Politics, God and Religion vs. Science


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Dr. F.

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 29, 2014 - 07:20pm PT
No thanks

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jun 29, 2014 - 07:53pm PT
The Bible is perfectly readable as long as you suspend disbelief.

What part of
Then I saw when the Lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, “Come.” I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
is so hard to understand??

It's definitely more charming in King James' version, the only one I have.
And I sawe when the Lambe opened one of the seales, and I heard as it were the noise of thunder, one of the foure beastes, saying, Come and see.

And I saw, and behold, a white horse, and hee that sate on him had a bowe, and a crowne was giuen vnto him, and hee went foorth conquering, and to conquere.

And when hee had opened the second seale, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
And when hee had opened the fourth seale, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

And I looked, and behold, a pale horse, & his name that sate on him was Death, and hell followed with him: and power was giuen vnto them, ouer the fourth part of the earth to kill with sword, & with hunger, and with death, and with the beastes of the earth.
What part of "fourth part of the earth" is obscure?

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 29, 2014 - 08:07pm PT
Why would anyone read the bible as though it were soley a historical document? Facts and figures will avail you nothing in the spiritual arena. Take this from the Song of Songs:

Until the day break, and the shadows flee away, turn, my beloved, and be thou like a roe or a young hart upon the mountains of Bether.

What do you make of it? What does your mind try and turn this into? What does it say?


Dr. F.

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 29, 2014 - 08:09pm PT
I believe what you encountered is the esoteric realizatioin that raw awareness is not local. It is not confined nor yet "created" by the neurobiology that seemingly hosts it, nor yet is it separate from all the other things - that is, it does not exist in a vacume as a stand-alone "thing." This, perhaps, is half of the equation refered to as "body and mind" falling away.

It is not unusual for people to have these experiences early on in practice. Some people freak out because you are not grounded in the normal sense of the word and instead it can feel at once freeing but homeless. A common way to approach this is to keep boring into the very nature of "what" is free, or scared, or having a transcendent expoerience, or questioning if this is inferior to what the Zen masters experience and so forth.

IOWs, WHAT is that which asks these questions, that has these experiences, that wonders about others, and so forth.

Seeing that this "I" that can even walk through walls is no-thing at all is the part that takes time because our minds want to codify and actualize this into a self, a higher self, a spiritual entity, a non-corporeal experiencer, and so forth. The tendency and inner imperative to reify this into something we can name and know and have a feel for is a stubborn and innate aspect of the mind that I have never seen simply fade away in ANYONE without tons of practice, and even thin it can reconstitute in a flash.

similar reaction

no comprendo
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Jul 30, 2014 - 05:09pm PT
attached is an interesting commencement speech at Stanford by Norman Fisher
SF zen center priest. http://everydayzen.org/teachings/2013/how-survive-your-promising-li?&sort=newest

What does a zen teacher tell a entitled new Stanford grad. ?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 30, 2014 - 05:15pm PT
Why would anyone read the bible as though it were... a historical document?

Really? This needs to be explained?

Because that's what generations of folks were taught - from babies on up. Maybe not in some families or communities but in plenty others. From sea to shining sea, time to get real now.

"In The End of Faith, I argued that such people don’t know what it’s like to really believe in God or Paradise—and hence imagine that no one else actually does. The symptoms of this blindness can be quite shocking." -Sam Harris


Cling to what is good!
Jul 30, 2014 - 07:05pm PT
1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

...the best for last!

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 30, 2014 - 07:36pm PT
I argued that such people don’t know what it’s like to really believe in God
I know what it's like to believe in the Easter Bunny and then find out that bunnies don't lay eggs.
My entire 6 year old epistemology crumbled. I've had the agony of a lifetime reconstructing it so that rabbits CAN lay eggs.
Now I'm at peace.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 30, 2014 - 11:05pm PT
Kidnapped for Christ?


Hope is young people.

Somewhere out there
Jul 31, 2014 - 06:21pm PT
What do you make of it? What does your mind try and turn this into? What does it say?

 Right.... In the long view of things... placing the human in a box for clear observation..... doesn't it look like a bunch of humans making things up as they see fit?

Social climber
Elk Grove, CA
Aug 1, 2014 - 05:44pm PT
Had religion jammed down my throat in my youth and tried in earnest to surrender to the punishing god.
Always felt judged, shamed, with none of the joy and seeming iniquity lauded by all the followers.
Pious were the faithful, with eyes turned up to the sky as they lined up one by one, and stepped off the precipice.
Like lambs led to the slaughter, they leapt into the void.
F--- it I said, blasphemed, and walked away.
So I tried to find god in a rock, a mushroom, a woman, a song, my pain.
Analyzed the latter and found the experiment to be too much.
F--- it I said, and walked away, with no god to save me in the night sky.
But oh, look at her, isn't she a beaut'.
Who needs to live forever when we can have this, be this, breathe this for one great starry night?
Oh, to just love a rock, a mushroom, a woman, a song, sweet sorrow, and the cosmos.

Ice climber
great white north
Aug 2, 2014 - 05:26pm PT
An American scientist has invented a fuel-less space drive, which has been given the seal of approval by NASA after being tested.

Fetta's engine works by pushing against particles in what's called empty space, which in turn, creates thrust. Of course, space isn't actually empty, so, in theory, this works. The term for this is "quantum vacuum virtual plasma." In NASA's tests of the system, thrust happened without any need for fuel, making this engine the first of its kind to get the space agency's approval.


Aug 2, 2014 - 05:57pm PT
So what ....

No one can leave this planet to live on other planets without the proper bodies and passport.

And what to speak of the spiritual planets which no material vehicles can enter.

You have and will continue to fail with out those .......

Ice climber
great white north
Aug 4, 2014 - 07:55pm PT
Evolution is nothing more than a fairly simple way of understanding what is unquestionably happening. You don't believe in it — you either understand it or you don't. But pretending evolution is a matter of faith can be a clever way to hijack the conversation, and pit it in a false duality against religion. And that's how we end up with people decrying evolution, even as they eat their strawberries and pet their dogs, because they've been led to believe faith can only be held in one or the other.

But there's no reason for people of faith to reject the mountains of data and the evidence of their own senses. Reconciling is easy: Believe, if you want to, that God set up the rules of evolution among His wonders, along with the laws of physics, and probability, and everything else we can see and measure for ourselves. But don't deny evolution itself, or gravity, or the roundness of Earth. That's just covering your eyes and ears. And only monkeys would do that.


Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 4, 2014 - 10:31pm PT
That was a good post Malemute!
It is easy to look at animals physical similarities and see the resemblaritys. BUT, it totally another thing to say one specie mutated into another specie. You just can't do it! There is no science for that. That's just one thing. And I'm not posturing here against evolution. Only against the opinion that evolution is the ONLY way for life to have started.

because they've been led to believe faith can only be held in one or the other.

I took your point seriously and went back and read Genesis ch 1,2 again. Low and behold new revelation to me! And I ask anyone to double check.

Chap 1 ends after the 7 days of Creation. God created the heavens and earth, plants, animals, and then man and woman, then rested. Chap 2 starts with God seeing no plants had grown, the earth was bare so he caused it to rain and from the SEEDS life shot forth. THEN he took a man named Adam and put him in a separated garden... Once Adam and Eve had children, they went out into the world where there was... MORE PEOPLE! So I certainly don't think the creation of Man started with Adam.

I really think Christians need to take a close look at this!!!

I have yet to hear ANY mans theory of the origin of life, be it evolution or creationism that sounds 100% right to me! I think we should all take a big humility pill and guzzle a bunch of water!!
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Aug 5, 2014 - 05:18am PT
Only against the opinion that evolution is the ONLY way for life to have started.

Thus far counter-opinions range from fantasy through mythology to to superstition. What do they all have in common?

Proof... they ain't got none.




They got nothing, out here in the world, you see.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 5, 2014 - 09:19am PT
re: emotional no-go areas
re: where logic dare not show its face
re: gender differences
re: degrees of rape


Social climber
Elk Grove, CA
Aug 5, 2014 - 09:30am PT

When I was a lad I was climbing a rock,
and came across an enormous flock,
All barefoot the crowd had nary a sock,
Those flower children really knew how to rock,
Playing classical jazz with a beat you can't knock,
and fusion funk versions of Johann Bach,
I partied until I no longer could walk,
and that's what happened when I went to Popestock.

Don't knock,
Sebastion Bach,

Don't knock,



Social climber
Elk Grove, CA
Aug 5, 2014 - 03:49pm PT
on a more serious note these are my views on:

God’s Will vs. the Scientific Method

In my early life being born into a religious family fear and peer pressure were always the greatest motivators of my religious beliefs. After my parents’ divorce and my father’s subsequent leaving of the church and the ministry, I lost all faith. For years I was torn between believing in the ideology of my religious upbringing or of accepting a factual physical world full of changes, innovations, a Cultural Revolution, and new found knowledge along with fantastic breakthroughs in medicine, technology, and space exploration. The latter was contrary to all my religious upbringing whereby I was asked to take everything on faith and to focus all my attention on the repeated study of one book.

This so called ‘Christian' philosophy was tied to racism, the abuse of women and children, and the subjugation of the masses. It appeared to me that the pious and righteous were more interested in maintaining the reins of power than they were in any kind of devotion to family, humanitarian ideas, and open expression of ideas and thought.

How could I continue to believe in just one book and ideology when I could read many books and believe in and be open to many ideologies?

Any study of the holy war in the Middle East reveals how patently obvious it is that politics and religion are married at the hip. The fact that the scientific ideas and technology of today have been proven beyond all expectations shows how petty and moronic is it for some religious leaders to incorporate a new form of mysticism into their theology called 'creationism' in order to justify their outdated worldview.

Fear and peer pressure remained for me a motivator to claim the title of ‘Agnostic’ throughout my early adulthood and I was unable to tear myself away from the idea that God might still exist, if only for the purpose of satisfying my fear of not to being left out of some grand plan or purpose. I still had no clue as to what this grand plan of god might be and I hovered on the periphery of one philosophy or another.

All this time would have been wasted were it not for the fact that it cemented in me a yearning to believe in something that I could wrap my mind around and physically touch, the real world that I live and breathe in. This would require that I accept death as the endgame and to love and learn to experience life day by day for all of its worth.

For the last several years I have embraced this as ‘Atheism’ and the believe in scientific ideas, changing and evolving as they constantly are. What a relief to accept that we live in a world that relies on science and technology for 99% of our physical comfort, medical well being, personal safety, and overall survival, and to give full credit where credit is due; The scientists, school teachers, people of medicine, test pilots and astronauts, and all the people who have sacrificed and risked everything to throw off the reins of tyranny in the hope for the free flow of scientific ideas and democratic processes of a free society.

Yes, I'm an atheist. Some people don't like it and I can accept that. I have too spent too much time already trying to figure out something I could never figure out and I know I'm a reasonably intelligent person, but religion should not be rocket science.

Physicists often speak of trying to "read the mind of God". I wonder if they say this because of their own personal faith or if they are just trying to appease their theologian colleagues. I wish they would just say that it's about their search for knowledge. That's why I have always been interested in learning about science in the first place. Of all the important events that have happened during my lifetime I would have to say the Apollo Landing, the ending of the Vietnam war, the falling of the Iron curtain, the creation of the internet, and the election of Barack Obama as president have been the most pivotal.

People say this or that is God's will or that it is not for us mortal beings to always know God's plan.

People ask if are you are angry at God for taking a loved one and then telling you that it was the right time for that person to meet their reward, and they are now in a better place.

All these ideas are subject to the priest’s and clergy’s interpretation of what they believe is God's will.

If you truly believe you can read the mind of God, or hear God speaking through you, or have been given a calling, how does this supersede other people's rights or experiences?

My disclaimer; these are my thoughts and not God talking through me, in fact I've never heard voices in my head besides that of my own dreams, consciousness, and/or instinct.

My opinion:

If you want to learn about the past, study religion... or study history.

If you want to learn about the present or stay in the now, meditate... or pay more attention.

If you want to learn about the future, get a crystal ball... or study science.


Social climber
Elk Grove, CA
Aug 5, 2014 - 04:06pm PT
on a less serious note did you know this?

The word of the day; Squizzi-dribble-jiblification
Definition; Running the wiper blades on your car to clean off the grease on your windshield that drips from above while driving through a tunnel that goes underneath a city block of fast food restaurants.
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