Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Jan 15, 2014 - 12:25am PT
Yep, Ducky.

Progress is a bitch. Mystics used to burn people at the stake, now they blow them up.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Jan 15, 2014 - 12:27am PT
Here's my MRI results from this afternoon! :D



Perhaps this conceptualization of my meat mind MRI is beyond your simple pulse taking, oh Master Werner? ;)

DMT

ps. Some blokes, man, when they watch that video? They don't hardly see nothing.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Jan 15, 2014 - 12:29am PT
It's morning here in Japan and I was quite amazed and amused at all the reactions and assumptions to my statements that 1) the U.S. Army had a psy ops program I was aware of and 2) that I had students who could bend spoons. So let me clarify.

The Psy Ops program experimented with many things including remote viewing, energy projection and so on. Elizabeth Kubler Ross's institute was also involved at one point. It was rumored to be the result of one of our satellites going out without any discernable cause and the Russians telling us they did it with psy phenomenon. This could well have been their best false information plant of the Cold War. On the other hand it's no secret that the Russians have long been interested in what we call psychic phenomenon. Therefore our government started taking it seriously as well. Whatever happened to the program I don't know as the Intel unit involved on Okinawa transferred out of her to another location. Meanwhile, if you want to see a British spoof of the whole effort, George Clooney starred in a movie about it called, "The Men Who Stare at Goats".

As for the spoon bending, it could have had a purely physical explanation. It certainly wasn't purely mental. The people who did it claimed it was a combination of both. The video Marlow posted showed only a tiny version of what I saw which was ice tea spoons with long handles with the stems bent into two complete circles as the people rubbed them and concentrated. I saw what I saw. The last time this was discussed on this thread I was at least accused of being hypnotized or the victim of magicians or of dropping acid as well as being schitzo. You guys however, just jumped in with your assumptions without asking any further questions.

The reason I mentioned it at all was to back up Tom's assertions that the U.S. government was/is interested in all sorts of mental and energetic manipulations of human beings. I personally have never been involved in phenomenon like this so don't ask me to bend spoons because I'm not interested. The teachings I follow say these are cheap parlor tricks that contribute nothing to spiritual growth. My teachings also say that making money off of such tricks is very detrimental to one's personal karma.I am however very interested in learning more about electromagnetic energy fields and how they affect human beings.

Along these lines, I'd really recommend you all read the Wiki article on trans cranial stimulation. My experience with the MRI machine is not unique it turns out. As to why I felt something and DMT didn't, it possibly was the result of a different brain physiology (remember I said one of the interesting questions would be the parameters of this ability for our species and trying to understand what is the evolutionary significance?). It could also be the result of training since I had already done many years of meditation and had experience with acupuncture when this happened. Why not read the article yourselves and come up with your own hypotheses?



Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Jan 15, 2014 - 12:32am PT
As for the spoon bending, it could have had a purely physical explanation.

It could have been angel wings. Surmise and fancy aside, that is....

I do have my own hypothesis... its all in your head. Many others share this hypothesis. Perhaps we are delusional and merely a part of your imagination.

DMT
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Jan 15, 2014 - 12:46am PT
I have been called crazy before on numerous occasions, often just for hanging out with rock climbers, so that doesn't really bother me. I find it kind of sad though that so many are so ready to jump to conclusions based on a few words. It seems paranoia reigns. Some people believe in conspiracy theories and others that everyone who isn't a hard nosed scientist is out to convert the poor scientists either to fundamentalist Abrahamic religion or to extremist woo woo. Whatever happened to the open mind?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Jan 15, 2014 - 12:50am PT
For me? Straight up - its the way its presented. You give credence to spoon benders for chrisakes! Then you want to be taken seriously and you question my open mindedness? MikeL requests a reply but reminds me that he'll accept no imagery or conceptualization as part of that reply. And this guy wants to be taken seriously? His (not)ideas fairly considered?

I know its easy for you to dismiss criticisms as unjust or rigid, but dayum girl, have a look in the mirror once in a while?

DMT
moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Jan 15, 2014 - 12:53am PT
As for the spoon bending, it could have had a purely physical explanation. It certainly wasn't purely mental.

See JGill? Jan wasn't joking. She just has soften her previous statement a bit.

Credibility lost.

Andrzej
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Jan 15, 2014 - 12:54am PT
It's interesting that the words "spoon bender" can make so many apoplectic. Perhaps there is something about this that I'm missing out on. Because I've been gone for many years, I do have big gaps in my knowledge of American culture.

edit:
So moosedrool, if you saw someone bend a spoon after rubbing it and concentrating on it for ten minutes, what would be your reaction? Would you assume you were halucinating or someone had slipped you a drug? Would you assume you were the victim of a magician? How exactly would you explain it? Or would you just try to forget it because it didn't match your idea of reality and what's possible?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Jan 15, 2014 - 12:56am PT
Lol. Side step it all you want. :) Cheers and good night Jan.

DMT
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Jan 15, 2014 - 01:05am PT
Sleep tight- and pain free!
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jan 15, 2014 - 01:18am PT
I attended Occidental College under a violin scholarship. One of my neighbors was working on his PhD at Cal Tech by implanting electrodes in the brains of living lab rats and stimulating brain cells to observe results. I spent quite a bit of time in his lab and learned the techniques.

The Cal Tech department lead was a Dr. Olds, who was trying to do similar work with a helmet using small wire coils against a person's skull to read electrical potential in a fairly small region of the brain.

At Occidental we were experimenting with early Moog and Arp music synthesizers. For my senior paper I wrote a system design for controlling a music synthesizer with this helmet. I imagined a musician sitting on stage with arms folded and mentally manipulated music coming from speakers.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jan 15, 2014 - 01:30am PT
There is a tribe in Africa where the birth date of a child is counted not from when they were born, nor from when they are conceived but from the day that the child was a thought in its mother’s mind. And when a woman decides that she will have a child, she goes off and sits under a tree, by herself, and she listens until she can hear the song of the child that wants to come. And after she’s heard the song of this child, she comes back to the man who will be the child’s father, and teaches it to him. And then, when they make love to physically conceive the child, some of that time they sing the song of the child, as a way to invite it.

And then, when the mother is pregnant, the mother teaches that child’s song to the midwives and the old women of the village, so that when the child is born, the old women and the people around her sing the child’s song to welcome it. And then, as the child grows up, the other villagers are taught the child’s song. If the child falls, or hurts its knee, someone picks it up and sings its song to it. Or perhaps the child does something wonderful, or goes through the rites of puberty, then as a way of honoring this person, the people of the village sing his or her song.

In the African tribe there is one other occasion upon which the villagers sing to the child. If at any time during his or her life, the person commits a crime or aberrant social act, the individual is called to the center of the village and the people in the community form a circle around them. Then they sing their song to them.

The tribe recognizes that the correction for antisocial behavior is not punishment; it is love and the remembrance of identity. When you recognize your own song, you have no desire or need to do anything that would hurt another.

And it goes this way through their life. In marriage, the songs are sung, together. And finally, when this child is lying in bed, ready to die, all the villagers know his or her song, and they sing—for the last time—the song to that person.

The Himba (singular: Omuhimba, plural: Ovahimba) are indigenous peoples of about 20,000 to 50,000 people[1] living in northern Namibia, in the Kunene region (formerly Kaokoland) and on the other side of the Kunene River in Angola. There are also few groups left of the Ovatwa, which also belong to the Himba people, but are hunters and gatherers. Himba are mostly a semi-nomadic, pastoral people, closely related to the Herero, and speak Otjihimba, that is similar to the Herero language.
moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Jan 15, 2014 - 01:36am PT
Really Jan?

You want me to tell you what to think?

OK

Minds can't bend spoons. Period!

Telekinesis was investigated long time ago. Not real.


You are talking about keeping an open mind?

Do you believe a rock can change magically into water?

Do you believe in spontaneous combustion of a human being?

Do you believe you can talk to dead people?


What is your threshold?



I was genuinely interested in the sensations people report when the mind is challenged with extraordinary tasks, like deep meditation, sleep depravation, sensory deprivation, etc. I was hoping to get honest answers.

I feel cheated.

Andrzej
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jan 15, 2014 - 01:38am PT

Because I've been gone for many years, I do have big gaps in my knowledge of American culture.

Jeez Jan, im only american and i can't understand why you got such a spoon'in over some dumb spoon. Maybe ur jus gettin the scientific probe?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jan 15, 2014 - 01:45am PT
FYI:

Georges Lakhovsky (1869 in Russian Empire – 1942 in New York City, USA) was a Russian engineer, scientist, author and inventor. His controversial medical treatment invention, the Multiple Wave Oscillator, is described as having been used by him in the treatment of cancer.[1]

Georges Lakhovsky published books and articles that claimed and attempted to demonstrate that living cells emit and receive electromagnetic radiations at their own high frequencies.

In 1925 Lakhovsky wrote a Radio News Magazine article entitled "Curing Cancer With Ultra Radio Frequencies." In 1929 while in France he was the author of a book "The Secret of Life: Electricity, Radiation and Your Body" (French) in which he claimed and attempted to demonstrate that good or bad health was determined by the relative health of these cellular oscillations, and bacteria, cancers, and other pathogens corrupted them, causing interference with these oscillations. It was translated to English in 1935. Numerous depictions pictured in the book supposedly have Lakhovsky in a Paris, France hospital conducting clinical research treating cancer patients with before, during, and after photographs.[2]

With assistance from D'Arsonval, Georges Lakhovsky invented the Multiple Wave Oscillator,[3] that Lakhovsky claimed would revitalize and strengthen the health of cells. The device consisted of two broadband antennae (a sending and a receiving pair) composed of concentric sets of curved open-ended copper pieces suspended / held in place by silk threads, two metal stands to hold the two antennae, Oudin coil(s), and electromagnetic spark / pulse generator. In June 1934 he was awarded U.S. patent 1962565[4] for the device. In 1932, Georges Lakhovsky used aluminium and in some models multi metal, air filled tubes bent into nested circular dipoles for the antennae in his Multi-Wave Oscillator.[2]

At age 72, in 1942, Lakhovsky was struck by a limousine. Three days later Lakhovsky died in the hospital of his injuries.

I used to know a licensed medical doctor in Berkley who seemed to be getting good results with one of these. For example he cured several people who had rashes from swimming in a red tide. I was too young and healthy to need any cures, but did like the feeling of sitting in it.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jan 15, 2014 - 01:53am PT
Minds can't bend spoons. Period!
Telekinesis was investigated long time ago. Not real.
You are talking about keeping an open mind?
Do you believe a rock can change magically into water?
Do you believe in spontaneous combustion of a human being?
Do you believe you can talk to dead people?
What is your threshold?

unless you know something that i don't these are just argumentative and uninteresting and not relevant to the topic at hand

we keep trying to tell you that parlor tricks are not the topic of conversation

the topic is whether there are mental fields of awareness that are related to or effected by electromagnetism
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Jan 15, 2014 - 02:34am PT
I'm not sure moosedrool where the intensity of your negative emotions is coming from, but for sure you're not quoting me correctly. I never used the word telekinesis. I never said the spoon bending was the result of mind only action. I don't even know if mind was involved at all, maybe that was just an illusion, part of the props. What I did see were ice tea spoons that got twisted into circles after being rubbed with great concentration for about ten minutes. And the people who learned to do that did so in a government sponsored psy ops workshop.

Meanwhile I'm wondering if you always call people you don't understand or agree with liars? Really?

And have you bothered yet to read the article recommended by MH2 on transcranial stimulation?
Byran

climber
San Jose, CA
Jan 15, 2014 - 03:11am PT
I think it's quite obvious that "mental fields of awareness" can be affected by electromagnetism.

Credit: Byran


The brain also creates it's own electromagnetism which is what is measured by an EEG.

RE: Spoons
I've seen a lot of videos of people bending spoons with their minds (Uri Geller and the like), seems to require a lot of manhandling and rubbing to make it work though. No one ever just sets the thing on the table and voila! it bends before your eyes. I wonder why that is? Spoils all the joy of bending it with your mind if you've got to spend 10 minutes massaging the frickin thing with your hands, I say.
krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
Jan 15, 2014 - 03:44am PT
Hey TomCochrane try googling: transcranial magnetic simulation. Here's one link:

Here's another:
http://video.pbs.org/video/1757258624/
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jan 15, 2014 - 07:23am PT
Skeptical scrutiny is the means, in both science and religion, by which deep insights can be winnowed from deep nonsense. - Carl Sagan
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