for the choice of the people. Their only choice now is to break the system. If the system is replaced by someone/something they don't want, the protests will continue.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 30, 2011 - 05:18pm PT
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Their only choice now is to break the system. If the system is replaced by someone/something they don't want, the protests will continue.
Not necessarily. It could go all IRAN. That is a big gamble. Was it really so bad before? By ME standards? I don't think it was.
Maybe they're ready for the jump from 2nd to 1st world nation status. I'm just sayin' ya gotta be careful. This is the head of the Muslim Brotherhood nation. Things can go bad quickly.
And remember this. When we start bombing these f*#kers when sh#t goes bad, remember where you stood.
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2011 - 07:11pm PT
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US asking all Americans to leave Egypt
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 30, 2011 - 07:24pm PT
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The US is not a theocracy and the fact some people killed some cryptic christians in Egypt has nothing at all to do with the US.
Why does the US vs. THEM crowd never fight their own fights?
Huh?
Tell ya what? If you feel the coptic christians of Egypt are getting a bad shake, get your ass over there and do something about it. Otherwise, stfu about it.
Hey Dingus, ever hear of a band called the Nazis? This is a religious war.
You can turn a blind eye, like so many dud, or you can remember history. Not even the Nasties in all their glory of killing priests unt Juden. Go back further.
This may be a clash as Fatty alaways points out, sorry to say.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 30, 2011 - 07:57pm PT
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The meddlers here haven't learned a damned thing from history.
Our meddling in Iran in 1953 STILL has repercussions today. Sh#t like that is why there is a lot of animosity to the U.S.: not some bullshit C of C idea.
We need to mostly GTFO.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 30, 2011 - 08:07pm PT
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If it turns any uglier, well so be it.
Let's sit this one out and get our own house in order. We can no longer be the World's Policeman! Not that we ever should have tried, either.
We need to STFO!
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 30, 2011 - 08:46pm PT
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Tami-
I recall Sean Connery is Irish!
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froodish
Social climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 30, 2011 - 08:48pm PT
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Nope, Scottish.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 30, 2011 - 09:44pm PT
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Lots of Americans stranded in Cairo. Airport closed early due to curfew.
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Jan 30, 2011 - 10:43pm PT
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"Just back from the mall with my daughter. After years of trying, found "The Wind and The Lion" on DVD, hmmmmm, I know it's a bit fictionalized, but the reality is the western powers (US included) have been replacing monarchs in the ME since 1906."
Absolutely right Fattidiot, the welfare of the peoples of the Arab world has been the top priority of the American government for nearly a century. Hell, when they democratically elected the wrong guy in Iran in 1953 we even booted him out for them and put the right guy in his place.....how nice of us was that?....
Lets face it, them's A-rabs is just freedom hating ingrates...
and that Fattrads as dumb as a post.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 30, 2011 - 10:52pm PT
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Three hours ago. The UK has not yet begun charter flights.
Charter flights to carry thousands of Americans out of Egypt
By the CNN Wire Staff
January 30, 2011 -- Updated 2325 GMT (0725 HKT)
Charter flights will begin Monday to ferry the first of many Americans away from the escalating crisis in Egypt.
U.S. Department of State
Washington (CNN) -- Charter flights that begin Monday will ferry the first of thousands of Americans away from the escalating crisis in Egypt, the State Department said.
"We will keep running the charter flights until we get [all] people out," said Assistant Secretary of State Janice L. Jacobs.
Relatives back home in the United States are relaying needed information to those trying to get out of Cairo, Alexandria, Luxor and other cities, she said. Internet service is down in most of Egypt and frustrated travelers have had to find other ways to get information.
"Lack of internet access makes our job more difficult," Jacobs said.
The State Department has established telephone numbers and an e-mail address for "understandably worried" Americans in Egypt and loved ones to communicate with the U.S. Embassy, she said.
The State Department is sending additional employees to Egypt and the "safe haven" locations in Europe to assist in the effort, Jacobs said Sunday.
Officials are looking at Istanbul, Turkey; Nicosia, Cyprus; and Athens, Greece, as possible destinations, although the list was not finalized Sunday afternoon, said Jacobs, who oversees consular affairs.
Government dependents and nonessential employees will be among the first to go, although any private U.S. citizen who chooses to leave will get out during the week, she added.
Those private citizens who do fly a charter will have to reimburse the government for the ticket and must make his or her own plans for further travel once they reach a "safe haven," Jacobs said.
Officials don't expect to need assistance from the U.S. military.
Travelers in Cairo and elsewhere have been upset by their lack of access to information and, in some cases, a live person on the phone.
The staff of the Cairo Embassy has been overwhelmed by inquiries and the State Department has a 24-7 task force and call centers, said Jacobs, adding that radio and TV, along with websites and telephones, are being utilized to provide travel updates.
The government is asking family members in the United States to continue assisting in the effort.
"That seems to be working pretty well," she said.
Jacobs advised Americans not to swamp the Cairo airport, which is open but is seeing more flight cancellations.
Travelers, if they have a commercial airline ticket, should continue working with their carrier on getting out, Jacobs said.
The U.S. Embassy has advised Americans in Egypt to limit their movements, avoid protests and use taxis when possible to reach the airport. Travelers should arrive in plenty of time and obey the hours of the curfew, which may be lengthened.
"We have a short window of time to operate these flights," the official said.
When asked about efforts to assist Americans in Alexandria, Luxor and other cities outside Cairo, Jacobs said the government is trying to get information to them and might considering flying charters out of areas with large pockets of citizens who cannot get to Cairo. About 100 Americans are stranded in Luxor.
Laura Murphy, who is on a stranded Nile River tour, told CNN that the ship's captain has anchored the boat in Luxor after being warned against docking at any of the stops along the Nile because those areas may be unsafe for tourists.
Murphy said two men with plane tickets to Cairo were stuck in Luxor because the plane never showed up.
"You cannot get away by water. You cannot take public transportation because it is unsafe and you cannot fly," Murphy said. "I'm safe but trapped."
Other countries, including Turkey, already have begun to fly out their citizens.
The State Department's charter flights will give first priority to Americans, Jacobs said.
"If there are seats available, we can make those available to other citizens," she said.
The State Department advises people interested in taking a charter flight out of Egypt to send an e-mail to EgyptEmergencyUSC@state.gov or call 202-501-4444. Relatives concerned that their loved one in Egypt may require help can use the same e-mail address and the same number if they are outside the United States or Canada. Those in the United States or Canada can call toll-free at 1-888-407-4747.
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Jan 30, 2011 - 11:05pm PT
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"And, I don't know anything about the "election" in 1953"
I do, Mosaddegh was overwhelmingly popular, no hint of a rigged election. He was however threatening to nationalize the Iranian oil fields....which is why the us and the brits set up a coup and installed the Shah.
You can stick "election" up your fat uninformed arse.
I'm really amazed that someone who's always pumping his own supposed smarts can be so completely wrong about such basic historical facts...I mean do you honestly believe that western countries have been a positive force for the people of the arab world?
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 30, 2011 - 11:18pm PT
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Jeremy-
Now you've touched on the essential element of "our" meddling in the ME! It was, is, and will always be the oil.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 30, 2011 - 11:25pm PT
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The Brittish wanted the the Iranian guy out in 1953, we merely helped.
The overthrow of Iran's democratically elected premier Mossadegh in 1953 was almost wholly orchestrated by the CIA, led by Kermit Roosevelt, with help from the English.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%A9tat
But then, to Fatty, black is white.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 30, 2011 - 11:27pm PT
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Wrong, A.C.!
The Iraqui oil was a large part of the Desert Storm operation 10 years ago, as was the interruption of oil from Kuwait.
Afghanistan is a critical corridor for pipeline construction to the Bay of Bengal from the Russian oil fields.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 30, 2011 - 11:33pm PT
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Minor point A.C. since petroleum products are generally controlled by the same companies; BP, Conoco, Exxon, etc.
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Jan 30, 2011 - 11:38pm PT
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Disagree Mr Crowley, there's really only one reason we do anything in the middle East, and that includes Iraq...although I'll give you Afghanistan.
As I posted last august....Aug 12, 2010 - 09:03am PT
Looks like the iraq war has finally produced the intended fruit. Oil companies from all the permanent member countries of the UN security council have now secured contracts to develop Iraqi oil resources.
Of course, as Elezarian, Fattrad etc were always quick to point out, the idea that the Iraq war was about oil is the stuff of wacko conspiracy nutjobs. Imperialism?...I'm sure the iraqi people will do very well out of those contracts...don't you think lads?
Just another thing that they were wrong about I suppose.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 30, 2011 - 11:44pm PT
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Gawd, Crowley!
That Socialist screed is as left-liberal a slant as one could come up with!
To quote Margaret Thatcher: "Socialism will never succeed because sooner or later you run out of other people's money."
The Israelis are pissed off because they got the only land in the ME that didn't have any oil.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 30, 2011 - 11:49pm PT
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The neo-cons like to promote Margaret Thatcher as a "success". Except that it was for the most part based on steadily-increasing oil and gas revenue during her term in office. She promoted neo-con economic and governance policies, and for the most part instituted centrist ones. But she paid for it with oil money. Had she not had that, the fluke of the Falklands War in 1982, and the luck of a feckless opposition, she would have been a one term prime minister.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 31, 2011 - 12:39am PT
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I agree with Mighty Hiker on Thatcher. I was in England during the 1970's before the North Sea oil started flowing and they had to take out an IMF loan like any Third World country in order to survive. When the oil's gone, they will have similar problems. Resources and population count more than political slant.
As for Afghanistan, it has been recently discovered that they have huge mineral resources and the largest amount of rare earth metals outside of China, so don't expect us to leave there any time soon. In the meantime, thanks to the Taliban, we are trying to win the hearts and minds there and a lot of good work is being done with building health clinics and schools. In time, mining will replace poppy growing.
Empire is always a mixed bag. Some good, some bad. Just ask any two people from India whether the Brits did more good than bad and what the percentages of one versus the other would be, and you will get a really interesting discussion.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 31, 2011 - 12:41am PT
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Just back in from checking the cows--calving time and as usual--coupled with bad weather.
Never said I ever agreed with the occupation policies of the Bush administration. They certainly were rapacious. Not what I would have done...
By the way Cheney isn't well liked in Wyoming, in spite of having a home here.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 31, 2011 - 12:56am PT
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Rox-
Glad you're aboard tonight. Good picture!!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 31, 2011 - 03:09am PT
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I've been away most of the day, so I'll respond to several posts all at once.
Why, John? Why this need to promulgate? When other forms of government try to export their system we call foul. And what does morality have to do with it, precisely? I've long pondered the very blurred line between religious fervor and patriotism, religion and politics. Here we see the two neatly merged.
Democracy is a voting system, its not a religion. There is no need to spread the word, no supreme directive. The spread of democracy is not a morality issue. Imposing American will on other countries - THAT is a morality issue.
DMT
Democracy difffers from all those other forms of government because, by definition, the government leaders come from the peoples' choices.
Resources and population count more than political slant.
Jan, I agree that's true where the different political slants vary only slightly. The differences between Blair, say, and Thatcher weren't all that great. The differences between Thatcher and Breshnev, for example, were exceedingly great. Those sorts of differences made a much larger difference in the prosperity of the western democracies and the relative poverty of the Communist countries than did resources and population.
Finally,
Jeremy, I think differntly from what you wrote. America finds the Near East vital to its interests becaus it controls a vast chunk of the world's petroleum reserves, and some of its most important trade routes. That said, I support democracy everywhere, and am opposed to American policy that props up autocrats. I realize that's naive, but so be it. As the events in Iran showed, and those in Egypt will, even the US cannot keep unpopular regimes in power indefinitely.
I admit, though, that our resources are finite, and that war is, essentially, the sanctioning of mass murder, so we should not go into it lightly.
As for Iraq, unless you believe the statistical liars, the deaths caused by our invasion pale in comparison to the deaths caused by the rule of the Baath party. I think the invasion of Iraq, given the intelligence available then, is defensible. I think the post-invasion policy -- and specifically the total lack of any plan for what to do after we deposed the Baathists -- was a disaster, and overall, may have done greater harm to the Iraqi people than Saddam himself perpetrated.
John
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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Jan 31, 2011 - 08:26am PT
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it's been embarrassing to watch Obama and Clinton flip flop on the Egyptian popular revolts. One moment they are calling for human rights to be upheld, then in an about face they comment that the US still back mubarak's regime. These two points are mutually exclusive. Not surprising though in that this is the Israeli position. Haaretz is reporting that senior Israeli officials in the foreign ministry sent out memos on Saturday evening to US and other embassies asking for the continued support for mubarak. http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-urges-world-to-curb-criticism-of-Egypt-s-mubarak-1.340238
I'm sure Israel's amen corner here is putting the pressure on the administration and obama and company must tread a fine line between support for a democratic peoples movement that will benefit some 80 million people. As usual we will see the desires of an influential minority of about 7 million people respected over the majority. It's actions like this that are so destructive to US foreign policy.
opposition calling for 1,000,000 strong on tuesday.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 31, 2011 - 10:07am PT
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DT-
I agree and your viewpoint was celarly stated.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jan 31, 2011 - 10:30am PT
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Egypt’s military is a stay at home force, not an expeditionary force like ours. In this capacity the military has regular daily contact with people there. This military builds roads and schools. It guards borders and national treasures. They have conscription and most every young person serves for a time (I read it is 4 years if you go in after high school, less if you go to college.) They have a core of professional officers and the leadership of this military is closely tied to the US.
Egypt’s military establishment has little to gain by propping up Mubarak and much to lose if Islamic radicals take over. Mubarak is likely out of the country by now, having been convinced it is better to run with some ill-gotten gains than face the facts on the ground.
What next is the big question. Ideally the military can keep the peace during the establishment of something resembling a secular democracy.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 31, 2011 - 10:58am PT
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It should also be noted that the military in Egypt, and many other countries,
is populated by the good old patronage system. Bearing that in mind it
follows that while the soldiers probably sympathize with the protesters
they do have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. The same
applies to the police with the obvious differences that they are more
corrupted financially and morally. The other big difference is that in a
regime change the army has more job security.
On the issue of democracy I aver that there is the proverbial snowball's
chance in Cairo of anything even close to bona fide democracy being created
there regardless of who comes out on top. It will just be a different bunch
in charge of doling out government jobs and kicking the economic can down the
street. Egypt has far too many people for its very limited resources.
Somewhat paradoxically the Egyptian economy has actually been doing rather
well for the last year. GDP was up 5.2% for 2010 with industrial production
up 3.6%. I hope those protestors don't expect much of an improvement on that.
It ain't gonna happen!
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KlimbingKafir
climber
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Jan 31, 2011 - 11:41am PT
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Hey guys,
I am a longtime lurker here and have been living in the Middle East for the last two year. The amount of bad and incorrect information being tossed around and presented as fact on this thread is quite staggering. Ahad aham knows what he is talking about.
The situation is far from good with the US being put in a particularly hard position. Mubarak is a bastard but hes our bastard... the real fear is who replaces him? Any type of Islamist party such as the Muslim Brotherhood would force Israel to react.
There are protests not only in Yemen but Jordan and rumors of protests in the Kurdish areas of Syria have prompted Bashar to shut off the internet.
Keep in mind the elephant in the room has been since 1948, Israel. Arabs have a much longer view of history than we Americans do and to them one hundred years is recent memory. Its all relative when you are praying in a mosque that was a Roman temple before the birth of Christ. The Arab (and Persian) world believe in the destruction of Israel. They believe the land was stolen and eventually they will prevail and the Jews "will disappear like sugar in tea" (quote from my taxi driver this morning).
A response from Israel could be a terrible mistake. This administration has been the least supportive of Israel in many years and without Western help (France perhaps?) there is little chance Israel could win a multi-front war. Rand Paul is shouting restraint. Obama doesn't want to start/escalate a major military conflict. To the north you have Lebanon, Hezbollah and Syria all waiting for the right moment, possibly allowing Iran to move through Syria and Lebanon to take the fight into Israel.
The general civil unrest I am sure is scaring the current batch of big men but shifting the anger towards Israel could be the unifying action to bring the Arab world together toward a common goal. More than they hate their dictators they hate what has been done to their Palestinian brothers.
Also, it is important to realize there are many many different groups that stand to gain or lose from various hypothetical scenarios. The Kurds have been fighting in Eastern Turkey for years now... just not reported in Western news at all. The fear in Syria is the Kurds capitalize on the unrest and establish a united Kurdistan while everyone is looking elsewhere...
Just some thoughts from my lunch break.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Jan 31, 2011 - 11:45am PT
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thanks for
the insight
kafir.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 31, 2011 - 12:49pm PT
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This animosity towards the U.S. isn't anything new, either. It extends back further than 1948 when Truman sanctioned the state of Israel. It probably extends to Roosevelt's policy of total support for the British Empire and the seizure of Iraq during W.W. II, and beyond...
Fatty mentions "The Wind and the Lion," one of my favorite movies; the meddling in the FE began there, I suppose, with the adventure in Morocco. The animosity towards the Islamic peoples of North Africa goes back to the Barbary Pirates and the Barbary wars conducted by Jefferson. Predation was a way of life then, and I suppose we took a page from that book during the Bush I and subsequent administrations.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 31, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
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"Just not much."
RokJox
has become a poet!
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 31, 2011 - 12:59pm PT
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Fatty;
Understand that. I was only referring this general animosity towards the U.S.A., and not towards Western Civilization overall.
Get the movie "The Kingdom of Heaven" the next time you go to the video store. Good story, and sufficiently bloody to sate anyones appetite for bloodshed...
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Jan 31, 2011 - 01:20pm PT
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KlimbingKafir,
It's going to take longer than your lunch hour to explain the history of Jews in the "Arab World." While one could gather thousands of comments from individual Arabs and Israelis alike, each calling for the extermination of the other--that does not shed light. Most are peaceful. This is self-evident, as there is still huge coexistence.
Most Arabs distinguish between the invasion of European/Eastern Bloc Jews into Palestine (i.e., people with no genetic claim to the land, like Caucasians, etc. here in the U.S.) from the Jews who have lived among Arabs for millennia--and are in fact "Arab Jews." Only about half of the Jews in Israel are Semitic. Remember, many Arab Muslims and Christians in Palestine are themselves descended from Jews.
What's one common Arab term for Jews? It's "cousin," for good reason.
In Cairo, Damascus, and other major Arab cities, for example, there is a very long history of Jews living peaceably with Muslims and Christians. Certainly these periods were interrupted by episodes of violence--but the longevity of the co-existing communties is clear. It all began to go really bad in the 20th C., with the heavy arrival of European Jews in Palestine.
But now they are there, and--I might add--some are among the most courageous people anywhere in the way that they oppose Israeli government policies. In any case, It is unlikely that the apartheid state of Israel will endure in its present form for many decades. Way too many pressures from all angles, including internal Jewish ones.
Fattrad,
Your ignorance of the region, hitched to a lumbering lust for violence, is so stunning as to be comical. There are probably dozens of non-crazy, right-leaning Israelis who would go out of their way to tutor you, as you would constitute an embarrassment to their side. Seek some help.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 31, 2011 - 01:25pm PT
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A CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS.
No it isn't. That's complete bullsh#t. Stop meddling and people will stop hating us.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 31, 2011 - 01:27pm PT
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Fattrad,
Your ignorance of the region, hitched to a lumbering lust for violence, is so stunning as to be comical. There are probably dozens of non-crazy, right-leaning Israelis who would go out of their way to tutor you, as you would constitute an embarrassment to their side. Seek some help.
Worth repeating.
Fatty for all your supposed knowledge and mideast connections you're actually pretty narrow minded. In your own way you're an idealist, not the "realist" you think you are.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 31, 2011 - 01:42pm PT
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It's not really a "Clash of Civilizations," but a clash of religions. Both Islam and Christianity have propagated through the sword. It has little to do with the character of the peoples involved, since the Palastinians and Egyptians are also "Semites" as well as the Jews.
The earlier post re: influx into Israel by non-Semitic Jews from Europe can be revealing. Simply refer to the Encyclopaedea Britannica and look under Khazars, and Kingdom of the Khazars. this is the origin of the so-calld Ashkenazi Jews, vs. the Sephardic Jews of the Holy Lands.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jan 31, 2011 - 01:42pm PT
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Fattrad..I suppose you will tell us you dated Golda Meir...?
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 31, 2011 - 01:45pm PT
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your problem is that you believe in whirled peas.
No, I don't. I'm not a pacifist. I just don't believe in meddling. Iran--1953--f*#ked everything up for years, not you're silly CofC baloney.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 31, 2011 - 01:52pm PT
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While religious leaders and corrupt politicians may have emphasized "them" vs. "us," most of the people living in the Near East have coexisted with other ethnic groups and other faiths for over a millenneum. Both the Seljuks and the Ottomans generally left their conquered people in place, with the result that the region -- together with the Balkans (former Ottoman territory) has been a polyglot of amazing variety.
My mother's family lived in the village of Bhamdoun, in the mountains east of Beirut, in the summer. In the building where I stayed in 1970, there was a Druze family on the first floor, my mother's brother (Armenian Evangelical) on the second floor, and a Maronite Christian family on the third floor. All got along just fine, while back in the US, rangers and hippies were fighting it out in Stoneman Meadow. Once the Lebanese Civil War started in 1975, the Armenians, Druze and Maronites were all allegedly enemies of each other.
The sad history of the Levant and Palestine has been domination by outside forces, whether Egyptian, Assyrian, Persian, Seleucids and Romans or Ottomans, British, French, American, Russian and Iranian. The area is too small in population and resources to defend itself, and too important as a trade route for outsiders to leave alone.
Looking at the broader Middle East, I think Iran offers the most sobering lesson. America cannot keep an unpopular regime in power indefinitely. Any popular regime will be popular because it does what its population wants, not what America wants. I see a strong parallel in Egypt. We cannot keep Mubarak in power if the people of Egypt don't want him. If nothing else, the Egyptian army itself will turn against him, as parts of it already have. When his rule ends, the US will not have a particularly compliant state. I see those as the choices. Neither is all that promising for those who want to impose US interests there, but supporting the people, and not the government, of Egypt is, to me, the obvious moral choice, and more in our long-term interest of peace and stability in a critical region.
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 31, 2011 - 01:54pm PT
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Both Islam and Christianity have propagated through the sword.
I strongly disagree that Christianity's main propogation was through the sword -- at least not through the swords of Christians. The way of Christian expansion was lit by burning martyrs.
John
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 31, 2011 - 02:00pm PT
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John-
A good post. Rational, at least.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 31, 2011 - 02:00pm PT
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I know our support of dictators have often ended very, very badly.
And your Japan example doesn't really work well.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 31, 2011 - 02:09pm PT
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John-
What were the Crusades, other than spreading the faith by means of the sword? Also, in the 1500's the Church of Rome suppressed Protestantism by force. Maybe not the sword, but a barbeque at the stake was equally effective.
Jacques de Molay was slowly roasted alive over a slow fire for "heresy" as the leader of the Knights Templar, and Gnosticism was supressed by Church violence. By the way, the de Molay roast job was done on a Friday the 13th, which has led to the fear of that particular day of the calendar.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 31, 2011 - 02:12pm PT
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Fatty-
Yes, I agree with Pat Buchanan and Rand Paul. Maybe a bit of neo-isolationism is better than neo-conservatism? We should STFO.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 31, 2011 - 02:16pm PT
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No it doesn't work well fatty.
There isn't a situation similar to Japan going on in the Mideast. Neocons have been hyping their so-called C of C as some kind of fight against a new Axis of Evil, and it just isn't so.
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KlimbingKafir
climber
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Jan 31, 2011 - 02:29pm PT
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Tarek,
I was under no illusion of trying to write any sort of history of the region, just trying to give some perspective from the ground here.
These issues are embedded incredibly deeply into religious and national psyches. 1948 resonates strongly with a majority of people here in Syria as well as all other countries in the region I have visited and worked in.
There is no simple solution, especially from armchair generals painting the situation in black and white. Living here and having family on the receiving end of a million dollar cruise missile will change anyone's perspective.
And I agree, there are amazing peace activists at work inside Israel as well as many outside. Those are the voices we should listen to.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 31, 2011 - 02:31pm PT
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A.C.--
Huckabee is a dick. Another discredited neo-con. Doesn't stand a chance of getting the nomination.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 31, 2011 - 02:52pm PT
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I strongly disagree that Christianity's main propogation was through the sword -- at least not through the swords of Christians. The way of Christian expansion was lit by burning martyrs. The grotesque violence done over the last 1,700 years by Christians in the name of their faith, and still being done or advocated by some extremists, speaks for itself. Not that Christians are any better, or worse, than any other faith or belief system in their willingness to resort to violence.
Yes, some brands of Christianity like torturing and burning "heretics", to 'purify' their communities and beliefs. But most violence in the name of Christianity has been good old-fashioned war, repression and imperialism. And there's been lots.
Virtually all wars are promoted at the time as "Christian" wars - even those where both sides are some brand of Christianity, or even the same brand.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 31, 2011 - 02:53pm PT
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dirtbag,
How about the Islamic leadership of Sudan staging genocide of Christians and Animalists in Darfur?? Yes, I know there was some oil involved also????
I would have sent in US troops.
Would you go to war for anything, I thought not. Whirled Peas, you are naive.
The evil one
Bullsh#t. I've supported going after the Taliban in Afghanistan. Why? Because they attacked us. I also think we bungled that badly.
I do not support propping up dictators. It has worked against us. Wake up Fatty. You are the Naive one, you and your neocon bombs for peace fantasy. Anyone who doesn't have a throbbing boner for war must be a peacenik in your book, because you are an extremist.
For all your name dropping and supposed knowledge, you are living in fantasyland, a very destructive one.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 31, 2011 - 02:58pm PT
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And btw Fatty, STFU about your reserve deputy experience.
It is not the same as being in a war. Join up and quit getting other people's kids killed for a change.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 31, 2011 - 02:59pm PT
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So, welcome to agreeing with me on "The Clash of Civilizations".
Delusional horeshit "theory."
I laugh heartily at you when you describe yourself as a "realist" and a mideast whiz.
Many others do too.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 31, 2011 - 03:22pm PT
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The replies to my previous post don't really respond to that post, which read:
"I strongly disagree that Christianity's main propogation was through the sword -- at least not through the swords of Christians. The way of Christian expansion was lit by burning martyrs." [emphasis added].
The replies talk about wars purportedly started in the name of Christianity. My comment was about the propagation of Christianity. Wars did a poor job of propagating Christianity. The first three hundred years of Christianity had nothing of the sort -- other than the spilling of the blood of the Christians. Even after the conversion of Constantine, the Roman Empire did nothing of the sorts of atrocities done to Christians prior to that conversion. Indeed, Julian the Apostate went back to worshipping Jupiter.
In contrast, Islam was a faith whose initial spread came through violence. The Crusades, which came several hundred years later, converted virtually no one. Indeed, the Crusades were directly responsible for the timing of the fall of Constantinople, which was Christian, although the Battle of Manzikert against the Seljuks sealed its fate as a territorial power.
I accept the argument that the actions of European invaders in the new world were violent, who often justified that violence as a purported attempt to convert the natives, but that was not the initial history of the church or the faith, nor is it its practice now.
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 31, 2011 - 04:36pm PT
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My feelings were right on the money about Mohamed ElBaradei and future of Egypt
Looks like you're right, at least for now. Popular movements get messy, though, so we'll need to wait and see how it turns out.
John
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2011 - 04:41pm PT
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Give some time and Saudi will be next
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jan 31, 2011 - 04:59pm PT
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If so there will be a run on electric cars.
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2011 - 05:39pm PT
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ohhh man
American Jewish leader: ElBaradei a 'stooge for Iran'
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 31, 2011 - 07:15pm PT
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Who cares what the Neocon scumbag "Michael Ledeen' says?
That idiot has less credibility than Richard Perle.....
Yeah, but what's that saying about a broken clock...?
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 31, 2011 - 07:45pm PT
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Michael Ledeen isn't doing the choosing--the Egyptians are...
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 31, 2011 - 07:54pm PT
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A.C.-
Wouldn't say it's Neocons; look at the OP's comment above to identify the source. Then again, Neocon's are in agreement.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Jan 31, 2011 - 07:56pm PT
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Fatty?
Ahad aham wrote:
"the muslim brotherhood is a responsible organization that has renounced terrorist tactics years ago. please do not confuse them with al-Qaeda. efforts will be made by some to blur that distinction."
Your response;
“Except when they blew up the Coptic Christian church two weeks ago.
You libs will believe any lie told to you, Bwahahahahahahahaha
How naive.
Oh, the #2 Al-Queda guy Al-Zawahiri was the founder of the modern Muslim Brotherhood.
The evil one”
Sure you were there Fatty for doing/did your time, Remember? Or is it I can’t recall?
LAPD’s Rampart's CRASH squad. Remember them or can’t recall?
Or the widespread corruption in LASD narcotics squads in back in the 90’s.
“An ex-Los Angeles County sheriff's deputy, convicted earlier of skimming drug money, testified Wednesday that corruption was widespread among narcotics officers and said he took part in beatings, thefts and perjury through much of his 14-year career as a deputy.
Testifying in the federal money-skimming trial of two sheriff's deputies, Eufrasio G. Cortez told jurors that he and other deputies often brutalized prisoners, used excessive force on suspects and routinely lied to protect fellow officers” Source LA Times Victor Merina March 19 ‘92
Police abuse
Police brutality is the intentional use of excessive force, usually physical, but potentially also in the form of verbal attacks and psychological intimidation, by a police officer. It is in some instances triggered by "contempt of cop", i.e., perceived disrespect towards police officers.
Police corruption is a specific form of police misconduct designed to obtain financial benefits and/or career advancement for a police officer or officers in exchange for not pursuing, or selectively pursuing, an investigation or arrest.
Police misconduct refers to inappropriate actions taken by police officers in connection with their official duties. Police misconduct can lead to a miscarriage of justice and sometimes involves discrimination.
Then there are the favor’s that your “chief” did for Paris Hilton when he let her out when he found out she donated $$ to his campaign.
So Fatty, let’s see a few bad apples maybe 10%, 15% and 20% being the most that are corrupt, on the take, of course then there is the “code of silence” for your service and still continues.
US military has them too. A few bad apples.
Same with the Muslim Brotherhood there are or might be a few but would say less than your brotherhood.
And as for your security details and you once had the chance to shake President Cheney’s passing hand, gave you a wink and said “good job, young man, keep up the work”, and then your Congressional contacts, best friends with the Pentagon, did not say but implied Mossad, Who else: too many?
Oh! And then there are your sources: cnn.com and the sfgate.com for your expert ME knowledge of the region.
Fatty: The Walter Mitty of ST.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 31, 2011 - 08:01pm PT
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A.C.-
Bingo! Give the man a----Camalot?
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 31, 2011 - 08:06pm PT
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Just a question: Has anyone actually ever seen Bin Laden? Not "tapes" or "videos," but "in the flesh?"
My impression is he's the perennial "red herring," or "stooge in the box" who gets trotted out when the CIA needs a fall guy.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 31, 2011 - 08:07pm PT
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If Mubarak is such a dictator, then why are people being allowed to protest. A dictator would not stand for that.
He is not a dictator, so can we stop using that term. He is probably one of the most moderate Islamic heads of state.
I think that is why we try to work with him so much. He ain't the best leader in the world. But it's better than most alternatives. And yeah, the Muslim Brotherhood is not a band of great people. They can publicly say whatever they want, but look at their actions.
http://bigpeace.com/cbrim/2011/01/30/muslim-brotherhood-deception-they-say-different-things-in-english-and-arabic/
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 31, 2011 - 08:13pm PT
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A.C.-
Of course I knew that! Why do think I made that point referring to the OP.
I'm simply being a bit more circumspect than U.R.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 31, 2011 - 08:24pm PT
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Now that the name calling has begun, I think I'll retire for the evening. I was hoping that this discussion could remain civil and informational.
Fatty is an ex AIPAC member, Crowley! What do you expect from his viewpoint? In that case, it's a matter of feeling threatened.
Maybe I'll just "take a break" for a while, and let emotions calm down.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 31, 2011 - 08:36pm PT
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When an "overpopulated" country has very few natural resources, it is working on a real time basis. That the Egyptian government was able to achieve any kind of economic growth - is a wonder. It did so, I would say, because of a perception of stability. Apparently there are 50,000 americans there. That many expatriots suggests an atmosphere of stability.
How Mubarak was able to achieve that I know not. I can only guess. It has to have involved severe measures.
That is not to say what was gained was worth the price. Such is a decision each individual has to make. Those are individuals out on the streets of Cairo.
Not unlike the decision we have to make that our treating corporations as individuals but with none of the duties imposed on individuals - is good for us.
If you desire change you need to deal with the consequences of that change. And those consequences are never predictable.
Being human is such a bother.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 31, 2011 - 08:44pm PT
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If you desire change you need to deal with the consequences of that change. And those consequences are never predictable.
Which is why 'change' there may or may not be such a good idea. Everyone is acting like change is going to be great. It could get a whole lot worse...Very likely IMO.
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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Jan 31, 2011 - 09:56pm PT
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Just a question: Has anyone actually ever seen Bin Laden? Not "tapes" or "videos," but "in the flesh?"
My impression is he's the perennial "red herring," or "stooge in the box" who gets trotted out when the CIA needs a fall guy.
Bin Laden is flipping burgers with Elvis somewhere in Minnesota; it's a well known fact!
TY
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 31, 2011 - 10:00pm PT
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If Mubarak is such a dictator, then why are people being allowed to protest. A dictator would not stand for that.
He is not a dictator, so can we stop using that term. He is probably one of the most moderate Islamic heads of state.
And we all know what a bastion of fair elections, free press, thriving opposition parties, and respect, human rights Egypt has been the last 30 years.
Oh...and I'm sure his son-successor gives a sh#t about those things. Monarchies do, don't they?
F*#k the Egyptian people as long as our interests are served.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 31, 2011 - 10:34pm PT
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Fatty-
I'm aware that there have been statements to that effect re: A.C. It's just an issue that both of my college roomates were (and still are) Jewish. I just don't like to get into public mudslinging contests where racial/ethnic innuendos are involved. It doesn't matter if you guys are Martians, as far as I'm concerned. I became involved in this "discussion group" from an intellectual interest, and a true concern for Human Rights, not the kind that get bandied about by various Internationalist organizations. I'd really like nothing better than to lift a glass or more with you guys at the next Facelift. Bluey too. This is supposed to be a friendly "get together" in a public forum, not a bloodbath.
I really have serious concerns regarding what's going on in the ME, since the oil issue is the elephant in the room. Not just for "driving aaround," but since I retired to ranching I see the importance of petroleum to agriculture and our economic well being.
The "present administration" is totally unfriendly towards drilling for more oil both onshore and offshore, and is in the kindest words I can find, totally fukking everything up. In Casper, Wyoming, it is claimed that it is the Oil Capital of the USA. It's had an impact on our state.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 31, 2011 - 10:43pm PT
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I just was getting a little concerned at the heightened rhetoric! I'll lift a glass with Crowley, too.
I guess if we were in Africa and still primitive, instead of glasses we'd be lifting spears with the other guy's balls hangining on them.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 31, 2011 - 10:43pm PT
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Change is no good eh? That is the hallmark of conservative thinking, in a nut shell.
DMT
I think you understood my point but wish to distort for your own means.
Change is not always bad, not by a long stretch. But IN THIS CASE, it's like a box chocolates, with half of the box being rotten. Again, IMO.
And everyone is ASSUMING that democracy will take over. Where is that guarantee?
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 31, 2011 - 10:48pm PT
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What everyone on both sides is saying about Mubarek is that yes he's an a-hole, but some are saying, but he's OUR a-hole. Hmmmm.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Jan 31, 2011 - 11:15pm PT
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"Man shall know commonwealth again.
From bitter searching of the heart, we rise
to play a greater part," Leonard Cohen
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 31, 2011 - 11:31pm PT
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And yes, our interests should always come first, we are Americans first.
So here's a question for you Jeff. Assume you're right about this. Assume
that as an American citizen, you should always put American interests
first. Now, push just a little bit against the walls of the tiny box you
live in, and think about what that implies. If it's right for an American
to put American interests first, is not right for a Brazilian to put
Brazilian interests first? Or an Egyptian to put Egyptian interests first?
Or a Cambodian or Chinese or Iranian or...
Which leaves us playing stupid schoolboy games. My team is better than your
team because its my team. If you'd been born in Teheran, you'd be screaming
for "Death to America."
Patriotism and religion are the two biggest obstacles to the path of peace
and human advancement.
But worse even than the patriots and religious zealots are those whose joy
is to profit from the carnage.
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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broken brain said"The "present administration" is totally unfriendly towards drilling for more oil both onshore and offshore, and is in the kindest words I can find, totally fukking everything up. In Casper, Wyoming, it is claimed that it is the Oil Capital of the USA. It's had an impact on our state."
Absolutely right brokenbrain, Obama is singlehandedly responsible for the sharp decline in US oil production thats been going on since domestic oil peaked in 1970. He's been sabotaging american oil production since he was 10. I hear he's not even an American.....and he's Muslim....and....blah blah blah,
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Brokedown,
you should also know that Crowley is a Jew, just very angry about it for some reason.
The evil one
I do not believe the he is a jew part to be true. Jewish people have led America and often the world in deep, philosophical and complex thinking. Crowleys continued foul mouth 2 swear word replies to most posts he responds too belies any scene of intelligence. Most idiot single and double digit IQ rednecks from the deep south display more intelligence.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Wow! Maybe you ought to come out to Wyoming and say that in a bar in Casper sometime?
I'm sure you would be the "hit" of the party.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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The represive regimes provided the powder for the blast, but Ben Bernanke and ethanol subsidies applied the match to the fuse.
Commodities are priced in dollars, and the Federal Reserve has been overproducing dollars for more than two years. Consequently, emerging markets throughout the world -- and the food sector in particular -- are suffering from rising inflation.
The CRB food index is up an incredible 36 percent over the past year, including 8 percent year-to-date. Raw materials are up 23 percent in the past year. Inflation breakouts have occurred in China, among various Asian Tigers, and in India, Brazil, and other Latin American countries. Even Britain and Germany are registering higher inflation readings.
In dollar terms, the price of wheat has soared 114 percent over the past year. Corn has surged 88 percent. These are incredible numbers.
And let’s not forget that the world’s poor are the hardest hit by food-price inflation. They literally can’t afford to buy bread. It brings to mind the French Revolution in the 18th century. When you see this kind of mass protest in the streets, spreading from country to country, you see a pattern that cannot be explained by local conditions alone.
The dollar is the world’s reserve currency. And the rise of dollar food prices is a global phenomenon. It is a monetary phenomenon, as much as anything.
And that’s why one can argue that the worldwide revolt against soaring food prices is an unintended consequence of U.S. Fed policy. That policy is aimed at reigniting inflation here at home. But unwanted dollars circulating worldwide are hitting foreign inflation rates first. We may well catch this inflation virus before long.
To be fair, not all of the food inflation can be blamed on the Fed. A good part of this problem can also be placed at the doorstep of bipartisan U.S. policies to subsidize ethanol.
According to the Wall Street Journal, in 2001, only 7 percent of U.S. corn went to ethanol. By 2010, the ethanol share was 39 percent. So instead of growing wheat, our farmers are growing corn in order to cash in on ethanol subsidies. Egyptians who can’t afford to buy bread and have taken to the streets in protest might be very interested to know this.
Not even Al Gore still believes that ethanol provides any environmental benefits.
As the world watches events in Egypt play out, be mindful that if the U.S. fixed its mistaken monetary and energy policies, the forces of freedom and democratization would have an easier time of it in the rest of the world.
From Kudlow today.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Fatty-
Maybe he can't take this much excitement?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mubarak is 82, and in poor health. He has tried to groom a son as his successor, but with little success. The US has strong ties to the Egyptian government and military. It must have a long-standing succession plan or plans, and be quietly working on next steps. The appointment of a new vice-president, after decades without one, and the dismissal and replacement of much of the government, may be part of that. Whether that will have the support of the military, and people, is another thing.
My guess is that the Egyptian government and military, with tacit US backing, will do their best to stall. Let unrest die down a bit, with at least some reforms made. Then for Mubarak to step down, a new interim government to come in, and for there to be somewhat freer elections than is usual in Egypt, but not such as to allow religious parties to have power. Constitutional reform may help with that. Something like Turkey, perhaps.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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The scenario described is probably the best-case one for the US. Turkey has a functional democracy, a thriving economy, reasonable civil liberties (unless you're a Kurd), and a military which has something of a constitutional over-ride in case of extremist behaviour. Quite parallel to Israel, actually, although more moderate in foreign policy and treatment of minorities.
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dirtbag
climber
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"We pay him $1.3 billion a year but.. That money buys us security. Remember, we haven't had a single mummy attack.."
-Stephen Colbert
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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As for Israel, those who insist on living by the sword...
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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i thought he said he will die on egptian soil?
mubarak is irrelevent,
zionist power configuration, irrelevant
usa, irrevelent
egyptian people aren't backing down
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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If there weren't much more important things to contribute to, I'd suggest we raise some money to send FatTrad to Palestine. Sure, he can go to Israel and hang with the loudmouth radicals. But he'll also have to go to Sinai, Cairo, Amman, Baghdad, and Istanbul. He's never been to the Levant, and I bet would love to be there during a time of turmoil - rhetorical violence and apocalypse are after all his shtick. Let's see him live up to his loud mouth.
The fundraising won't extend to a bodyguard. But I bet if he opens his yap outside Israel, he'll at least get waterboarded.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Pharaoh's daughter may be in for a disappointing surprise.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Fatty
Better yet rather than go there, when Mubarak seeks asylum, why don't you invite him to stay with you. Then there will be two people that are ahole that suppress, mislead, ill-informed, corrupt, evil and profit off the poor. Then you can boost another famous person you are in contact with and has phone #.
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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obama administration sent Frank Wisner to coach mubarak on exit strategy & power transfer prior to that speech which is being called a joke by the people. Frank Sr. headed up office of special plans in the 50's, started Operation Mockingbird, and was instrumental in the overthrow of the democratically elected Mohammed Mossadegh in Iran. Nothing like the same old, warn out, tired hubris
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Frank Wisner must then be well over 80, if he had any real role in overthrowing Mossadegh in 1953, etc. Seems unlikely that he'd still be active.
Edit: Thanks - I understand now. Two Wisners, father and son. Not that the son is necessarily cut from the same cloth as the father.
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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his son Frank G wisner mh, if i recall corectly frank wisner sr later offed himself
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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here it is in wiky
In 1947 Wisner established Operation Mockingbird, a program to influence the domestic and foreign media. In 1952, he became head of the Directorate of Plans, with Richard Helms as his chief of operations. This office had control of 75% of the CIA budget. In this position, he was instrumental in supporting pro-American forces that toppled Mohammed Mossadegh in Iran and Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán in Guatemala [7] following the Alfhem affair.
and his son frank g
Frank George Wisner II (born 1938) is an American businessman and former diplomat. He is the son of Frank Wisner (1909 – 1965). On 31 January 2011, he was sent to Egypt by President Barack Obama to negotiate a resolution to the popular protests against the regime that have swept the country.[1] A White House spokesman said that Wisner had vast experience in the region as well as close relationships with many Egyptians in and out of government. The New York Times reports that he is a personal friend of Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak.[2]
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Omar Suleiman (Arabic: عمر سليمان; born July 2, 1936) is an Egyptian politician and military figure who was appointed Vice President of Egypt on 29 January 2011. Previously, he was Minister without Portfolio and Director of the Egyptian General Intelligence Directorate (EGID), the national intelligence agency, from 1993 to 2011. In his role as Director of EGID, the British Daily Telegraph dubbed him as "one of the world's most powerful spy chiefs". Foreign Policy magazine ranked him the Middle East's most powerful intelligence chief, ahead of Mossad chief Meir.
Dagan. Source Wikipedia just a short paragraph.
But get’s better:
Mubarak's deputy linked to secret CIA program
Reputation of Omar Suleiman – Mubarak's first VP – marred by allegations of torture, extracting false confessions
Middle East Online
By Dan De Luce - WASHINGTON
The man named by President Hosni Mubarak as his first ever deputy, Egyptian spy chief Omar Suleiman, reportedly orchestrated the brutal interrogation of terror suspects abducted by the CIA in a secret program condemned by rights groups.
His role in the shadows of the "war on terror" illustrates the ties that bind the United States and the Egyptian regime, as an unprecedented wave of protests against Mubarak present Washington with a difficult dilemma.
With Mubarak's rule in jeopardy, Suleiman was anointed vice president last week and is now offering wide ranging talks with the opposition in a bid to defuse the crisis.
Suleiman is a sophisticated operator who carried out sensitive truce negotiations with Israel and the Palestinians as well as talks among rival Palestinian factions, winning the praise of American diplomats.
For US intelligence officials, he has been a trusted partner willing to go after Islamist militants without hesitation, targeting homegrown radical groups after they carried out a string of attacks on foreigners.
A product of the US-Egyptian relationship, Suleiman underwent training in the 1980s at the John F. Kennedy Special Warfare School and Center at Fort Bragg in North Carolina.
As spy chief, Suleiman reportedly embraced the CIA's controversial "extraordinary rendition" program under ex-president George W. Bush, in which terror suspects snatched by the Americans were taken to Egypt and other countries without legal proceedings and subjected to harsh interrogations.
He "was the CIA’s point man in Egypt for rendition," Jane Mayer, author of "The Dark Side," wrote on the New Yorker's website.
After taking over as spy director, Suleiman oversaw an agreement with the United States in 1995 - during Bill Clinton's presidency -- that allowed suspected militants to be secretly transferred to Egypt for questioning.
Human rights groups charge the detainees have often faced torture and mistreatment in Egypt and elsewhere, accusing the US government of violating its own legal obligations by handing over suspects to regimes known for abuse.
In the run-up to the US invasion of Iraq in 2003, the CIA relied on Suleiman to accept the transfer of a detainee known as Ibn Sheikh al-Libi, who US officials hoped could prove a link between Iraq's Saddam Hussein and Al-Qaeda.
The suspect was bound and blindfolded and flown to Cairo, where the CIA believed their longtime ally Suleiman would ensure a successful interrogation, according to "The One Percent Doctrine" by author Ron Suskind.
A US Senate report in 2006 describes how the detainee was locked in a cage for hours and beaten, with Egyptian authorities pushing him to confirm alleged connections between Al-Qaeda and Saddam.
Libi eventually told his interrogators that the then Iraqi regime was moving to provide Al-Qaeda with biological and chemical weapons.
When the then US secretary of state Colin Powell made the case for war before the United Nations, he referred to details of Libi's confession.
The detainee eventually recanted his confession.
In "Ghost Plane," a book about the rendition program, journalist Stephen Grey writes that Egypt faced regular public criticism from lawmakers in Congress about its rights.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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President Barack Obama will speak about the turmoil in Egypt this evening.
Don't look for anything encouraging or leadership.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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I distorted nothing. Allow me to summarize:
1. You are terrified of the muslim brotherhood.
2. You think a dictator who tortures his own is preferable to the alternatives you envision most likely.
Me? I don't hold out any hopes for democracy in Egypt at all. But its none of my business really. Exporting democracy at the point of a gun is no different than exporting terrorism, or religion, or cupcakes, at the point of a gun.
Yall want free elections in Egypt? Head on over there and affect change!
DMT
Yes you do distort what I say.
When did I say I was terrified of the MB? They pose no direct threat to me. I dislike thier ideology and what they stand for.
I DO hold out hope for democracy eveywhere, not just Egypt. It just seems that democracy is incompatible with hardline Islamic republics. Egypt was not really that, and hence the hope.
Yeah, democracy at the barrel of gun is not a good thing. But was that even suggessted in Egypt? Did it occur in the past? No. Relations with Egypt were done through diplomacy and the promise of 'foreign aid' (guns).
I never called for free elections in Egypt, but would welcome them. So again your typically mundane, "You wantit, you go do it" crap.
That's like saying if you profess higher taxes, then pay them yourself, and leave me alone.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Their calls for jihad, their hatred of Israel, and their desires to spread Sharia throughout the West.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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lost,
I've never expected anything from Obama to be encouraging or enlightening.
Yeah, I think you two may have different expectations of those two things, Fatty.
Donald Trump had some choice words on this today. Trump 2012!!! Ya outta here him talk about trade imbalances with China, India, and Mexico.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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No military service is nothing like that at all,
I never said military action was necessary to support their gov't. AGAIN!!! You twist my f*#king words. You are stuck on this obsession that I never served. And as a result, I should have no opinions on geo-politics where I never advocated military action. Or even when I did.
Get over it, dude!
This is a discussion. Get it??? People's opinions, whether it involves US military action or not. Not everybody serves in the military, but I'd hope you agree that everybody is entitled to an opinion.
Dingus is the only one who can have any righteous say on military matters because 'he served'. That's f*#king weak. And you go on to imply that I have no regard for troops because I never 'served'. Ohhhhh.
F*#king weak.
EDIT:
No military service is nothing like that at all, but I suppose its understandable in some weird neoconservative post modern hippy way... comparing death to taxes, lol.
You obviously either don't get the analogy, or can't refute it...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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It may be that the US, and Obama, will get considerable credit for a relatively peaceful transition to something like a democracy in Egypt, even if its a military-backed democracy with a limited role for the religious. Starting with Obama's speech to the Arab and Islamic world in Cairo in June 2009 (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/05/opinion/05fri1.html?scp=1&sq=obama%20cairo%20speech&st=Search);, and now speaking strongly but constructively in favour of change. I suspect there has been a lot of work by US diplomats behind the scenes, to learn about what was happening, and support a constructive transition.
After hard-earned lessons in Iran, Iraq, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Chile, and elsewhere, the US may have done the right thing in terms of one of its dictators, and democracy.
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jstan
climber
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This analyst at the Brookings Institute asks a couple of interesting questions but suggests negative feelings in the ME about past western influence will not be reduced were the US to make the present situation about us.
If I may be so bold as to paraphrase this content. What we appear to be doing may damage us more than whatever it is we are actually doing.
Another commentator on the site argues the most immediate effect of the uprising is on the US/Israeli relationship. Egypt formed an anchor for the policies of both countries. Our bilateral relationship necessarily needs to adjust.
From the Brookings Institute website:
Don't Make Egyptian Upheaval About Washington
Wednesday February 2, 2011
Shibley Telhami, Nonresident Senior Fellow, Foreign Policy, Saban Center for Middle East Policy
January 31, 2011 —
Ever since Egypt’s public demonstrations calling for regime change began, Washington has been debating what the White House should or should not say, as if American words in the middle of an upheaval that is not our doing can affect the outcome in Egypt and turn the tide of Arab public opinion in favor of the United States.
But if there is any lesson to be learned from Tunisia, and from the U.S. policy in the region in the past few years, it is that these historic and indigenous events in Egypt must not become about the United States. One reason the Tunisian revolution succeeded in toppling the president without major ramifications for the U.S. is that the revolt was not viewed as directly related to the West.
When the Bush administration used the Iraq War as a vehicle to spread democratic change in the Middle East, anger with the United States on foreign policy issues — particularly Iraq and the Arab-Israeli conflict — and deep suspicion of U.S. intentions put the genuine democracy advocates in the region on the defensive. The outcome has been that, every year since the Iraq War began, polls of Arabs revealed their sense that the Middle East is even less democratic than before.
As we witness the remarkable and inspiring events in both Tunisia and Egypt, one has to wonder whether these events could have taken place even earlier had there not been the diversion of the Iraq War — and whether these upheavals might have swept away Saddam Hussein’s dictatorship without shots being fired from the outside.
Even in Iran, where there is obvious public opposition to the clerical regime, as indicated by the contestation over the 2009 presidential election, one wonders whether the Iranian people might succeed if the regime were robbed of its ability to point fingers at the West.
The United States, for its own sake, must side with people standing for self-determination and freedom, who are prepared to risk their lives for them.
But let’s have no illusion about the effect of what we say on the outcome in Egypt — or throughout the Arab world. Events in Egypt are mostly out of our control. It’s not up to the United States to determine who the next president of Egypt will be. In any case, America’s inability to engineer political outcomes in the region — or even predict them — has been demonstrated in events ranging from the outcome of the Iraq War itself to contests for power in Lebanon and the Palestinian territories.
Whether President Barack Obama publicly calls for President Hosni Mubarak to resign will very likely have little effect on Arab and Egyptian public opinion.
To be sure, many democracy advocates want to see a more forceful U.S. voice on behalf of regime change in Cairo. But others, including those in places supporting an Egyptian revolution, like the Al Jazeera network, are already asking whether the Egyptian upheaval was instigated by Washington — with some “evidence” presented.
If and when the United States does take a forceful position, we must have no illusion about how it will be spun by many Arabs. Washington is likely to be seen as attempting to control events — moving to pre-empt the public will and engineering an outcome to its liking. It will quite likely be mocked by Hassan Nasrallah of Hezbollah — just as he mocked France for how quickly it abandoned its client after Zine al-Abidine Ben Ali’s departure from Tunisia.
There is a sense in U.S. national discourse that the anger with the United States is only about its support for authoritarian governments in the region. It is partly about that. But it’s deeper and more complex — as we have seen in the attitudes of the Iraqi people, many of whom were happy to get Washington’s support to throw off their dictator but were still unhappy with U.S. foreign policy.
Resolving Washington’s dilemma in its relationship with authoritarian rulers in the region will not be addressed by White House speeches or even the elimination of U.S. foreign aid.
As long as the United States has a heavy military footprint in the region, is fighting wars in the Middle East and is invested in the outcome of the Arab-Israeli conflict, it will continue to prefer cooperative regimes over a public will that goes against it.
The Iraq War was most telling. Even as the United States was waging a war partly in the name of democracy, the vast majority of the Arab public passionately opposed it, and even many governments counseled against it — largely for fear of public opposition.
But we insisted and we rewarded and we threatened — and got our way with most. The net result was that those governments that went against the will of the overwhelming majority, which made them even more insecure, reacted in the way they knew best: They became even more repressive.
Today, our closest institutional relationships in the Arab world, driven by strategic U.S. priorities, are military to military, intelligence to intelligence, security service to security service. These agencies are the anchors of repression in the region, regardless of who rules at the top. Given that repression now appears to be failing, this is a moment for a bigger assessment of U.S. policy in the region — beyond what happens in Egypt.
The United States must always stand for freedom and self-determination, and our leaders must articulate that — even when the outcome is uncertain and our interests are at stake.
Still, Egypt is not just another country in the Middle East. It has been the anchor of the U.S. approach to the region since the 1970s, and what happens in Cairo will inevitably have consequences.
Have no illusion: Egypt is already profoundly changed — no matter who will be at the top tomorrow or next year. But we must resist the temptation to insert ourselves in an environment in which we have little control. Washington must, of course, prepare for contingencies and assess ways to protect its interests regardless of the outcome.
But today, to honor those seeking freedom in the Arab world and the principles for which we stand, America must resist the temptation to make the Egyptian uprising about us.
http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/2011/0131_egypt_telhami.aspx
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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There are factions at work this morning in Cairo who plainly don't want things to simmer down.
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2011 - 02:04pm PT
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I smell big war in ME sometimes in 2012
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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green light from obama.
mubarak has released his dogs.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Looks like Israel has sent in their paid Goon Squads helping with Mubarak’s Security Forces, thugs and police to create unrest and create chaos to reverse the freedom Egypt deserves. They want it back to status quo so Islamic parties cannot have a say in or in taking control. The US is in the same position, so don’t be surprised we are creating it too.
Best way to see or who they are is by the shoes they wear.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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1939-1954Main article: History of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt (1939-1954)
In response to intense pressure from the Brotherhood's younger members, some historians believe that al-Banna accepted, albeit reluctantly, the creation of its military wing (the "secret apparatus"), but according to some authorities managed to keep it mainly inactive throughout World War II.[citation needed] During the 1940s, the Brotherhood continued to grow rapidly, and is thought to have had over a million members by the end of the decade.
Links to the Nazis began during the 1930s and were close during the Second World War, involving agitation against the British, espionage and sabotage, as well as support for terrorist activities orchestrated by Haj Amin el-Hussaini in British Mandate Palestine, as a wide range of declassified documents from the British, American and Nazi German governmental archives, as well as from personal accounts and memoires from that period, confirm.[2] Reflecting this connection the Muslim Brotherhood also disseminated Hitler's Mein Kampf and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion widely in Arab translations, helping to deepen and extend already existing hostile views about Jews and Western societies generally.[3]
After the war, it continued to play a leading role in the nationalist movement, which swept the Arab world. Although the Brotherhood's leaders remained committed to a nonviolent approach, the secret apparatus began to disobey the leadership and carry out terrorist attacks inside Egypt.[citation needed] The organisation's increasing popularity led Egypt's pro-British ruling elite (which was still largely under British control) to consider it a threat to their power.[citation needed]
In November 1948 police seized an automobile containing the documents and plans of what is thought to be the Brotherhood's `secret apparatus` with names of its members. The seizure was preceded by an assortment of bombings and assassination attempts by the apparatus. Subsequently 32 of its leaders are arrested and its offices raided.[4] The next month the Egyptian Prime Minister of Egypt, Mahmud Fahmi Nokrashi, ordered the dissolution of the Brotherhood.
On December 28, 1948 Egypt's prime minister was assassinated by Brotherhood member and veterinary student Abdel Meguid Ahmed Hassan, in what is thought to have been retaliation for the government crackdown. A month and half later Al-Banna himself was killed in Cairo by men believed to be government agents and/or supporters of the murdered premier. Al-Banna was succeeded as head of the Brotherhood by Hassan Isma'il al-Hudaybi, a former judge. Hudaybi attempted to abolish the secret apparatus, but it continued to operate without the leadership's knowledge.
The Brotherhood supported the military coup that overthrew the monarchy in 1952, but the junta, though popular at first, was unwilling to share power or lift martial law; it quickly lost its public support,[citation needed] and began to provoke confrontations with the Brotherhood.[citation needed]
In 1952 members of the Muslim Brotherhood are accused of taking part in arson that destroyed some "750 buildings" in downtown Cairo — mainly night clubs, theatres, hotels, and restaurants frequented by British and other foreigners — "that marked the end of the liberal, progressive, cosmopolitan" Egypt.[5]
Terrorists since their begginings Crawley.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Why such an incredible fear of the Brotherhood?
Egyptians will never let them take over.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Why such an incredible fear of the Brotherhood?
Egyptians will never let them take over.
Yeah and the Palestinians would never elect Hamas to take over the territory, right?
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Muslim leaders nervous about congressional hearing
Politico
© January 19, 2011
By Ben Smith and Bryon Tau
WASHINGTON
American Muslim leaders, who have struggled to present a clear public voice or organize politically in the decade since Sept. 11, are increasingly apprehensive about the direction U.S. Rep. Pete King will take when he convenes hearings next month on the threat posed by radical Islam in America.
King, chairman of the Homeland Security Committee, plans to focus on the Times Square bombing attempt and the Fort Hood shooting, both involving American-born Muslims, as well as other incidents and on what he sees as the failure of Muslim leadership to combat extremism.
King has been critical of the Obama administration for failing to take the threat of domestic terrorism seriously and has been sparring with Muslim leaders since soon after Sept. 11 for not taking their own steps to combat it.
“The leadership of the community is not geared to cooperation,” King told POLITICO.
His upcoming hearings have caused deep concern and consternation among various Arab and Muslim advocacy groups across the country that fear King’s witness list will help define, for the purposes of the American public conversation, which Muslim leaders are legitimate and which should be regarded as extremists.
“You can definitely say overall the hearings are seen with great apprehension, suspicion and distaste — sometimes sorrow,” said Khaled Abou El Fadl, an expert on Islam and Islamic law at the University of California, Los Angeles. “These hearings have a history of stigmatizing whole groups of people.”
King insists that the goal of his hearings is not to stigmatize Muslims but to confront the threat of homegrown terrorism and to explore the role of Muslim leaders in dealing with it.
“This isn’t a question of scoring points,” said King. “It’s the fact that there’s a real threat coming from this attempted radicalization of the community and it’s, in many ways, coming from overseas.”
In a move that will come as a relief to Muslim leaders, King told POLITICO that he’s not planning to call as witnesses such Muslim community critics as the Investigative Project on Terrorism’s Steve Emerson and Jihad Watch’s Robert Spencer, who have large followings among conservatives but are viewed as antagonists by many Muslims.
King aims, he said, to call retired law enforcement officials and people with “the real life experience of coming from the Muslim community.” Rep. Keith Ellison, the first Muslim to serve in the House and a critic of the hearings, will likely be a minority witness, according to both King and the Minnesota Democrat.
The focus, King said, will be on — among other topics — reported complaints from Somali Muslims that the Council on American-Islamic Relations and other groups discouraged them from talking to the authorities about young men who left to fight for the Islamist cause in Somalia and on cases like that of the imam who — while ostensibly cooperating with the FBI — allegedly tipped off a would-be subway bomber off as investigators closed in.
Muslim leaders respond that American Muslims have been key to an array of terror investigations, beginning with the Muslim street vendor who first noticed the smoking car in Times Square.
“I hope my colleague from New York .... does not make the mistake of trying to paint all Muslims with a broad, extremist brush,” Rep. Andre Carson (D-Ind.), the other Muslim in Congress, said in an e-mail to POLITICO. “Because for one, that’s not an accurate depiction of the millions of peace-loving Muslims, and two, our national security depends on us forging strong partnerships with people across the Muslim world.”
Possible witnesses, according to King, include Dutch critic of Islam Ayaan Hirsi Ali and M. Zuhdi Jasser, president and founder of Arizona-based American Islamic Forum for Democracy. Jasser is a sharp critic of leading American Muslim groups, whose agenda he calls “Islamist.”
“We have to admit as Muslims that we need a 12-step program,” Jasser told POLITICO. “The first step is acceptance.”
“If they don’t see us leading a charge for reform, they’re going to see us as part of the problem,” he said.
Jasser is a rare Muslim voice welcoming the hearings. Other community leaders who spoke to POLITICO are afraid that their fragmented community is not ready for this fight.
“This could be a very damaging hearing. It really could be something that spreads a lot of vitriol and poison, and I’m worried about it, and I don’t understand why the community has decided to allow itself to be so unorganized,” said Hussein Ibish, former communications director at the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee who is now a senior fellow at the American Task Force on Palestine.
“Nearly all Muslim organizations need ... new political leadership, simply because most of the leadership continues to be from the immigrant community. English continues to be not their first language, and their primary education was obtained elsewhere, before they came to the United States,” said Fadl. “Eventually, they’ll learn.”
One group that is ready to debate the likes of King and Jasser on cable — CAIR — has not been invited to testify.
“If I saw the hearings were sober and objective, I’d have no concerns,” said Corey Saylor, CAIR’s legislative director. “But King is opting for a political circus approach.”
The group, which has roots in the Hamas-allied Islamic Association for Palestine in the 1980s, was named as an unindicted cohort in the federal prosecution of the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development for allegedly conspiring to aid Hamas.
And though it fiercely denies any affinity to radicalism — and while the latter designation was formally lifted last year — those two facts have put it largely beyond the political pale.
“No one in Washington will deal with CAIR except the [American Civil Liberties Union] — which deals with everyone,” lamented a prominent official at one putatively allied group, adding that the group’s past makes it “radioactive.”
Saylor dismissed the alleged Hamas link as a “smear,” as well as the claim that community leaders don’t encourage cooperation with the authorities.
“We consistently advise constitutionally informed cooperation with law enforcement. That is pretty standard for a civil rights group,” he said in an e-mail.
But between CAIR on one end and Jasser and Hirsi Ali on the other is a wide abyss in terms of organized political activity — despite the efforts of half of a dozen small groups.
Organizations like the Islamic Society of North America represent, in theory, hundreds of thousands of American Muslims. But many of those Muslims have little interest in political activity and little ability to project themselves on the political stage. Officials of the society declined to comment on the King hearings.
And the community remains defined as much by sectarian, ethnic and political divisions between groups as by what they have in common.
The community’s most prominent figure at the moment, Ground Zero mosque planner Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, is the representative of the minority Sufi sect whose ties to interfaith leaders are stronger than those to his fellow Muslims.
The disorganization is, at the moment, the subject of broad hand-wringing across the Muslim political leadership.
“There’s a lot of flailing around,” said Suhail Khan, former Bush administration official and senior fellow for Christian-Muslim Understanding at the Institute for Global Engagement, describing the Muslim community’s response to the Ground Zero mosque and other recent controversies, like a Florida pastor’s vow to burn a Quran.
Some blame critics of Islam for stigmatizing the community. “You’re dealing with an emerging community that’s still trying to find its political voice,” said Ellison. “There’s not that many new American communities [that] have an organized opposition out to thwart them.”
Others blame CAIR.
“They’ve looked like they’re not as strongly behind counter-terrorism polices that needed to happen,” said Mohamed Elibiary, Department of Homeland Security consultant and Dallas-based community activist.
“That makes them a very easy target,” said Elibiary. “We ought to have some kind of national representative body that then can represent us collectively, as opposed to today.”
“We haven’t matured,” said Elibiary. “The Jewish community didn’t get there until the 50s.”
There has been talk, two officials of Muslim organizations said, of setting up a politically palatable rival to CAIR, though that plan hasn’t been fully realized.
In the meantime, the response will likely be led by a group that many on Capitol Hill choose to ignore — the Muslim Public Affairs Council.
“If we think that it’s political theater, we’re also willing to address this in a very public way. We’ve got a list ready of various law enforcement agents from the local to the federal level who have talked about the work that Muslim Americans have done,” said Haris Tarin, director of the group’s Washington office.
King, for his part, insists the goal of the hearings, which are scheduled for late February, is not to paint an an entire community with a broad brush. “The overwhelming majority of Muslims,” he said, “are outstanding Americans.”
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Bluering, 80 million Egyptians used to relative freedom and prosperity would never go for Sharia Law.
Trying to compare a small region locked in, isolated, and embargoed by Israel and ripe for control by Hamas to Egypt is not very bright of you.
Smarten up Bluey.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Trying to compare a small region locked in, isolated, and embargoed by Israel and ripe for control by Hamas to Egypt is not very bright of you.
Have you forgotten that Egypt was literally/geographically the other end of that embargo? Not a friend of Hamas, Mubarak was, young padawan.
Or is that your point? That Egypt was thrown under the bus (like so many in this admin.) to offer a 'relief valve' to Hamas and weapons into Gaza?
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corniss chopper
climber
not my real name
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Wonder what Sun Tzu would have done in Cairo?
Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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These camel guys are bad-asses.
I gotta get a camel.
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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but of course fatrad;
"It might seem surprising that Mubarak was so willing to defy the Obama administration’s clear hint that he sould quickly transition out of power. In fact, Mubarak’s slap in the face of President Obama will not be punished and it is nothing new. It shows again American toothlessness and weakness in the Middle East, and will encourage the enemies of the US to treat it with similar disdain."
http://www.juancole.com/2011/02/mubarak-defies-a-humiliated-america-emulating-netanyahu.html
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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mccain is just more of the same, even worse if thats possible
i strongly recommend all read coles piece inked 2 posts above
thank you
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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That's how everyone in Cairo drives.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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It might seem surprising that Mubarak was so willing to defy the Obama administration’s clear hint that he sould quickly transition out of power.
The hint wasn't to Mubarak. It was to the Egyptian and Arab publics, especially whoever forms the new government. The US doesn't care much any more what happens to Mubarak, as long as there is a reasonably orderly transition to a reasonably stable and somewhat better government that the US can live with. The US has concluded that there's not much point to backing a loser, and that in terms of future credibility, you don't want to be seen as doing so.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Did you know that the same day the riots were instigated, the entire Egpytian military command was in Washington at the State Dept's request for meetings?
Did you know tha El Baradei sits on the board of the Int'l Crisis Group along with Sandy 'burglar' Berger, George Soros, Javier Solana, and Brezhinski (Carter aid during Iran crisis) among others?
I wonder if Soros bet against their currency or went long on oil because he knew what was coming.
This crisis was instigated.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Most likely since Omar Suleiman was appointed V.P. he will take over. Israel will benefit as well as the US. [posted earlier in this post on his past]
Notice that tanks have not taken over and calm within the ranks. Military will agree for Suleiman for succession since they liked him at one point but that will change when he gets in.
Problem will be the that the Egyptian people did not rise up for bread alone, but for freedom, pluralism, dignity, national security and sovereignty is a sign that they will not agree to "President Suleiman" taking office. Apart from anything else, Suleiman has been an integral part of the misery and oppression that they have faced for the past thirty years.
Cannot be the same, things will become worse, the Egyptians need to push for free and fair elections themselves and the international community, including the US and Israel, must abide by their choice even if it includes the Muslim Brotherhood.
Something that Suleiman will have to deal with.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Yeah, Suleiman is not so bad. Could be worse. But then why get rid of Mubarak?
Crowley, would you like to see the MB as a part of the gov't? WHy didn't Obama, Hillary, et al. denounce the Iranian leadership when the people rose up much more peacefully? Why not insist that a much more radical leader, Ahmadinajad, step down immediately??? That's what their doing to Mubarak.
You probably won't answer the question directly though...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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No comments from anybody on my revelations????
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jstan
climber
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Blue:
Could be we doubt your claim.
Let me ask you. Do you think any country would allow "their entire military command" to be outside the country - ever?
You have to allow for your audience's ability to discriminate.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Yea Bluey, it's a conspiracy. Just like the coverup for our Kenyan president.
How's the hunt for that birth certificate going?
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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yeah lost, suleiman can become our next favorite dictator
yesterday i mentioned obama sent an envoy to brief mubarak before his "staying put until September" address. todays ny time s on frank wisner:
|Obama Envoy’s Lobbying Firm Tied to Mubarak Regime
As the United States continues to press Egyptian officials to begin the “orderly transition” President Barack Obama called for on Tuesday night, more attention is being paid to Frank Wisner, the retired American diplomat who met with Hosni Mubarak on behalf of the administration this week.
In my colleague Sheryl Gay Stolberg’s profile of Mr. Wisner, she reported that the 72-year-old retired ambassador and businessman trusted with this delicate mission “joined the lobbying firm Patton Boggs” two years ago.
As the Mideast Wire blog noted on Tuesday, Mr. Wisner’s lobbying firm has worked on behalf of the Egyptian government for two of the three decades Mr. Mubarak has been in power.
According to a description of the lobbying firm’s experience in Egypt on its Web site:
Patton Boggs has been active in Egypt for 20 years. We have advised the Egyptian military, the Egyptian Economic Development Agency, and have handled arbitrations and litigation on the government’s behalf in Europe and the U.S. Our attorneys also represent some of the leading Egyptian commercial families and their companies, and we have been involved in oil and gas and telecommunications infrastructure projects on their behalf. One of our partners also served as the Chairman of the U.S.-Egyptian Chamber of Commerce, promoting foreign direct investment into targeted sectors of the Egyptian economy. We have also handled negotiation of offset agreements and managed contractor disputes in military sales agreements arising under the U.S. Foreign Military Sales Act.
blue, think soros is looking to invest in some cheap realestate?
here's more from Patton Boggs website;
The commercial environment for foreigners has improved significantly since the passage of new investment laws in 1997. Egypt now allows full foreign ownership of ventures and guarantees the right to remit income and repatriate capital. There are also new legal guarantees against confiscation, sequestration, and nationalization. Foreigners may now own land within two miles of cities; land beyond that is considered “desert land” and may only be owned by Egyptian-controlled (51 percent minimum) entities. Foreigners may not own agricultural land.
Tax holidays of five years are granted to all joint stock companies employing more than 50 employees. After these five years, joint stock companies are granted a deductible allowance equal to the going interest rate on bank deposits. Taxes are only charged when the rate of return is above the market rate of interest (approximately 10.5 percent at mid 2005).
Tourism remains among the more important parts of the Egyptian economy. Tourist projects, including hotels, are given a five-year tax holiday, which can be extended to ten years for projects in remote areas.
Energy is also a major foreign investment focus. Oil and gas concessions are based on production sharing arrangements between the Egyptian government, the Egyptian General Petroleum Corporation, and foreign oil companies. Contractors are given an initial exploration phase of three to four years. If oil is not found during that period the contract terminates. Foreigners also invest in many other Egyptian industries; however, projects outside of oil, gas, and tourism are not automatically approved and must go through an often-lengthy approval process, which can act as a deterrent to foreign investment. Special permission is required to invest in military-related industries. Foreigners may invest in agricultural projects but cannot majority own them when this would involve majority-ownership of agricultural land.
Patton Boggs has been active in Egypt for 20 years. We have advised the Egyptian military, the Egyptian Economic Development Agency, and have handled arbitrations and litigation on the government’s behalf in Europe and the US. Our attorneys also represent some of the leading Egyptian commercial families and their companies, and we have been involved in oil and gas
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jstan
climber
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When an executive is unpopular the decision to leave is a nice one. Stay too long and you are thrown out and you are followed by a period of chaos. No telling what will emerge from the box.
It's impossible but what would make sense now is for the Army to put Mubarack under house arrest but to guarrantee him three things. One, he will retain the title until the upcoming election. Two, he and some predetermined number of his associates must attend all the functions and meetings incident upon forming a new government. Three, they shall be assured safe passage from Egypt following formation of the new government.
This trades on the trust the people have for the army. That is all that is good about the whole mess.
That trust needs to play a role here.
I would think.
And yes. The Army needs to assure the people no one from the Army shall be a candidate to be the new executive.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Let me ask you. Do you think any country would allow "their entire military command" to be outside the country - ever?
Look it it up, Johnson!
Yea Bluey, it's a conspiracy. Just like the coverup for our Kenyan president.
How's the hunt for that birth certificate going?
I didn't mention anything about that. I'm just saying there are other nefarious reasons that our gov't supports.
Don't put weird words in my mouth, you should be able to do better.
Think clearly, follow the money, and look at the facts.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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The current MSM is misreporting this whole thing for some reason. Including Fox News.
Mark my words, this is a subversive coup by our gov't in collaboration with Int'l 'peace' (socialist) groups.
Something weird is afoot. And it doesn't serve us well as Americans. Mark my words...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Matt why don't you STFU until you can honestly answer the questions I posed to you earlier, coward!
I knew you'd pull this shit!
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Mark my words, this is a subversive coup by our gov't in collaboration with Int'l 'peace' (socialist) groups.
And that's not a conspiracy, Bluey?
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Nibs
Trad climber
Humboldt, CA
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It is interesting to see the neo-cons wringing there hands over this like the blue one. Isn't this the Bush Doctrine come to life? I would think you guys would be celebrating saying "I told you so"
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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"Isn't this the Bush Doctrine come to life? I would think you guys would be celebrating saying "I told you so"
great point, of course it is always democracy as we deem it to be. Same old game. Recall Bush administrations hypocracy when Hamas won what was considered one of the most fair "democratically" held election on record in the Palestinian territories..
Massive protests today "the day of departure". Whether it is or not is to be seen but one can not help but feel moved by the actions of everyday people united in taking back their country. I don't believe they will accept anything short of the current regimes ouster. That includes whomever it is that the US and their Israeli masters try to insert. No wonder our "leaders" are scrambling..
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Douglas Rhiner
Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
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Crowley, would you like to see the MB as a part of the gov't? WHy didn't Obama, Hillary, et al. denounce the Iranian leadership when the people rose up much more peacefully? Why not insist that a much more radical leader, Ahmadinajad, step down immediately??? That's what their doing to Mubarak.
Bluering,
"We" had/have a better relationship with Mubarak and the government of Egypt.
You don't see the military leaders of Iran coming to Washington.
Also, the relationship of the populous of Iran vs the government/military there of is a totally different dynamic.
If we were to have done the same thing with Iran it would have just made the leaders crawl deeper into their state of total control.
EDIT:
IF and a big IF this Egyptian revolution "works" wouldn't it seem logical that the people of Iran may find inspiration from this? And have a democracy come about organically rather than having it pushed upon them?
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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McCain calling this movement/revolution "a virus"...
Thought we, America, were into Democracy?
Not McCain, he wants something else.... Maybe he should just call for Hitler to be put in place... That might suit him better
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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IF and a big IF this Egyptian revolution "works" wouldn't it seem logical that the people of Iran may find inspiration from this? And have a democracy come about organically rather than having it pushed upon them?
I don't think so. It only demonstrates that the U.S. will leave certain 'allies' twisting in the wind. And didn't Iran try an 'organic' uprising? They received no support from our gov't and were stamped down by theirs.
Maybe he should just call for Hitler to be put in place... That might suit him better
The irony is thick there...The MB were allied with the Nasties BITD.
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Douglas Rhiner
Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
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Jeff Elfont and John McCain - Birds of a feather flock together.
Two of the most intellectually deprived people on the planet.
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Douglas Rhiner
Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
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I don't think so. It only demonstrates that the U.S. will leave certain 'allies' twisting in the wind. And didn't Iran try an 'organic' uprising? They received no support from our gov't and were stamped down by theirs.
Bluering you are correct about the people of Iran trying. But "they" probably did not try hard enough. I.e. some people laying down their lives for democracy. Heck, that is what happened here in the good 'ol US of A. Or maybe "we" should have just complained to KG and told him we wanted fredom rather than picking up arms.
What ally are we leaving twisting in the wind?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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What ally are we leaving twisting in the wind?
Mubarak. Maybe not a super-guy, but I think the best you could hope for in that region.
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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Israel is a parasite and a strategic liability.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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The only ally in the ME that the US has is Israel.
The USA is formally an ally of Turkey, as part of NATO. There is considerable diplomatic, economic and military cooperation between the two countries - even if it doesn't always conform to what IPAC wants.
Turkey has a freely elected and stable government, reasonable political freedom, civil liberties (unless you're a Kurd), a declining role for its military in government, a steadily growing economy, and it may eventually become a member of the EU. Many Turks, but far from all, are Sunni Moslems, of a moderate variety. Not Shias, not Wahhabis.
Israel has unstable governments that are hostage to religious extremists, and denies many civil liberties to 1/3 of its population.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Perhaps FatTrad can check with IPAC, but other middle eastern countries are also de facto if not de jure military allies of the US, and perhaps more. In particular, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and the Persian Gulf statelets.
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corniss chopper
climber
not my real name
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The existence of the morality police in Saudi is pretty weird. You can find some
unpleasant stories of their activities trying to keep the people in line.
Saudi woman beats up religious cop
http://www.boingboing.net/2010/05/18/saudi-woman-beats-up.html
There are always strange news stories that have their own flavor coming from
that area of the world. Of course that can be said of every region but still...
Wajeha Al Huwaider, a woman, driving in Saudi Arabia!
Saudi Arabia government to behead man for practicing witchcraft ...
Saudi religious police attacked by girls
Crucixion and beheading for child rapist in Saudi Arabia
Saudi family files lawsuit against cellphone-stealing genie ...
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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"We have reached out to the Syrians and Palestinians" wow, really?
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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A.C.-
That was a good one, and hard to dispute.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oh GOODY, Jeff!
Maybe you will FINALLY get what you want!
WAR!
CONFLICT!
MASSIVE NUMBERS OF MUSLIM CIVILIANS KILLED!
You, Jeff, are a paper Jew, a chicken hawk, who childishly cheerleads for "conflict".
You ought to grow up, move to Israel and join the army.
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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oh no fats! even the extremely pro israel ny times is starting to provide a platform for long overdue and legitimate critism of your favorite ethnocracy. The Jan 25 revolt, even if it fails, is a game changer in the middle east:
"...the core of what is the American interest in this [Egypt]. It’s Israel. It’s not worry about whether the Egyptians are going to close down the Suez Canal, or even the narrower terror issue. It really can be distilled down to one thing, and that’s Israel.
The problem for America is, you can balance being the carrier for the Israeli agenda with Arab autocrats, but with Arab democracies, you can’t do that."
Daniel Levy, Israeli negotiator & critic of occupation
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/05/world/middleeast/05israel.html
your fellow neocons and hasbarists are having a hard time with this. pitty them.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jeff, regarding your "question".
Really sophomoric.
Do some reading for yourself.
Maybe YOU can "figure out" why the Taliban destroyed the Buddas.
DUH
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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Robert Fisk has lived and reported from the Middle East for as long as I can remember and then some;
"The demonstrators in Cairo and Alexandria and Port Said, of course, are nonetheless entering a period of great fear. Their "Day of Departure" on Friday – predicated on the idea that if they really believed Mubarak would leave last week, he would somehow follow the will of the people – turned yesterday into the "Day of Disillusion". They are now constructing a committee of economists, intellectuals, "honest" politicians to negotiate with Vice-President Omar Suleiman – without apparently realising that Suleiman is the next safe-pair-of-hands general to be approved by the Americans, that Suleiman is a ruthless man who will not hesitate to use the same state security police as Mubarak relied upon to eliminate the state's enemies in Tahrir Square."
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-mubarak-is-going-he-is-on-the-cusp-of-final-departure-2205852.html
many posts ago Lost made some important points on Suleiman. This is Clinton, Wisner, and Obamas idea of "change" ? Protestors aren't buying it. Out with Mubarak means out with the regime. Obama will have to try harder
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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God bless Caribou Barbie.
And bless John McCain for showing his deep vetting by carefully picking her to be his
Vice President.
McCain's mature judgement handed the Presidency to Obama in an electoral landslide.
All the dumb fuker had to do was pick someone, anyone else and he had a chance.
Plenty of seasoned Republican women governors he could have picked from.
What a loser.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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McCain would have crushed Obama with anyone else.
fatty never misses a chance to troll.
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jstan
climber
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The present absence of interest on the far right for democratizing 80,000,000 ME people when they were willing to borrow Chinese money to run up the debt and fund a war to democratize 40,000,000 ME people
suggests no one has figured out how to make money off Egypt. To paraphrase Gandalf,
"This gives one hope, does it not?"
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Well, I think Obama STILL would have won, perhaps not an electoral landslide.
But, you know Jeff, McCain's choice of Palin really was shocking as it showed how
incredibly shallow McCain's judgement is.
He NEVER "vetted" her.
Can you imagine what a horrible President he would have been?
Blindly, stupidly picking cabinet level candidates who were as grossly ignorant and
unqualified as his Palin pick.
And what is even more shocking is how YOU and people like YOU, went into the voting booth and voted for him and Palin.
What poor judgement you have. Just like McCain.
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jstan
climber
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In 2008 nearly 50% of the people voted for a party whose performance brought us, demonstrably, to the next to last step in the ladder. The next step down requires the US Army to be directing traffic at every intersection in the US. And a president with dictatorial power.
It is we who are broken.
Possibly beyond repair.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Sharia law will never happen in Egypt.
Egyptians want religious freedom, as shown by their protection of the Christians in the protests.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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The present absence of interest on the far right for democratizing 80,000,000 ME people when they were willing to borrow Chinese money to run up the debt and fund a war to democratize 40,000,000 ME people
Jstan, China is not the lender of last resort now. The Fed has recently passed both China and Japan as the largest holders of dollars. Who is the fed you might want to ask, and what will they get out of this recent quantitative easing that they suggested, largess?
I'd suggest to start with that inflation will not be something wanted or desired by those in power.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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fatty never misses a chance to troll.
i am beginning to think that LEB=fatrad.....or fatrad=LEB, however, one wishes to visualize it....
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Egypt: New accreditation rules; military obstructs media
Source: CPJ Committee to Protect Journalists
New York, February 7, 2011—
Egyptian authorities have shifted their strategy for obstructing the press as protests enter their 14th day: The military has become the predominant force detaining journalists and confiscating their equipment rather than plainclothes police or government supporters, the Committee to Protect Journalists said today. Authorities have also put in place new bureaucratic obstacles for journalists covering the anti-Mubarak protests on Tahrir Square, with the military instructing reporters to seek new press credentials from the government.
"We hold the Egyptian military directly responsible for ongoing systematic efforts to restrict the work of journalists and for the mistreatment of journalists who have been taken into custody," said Mohamed Abdel Dayem, CPJ's Middle East and North Africa program coordinator. "We call on the Egyptian military and the government to respect the work of the press, release any journalist in custody, and immediately investigate allegations of abuse and mistreatment."
Foreign editors in the U.S. as well as reporters in Egypt have told CPJ that the government is confiscating press cards and other types of identification and are asking journalists to go to the Ministry of Information to apply for new temporary credentials. Multiple journalists told CPJ that they have been told to acquire accreditation from the government, including one who said he was told by the same thing by the U.S. Embassy in Cairo. (CPJ was unable to reach the embassy to confirm.)
"The sudden change in policy regarding press credentials is simply the latest effort to restrict the work of journalists, many of whom have already been beaten by mobs and detained by authorities," added Joel Simon, CPJ executive director.
Local journalists told CPJ that the military is obstructing journalists and refusing many entry into Tahrir Square. Al-Jazeera reported on the air that "individuals who have cameras or food are often prevented from reaching the square."
Journalists are also reporting that they have been mistreated while in custody. Here are some firsthand accounts, and a roundup of new attacks on the press:
•Bloggers and lawyers told CPJ that authorities detained Abdel Karim Suleiman--known online as Karim Amer--at some point in the early morning hours in Cairo today. Amer completed a four-year prison sentence on charges of insulting Islam and President Hosni Mubarak in late 2010.
•Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty reporters Robert Tait and Abdelilah Nuaimi, both British citizens, were released on Sunday and left Egypt, according to a statement released by the U.S. government-funded RFE/RL. The journalists were detained on February 4. Tait was reported as saying that "whatever official statements you might hear about the situation of detained journalists, we were not treated well."
•Journalists Souad Mekhennet and Nicholas Kulish, who were detained on Thursday and released 24 hours later, wrote in the New York Times about intimidation and mistreatment by the plainclothes officers who held them. "We felt powerless--uncertain about where and how long we would be held. But the worst part had nothing to do with our treatment. It was seeing--and in particular hearing through the walls of this dreadful facility--the abuse of Egyptians at the hands of their own government." They added, "Many journalists shared this experience, and many were kept in worse conditions--some suffering from injuries as well."
•Military authorities detained Al-Jazeera English correspondent Ayman Mohyeldin in Tahrir Square for nine hours on Sunday, according to the network. "It was just the mere fact that I was a journalist who was trying to go into Liberation Square that seemed to be enough for them to take me for further questioning." Mohyeldin told Al-Jazeera.
•Sherine Tadros, an Al-Jazeera English correspondent, was held at a military checkpoint on Sunday, but released within an hour, according to news reports.
•Liam Stack, who has been stringing for the New York Times, was also briefly detained on Sunday and tweeted that authorities confiscated his camera.
•Marion Touboul, a French journalist living in Cairo, told the independent daily Al-Masri al-Youm that she was arrested on Saturday while trying to return home. "I was not working, and I had no camera on me, but a sinister-looking guy asked to see my ID and answered my phone. He said to my boyfriend, who was on the line, that I was hurt, so he would get there quickly. We both got arrested," she recounted. She added that both were blindfolded and taken by military police to Nasr City, a Cairo neighborhood. They were held for eight hours before being released. "We were not brutalized at all. This was clearly intimidation," said Touboul, who works for the Franco-German broadcaster Arte.
•On Friday, plainclothes security forces stormed the offices of Ikhwan Online, a news website associated with the Muslim Brotherhood, according to news reports. Twelve journalists were detained and taken to the Ministry of Interior. Security forces, along with a pro-Mubarak mob, searched the news website's offices, confiscating some 30 computers and various notes and documents, according to Ahmad Subai, a journalist at the website. Six of the journalists were released late on Friday. This came after similar attacks in recent days against the offices of other independent dailies and weeklies, like Al-Shorouk and Al-Badil.
•Also on Friday, Amira Ahmed, business editor at The Daily News Egypt, was attacked by a pro-Mubarak mob, according to news reports. "It was terrifying," Ahmed told the Guardian. "They were chanting: 'We've found the foreigners, don't let them go,' and calling us traitors and spies. When I pointed out to them that I was Egyptian, they responded: 'Your Egypt isn't the same as ours.'"
In all, CPJ has documented at least 140 direct attacks on journalists and news facilities since January 30, and is investigating numerous other reports.
End
Then there is bringing back [never went away] OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD: looks like lessons learned under Omar Suleiman and repeating them, so be careful on what you hear/read from the region. Palin would be good start, love her commentaries and analysis. I think she knows where Egypt is, maybe not.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Yes, Fatty and who will be supplying the ammo.
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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"We hope the protests are for the best. But you act as if you know -- and you do not know."
well Frum certainly knows, after all he was one of the neocon cheerleaders for Bush's Iraq fiasco. Even too far right of the American Enterprise Institute...is that even possible? He did coin the catchy "Axis of Evil" slogan...just got the countries wrong
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Oh no, its the WMD fear mongering again.
Do you want us to bomb Egypt, Fattrad?
And don't you agree Mubarak should go if he's involved in WMD's and sending missle technology to NKorea, right?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 10, 2011 - 12:24pm PT
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Israel likes to think it's the centre of the universe and can do no wrong, a notion promoted by its fellow travellers and agents provocateurs like FatTrad. Complete lack of perspective. It's really just another small, not particularly important, military-dominated country in Palestine.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Feb 10, 2011 - 12:46pm PT
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Iran executed 67 people last month, most of them political dissidents, including one citizen of Holland and a crazy man that called himself God (for heresy)
How many have the Israelis executed?
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jstan
climber
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Feb 10, 2011 - 02:51pm PT
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If Mubarak hands provisional authority to one of the senior generals in the Egyptian Army this will be going as I thought it would. Trust the people seem to have in the Army will become a central piece on the board. A weird idea that might help the Army hold that trust. Go out to El Mahalla el Kubra, where unrest was very strong, and randomly pick 12 citizens to act as a panel without portfolio to advise the Army. A Grand Jury, if you will. Pulling prominent citizens like Wael Ghonim into the transition effort might also be done.
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2011/0210/Is-Mubarak-out-Is-Suleiman-in-Is-this-a-military-coup
Is Mubarak out? Is Suleiman in? Is this a military coup?
Conflicting reports make it difficult to understand what Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak has in mind for his address to the nation tonight – but it's clear that it's something big.
By Ariel Zirulnick, Correspondent / February 10, 2011
Is Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak heading out the door? US officials and the media are saying yes (probably), following an announcement Thursday that President Mubarak will address the Egyptian people tonight.
Talking Points Memo reported that CIA Director Leon Panetta told a US House of Representatives Intelligence panel that there is "a strong likelihood that Mubarak may step down in Eqypt tonight." Mr. Panetta also said that Mubarak will likely hand over power to Omar Suleiman, who was recently appointed vice president and met with Mubarak following the announcement of his address to the nation tonight, according to CNN in an 11:58 a.m. EST update.
However, CNN also reported at 12:08 p.m. EST that an Egyptian government official said Mubarak plans to hand over power to the Egyptian military, which would give the government a pass on following the Constitution's provisions for succession and other relevant issues. (The same official said that this is "not a coup in the traditional sense.")
According to the Egyptian Constitution, if a president steps down before his term is up, the speaker of the parliament steps in as acting president until elections can be held – not Suleiman, and not a member of the Egyptian military.
Blake Hounshell, the managing editor of Foreign Policy who is in Cairo now, reported on Twitter that Mohammed El Baradei, a key opposition figure in the protests, said that neither Suleiman nor anyone associated with Mubarak's government has any credibility with the protesters.
So, it's murky what is going to happen – if Mubarak even steps down. Dan Murphy, the Monitor's correspondent reporting from Cairo, said that all signs in Cairo pointed to something big happening, likely tonight:
"With mass protests expected to resume Friday – organizers are expecting the biggest turnout in Cairo yet, with demonstrators scheduled to stream in from around the country – there has been a frenzy of activity today from the military and the ruling National Democratic Party that all make the convincing case that something is afoot.
"Mubarak is expected to speak tonight. NBC News and Al Jazeera have both reported, citing unnamed sources, that Mubarak will step down.
"Lending weight to that likelihood were statements today from the powerful Egyptian military and from a senior member of Mubarak’s ruling National Democratic Party. Hossam Badrawi, the NDP’s secretary general, strongly implied to CNN that Mubarak might step down by tomorrow."
Check back within the hour for another report from Mr. Murphy from Tahrir Square, where he is waiting with the protesters to see what happens next.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 10, 2011 - 03:30pm PT
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How many have the Israelis executed?
On a per month basis, over the last 60 years, quite a lot. Excluding legitimate Palestinian and Lebanese freedom fighters, lots of "collateral damage" (deaths of civilians) in Lebanon, the Gaza Strip, and the West Bank over the last 40 years. Not counting the many who were executed in 1947 - 48, or ethnically cleansed then and since - a favourite Israeli preoccupation.
Israel has been at the apogee of its power, and it is already starting to decline. It will also over time lose credibility in the US and a few other misguided countries, such as Canada, and the countries in the area will gain credibility as they go toward more democratic governments, on the Turkish model. If the Palestinians in the West Bank, Israel and the Gaza Strip said "We give up. Let's form a single democratic state, called Palestine-Israel" they would very soon be the majority. And the cooperation between the Palestinian government in the West Bank and Israel shows it to be a real possibility.
No wonder FatTrad rants - he knows the end game is beginning, and that Palestine may look a very different place afterward, notwithstanding the efforts of a few fanatics.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Feb 10, 2011 - 04:02pm PT
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Fattrad, Egypt will not be like Iran, more like Turkey. That's why Iran is so concerned about what's going on in Egypt. They could be next.
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2011 - 04:25pm PT
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Iran is too complex but things are also cooking in there just like Egypt but it may take some time before things blow. The problems in ME is that most governments are not sure how to deal with internet and mobile media.
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bmacd
Social climber
100% Canadian
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Feb 10, 2011 - 06:28pm PT
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Aljazeera's English language live feed on Utube from Egypt
http://www.youtube.com/aljazeeraenglish
A bit more timely and informed than the Supertopo analysts commentary
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Feb 10, 2011 - 06:42pm PT
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Yep, the people will not be happy. Big demonstrations tomorrow.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Feb 10, 2011 - 08:26pm PT
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"Mine comes from intelligence sources which I cannot disclose."
Fatty the Walter Mitty of ST.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Feb 10, 2011 - 09:22pm PT
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Toofunny, Lostinshanghai!
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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Feb 10, 2011 - 09:26pm PT
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So apparently the dictator is going to delegate some authority to the torturer:
"The guard quickly told me that the very big boss was coming to talk to me, and that I must be well behaved and co-operate. Everyone was nervous. I have since found out that the boss was Omar Suleiman, head of all Egyptian security. He was known for personally supervising the interrogation of al-Qaeda suspects and sending reports to the CIA. In the beginning, he was often present during my interrogations. He must have thought that he had a big fish when I was sent to him by the Americans and Australians.
I was sitting in a chair, hooded, with my hands handcuffed behind my back. He came up to me. His voice was deep and rough. He spoke to me in Egyptian and English. He said, “Listen, you don’t know who I am, but I am the one who has your life in his hands. Every single person in this building has his life in my hands. I just make the decision.”
I said, “I hope your decision is that you make me die straight away.”
“No, I don’t want you to die now. I want you to die slowly.”
from the 2008 book My Story
http://www.scribepublications.com.au/book/mystory
more at :http://antonyloewenstein.com/2011/02/11/exclusive-mamdouh-habib-interview-on-new-usisraeli-egyptian-pet-omar-suleiman/
AND somebody's fool OBAMA calls for a smooth transition of power
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 10, 2011 - 09:47pm PT
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Is that kind of like how IPAC is the US branch of the Stern Gang?
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jstan
climber
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Feb 10, 2011 - 09:52pm PT
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Ooof!
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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Feb 10, 2011 - 09:56pm PT
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"ahad,
Are you calling Obama a fool????? "
are not all US presidents since truman (maybe exception of eisenhower) as they genuflect before their aipac sponsors? Obama does what he is told.
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2011 - 12:58pm PT
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The Egyptian military is Mubarak so make no different. US and Israel wanted to buy some time to figure what to do so Military is going to come up with the condition of the new democratic government and business will as usual with starting with crackdown, jailing all the recent trouble makers and keeping close eyes on the Muslim Brotherhood.
Yemen and Saudi will be next on the list
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jstan
climber
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Feb 11, 2011 - 01:04pm PT
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Well so far it has gone as expected. If the Army had not moved Mubarak out Friday would have been a bloody day, I suspect, and later politics would have been even less productive. The next move is up to the Supreme Military Council. The logic for them to convene some manner of citizen advisory board right away, for instance to advise the Council and assure transparency of the upcoming election, is strong. There will be rough spots ahead and the Army has to make sure their intention is not challenged successfully. The Army has been adroit. They may succeed where, for example, the French failed in 1790.
Another thing that might help is for the Army to begin reviewing the case files for political prisoners and release the egregious cases asap.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Feb 11, 2011 - 01:04pm PT
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Yemen and Saudi will be next on the list
Owww, now you sound like Fatty.
Secret Israeli subs, and the bombs will fall on Iran in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.....1...1....1.....1.....1.....1.....1.....1.....1....1..
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jstan
climber
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Feb 14, 2011 - 02:46pm PT
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http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-obama-egypt-20110214,0,1163636.story
Boehner credits Obama for handling of Egypt crisis
House Speaker John Boehner says on NBC's 'Meet the Press' that he thinks the president responded to the 'very difficult situation' in Egypt about as well as possible. Potential GOP presidential candidates believe otherwise.
"Boehner, the nation's top Republican elected official, told NBC's "Meet the Press" that he thought there was a need for an assessment to determine why the U.S. intelligence community "didn't have a better feel for" the grass-roots movements that felled authoritarian regimes in Tunisia and Egypt in recent weeks."
End of report
THE CIA AND ALL OF US NEED TO GO TO THE LINK BELOW AND SEE WHAT WE SUPPORTED
http://www.sandmonkey.org/2010/06/13/on-khaled-said/
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jstan
climber
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Feb 14, 2011 - 02:54pm PT
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Go to sandmonkey Jeff. Then let's talk about success and failure.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Feb 14, 2011 - 03:07pm PT
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I think it is impossible to judge President Obama's performance at this point.
I think he said too much too soon publicly and in so doing appeared to be unseasoned.
But this will be forgotten, and on the other hand we do not know what was done behind the scenes. What promises were made?
On another note, now we see many thousands of Tunisians showing up in Europe, mostly Italy, now that they are free to leave. Will these revolutions lead to a further Islamification of the continent?
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jstan
climber
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Feb 14, 2011 - 03:28pm PT
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One opinion piece out of the Brookings Institute suggests Mubarak got a very pointed phone call from Obama that night. But we won't know the facts for forty years. Nor should we. If there was such a call I imagine our support of his regime would have been discussed.
If any of us wants to begin to understand what was actually happening in Egypt we need to go to Wael Ghonim's blog Sandmonkey.
http://www.sandmonkey.org/2010/06/13/on-khaled-said/
I absolutely refuse to duplicate it here.
Each of us can do this much.
Each of us bears responsibility for this.
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dirtbag
climber
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Feb 14, 2011 - 03:31pm PT
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But we won't know the facts for forty years. Nor should we. If there was such a call I imagine our support of his regime would have been discussed.
Wait 'til the next round of wikileaks.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Feb 14, 2011 - 03:55pm PT
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"Things are cooking in north Africa and I know something is coming up but I wonder who is behind it."
The people were behind it.....
go figure... they want a democracy, like the erset of the civilized world....
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 15, 2011 - 11:52am PT
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So fatty, now Bahrain, are we getting ready for your 2012 ME mega war ?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Feb 15, 2011 - 12:25pm PT
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"Forward he cried, from the rear, and the front ranks died. The generals sat, and the lines on the map moved from side to side."
Pink Floyd
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 15, 2011 - 12:59pm PT
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DMT "Israelis to free the Persians"
That is funny
not to forget that some of the key important politicians in Israeli were born in Iran including an ex FM
edit to add that in 2008, Iran bought and imported over 220 million dollar worth of Apples and veggies from Israeli.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Feb 15, 2011 - 01:06pm PT
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Over the horizon wars are a fantasy of the neocon neverservedniks.
Ah, c'mon DMT, haven't you noticed all the "over the horizon" action the last few years?
Like Afghanistan?
And Iraq?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 15, 2011 - 01:10pm PT
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59 years old at the Battle of the Bulge.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Feb 15, 2011 - 01:21pm PT
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Afghanistan and Iraq (after "mission accomplished") are just occasional skirmishes, not all out destroy village, towns, hiding area wars. They are peacekeeping missions.
Mission accomplished. Love it.
Peacekeeping mission. Love it.
Exactly whom is heading "over the horizon" into an all out destroy village, towns type mission?
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 15, 2011 - 01:48pm PT
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survival
come on man
is not a mission
its all about business
over 100k newly 4x4 jeeps were made just to drive in narrow roads in Afghanistan
100k x $120k
that is just one ticket item
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 18, 2011 - 12:33pm PT
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Fatty
What if Saudi is next ?
Bahrain will do down like Egypt ,soon Jourdan
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2011 - 12:37pm PT
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Libya is going out of control and gasoline price will be in the $5 range soon
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2011 - 12:45pm PT
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By end of this year, ME and the Islamic/Arab world will go thru a major revolution
TRIPOLI (Reuters) – Muammar Gaddafi vowed to die in Libya as a martyr in an angry television address on Tuesday, as rebel troops said eastern regions had broken free from his rule in a burgeoning revolt.
"I am not going to leave this land, I will die here as a martyr," Gaddafi said on state television, refusing to bow to calls from his own diplomats, soldiers and protesters clamoring in the streets for an end to his four decades at the helm.
"I shall remain here defiant," said Gaddafi, speaking outside one of his residences, which was heavily damaged in a 1986 U.S. bombing raid that attempted to kill him.
Outside the building stood a monument of a giant fist crushing a U.S. warplane.
In a trademark rambling address, Gaddafi urged his supporters to take to the streets, saying protesters warranted the death sentence. He also promised a vague overhaul of government structures
Earlier, witnesses streaming across the Libyan border into Egypt said Gaddafi was using tanks, warplanes and mercenaries in an effort to stamp out the growing rebellion.
In the eastern city of Tobruk, a Reuters correspondent there said sporadic blasts could be heard, the latest sign that Gaddafi's grip on the oil and gas exporting nation was weakening.
"All the eastern regions are out of Gaddafi's control now ... The people and the army are hand-in-hand here," said the now former army major Hany Saad Marjaa.
The White House offered its condolences for the "appalling violence" in Libya and said the international community had to speak with one voice on the crisis.
The U.N. refugee agency meanwhile urged Libya's neighbors to grant refuge to those fleeing the unrest, which was triggered by decades of repression and popular revolts that toppled leaders in Tunisia and Egypt.
On the Libyan side of the border with Egypt, anti-Gaddafi rebels armed with clubs and Kalashnikov rifles welcomed visitors. One man held an upside-down picture of Gaddafi defaced with the words "the butcher tyrant, murderer of Libyans," a Reuters correspondent who crossed into Libya reported.
Hundreds of Egyptians flowed in the opposite direction on tractors and trucks, taking with them harrowing tales of state violence and banditry.
In the eastern town of Al Bayda, resident Marai Al Mahry told Reuters by telephone that 26 people including his brother Ahmed had been shot dead overnight by Gaddafi loyalists.
"They shoot you just for walking on the street," he said, sobbing uncontrollably as he appealed for help.
Protesters were attacked with tanks and warplanes, he said.
"The only thing we can do now is not give up, no surrender, no going back. We will die anyways, whether we like it or not. It is clear that they don't care whether we live or not. This is genocide," said Mahry, 42.
Human Rights Watch said 62 people had died in clashes in Tripoli in the past two days, on top of its previous toll of 233 dead. Opposition groups put the figure far much higher. U.N. rights chief Navi Pillay said the killing could amount to crimes against humanity and demanded an international probe.
The revolt in Libya, the third largest oil producer in Africa, has driven oil prices to a 2 1/2 year high above $108 a barrel, and OPEC said it would produce more crude if supplies from member Libya were disrupted.
With no end in sight to the crisis, refugees fled to Egypt.
"Five people died on the street where I live," Mohamed Jalaly, 40, told Reuters at Salum on his way to Cairo from Benghazi. "You leave Benghazi and then you have ... nothing but gangs and youths with weapons," he added. "The way from Benghazi is extremely dangerous," he said.
Libyan guards have withdrawn from their side of the border and Egypt's new military rulers -- who took power following the overthrow of President Hosni Mubarak on February11 -- said the main crossing would be kept open round-the-clock to allow the sick and wounded to enter.
Groups of rebels with assault rifles and shotguns, waved cheerily at the passing cars on a stretch of desert road, flicking the V-for-victory sign and posing with their guns, a Reuters correspondent reported.
Libyan security forces have cracked down fiercely on demonstrators across the country, with fighting spreading to Tripoli after erupting in Libya's oil-producing east last week, in a reaction to decades of
As the fighting has intensified some supporters have abandoned Gaddafi. Tripoli's envoy to India, Ali al-Essawi, resigned and told Reuters that African mercenaries had been recruited to help put down protests.
"The fall of Gaddafi is the imperative of the people in streets," he said. The justice minister also quit and a group of army officers urged soldiers to "join the people." Two pilots flew their warplanes to nearby Malta.
DEFIANCE AND CONDEMNATION
Gaddafi's son Saif on Sunday vowed his father would keep fighting "until the last man standing" and the Libyan leader appeared on television after days of seclusion to dismiss reports he had fled to the Venezuela of his ally Hugo Chavez.
"I want to show that I'm in Tripoli and not in Venezuela. Do not believe the channels belonging to stray dogs," said Gaddafi, who has ruled Libya with a mixture of populism and tight control since taking power in a military coup in 1969.
World powers have condemned the use of force against protesters, U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon accusing Libya of firing on civilians from warplanes and helicopters. The Security Council met in closed session to discuss Libya.
Washington and Europe have demanded an end to the violence and Germany's Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle said: "A ruling family, threatening its people with civil war, has reached the end of the line."
Demonstrations spread to Tripoli from the second city Benghazi, cradle of the revolt that has engulfed a number of towns and which residents say is now in the hands of protestors.
Residents said anxious shoppers were queuing outside stores to try to stock up on food and drink. Some shops were closed.
Spain's Repsol suspended all operations in Libya and sources said operations at cargo ports at Benghazi, Tripoli and Misurata had shut due to the violence.
Trade sources said Libyan oil port operations had also been disrupted and others said gas supplies from Libya to Italy had slowed since Late Monday, though Italy said they had not yet been interrupted.
Shell said it was pulling out its expatriate staff from Libya temporarily and a number of states were seeking to evacuate their nationals.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Feb 22, 2011 - 01:05pm PT
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Well, now we know why you think it's important oh unbiased observer...
Waht's with that Gadafhiduck? He's been at it like two hours, today is he trying to present himself for potential martyrdom today? So he can jsut not have to f*#k with it anymore?
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Feb 23, 2011 - 02:17am PT
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Makes sense that they charge a toll for ships transiting the Suez Canal.
Reportedly the 2 Iranian Navy warships had to cough up $300,000 to
Egypt for the privilege. Little wonder Mubarak became a billionaire skimming
this money tree!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9upJgE_NVek
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Tready
climber
Montana
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Feb 23, 2011 - 02:38pm PT
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Well, I guess it's a good thing you're here to stop them.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Feb 23, 2011 - 03:01pm PT
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Fattrad:
“For the women of ST, you should appreciate this:
Jeff Jacoby (Boston Globe)
The despicable sexual attack on CBS correspondent Lara Logan in Cairo's Tahrir Square wasn't shocking at all.
According to a 2008 survey by the Egyptian Center for Women's Rights, 83% of native Egyptian women and 98% of women visiting from abroad have experienced public sexual harassment.
More than half the Egyptian women reported being molested every day. And contrary to popular belief, most of the victims were wearing modest Islamic dress.”
So mister propaganda. Let’s try this:
“For the women of ST, you should appreciate this:”
Jed Jacuby (Bustom Glub)
The despicable sexual attack on CBS correspondent Lara Logan in Cairo's Tahrir Square wasn't shocking at all.
According to a 1920, 1950, 1980, 2000, 2008, 2010 survey by the US Center for Women's Rights, 83% of native [that would be native Indians] but to include any US women born here or foreign visitors or not and 98% of women living here have experienced public as well as private [corporate] sexual harassment.
More than half [maybe a bit high but could be] the US women reported being molested every day [fathers, uncles, boyfriends and local rapists hiding in the trees when US women walk or do their planned exercise runs. And contrary to popular belief, most of the victims were wearing modest clothing or dress.
Hmmm?
Your brotherhood guess you really never belonged now that found out you are not one but volunteered, how many teens were raped in patrol cars or ask to perform a sex act in favor of not going to jail.
Go to www.meganslaw.ca.gov and look at the # and I mean #### of predators [sex not the aircraft] living across your street or in local area.
Look at our own lawmakers in Washington, sure you been around and talk, went to lunch with one in your party [so not to offend just the GOP but Democrats as well “Clinton’] at some time and now are being caught and resigning. And some were even married.
Oh and there is this: 40% of women report sexual harassment at work
By RON FRIEDMAN
05/28/2010 04:34
'Unfortunate' findings on Labor Ministry survey of 1,000 employees.
Forty percent of Israeli women have reported being sexually harassed at work, 43% of them in the past year, according to preliminary figures released Thursday from a survey by the Industry, Trade and Labor Ministry.
The survey revealed that 41% of Israeli women felt their workplace was not safe from sexual harassment. Three-quarters of the women who said they had been harassed, said the offender was a senior employee at the company, and 64% said the harassment had happened more than once.
In an interview with The Jerusalem Post, the ministry’s head of research and economics, Benny Pfefferman, said the figures had been compiled based on interviews with a representative sample of 1,000 women employees, across all the sectors of the workforce.
Guess what I am asking is what is your point? Is it because only half with the Israeli women.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Feb 23, 2011 - 04:56pm PT
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Fatty
Really sorry to pick on you again.
Arnaud de Borchgrave is a propagandist/disinformation specialist. He once was a writer for the Washington Times run by Sun Myung Moon.
During a sermon, Rev. Moon asked any Jews present to raise their hands. When they did, he told them to repent for having killed Jesus and went on to explain that it was as an indemnity for this that 6 million Jews died during the Holocaust.
Funny you would agree with the analysis from Borchgrave or lack of Intel. Could be that you are not old enough to know the players.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Feb 23, 2011 - 05:46pm PT
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you girls both need far more help than you will receive here.....too many hormones today?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Feb 23, 2011 - 05:49pm PT
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i will AC, its better than yours and fattys butt grabbin fest....
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highcamp
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Feb 23, 2011 - 05:58pm PT
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I wanted to pass along this NPR segment from today. The guest speaker is Michael Scheuer, former chief of the CIA's Osama bin Laden unit. The piece was supposed to be about his new bin Laden book, but it actually deals a lot more with the current state of Middle East politics, specifically the revolutionary movement within the Arab states and US strategy for the area, than it does bin Laden himself. Really, really interesting piece. The guy is a straight shooter, and tells it like it is - be it politically incorrect, or taboo, and I highly recommend you listen to it.
Here's a quote of his I copied down, it's regarding the western belief that Egypt's revolution will now result in some glowing America-friendly democracy:
"CNN, FOX, and BBC, in the entire square in Cairo, made an 18 day business of interviewing well groomed, professional, upper-middle class, English-speaking Egyptians. Were they the sign of the future? Do they represent 80 million Egyptians? My bet is they're a thin veneer on top of a very pious Muslim nation [pious = devoutly religious]. In addition, outside of Mubarek's government, the only organization that can really govern the country is the Muslim Brotherhood. ... In some ways Americans are almost Marxist in their belief in the inevitability of the triumph of their political system. … It has escaped me why we believe that 80 million Egyptians in a time of chaos, and perhaps violence and turmoil would reach for an alien ideology - secularism - rather than a thousand year old faith."
Very well spoken guy. I'd love to hear your thoughts.
http://www.kqed.org/a/forum/R201102231000
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Feb 23, 2011 - 06:24pm PT
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Remember this guy?
the Google exec who was supposed to be the face of a secular fight for freedom in Egypt.
He was supposed to speak last Friday at the square.
Well it seems that this guy,
Objected to the idea and the young idealist was hustled off the stage by The mad Mullahs goons hiding with his head wrapped in an Egyptian flag.
(at least they let him live!)
Then these festivities ensued.
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/2815.htm
So, the Brotherhood has hijacked the revolution.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Feb 23, 2011 - 06:53pm PT
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Dingus -If you think Islam is about PEACE then you are not paying attention.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Feb 23, 2011 - 06:57pm PT
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2011 - 12:31pm PT
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Fatty
Are you ready for Saudi kingdom to fall down taking Bush and associates along with them ?
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2011 - 01:22pm PT
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/24/AR2011022401740.html
DUBAI, United Arab Emirates -- Saudi Arabia's rulers answered the Arab world's winter of rage with money: throwing $36 billion into housing and other social assistance channels in attempts to quell rumblings of dissent. Iran's president offered more bombast as Tehran tries to project sympathy for protesters.
The two approaches this week - largesse versus rhetoric - captures the style and stakes for the region's heavyweight rivals as Iran hunts for gains and Saudi tries hard to stamp out any threats.
Already, the region has been reshaped by the fall of decades-old regimes and growing pressures on others, including Moammar Gadhafi's 42-year rule in Libya. But the ultimate questions for many are whether the pro-Western Saudi monarchy can ride out the unrest, and if Iran will capitalize on the changes with more footholds and influence in areas closely tied to Washington's interests.
"If an uprising occurs in Saudi Arabia, it will have a dramatic impact that is off the charts," said Theodore Karasik, a regional affairs expert at the Dubai-based Institute for Near East and Gulf Military Analysis. "Policymakers will have to grapple with it for decades."
Both nations have been touched by the region's two-month-old turmoil: Iran with a renewal of street clashes and Saudi's rulers facing rare challenges to their absolute power, including a call for protests March 11.
Their responses, meanwhile, have reflected their mutual suspicions and their own survival instincts.
Saudi authorities have stood strongly behind Bahrain's Sunni monarchy, which is under siege by a revolt from that tiny kingdom's Shiite majority after decades of grievances over discrimination and other abuses. For the Saudis - and the rest of the Gulf's Sunni rulers - the Shiites in Bahrain represent a potential beachhead for Shiite powerhouse Iran.
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On Wednesday, Bahrain's monarch held urgent talks in neighboring Saudi Arabia with King Abdullah only hours after he returned home from recuperating from back surgery. In a clear sign of concern, Abdullah made the decree for the flood of cash into social programs and bank funds even before his plane touched down from Morocco.
Social media sites have been buzzing with appeals for a pro-reform march next month and calls for more freedoms, including lifting some of the strict limits on women such as bans on driving and voting. Activists also are pushing for the release of university professors jailed for forming a political party.
"We are witnessing a rebellion of the Arab peoples throughout the Arab world," said Nicholas Burns, Nicholas Burns, a former top State Department diplomat with long experience in the region. "While it may be most acute in Bahrain and Libya, there is every reason to believe that it will continue to spread for the time being."
Iran, meanwhile, has shown again its split personality. Its leaders, including President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, have portrayed Iran as a sort of father figure for the pro-democracy movements, which they claim have taken inspiration from its Islamic Revolution against the U.S.-backed shah.
At the same time, Iranian authorities are showing no mercy to oppositions groups in a country rejuvenated by the chain-reaction uprisings. Protesters' chants were similar to those during the chaos after Ahmadinejad's disputed elections in 2009, but with a current twist.
Ben Ali, Mubarak, it's Seyed Ali's turn," protesters cried last week, linking the toppled Tunisian and Egyptian presidents with Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. Riot police moved in with tear gas and batons.
"It is unimaginable that there is someone who kills and bombards his own people. This is very grotesque," Ahmadinejad said Wednesday on national TV after Gadhafi's forces attacked protesters.
More than once, the Obama administration and others have taken jabs at Tehran's "hypocrisy."
But Western policy makers cannot so easily dismiss the prospect that Iran could come out of the Mideast shake-ups with some new opportunities - just as the U.S.-led wars in Iraq and Afghanistan cleared the way for Iran gaining major influence with Shiite brethren.
One longtime foe, Hosni Mubarak, is gone. Egypt's emerging political class, which includes Islamist groups, is unlikely to be so tightly glued to U.S. policies on Iran. The Shiite-led uprising in Bahrain and relentless pressure on the American-allied president in Yemen also could hand Iran some new political space in the region.
And any significant cracks in the king's hold on Saudi Arabia, which has a small Shiite minority, would undoubtedly be hailed by Tehran.
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Iran sent two warships through the Suez Canal this week for the first time since the 1979 Islamic Revolution on a voyage to Syria that could take the vessels just outside Israeli waters.
Iran's plans for the Mediterranean were announced before Egypt's protests threatened Mubarak's regime. But it was a significant display of Tehran's confidence and efforts to expand its military reach beyond the Gulf, where the Bahrain-based U.S. 5th Fleet is the Pentagon's main counterweight.
Iran's Revolutionary Guard sent ships on a courtesy call to Qatar in January and held navy maneuvers with Oman this month in further signs of expanding ties in the Gulf.
The Dubai-based analyst Karasik said Iran increasingly views itself "as a pure regional hegemon because of the uprisings."
"They're taking advantage of the strategic change," he said.
It also suggests that Washington's clout could be slipping as its old-guard friends fall way or face demands for serious political overhauls.
"The rising tide of people power is so intense that the Middle East will either become democratic or will come under more stern control," said Ehsan Ahrari, a regional analyst and commentator based in Alexandria, Virginia. "Either way, the days of U.S. capabilities to influence events seem to be numbered."
There is still no clear signal about how far the protest wave with reach. The next test may come in Kuwait, where the nation's strong opposition groups have called for rallies outside parliament on March 8.
Many experts see a messy interregnum in the region with various groups competing for the upper hand and international investors running scared. The only obvious takeaway so far is that the political voices in the new Mideast will be far younger, deeply Web savvy and come in greater varieties - all of which could alter the rules of the Saudi-Iran standoff that has defined the region for decades.
The players include Egypt's once-outlawed Muslim Brotherhood and Bahrain's majority Shiites who have long been under the thumb of the kingdom's Sunni rulers.
"There will be trial and error in the combat for a new era," said Labib Kamhawi, a political analyst in Jordan. "But people, especially the young generation, seem strong and determined to succeed."
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Feb 24, 2011 - 01:40pm PT
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http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/02/2011224141158174266.html
The PA should dissolve itself in a similar manner by announcing that the responsibilities delegated to it by Israel are being handed back to the occupying power, which must fulfill its duties under the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949.
This would not be a surrender. Rather, it would be a recognition of reality and an act of resistance on the part of Palestinians who would collectively refuse to continue to assist the occupier in occupying them. By removing the fig leaf of "self-governance" masking and protecting from scrutiny Israel's colonial and military tyranny, the end of the PA would expose Israeli apartheid for all the world to see.
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2011 - 02:50pm PT
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Fatty
I do not understand why you think Israel is the solution to ME problem. IMO along with 1/4 world, Israeli is the biggest ME's problem.
Edit to add ; Feds just took the Saudi student in cause he was going after the kind and all this BS terrorist sticker do not really sticks to a anti Saudi king blogger.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Feb 24, 2011 - 08:13pm PT
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Who?
That what Obama's (and Farrkhan's and Jeremiah Wright's)buddy Gaddafi calls him. He's a muslim son of Africa according to Gaddafi.
He's a birther!!!! Unholy!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 24, 2011 - 08:14pm PT
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You consider Qaddafi a reliable source about anything? Really?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Feb 24, 2011 - 08:22pm PT
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You consider Qaddafi a reliable source about anything? Really?
No I don't. I was just using Gaddafi's words for a couple of different reasons.
EDIT:
So Bleuy...
What is Obama supposed to do?
What did he do with Egypt?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Feb 24, 2011 - 08:34pm PT
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At this point I'm very inclined to say kill Gaddafi. He's slaughtering civis into the thousands according to some. He's used his airforce to attack 'rebels'. Some would say protesters.
Send a public message that the U.S. doesn't support this and will use air assets to monitor and maintain air-control until sh#t settles down. The Libyan Air Force has pretty much bailed. With the lack of major surface-to-air resources we could control the skies initially.
Use GlobalHawks and SATs to find the rat. Use B1's, B2's, or whatever to take him out.
Question is, what then? Would the UN step in until elections? The E.U.?
We can't.
EDIT: Matt you're sh#t is tiresome. Can't you look it up? I'm sure a genius like you wouldn't have to.
He condemned the US ally Mubarak and hailed the frenzied protesters as 'youth seeking a new life', or some sh#t.
Where is he here???? NO F*#KING COMMENT????
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Feb 24, 2011 - 08:45pm PT
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Saudi Arabian King To Populace: "Don't Even Think About It"
RIYADH, SAUDI ARABIA—In a televised speech addressing the pro-democracy protests currently sweeping across the Middle East, King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia reiterated that the people of his country should not even think about it. "Get it out of your heads right now," the king said in a firm, unwavering tone of voice while staring directly into the camera. "I'm serious. Whatever you are thinking about doing, it’s not gonna end up good for you. Trust me." The king then widened his eyes, paused, and added, "No."
http://www.theonion.com/articles/saudi-arabian-king-to-populace-dont-even-think-abo,19302/
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Feb 24, 2011 - 08:57pm PT
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Why don't you look it up? :)
No, not from sources. In fact, he has said next to nothing as he parties in the White House tonight.
Maybe he won't criticize buddies? Like unions, Islamic thugs, and green-energy grifters....
And you thought Bush was bad. I laugh robustly, man. You just will never bring yourself to admit what is totally obvious to Americans now.
And I fing that kinda weak on your part. I try to be honest with myself. When I'm betrayed by my party I call it out. When I see Repubs being corrupt, I call it. You just can't do that with your lib reps.
Disengenuous and downright distrustful. You're a shame to reasonable discourse. You cannot have it. You twist it constantly for your own personal gain.
I find it disgusting. It's the worst kind of common discourse.
And the shame is you claim that libs/Dems are immune to this. You're a shame.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Feb 24, 2011 - 09:03pm PT
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Keep it up, Matt and DMT. Without links to disput my claim, you are the idiots.
Where did Obama call on Gaddaffi to step down and respect the will of the youth? Where did Gaddaffi not do the opposite and literally bomb his oppostion with gov't aircraft?
It's shocking how you 2 clowns try to appear intellectual and 'enlightened', and fail to disprove my points.
Idiots? Who's the idiot, Matt? DMT?
Meh....
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 24, 2011 - 09:13pm PT
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Most people don't cotton to foreigners telling them how to run their country. If the leaders of China and Russia went on TV before the last election and told Americans to vote against Obama that would have just gotten Obama more votes. It would work the same way in any other country, including Libya. The last thing the Libyan freedom fighters needed a few days ago was an endorsement from the United States and other foreign leaders. Now that they have enough momentum and have established their legitmacy as a Libyan movement (not agents of the U.S. or some other country), it doesn't hurt.
Bluering doesn't understand this, but most of the smart people in both parties do.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 24, 2011 - 09:16pm PT
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"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
Hermann Goering at his Nuremburg trial.
Dictators understand this. That is why whenever there is a movement to throw out any dictator anywhere, the dictator always claims it is a foreign conspiracy. When people suspect a foreign conspiracy, they rally around their leaders, even when they are dictators. If Obama had denounced Kadafi earlier than he did, this would have just helped Kadafi.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Feb 24, 2011 - 09:22pm PT
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Bluering doesn't understand this, but most of the smart people in both parties do.
Was it okay in Egypt? Tunisia?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 24, 2011 - 09:49pm PT
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February 14, 2011
Reporting from Washington — House Speaker John A. Boehner said Sunday he thought the Obama administration handled "a very difficult situation" in Egypt about as well as possible, undercutting potential Republican presidential candidates who have charged that President Obama botched the U.S. response to a popular revolt against a key ally.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Feb 24, 2011 - 09:58pm PT
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I'd agree with Boehner, granite.
Bleuy...
Obama has in fact made statements condemning Gaddafi's actions; something he never had to do regarding Mubarak.
The USA's first concern is the safety of the Americans who are still in Libya, as they have been since Dubya normalized relations with that country in (2006?)....
Gaddafi is toast, without US intervention, and our sending in the B-1 bombers in no way serves either Libya's or US interests.
He hasn't made the same veracity of arguement with regard to Libya. He's been almost silent except for one or two lines. It's gotta make ya wonder why Mubarak and nor the same for Gaddafi. He was pretty adament agaist Mubarak!
It just seems weird and suspicious to me. Why the difference?
It could be intelligence crap we don't know. Just seems weird. Gaddaffi was clearly a more brutal man, apparently directly ordering the attack on Lockerbie Americans.
If nothing else, that should differentiate the two men!
EDIT:
If Bluering was smart enough to become absolute dictator of a third-world country for 40 years,
Real question: Would I want to?????
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 24, 2011 - 10:09pm PT
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He hasn't made the same veracity of arguement with regard to Libya. He's been almost silent except for one or two lines. It's gotta make ya wonder why Mubarak and nor the same for Gaddafi. He was pretty adament agaist Mubarak!
It just seems weird and suspicious to me. Why the difference?
Maybe you are answering your own question.
It could be intelligence crap we don't know. Just seems weird. Gaddaffi was clearly a more brutal man, apparently directly ordering the attack on Lockerbie Americans.
If nothing else, that should differentiate the two men!
The news reports say that Obama and other Western leaders were advised by their experts that Gadaffi might target or take hostage Americans and other Westeners.
Gaddafi is far more brutal. He is like Hitler--he will go down fighting and doesn't care if he takes his whole country, or the whole world, with him. He has no conscience and will use his helicopter gunships and bombers against unarmed civilians. He brings in mercenaries to machine-gun his own people. He is sitting on an arsenal of mustard gas that he may use if he can. He has shown no hesitation in targeting innocent Americans and other Westerners.
You may remember that in the 80's he "purchased" an American hostage in Lebanon and had him executed. He also blew up a passenger jet (Lockerbie).
There are thousands of Americans in Libya. You don't just "denounce" someone like that and expect him not to hit back at you if he is able to. You're better of keeping your mouth shut and letting your bombers do your talking for you. Obama and others are getting more vocal now that Gaddafi is more isolated.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Feb 24, 2011 - 10:11pm PT
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Maybe, granite. But you give him too much creedance IMO.
You could denouce me for the opposite, rightfully. But...
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 24, 2011 - 10:12pm PT
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EDIT:
If Bluering was smart enough to become absolute dictator of a third-world country for 40 years,
Real question: Would I want to?????
You wouldn't want to have your own hand-picked female "virgin" (ahem) bodyguard in customized outfits?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 24, 2011 - 10:14pm PT
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Maybe, granite. But you give him too much creedance IMO.
If I were CIC, the bombers would already be on their way back to base, to reload.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 24, 2011 - 10:17pm PT
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When he was giving his speech on live TV with this statue of an American plane being crushed, was I the only one thinking how BEAUTIFUL it would have been for a U.S. F-15 to flash out of nowhere and take him out?
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Douglas Rhiner
Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
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Feb 24, 2011 - 10:56pm PT
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I can't wait 'til the guy that Jeff "tortured" finds out where he lives.....
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Feb 25, 2011 - 04:49pm PT
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Yeah, this is really gonna help relations....
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Feb 25, 2011 - 05:11pm PT
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It was auto-translated from Russian. There is a better translation now available at the link. Here's another;
http://www.kyivpost.com/news/russia/detail/98414/
DMT, so only military personnel can have geo-political opinions? That would be a bizarre world...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Feb 25, 2011 - 06:02pm PT
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Do you have an opinion, Bleuy?
I don't think I'm entitled to one, I never served, man....
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Feb 25, 2011 - 06:14pm PT
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Well....You know what they say about entitlements.
Hehe...
Regarding the Caucaus issue, if they want Russian authorities to leave them alone, they would quit blowing the sh#t out of people.
Quit giving the Russkies excuses! It never ends well for the 'ethnic' Caucasians.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Feb 25, 2011 - 06:40pm PT
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I thought it was relevant because it appears to an 'Islamic uprising'.
But not to to with Arabs. But then neither did Morocco, Tunisia, or Libya. Maybe it was Majid's thread that was mis-titled, no?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Feb 25, 2011 - 07:07pm PT
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Sorry Bleuy, but these places are comprised mostly of ethnic Arabs.
I suppose you're mostly correct, but it is considered N. Africa. I would imagine the ethnicity of NA has a lot to do Mohammamed's Long March bitd.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Feb 25, 2011 - 07:17pm PT
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Matt, I dunno know why you're obsessed with GB. I think he's lame.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 26, 2011 - 03:31pm PT
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Have they moved Serbia to the Caucasus? I must have missed that.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Feb 26, 2011 - 03:33pm PT
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I think they're considered Eastern Europe/Caucaus. No?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 26, 2011 - 03:37pm PT
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Serbia and the Caucasus are separated by about 3,000 km. The Black Sea, part of Russia, much of Ukraine, and Romania. Or, on the southern route, Turkey, Bulgaria, and Macedonia.
And Serbs are for the most part Orthodox Christians, whereas much of the Caucasus is Islamic. It wouldn't surprise me if Khaddafy had some mercenaries, and some of them were Serbians - possibly Serbians on the run from war crimes during the Balkan wars a decade ago. Maybe in his praetorian guard, to have some who are completely loyal. But it seems unlikely it goes much beyond that.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Feb 26, 2011 - 03:39pm PT
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What should be more compelling is why largely Christian Serbs are bombing a largely Islamic population that appears to be moderate. Under the orders os an Islamic whack-job, Ghaddafi?
Weird dynamic going on. Maybe rogue pilots?
EDIT: Ander may be correct. Good points!
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Feb 28, 2011 - 11:51am PT
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But Fats I thought you wanted the Arab countries to throw off their yokes of oppression.
Now if the sane Israelis would throw out the fundamentalist whack jobs that are dragging them to hell.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Feb 28, 2011 - 11:59am PT
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To quote Blewjob.
"That will really help relations".
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 28, 2011 - 12:30pm PT
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Fatty
Israel without US help would not be able to take Gaza. How do you want them to take over entire ME, especially EYE-RAN
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 1, 2011 - 12:09pm PT
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Fatty
looks like Israel just found oil and gas below the sands and now they do not need Egypt or other MEs for fuel support . More money, more power but remember fatty, they do not have manpower to do the job .
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nature
climber
Hampi Karnataka India
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but now the Israeli economy is doing very nicely,
meanwhile in the USA....
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Hate to respond to a self-deluded bigoted fatman butt when you write this:
"Well, now it has started, the Arabs are a bunch of idiots...
Who do you mean by a bunch of idiots?
Do you mean...these Arabs?
"In Sanaa, tens of thousands gathered outside the university, the heart of the protests."
and these
"Grievances about the growing disparity between Yemen's poor — nearly half the population of some 23 million..."
or just the knuckle-heads in power?
All those idiots deciding they want a chance to live their lives without some thugs making their decisions for them...hmmm
I wonder who the real idiot(s) are?
Cheers,
DD
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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"Grievances about the growing disparity between Yemen's poor — nearly half the population of some 23 million..."
or just the knuckle-heads in power?
All those idiots deciding they want a chance to live their lives without some thugs making their decisions for them...hmmm
I wonder who the real idiot(s) are?
Cheers,
DD
I hate to sound arrogant and 'Western' here, but do those 'idiots' know what is really good for them?
Sure they can do better than current thugs, but let's be honest here...
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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"I hate to sound arrogant and 'Western' here, but do those 'idiots' know what is really good for them?"
Come on Blue- dude you DO sound arrogant.
Who knows what's good for them-do you, does Obama, do I?...I'd argue that they have the right to decide for themselves what is good for them.
Sheesh we've made some terrible choices and errors in our history. Do you think anyone every asked "do those rebels (Americans) know what's really good for them?"
Do those Siuox know what's really good for them, do those Tibetans know what's good for them...?
How do you feel about that?
Cheers,
DD
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dirtbag
climber
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I think it needs boobs.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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The popularity of Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu has hit a new low, according to a Channel 10 News poll carried out by Prof. Camille Fuchs.
Only 32% of the respondents - just under one third - expressed support for Netanyahu. The number was down from 34% last month and 38% in the month before.
With the courts about to decide whether to charge Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman with various corruption related offenses, the public was asked if Lieberman was indeed corrupt, or was a victim of the Prosecution. Lieberman currently serves as Minister of Foreign Affairs and he also has the title of Deputy Prime Minister.
Twenty-five percent said the Prosecution had it in for him, 31% say Lieberman is guilty of extensive corruption and 44% said they did not know.
Lieberman and Prime Minister Netanyahu both have the same position of settlement expansion and for retaining Jerusalem as the undivided capital of Israel.
Wondering how many millions Netanyahu has skimmed off and in hidden bank accounts from agencies such as the Department of Commerce, the U.S. Information Agency, the Pentagon, Dept. of Commerce, grants and loans that Israeli’s do not have to pay back?
Fascists and Nazis next, Fatty. Welcome to the party.
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WBraun
climber
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Binyamin Netanyahu is one of the biggest ass'holes on the planet.
This guys is pure fuking evil ....
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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This guy's pure fuking evil ....
That rhetoric is a little much, Werner. I can think of better candidates for that title.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Netanyahu is defending his country from attackers on all sides, constantly.
And bring up that list, Matt?
Not Ghaddafi? Not the throat-cutters in Pakistain, Afghanistan who blow up girls' schools and throw acid in their faces?
Not Saddam and his sons?
Not the Kosovar rat who just shot dead 2 US servicemen a decade after we liberated those ungrateful bastards?
Not the Saudi punk we let into this country who was targeting civis with chemical weapons?
Not George Soros?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Lebanon, the 'territories', probably some Syrians too through the long arm of Iran.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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bluey, you are really screwey.................
what a f*#ked up individual.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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So why is Netanyahu so evil???
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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I guess my point was just knott made.
I'll try it again, though my 5th graders have a better ability at reading comprehension than some of you...
When you (Fatty) say the Arabs are idiots I was just wandering why you group an entire people together like that?
Do you (Blue made it clear what he thinks) actually believe that the entire Arab population of the Middle East (or world, you never were quite clean on that) or just the ones in power making the choices for "their" people ie; Libya, Yemen, etc...are idiots when you write; "...the Arabs are a bunch of idiots..."
I ask because it is telling of who you might be as a person...
Obviously Blue has serious doubts that any of them are intelligent enough to decide anything for themselves (which is why he comes off as an arrogant, bigoted, white man) but what about you Fatty?
Cheerio,
DD
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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He runs Mossad
This is where they push hot egg up your a*#, pull your nails right off your hand and run hot 220 volt all over your balls if you do not cooperate.
What's wrong with that? Do know know happens to non-Muslims captured by these terrorist freaks?
Matt, so how would you defend your people from Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran? WWMD? Surrender and hope the '67 clash doesn't re-occur?
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Those are pretty powerful images Crowley...especially the first 2.
Coz, I'm thinking you're right-Fatty is just a troll.
No real soul in what he says.
And if I'm wrong than that is a sad thing.
DD
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Those are pretty powerful images Crowley...especially the first 2.
Especially since suicide 'cafe/disco' bombings are almost non-existant now.
Those damn Jooos!!!! That evil Sharon and Netanyahu!!!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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No, how would you defend all of Israel's current borders? Not just Hamas, but from Hezbollah and Syria (Golan).
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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But some of you were brain washed growing up, that's how racism takes hold, sadly. But you CAN overcome!
Maybe you're the racist for failint to acknowledge the innovations Israel has made through work with US corporations. Intel Israel developed some of it's best processors. That's just one significant innovation.
Just today, the Paleo wackos fired an anti-tank missle at an Israli tank. Wanna guess why the missle never made it to the tank? Not US technology but we're buying it from them...
Story here;http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=317270&D=2011-03-02&SO=&HC=1
Matt, attacking Israel in '67 was in violation if Intl law too, no?
Was Japan attacking us in Pearl Harbor a 'legal action'? We decimated them with 2 bombs because they refused to surrender. Who ordered that?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Lol. OK Israel has made some technical innovations. Some Israeli companies have developed some interesting software.
I'd go further and say that they are cutting edge and they may actually be helping US more than you'd like to think.
At this point in our relationship, it has developed into a 2-way street. But I'd agree that they no longer need our help.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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"...yet Israel's very existence is threatened by a few garage-welded Quassam rockets and rock-hucking Palestinian children."
Right. "Side" with whomever you want (there's blame enough on both sides). But your remark is either very casual, or insane.
The day Israel's "very existence" is threatened is the day tens of millions of arab citizens will die. Don't kid yourself, allied to the U.S. or not, no-one will take Israel down easily.
One of the reasons why at least trying for peace there is so critical.
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2011 - 12:12pm PT
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Fatty
I agree with you on off loading the payloads but that can not be done alone so who would be the partner in crime ?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Is there a point to that cartoon?
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Diss Me, Kate
In the interest of civility, some sources have suggested that they weren't
invited simply because England couldn't afford the cost of the additional
security which would be needed to keep Michelle from eating all the jumbo
shrimp at the wedding reception. But we think there's more to it than that.
After all, Barack Obama has gone out of his way to offend the British every
chance he gets..
(cartoons and commentary)
http://hopenchangecartoons.blogspot.com/
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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There is a much easier way to assure the free flow of oil at market prices - DUMP THE ISRAEL / US ALLIANCE.
Dingus, if I'm not mistaken the majority of foreign US oil comes from Canada and Mexico.
Drilling more of our own oil would make us less dependant on OPEC oil, thus lowering prices. I don't see what Israel has to do with the price of oil. It's about OPEC gouging us at their will.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Scott, maybe you can summarize very briefly the gist of the book.
I don't think any sane person thinks we can use oil indefinately, but that doesn't mean we should stop within the next 20 years or so.
EDIT:
I'm not suggesting we go to war, I've lost many friends; but, I think our dependance on foreign oil, mostly OPEC oil, is causing great risk and problems not only for our future, but the Worlds future.
This book very clearly lays out, everything you need to know about the current situation, were we get our oil, how much is left, and what are the alternative.
Also the struggle for control and dominance of supply, there are many ways to control oil, with military power is extreme, but used most recently in the Iraq.
current
O.k.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Another thing that pisses me off is Iraq. First of all it was not a war for oil obviously, the first oil contracts went to the freakin' Chinese!!!
You'd think the ungrateful bastards could at least give us the initial contracts at bargain prices to repay their liberation from Saddam. Which carried a hefty pricetag.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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The Chinese-Iragi contracts are a clever way to gain leverage over
Hu Jintao, the General Secretary of China. The delivery of cheap Iraqi oil to China can suddenly be delayed by all sorts of shenanigans if things
are not kept copacetic.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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It was about removing a UN sanction violator from power. One who bragged of having WMD's. One who commited atrocities against his own people on at least 2 occassions.
We were tasked with watching this POS for 10 years while he defied UN sanctions. No-fly zones were threatened constantly by his ground troops with SAM sites.
At some point, you either pull out and say, "forget it!", or you remove the threat. Saddam and his Republican Guard.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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"Delhi Dog,
I am always referring to their dictators, quasi-elected leaders and most importantly, religious clerics."
Why don't you just f*king write that then...?
Sounds like you make a distinction...unlike Blue.
Thanks for answering my question.
Cheers,
DD
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Sounds like you make a distinction...unlike Blue.
What? I think you may have this backwards.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Since when did you start supporting the UN?
Never had, never will. But according to dipshits like you and others they are they arbiters of 'ultimate peace'. Sounds nice. It just nevers works.
We used that as an excusr to take out an obvious tyrant. That's all we needed. The UN dipshits had no arguement to counter us when we pointed out their fallacies.
Pretty smart actually. Unlike O-bummer. What an idiot. Mo-town celebrations and arts medals ceremonies while his buddy in Libya bomb his own people.
Woo-hoo!
Hey, wasn't Libya on the 'human rights council' too? And we get criticized for an accidental bombing of some civis hiding amonst Talibunnies....
What a crock.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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You're little, childish one line insults are tiresome. Get some facts and grow a sack.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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How about those Haliburton no-bid contracts the US borrowed Chinese money to give away. Whaddaya gonna do about it?
Did you have anything to say about Al Gore and Bill Clinton's no-bid contract regarding the Elk Hills Naval Reserves when they sold them off to Occidental Petroleum? Oh, Al Gore's Dad and he had stock in that company too!!!
Any comment, Dingus? A.C.? Anybody? Was that 'different'.
Losers....
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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So what would commader in chief Crowley, what would he have done with Iraq at the time?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dingus, what question? The Chinese deals? I would have told them to piss off.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Crowley doesn't utter racist remarks on a daily basis either, like you for example.
How am I a racist? I am far from it. I judge people based on character, despite their race.
It's idiots like y'all that judge people first on their race and then on what they say.
Did I ever make an untrue racist comment here???? If so, please post the quote for all to see.
Remember it has to be based on race.....
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Iraq posed NO THREAT to the US whatsoever and the lies that portrayed it differently were exposed 8 years ago.
No not really, but you are quick to forget history aren't ya? He invaded Kuwait and threatened Saudi Arabia, our 3rd source of oil. You think we'll let that stand?
That was the 1st Gulf War. Saddam didn't seem to want to relent. Just the opposite in fact...
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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"How am I a racist? I am far from it. I judge people based on character, despite their race.
It's idiots like y'all that judge people first on their race and then on what they say.
Did I ever make an untrue racist comment here???? If so, please post the quote for all to see.
Remember it has to be based on race....."
If you need to ask that, nothing I can show you that you have written will make a difference. You can knott recognize your own racist statements, therefore why point them out to you. That would be an exercise in fruitility.
It's like using the bible to prove God exist to people that do knott believe in God. Can't be done.
Sorry dude but I'm knott the only one that recognizes you as a bigotted racist... and I can knott prove to you you are.
By the way true or untrue racism is still racism...
later
DD
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dogtown
Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Fattad nailed it; it’s all on the U.S in the blame game. Even though The U.S. is the most generous nation on earth. There is no Peace keeping leadership in the Middle East at all. Not one. Let them kill each other and the U.S. should stay out of it. American leaders have done their best for decades to make peace. TIME TO LEAVE. Screw them and the oil!
Let me ask you all this; How many of you would rather help the homeless in the U.S. than give one more dime in aid those countries whose people and governments hate us?
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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"Let me ask you all this; How many of you would rather help the homeless in the U.S.than give one more dime in aid those countries whose people and governments hate us?"
Me, butt then I'd be called a bleeding heart liberal, or worse a Democrat...
Cheers,
DD
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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What was missing in that article with the NY times is this?
Gates did say in the speech that virtually every recent military involvement was unpredicted beforehand. He said "when it comes to predicting the nature and location of our next military engagements, since Vietnam, our record has been perfect. We have never gotten it right."
Which brings this to mind to the current ME situation and again with many analysts caught off-guard. [Which is typical with agencies: CIA and FBI not communicating with each other on“9/11 as another example”] and didn't foresee change in these movements.
Now that the CIA is clueless, it will be funny to see what they will do next, should they currently bribe or give $$$$$ to our favorite dictators to create the violence and terror to keep it status qua with guns and less butter or should they [we the taxpayer] be starting with building educational institutes, giving out free laptops to the poor and more MTV to the ME.
And just one more added thought: Would they get Fu#king Charlie Sheen off the air and change to it something more educational by adding maybe more Judge Judy or Springer shows.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Mar 11, 2011 - 08:42pm PT
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Matt, f*#k off!
Since Dean was chastized for mentioning this on the Japan quake thread, I'll bump it here.
I do sympythize with Japan. Let me premise that.
What happend in Japan was a 'natural' disaster' we can do nothing about these things but react to them in a compassionate manner. Help people in need.
Why have we not done that in Libya yet? WTF? They have military personeel firing on civilians. And we sit around with Marines off the coast doing nothing?
Obama is such a pussy that the French are looking hawkish on this matter. And good for them! But is this where we have gone?
It's not just troubling, but sad. We used to be a beacon of liberty that people harkened to for help. And we usually came.
I'm disappointed for my country.
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Mar 11, 2011 - 10:41pm PT
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Blue, you blather like an idiot. Seriously, you don't know sh#t about what's going on in Libya. You rant about conservative bullshit and then want us to jump in, spend a gazillion dollars playing world cop? Shhhh...just keep your insanity inside your head.
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 17, 2011 - 07:12pm PT
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So Situation in Bahrain and is Libya warming up. We'll see how thing will ends up in the next few weeks .
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Mar 17, 2011 - 07:18pm PT
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want us to jump in, spend a gazillion dollars playing world cop?
That is a total exagerration. And not really what I advocated.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Mar 19, 2011 - 09:52pm PT
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so anyway, i went bouldering today. it was sweet. so somethings going on in north africa? wtf? so out of touch. just shoot me.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Apr 29, 2011 - 06:28pm PT
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So the new government of Egypt plans to "normalize" relations with Hamas and the Iranian dictatorship while doing nothing to help their "brothers" in Libya, Syria or Iran.
Fattrad wins this round.
Fatrad: 1
Graniteclimber: 0
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Apr 29, 2011 - 06:32pm PT
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I think I earlier claimed getting rid of Mubarak was not a good idea right now. That nefarious forces would step in...
And how about that Syria? Me and TGT called that one too. That wonderful and peaceful Muslim Brotherhood is riling up shit!
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Apr 29, 2011 - 06:49pm PT
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Fatrad: 1
Bluering: 1
TGT: 1
Graniteclimber: 0
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Apr 29, 2011 - 07:17pm PT
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Well, granite, you get points for being honest. I'll give ya that.
And yeah, Crowley, when gov't forces started gunning down kids coming out of mosques in Libya, I was behind deposing Gaddafi. But you have to be careful with these countries. France and Italy, behind our firepower, should be the "nation-builders" in Libya. You can't just have a power vacuum.
The nasties will take over...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Apr 29, 2011 - 08:04pm PT
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Crowley, why do you keep copying posts? Are you afraid they'll be deleted like many of your posts?
I almost never delete a post. I stick to my guns.
Do you have any opinions on this thread. Personal opinions of the conflicts? Didn't think so. You just spout crap.
EDIT: Crowley, you're never right or wrong because you don't offer an opinion on the issues. You just spout crap.
Lame...If you have no opinion, then STFU!!! You're worse than people who take a stand or state an opinion, and are later wrong. You are lame, dude.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Apr 29, 2011 - 08:07pm PT
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And yer point is????
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Apr 29, 2011 - 08:26pm PT
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I also posted against Gaddafi.
That may have been a mistake also. He is bad, but his replacement might be worse.
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monolith
climber
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Apr 29, 2011 - 08:28pm PT
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Wait till the September elections in Egypt to decide who won our little debate. The brotherhood will win seats, but so will the secularists. Even Mubarak gave the brotherhood some political space to operate.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Apr 29, 2011 - 08:28pm PT
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If we didn't have Saddam hung, we could pay him to take his damn country back. We don't want it anymore.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Apr 29, 2011 - 08:30pm PT
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Are our "allies" in Afghanistan really much better then the Taliban? Should we dump them and cut a deal with the Taliban?
I'm on a roll here.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Apr 29, 2011 - 08:52pm PT
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Fatty is mostly correct. Maybe 10 years...
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Apr 29, 2011 - 11:13pm PT
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I hope Omar and Mohamed are correct this time as well.
http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/
Thursday, April 28, 2011
Middle East Transformation Will Not Favor Extremists
The ambiguity surrounding some Islamist powers involved in Middle East revolts raise questions in the West about the trajectory in which ongoing turmoil is taking the region. Skepticism is exacerbated by the fact that some Al-Qaeda affiliates are enthusiastically talking about the opportunities that change in the Middle East holds for them. Lessons learned from Iraq’s transformation suggest two things; that the emergence of even a stumbling democracy makes extremists more vulnerable to change themselves, and that the potential for evolution towards democracy is greater than that for relapse towards theocracy. The international community should therefore remain engaged until that outcome is achieved.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Egypt Muslim Brotherhood condemns Bin Laden death
(AP) – 2 hours ago
CAIRO (AP) — Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, a conservative organization with links around the Islamic world, has condemned the killing of al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden by U.S. forces as an "assassination."
The Brotherhood, which seeks the establishment of a state run according to Islamic principles through peaceful means, is Egypt's most powerful and organized political movement.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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GAZA (Reuters) – The Palestinian Islamist group Hamas on Monday condemned the killing by U.S. forces of Osama bin Laden and mourned him as an "Arab holy warrior."
"We regard this as a continuation of the American policy based on oppression and the shedding of Muslim and Arab blood," Ismail Haniyeh, head of the Hamas administration in the Gaza Strip, told reporters.
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2011 - 06:14pm PT
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Now things are cooking in Iran
Get ready
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marv
Mountain climber
Bay Area
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what's the difference between Pan-Arabia 2011 and Colonial America circa 1776? Why hasn't democracy sprouted up by now? [this is a rhetorical question; I'm confident I have the answer]
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Ask Alex.
De Tocqueville
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Marv, by creating a system of government that is independent of the religion of the land?
I.e. No Sharia.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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NOBODY EXPECTS THE IRANIAN INQUISITION!
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Aug 21, 2011 - 06:28pm PT
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Good riddance Gaddafi!
Next: Assad.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Aug 21, 2011 - 10:29pm PT
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Let's hope Gaddafi is brought before the Hague. Yes, Yes.
Need to wait 48 hours, Hope? no last thing that he can come up that he told his followers/troops to do that will go in hiding?
If and If NATO: France, Greece and US do not blow it maybe there can be change. At least one thing with him gone, Africa might have a chance for survival.
Yes GC: Assad next, then Fattie.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Aug 21, 2011 - 10:58pm PT
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Wrong order.
Fattie first, then Assad.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Aug 21, 2011 - 11:36pm PT
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excellent assessment
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Aug 22, 2011 - 03:30pm PT
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apogee
climber
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Aug 22, 2011 - 03:32pm PT
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Obama is still wrong.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 22, 2011 - 03:39pm PT
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Fatty, check with your masters. Israel would much rather have the devil it knows - Syria under Assad and the so-called Baathists - than an unstable new government there, dominated by religious extremists.
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