Politics, God and Religion vs. Science


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Mar 26, 2014 - 01:53am PT
Blu your statement is worded to imply ALL addicts, not a portion and not a single individual, can distinguish immorality.

How did you determine your statement is correct for all crackheads?

Social climber
An Oil Field
Mar 26, 2014 - 11:03am PT
As I have gotten older, my view on personal morality has changed a lot. I am far more tolerant and empathetic of others. Kind of backwards, really. Most people get old and find God or conservatism with its insane moral codes. You know, hate gay marriage but still give lip service to Love Thy Neighbor at church on Sundays.

I'm sure that a lot of it is based on my Christian upbringing, but as I got older and built up experience, it has become harder and harder to pin it down to one source. Just go watch the film "Ghandhi," and if that doesn't make you think twice and re-evaluate your actions, then you have a black heart.

The whole idea of legislating morality makes me want to spew, though. Religion is not necessary to be moral, even incredibly moral.

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 26, 2014 - 11:16am PT
John L. has suggested a study of sentience and I applaud this proposal. Get us started John.

I hope to soon enough. I've been dealing with the death of Sean "Stanley" Leary and haven't had the gusto to launch into the discussion just now, but soon.

Dr. F.

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 26, 2014 - 11:23am PT
Credit: Dr. F.

22,000 posts
The thread that just keeps on going with 10 different conversations at once

Please, Carry on

Trad climber
Mar 26, 2014 - 11:52am PT

Thanks for the pointer, BK. I'd say that the focus of their work is not what is moral (or not) but rather how do groups view morality. It might be similar to the difference between classifying art, and creating art. One is cognitive and conceptual. The other is lived, personal, and experientially engaged.


Aren't all morals, ethics, and laws culturally-bound and socially-defined? It would thus seem that (i) all views (whether Christian or Buddhist or atheist) are alike (in that regard). In keeping with Bruce Kay's pointer, there is no real difference among them but for content. They serve the same purpose--crowd control for the elite. On the other hand, (ii) if there were no others (if the multiplicity of all are just an expression of the ONE), then what purpose would morals, ethics, or laws really serve? If there are Not Two but only ONE (no dualities), then morals, ethics, and laws are ultimately meaningless--maybe even more than useless:

"The Master does nothing,
yet leaves nothing undone.
The ordinary man is always doing things,
yet many more are left to be done."

"The kind man does something,
yet something remains undone.
The just man does something,
and leaves many things to be done.
The moral man does something,
and when no one responds
he rolls up his sleeves and uses force."

When the Tao is lost, there is goodness.
When goodness is lost, there is morality.
When morality is low, there is ritual.
Ritual is the husk of true faith,
the beginning of chaos."
(Tao de Ching, Chapter 38)


Thanks. Yeah, sentience would be a fine starting place for something or another. It might encourage attention to experience rather than to concepts, but I imagine that the focus of the conversations will be about ideas.

You can see that I'm very much focused on the very experience of experience itself. Simply be who you cannot help but be.

Mar 26, 2014 - 12:00pm PT
The stop and red lights at the intersections are ultimately totally meaningless laws according to Mike L.

Thus today I will just keep on driving thru them and never stop ......


John 6:44
Mar 26, 2014 - 12:11pm PT
Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil.

Job 42:1 Then Job answered the Lord and said:
2 “I know that You can do everything,
And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.
3 You asked, ‘Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?’
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
4 Listen, please, and let me speak;
You said, ‘I will question you, and you shall answer Me.’

5 “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear,
But now my eye sees You.
6 Therefore I abhor myself,
And repent in dust and ashes.”

...Job learned his lesson of vindicating himself before God, can we learn from him?

The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Mar 26, 2014 - 12:17pm PT

Mar 26, 2014 - 12:29pm PT
Cuz there's still plenty of good real estate left 75 feet up a tree for anyone with a prehensile tail.

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Mar 26, 2014 - 12:54pm PT
For Base-

Gandhi said that his life was based on three inspirations - the works of Leo Tolstoy, the Bhagavad Gita, and the New Testament. He was inspired by a Russian pacifist from the Orthodox Christian tradition, the classical Hindu tradition, and reformers and rebels operating from a foundation of Jewish tradition. Pretty eclectic. It would be interesting for you to note maybe, how much your growing tolerance as you've aged, has come from being exposed to other cultures and traditions (Arctic peoples for example) while operating from a foundation of Methodism which is a generally liberal, tolerant form of Christianity.

Speaking of which, if you're not familiar with Huston Smith, you'd enjoy watching the interviews of him by Bill Moyers. He grew up the son of Methodist missionaries in China and realized at a young age, that there was much that Christianity could not explain.He went on to become a professor of comparative religion and wrote the first textbook in America putting Christianity on an equal footing, rather than a superior one, to all the others (an event that occured only in the late 1950's). Today he attends Methodists services, does an hour of yoga, sits an hour Zen style, prays five times a day silently to himself, and observes the Jewish Sabbath, living/ experiencing what he teaches.

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Mar 26, 2014 - 01:01pm PT
Speaking of living what you teach, I've always found the Society of Friends (Quakers) to be very inspirational in that regard. Their silent meetings and belief in a universal Inner Light are certainly mystical in orientation, but unlike the Taoists whom Mike L quotes, they were very much engaged in practical social work. Their efforts on behalf of African slaves and abolition, the reform of prisons and insane assylums, and the poor, and their active peace witness as medics in the military, are unparalleled. Like the Taoists, they even produced some good poetry.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Mar 26, 2014 - 01:15pm PT
Cintune, I don't get it.

Why would you of all people here promote a fundamentalist lie like that?

Even if irony, like this one...
"The problem with internet quotes is that you can't always depend on their accuracy." ~Abraham Lincoln


This place is more shitty, ignorant and vacuous than ever.

No better than the climate thread, :(


It's pathetic when Christians have to fashion lies to support their claims.

Mar 26, 2014 - 01:33pm PT
Dawkins never said that, BTW. No evolutionary biologist would, of course.

Just another poor li'l orphaned innernut meme.

That herds Cintune into a certain holding pen with regards to credibility - one that's pretty crowded at this point.

I'm really not sure why people do that to themselves publicly, but then, what people (other than sociopaths) get out of trolling escapes me, too.

Or maybe all regular trolls are rocking their sociopathic tendencies.

Hell, I don't know.

Mar 26, 2014 - 01:40pm PT
All conditioned living entities in ignorance fashion lies at times to support their claims.

And YOU fruitcake are not exempt either .....

The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Mar 26, 2014 - 01:51pm PT
Aw c'mon. It was a joke. Everyone here should know I'm only in it for the laughs at this point. All the pertinent arguments have been made and re-made over and over, proving only that consensus is impossible. So, nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile.


Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 26, 2014 - 01:55pm PT
Cintune said: . . . proving only that consensus is impossible

Not true. We might never agree on certain things, especially when one camp is talking about objective, and the other is focused on subjective, with side orders of religion, susperstition, science, poetry, Zen, lybacking, etc thrown in.

But if we were to start defining sentience, avoiding interpretations and sticking to the technical aspects we can all verify, consensus is totally possible.


John 6:44
Mar 26, 2014 - 02:06pm PT
ignorant and vacuous than ever

Credit: go-B

same old tune

Credit: go-B

Mar 26, 2014 - 02:10pm PT
"But if we were to start defining sentience, avoiding interpretations and sticking to the technical aspects we can all verify, consensus is totally possible."

Yes ...

Every single living entity has sentience.

Declaring "impossible" is only for those in poor fund of knowledge .....

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 26, 2014 - 02:16pm PT

Aren't all morals, ethics, and laws culturally-bound and socially-defined?

Of course I'm always speaking from experience, being unread and all. I've been lucky enough(blessed), to live along side many different cultures and different social levels. From doing time in jail, to having a girlfriend who had parents with a Learjet and would fly 400 miles jus to get a chicken dinner. Point being, I learned to belong, one must get along. Regarding ur question; Yes. Morals to me are social constraining rules. Most likely the reason why people rebel against other social groups? They are the reason I lived in a van down by a rock and went climbing for 12 yrs. I wanted my own universe. My set of rules. In Camp4 anything goes!
Know what I mean? At 43 I had a daughter and had to move back into a common society and abide. Raising and teaching another human-being causes one to lay down rules. Therefor to achieve a desired goal for someone else's life, we must show a strickness to rules and laws. Morals to me are a combination of rules, and the injection of emotional reasoning inorder to coherently get along with family, friends, and society. When my daughter breaks the rule of sharing, we talk about the reasons of why sharing is good. But most importantly, after her resolve, I look her in the eyes and grant her forgiveness. Without rules there is no justice. Discipline is a sign of love, but without forgiveness there is no expression of love.

So I ask you, what should be our goal?

John 6:44
Mar 26, 2014 - 02:37pm PT
defining sentience

Everyone uses their (God given) senses every day!

But there is more, like a song is more than just notes put together!
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