Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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jstan

climber
Jul 3, 2012 - 11:14am PT
Instead of walking a path and taking forks in the road, jump off the path and walk in a circle and cross all of the other paths. Enlightenment is to discover what you are missing

It may or may not be true but I suspect there is a sexual dimorphism here. Women, rather more than men, seem interested in trying out new things.

Believe me when I say men are in no position to claim this is bad.
MH2

climber
Jul 3, 2012 - 11:20am PT
Wait! What the weather be doin'?

Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 3, 2012 - 11:26am PT
Instead of walking a path and taking forks in the road, jump off the path and walk in a circle and cross all of the other paths. Enlightenment is to discover what you are missing


OK, you've jumped off the path, went to the farthest ends of your mind, know yourself inside and out, tossed away all delusion

and am ready to see what I am missing...

What is it?
What are we missing?
What is enlightenment?
Who has achieved it?
What do they say is different?
They must be able to tell me something I don't understand.

I say there is no there, there
It's a wild goose chase that never ends, it's a trap that keeps the faith of it's existence alive.
go-B

climber
2 Timothy 1:9-10
Jul 3, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 3, 2012 - 01:29pm PT
What is it?
What are we missing?
What is enlightenment?
Who has achieved it?
What do they say is different?
They must be able to tell me something I don't understand.

I say there is no there, there
It's a wild goose chase that never ends, it's a trap that keeps the faith of it's existence alive.
--


My sense of this is that "you" are not asking these questions. Your discursive is asking, and because the discursive mind only understands things one way, unless you can locate "what is missing," some tangible super duper juju quantifiable stuff, the discursive mind will always cry fowl.

So maybe the first step is to try and break the trance of the rational mind and perhaps another world will open up. Maybe not.

JL
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 3, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
Probably not

Probably it is all apologetics on your side
We (scientists) are ready to take a look at Enlightenment
And You have nothing to show us
go-B

climber
2 Timothy 1:9-10
Jul 3, 2012 - 01:40pm PT

John 8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jul 3, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
Glad to see you have a sense of humor go-B ! I would guess though (being realistic as well as politically incorrect) that more women have been blinded by scientific men that men blinded by science women.


And Dr. F.,

Stop searching for enlightenment and just take baby steps in learning how to control your own mind. See what happens. I bet you can't stare at your most attractive cactus for even three minutes, saying cactus cactus cactus and keep your mind from wandering off that plant.

Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 3, 2012 - 02:28pm PT
Jan
I have meditated for years
so you and Largo are way off

I can quiet my mind just fine
I can step outside my mind, and do almost everything you guys say is SO Great and mystical

I just say it is Not enlightenment, not spiritual, it is just the mind, which is beyond comprehension

I'm looking for the something that you guys say I'm missing
I say it doesn't exist

Prove it does
without saying I (Dr. F) am not doing it right.
I want facts about this missing enlightenment


I am not doing it right is the Whole Point
No one does it right, so they never reach enlightenment

IT'S Not because they are not doing it right, but because it's Unattainable
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 3, 2012 - 02:30pm PT
We (scientists) are ready to take a look at Enlightenment
--


If one were to deconstruct this statement, it would tell much of what is stopping Dr. F in his tracks.


First, there is no dichotomy between scientists and people engaged in subjective explorations. Many of the people in my Zendo are research scientists and doctors at UCLA. The belief that internal explorations are someow at odds or run contrary to "science" is entirely false. Likewise, the idea that such internal explorations are yet other efforts at measuring is also false, and leads one to exactly to where Dr F. now sits.

Now the first task is to ask; What does, "Take a look" actually mean. It means that you are going to probably sit still and start analyzing your experience, or sit there and wait for something to happen. In other words, you are entering the exploration with some expectation that "enlightenment" is a state or some special way of seeing or knowing "things," and lest one finds that state or some definable aspect of "enlightenment," it is bogus and nothing.

So the first step is to do what Jan suggests and spend enough time to stabilise your awareness and attention, and then start looking not at enlightenment, which is not a thing anyhow, and instead start observing that part of you who is compulsively looking and desiring results. Once and not a second before you break the trance and identification with the "looker," can you move a little further on down the line.

But that is the baby step - and not one person in 10,000 ever takes it.

JL

Craig said: I can quiet my mind just fine. I can step outside my mind, and do almost everything you guys say is SO Great and mystical.

Quieting the mind has little to do with it.

I never used the word "mystical." What does that mean?
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 3, 2012 - 02:33pm PT
Wrong again
I gave up looking a long time ago

After I realized the truth
It's unattainable

Take baby steps doing what??

So condescending

I'm just trying to see if anyone else out there has anything to bring to the table.

Obviously, I am right, There is No There, There
You have Nothing to tell me except, that I'm not doing it right,
which is the same as Go-Be telling me I am going to hell because I don't read the bible, pure non-sense

If you were right, there would be all kinds of stuff written that I could research and learn more about this so called "Enlightenment"
Scientific studies, not anecdotal stories from long ago
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 3, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
If you were right, there would be all kinds of stuff written that I could research and learn more about this so called "Enlightenment"


What kind of "stuff" were you hoping to find way back when you were searching?

Did it ever occur to you that "searching" was the problem, and that "quieting your mind" has almost nothing to do with any of it?

Also, as mentioned, what is the chance of one becoming an accomplished scientist by taking up measuring as a kind of cool hobby and practicing in the privacy of your own home, with no qualified teachers, no curriculum or course work, no alumni? Has this EVER been done in modern times?

The other thing, Craig, is that suggestions that you take baby steps is not condescending, it's a friendly nudge to try and break the trance you're in of having to be "right."

JL
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 3, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
Dr F,

I kinda wish you would not be so dismissive of what cannot be scientifically quantified.

Respectfully, I happen to agree with a lot of what you say.

But, your "dismissive arrogance" is, true or not, suggestive of a sense of superiority on your part.

Much of what you say appears to be your sense of certainty, that you are "right", and therefore other opinions are not only different from yours, but by implication, wrong.

This can be offensive to others, especially when they are honestly trying to delve into,
to attempt to explain, thoughts that do not happen to be conducive to be proven or disproven with scientific certainty.

My comments are not any kind of personal "attack", just my own observations.

John
MH2

climber
Jul 3, 2012 - 04:01pm PT
//You have Nothing to tell me except, that I'm not doing it right,
which is the same as Go-Be telling me I am going to hell because I don't read the bible, pure non-sense//


JL and Go-b may be right even if we don't understand or believe what they are telling us. However, the rain will still fall and the sun will still shine if the majority of us do not take the path they are pointing to. It is their lengthy attempts to persuade that are curious. As though they were not sure of themselves.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 3, 2012 - 06:38pm PT
the difference being that modern physics (and science in general) does not require "experts" to interpret your progress...


I honestly think that this is another confused take on what the subjective adventures are about. I take the above to mean that the interpretation has to do with facts, figures, or some strange info or at any rate something for the discursive mind to "interpret" per ones progress. This, in unconscious ways, is still conceiving the process as a mental task which begets largely cognitive - but unquantifiable - results that an expert needs to interpret with voodoo and witchcraft for the lack or any "answers."

If you go back a few post you will see that I said that the opposite of the discursive mind is "subtle mind," and that it is hooked up to being and knowing, and is the fruit of silence and listening. So the "expert" that is "interpreting your progress" is not looking for any cognitive output, but a demonstration of subtle mind. I think what throws people on this thread is their difficulty to see reality as something different than a problem to be solved.

Also, unless I'm mistaken, science is pretty much run by experts - that is, you don't just stumble into a job at CERN, for instance. Look at their past and you'll see the curriculum I mentioned earlier, with massive coursework and plenty of years studying under experts. Naturally, there is no other way.

JL
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 3, 2012 - 07:01pm PT
I ask for information on enlightenment, because I don't believe it exists
and the only answer I get is that "I" have to do this and that (not sure what) in my mind to know about it

"I" don't have to do anything, I want toinformation about enlightenment, Not become enlightened

Confusion, yes
Dismissive, maybe, SO What

After all this talk about enlightenment, No on can tell me if exists or not, can't name one person that is enlightened, nor can show me any scientific studies about it

No, I'm supposed to take baby steps and find it myself ???

I said it doesn't exist, How can I find it, I say there is nothing to find

It comes down to this
Do you have Anything to bring to the Table or not
So far, there is nothing

just more talk about what we don't know
Endless talk about Not knowing, how we can't know it all, we can never know, or
Dr. F, you are trying to hard, not hard enough, the wrong way, go backwards, then sideways
If there are enlightened people, Where are they?
That is the question,

I don't want to hear about what Dr.F should do,
I want to find out if people are enlightened or not, and what it is.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 3, 2012 - 07:03pm PT
You don't need a degree nor any specially qualified teachers to do science
Anyone can do it
jstan

climber
Jul 3, 2012 - 08:05pm PT
Let's take a look at that wonderful old philosophical question does a falling tree make "sound" if no one is there to hear it.

First, the experiment that answers this question is apparent to even the most handicapped among us. Go out and cut three quarters of the way through the trunk of a dead old tree. Set up a tape recorder next to the tree, set it going, and then go away. After a good wind storm come back and listen to the recorder.

If we then retreat into arguments as to whether perturbations in air pressure amount to "sound" if there is no member of homo sapiens to hear it we know that our specie is so blinded by ego that we collectively are incapable of logical behavior leading to learning. Change is the only constant in real worlds. We live in a real world. Those who doubt this need to review our present unemployment rate. If we are unable to learn, we are doomed to extinction.

Second, we need to ask why the very capable people here, who might better be out advancing our culture, waste their time in discussions that are absurd on their face. I advanced a hypothesis quite some time ago. Homo sapiens is now well advanced into a hive culture. My evidence? Look at a TV presentation in which Mitt Romney utters the word "Obamacare" and hundreds of educated people begin screaming, dancing around the fire, and shaking placards (the modern equivalent of the leg bones of their ancestors) in the air.

Just by the fact we are bound together we have no choice but to engage in these discussions no matter how absurd the premise. We are doing the dance bees do when the hive organizes to repel an invader.

It would be hopeful if with each new absurd premise we, at least, realized what this dance is.

A collective excitation. A many body problem. For which we do not yet possess a solution.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 3, 2012 - 08:14pm PT
But there you have it, us analytic types just don't get it... you need to be told, or shown... and if we claim we don't do it that exact way, well, we are either lying or delusional...
-


The point is that the whole enlightenment thing has been going on for 3,000 years. There have been a huge number of techniques worked out so a person can get to square one and see for themselves. Most of the people who have made it any ways down that path are themselves very "analytical types." I certainly am. So as with virtually every other specialized area of study, it greatly behooves us to avail ourselves of the best teachers. The great thing about this is you can see what you are chasing after modeled before your very eyes. This is a great help, like seeing someone send a boulder problem. You get to see the sequence.

As Ed said, there is nothing in nature saying a person couldn't get CERN level physics down pat in the privacy of their own room, but this would be almost miraculous. Likewise, I'm sure some people have had great awakenings without teachers, but the path is so difficult that it is an exceptional long shot of it ever happening and cannot be recommended. A person is bound to just end up doing relaxation exercises or breath work or trying to settle their monkey mind, when this is just the approach, the hike in.

Craig wrote:

It comes down to this
Do you have Anything to bring to the Table or not
So far, there is nothing

If you want to find out what this is all about, sit down and start listening to this "nothing" you keep writing about till your mind cracks in half. You will not find in any of the literature any exceptions to this practice. It is VERY counterintuitive, but that "nothing" that you mentioned is the wormhole in. In Zen it is variously called Mu, the gateless gate, and various other names.

If you want to see someone about this and you are serious, Craig, see Charles Fletcher who is the Abbott at the Mountain Zen Center in Idyllwild. He's part of the Soto Zen lineage and studied under Matzumi Roshi for 25 years and finally was made a Sensai in the early 1990s. When I asked him about enlightnment, he gave me a video of the Red Hot Chile Peppers playing naked in the snow. I was pissed. I wanted answers! He said, Fine. Sit on the mat and shut up and listen.

There's no other way.

JL
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jul 3, 2012 - 08:28pm PT
. . . stare at your most attractive cactus for even three minutes, saying cactus cactus cactus . . .



Cactus, cactus, cactus . . .
I know that you exist
Because your images in my mind
Persist, persist, persist . . .

Please put my mind at ease . . .
Pluck logic from its core
Send me qualia raw and bare
So I shall fret no more . . .


;>)
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