Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jan 6, 2014 - 05:26pm PT
I think Largo adopted a similar methodology when he shattered his leg. I certainly don't blame him; applaud the decision actually.


We have to have attachments to live in the world. During intense meditative states we can learn to see these attachments are not "real" in any absolute way, and are just evolutionary constructs to insure survival. We are made that way. However this is not our ultimate reality, but our programing. Essential programing for this world, but only our provisional truth. We are in fact bigger than our attachments - and at the same time, we are nothing at all. These are not concepts but direct existential experiences anyone can have if they stay the course and do the work. When I was laying on the ground with bones shooting out of my shin, I just lay back and detached from my body and was able to avoid panicking and probably some of the shock. People later told me how macho and manly I was but in fact I went in the opposite direction altogether, and gave up all attachment of control. I am especially good at doing this in a crisis but not so good with everyday matters. I need work there.

JL
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jan 6, 2014 - 06:15pm PT
This is interesting, for those with an interest.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=a-missing-genetic-link-in-human-evolution

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Jan 6, 2014 - 06:51pm PT
During intense meditative states we can learn to see these attachments are not "real" in any absolute way, and are just evolutionary constructs to insure survival. We are made that way. However this is not our ultimate reality, but our programing.

Now you're back in religious territory. How can you claim you're not a preacher?

DMT
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Jan 6, 2014 - 06:57pm PT
When I was laying on the ground with bones shooting out of my shin, I just lay back and detached from my body and was able to avoid panicking and probably some of the shock. People later told me how macho and manly I was but in fact I went in the opposite direction altogether, and gave up all attachment of control. I am especially good at doing this in a crisis

Contrast that with Ammon's reaction to NOT lay back, to take an active role and thus insure his own survival. (and to document it... FAK!)

How do you tell the difference between detachment and shock? Serious question.

DMT
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Jan 6, 2014 - 07:21pm PT
Now . . . find or pin-down anything such that you can say exactly and fully what the thing is at all times in all instances (MikeL)

This is no argument against what we normally think of as progress. To me, this seems like a path to madness. Such an attitude would preclude any real contribution to society, no matter how minor, and such intense focus would collapse the world one normally perceives. You may say this would be a good thing, but I would disagree. We all reach a dead end soon enough. Better to quietly meditate and empty the mind as you've described before.
WBraun

climber
Jan 6, 2014 - 07:23pm PT
Lord Buddha was a bonafide incarnation of God himself who preached atheism to cheat the meat eaters to stop animal slaughter.

Ahimsa

Only God himself can cheat perfectly.

Now a dazes they slaughter even more then ever to create such an immense amount of karmic reactions that material nature is showing in our present day extremes.

Extremes in weather, violence to all living entities, ever present wars, famines, hypocrisy, quarrel, cancers etc etc etc

The planet is sick and it's inhabitants are sick and stupid people think they are advanced.

Stupid stupid people ....
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jan 6, 2014 - 08:29pm PT

Now you're back in religious territory. How can you claim you're not a preacher?


Religious? Where did I mention doctrine-driven beliefs and and deity worshiping? What, specifically, is it you feel I am "preaching," as opposed to simply imparting data and information you can verify for your own self?

My sense of this is what many people do when they don't understand something - they cry wuwu or "magic" and what that really means is anything not adhering to a strict, fundamantalist materialism is not considered "real," real being material. It's a closed loop. That's why I quite delving into interpreting esoteric insights on this thread. Once a person is locked into that loop they cannot learn anything that does not conform to materialists doctrine, everything else being, as John S, stated, "a waste of time."

JL
WBraun

climber
Jan 6, 2014 - 09:04pm PT
The minute they don't understand something they cry wu wu.

Terrible scientists.

All failure.

No wonder they only could invent a stupid Atom Bomb .....
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jan 6, 2014 - 09:36pm PT
Now . . . find or pin-down anything such that you can say exactly and fully what the thing is at all times in all instances (MikeL)

"This is no argument against what we normally think of as progress. To me, this seems like a path to madness. Such an attitude would preclude any real contribution to society, no matter how minor, and such intense focus would collapse the world one normally perceives. You may say this would be a good thing, but I would disagree. We all reach a dead end soon enough. Better to quietly meditate and empty the mind as you've described before.(J Gill) "

Mike is only showing one side of the coin; the absolute side . there is also the functional side the side where you sit down on the chair. Your right, if you only percieved the absolute you would be mad, it is a narrow view. the broad view is to percieve both sides, absolute and functional.

The key is not about understanding it but to actually experience it. ZM Seung Sahn used to say "only just do it" which means to go beyond understanding and experience it.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Jan 6, 2014 - 10:37pm PT
Religious? Where did I mention doctrine-driven beliefs and and deity worshiping? What, specifically, is it you feel I am "preaching," as opposed to simply imparting data and information you can verify for your own self?

I quoted you. "Ultimate reality." That is doctrine supporting your belief. You are in possession of some ultimate truth that eludes the rest of us, but oh we can have it too if we just follow your path. I'm left to consider... do I accept the body of science called quantum mechanics or do I accept Largo's 'matter winking in and out of existence?' Life is but a dream?

On the one hand, science 'shows it's work.' I can follow it. You say, 'gaze inward and find it yourself.' Imparting data? By twisting quantum mechanics to suit your purpose despite being told by those learned in the science it doesn't mean what you say? What do you offer to counter that? What data?

DMT
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jan 6, 2014 - 11:05pm PT
Not doctrine and not belief. At all.

"Show your work" is a formula relevant to the material world. To the experiential world, you must DO the work, and the data is the experience itself.

Said data is not a thing to show others, meaning you can't get it for free. You have to do the work yourself. You can do the work any number of ways - none have an exclusive on truth. But one thing is for sure: To the discursive mind, such an assertion can only be grasped as a belief, owing to an experience that would show you otherwise. Minus the experience, you just circle around in your own patterns.

Per matter glitching in and out - try this quote on for size:

Matter is comprised chiefly of Ö nothing, with a hundred million atoms across the span of my fingertip, 99.9 percent has no mass and the part that does is the nucleus. The nuclei within everything Ė my finger, the table I am writing on, the chair in which I sit, are surrounded by clouds of electrons which have a negative charge and essentially no mass. These negative charges repel each other, just as two north poles of a magnet. If we were somehow able to turn off the electrical charges everything, including you and me, would crumble into tiny nuclei dust particles.

Although all this solid stuff feels solid, itís not. Nothing in the table, country, or world is solid. The banks are not solid. The dollar bill that paid for this computer is not solid. Even the foundation of my house or the world isnít solid!

Everything in your life and mine, all the debt, toys, and zombies walking by is one big giant illusion of electromagnetic forces, united by energy and repulsive polarities.

Our minds tell us differently.

JL
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Jan 6, 2014 - 11:11pm PT
Tell your leg the floor is mostly nothing. Its simply not a useful metaphor when confronted with the hard physics of reality.

I'm sorry man. I am not going to suspend disbelief for a metaphor.

DMNT
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Jan 6, 2014 - 11:16pm PT
Our minds tell us differently


We'd be in a real fix if they didn't! I'm rooting for the illusion.


;>)
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jan 6, 2014 - 11:32pm PT
Tell your leg the floor is mostly nothing. Its simply not a useful metaphor when confronted with the hard physics of reality.

I'm sorry man. I am not going to suspend disbelief for a metaphor
---


You're missing it by trying to find where it is wrong. It is wrong on the level of sense data and what our discursive minds tell us per measurable things. This appears as an ultimate fact, as solid as a floor. Of course it is not and knowing as much has nothing to do with a metaphor.

Seeing beyond sense data does not help us better negotiate hitting a floor, if that's what you are thinking, and if your interest lay no further, than John S's comment is exactly right for you: the "work" is a waste of time.

If however your interests lay beyond what is merely "true" for the sake of making our way in the material world, push on through. Just don't expect much company, and get used to people insisting that what you are reporting is a belief, a magic act, an illusion, something "religious."

Or you can just sit down and start watching your breath and fond out for yourself. In this realm, "prove it" is your job, and you prove it to yourself. You want something for nothing when you expect others to basically work out for you and for you to reap the benefits. You get out what YOU put in. It's not an intellectual game.

The difference between shock and detachment is shock is an altered state, and conscious detachment is gaining enough separation from what's going on that you can see things clearly, as opposed to when they are right in your face.

The reason I didn't get manly and proactive is that unlike Aamon, I didn't rupture any veins or arteries and was not bleeding at all. The safest thing for me to do was to relax and wait for the ride to the ER.

Lastly, there is no "meatphysical world," and what I have been talking about, for the 100th time, has nothing to do with beliefs. These are all projections, simply you guessing what is going on as opposed to finding out for yourself.

JL


jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Jan 6, 2014 - 11:35pm PT
Just don't expect much company (JL)


Or mercy from us scientificologists!
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Jan 6, 2014 - 11:36pm PT
I told you years ago I didn't believe in that metaphysical stuff. I still don't. It seems to me the only people who find it are them that go looking for it. Happy trails bro. I think things are ok here in the material world.

Just know that whole quantum thing you try to make is no different than Chongo's.

DMT
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Jan 6, 2014 - 11:39pm PT
Mathematicians Without Mercy!!!

Reminds me of the time I quipped to a guy, 'statistics can be made to say anything.'

Turns out the dude sported a Masters in math, and ripped me a new one for trying to twist something of which I had no inherent inkling.

I like to think I learned a lesson that day. Science isn't founded on opinion or pithy sentences. You can't make assertions about reality and the material world without backing them up. Simple as that.

Science shows its work. If you possess the ultimate reality then prove it.

DMT
MH2

climber
Jan 7, 2014 - 12:00am PT
get used to people insisting that what you are reporting is a belief, a magic act, an illusion, something "religious."


I trust you are not disparaging belief, magic, illusion, or religion.

Anything that you perceive is in some sense real. However, it may only be real for you. Remember that nothing is permanent and we are not telepaths. Why is it so important for anyone else to perceive what you do? Not exactly, perhaps, but by following the path of meditation? We know that there is no goal, and are told that there is no thing. The strange part is how much prose goes into the hopper to convince us we are missing SOME thing.
jstan

climber
Jan 7, 2014 - 12:02am PT
Even before I was born measurement showed the rest mass of the electron to be 1/1837 that of the proton and neutron. To my knowledge there is no data implying the electron's mass is zero. Finding a theory that predicts on first principles what the masses of the various particles is, is referred to by particle physicists as the "hierarchy problem." Supersymmetry and string theory both attempt to approach this problem without employing "fine tuning" of natural constants and with out resorting to anthropic solutions. (In the anthropic solution everything is as we measure it, because if it were different we would not be here.)

I have posted links to another model employing a single additional spatial dimension that is terminated on branes. I will recommend it again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKejAW0IaDA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqKdtGXuWrw

This is not my field but I will try to summarize what I understand. It is fascinating and it rivals Darwin's work as regards revolutionizing our understanding of the world around us.

Early in the 20th century it was understood that fields exist in space that allow "virtual particles" to appear. But Heisenberg's uncertainty principle requires that this violation of energy conservation can only exist for a time so short we cannot measure the fact energy conservation has been violated. Present concepts as to how the universe came into being intuit that that creation was just such a virtual event.

But then we have to ask how is it that we are still here. Why did it all not disappear in 10(-35) seconds? The answer is found in the non uniformity we see in the clusters of galaxies around us. Heisenberg can be satisfied and our telescopic observations of space itself explained if space itself expanded at supraluminal velocities immediately after the virtual event. How so?

When space was inflated masses were being moved far apart and in the process huge amounts of energy were stored. These have to be treated as a negative energy when looking at the universe as a whole. This negative energy just balances out the energy represented by the mass itself. Voila. The expansion drove total energy to zero thereby satisfying Heisenberg. This is the flat space finding. According to this, space not near a large mass concentration looks just like the three orthonormal axes conceived of by Euclid.

Something else can be understood here, as an aside. In the late thirties German researchers had already established many principles of nuclear physics and Hitler had given Heisenberg the task of producing a bomb. The man was known to be immensely smart. Those of us who did not live through that time, have no way to know how undeservedly fat and happy they are.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jan 7, 2014 - 01:01am PT
We know that there is no goal, and are told that there is no thing. The strange part is how much prose goes into the hopper to convince us we are missing SOME thing.
--

No one's trying to convince you of anything save to seek to be more conscious by whatever way you choose. This is not an intellectual exercise. You have to actively pursue some kind of consciousness work because it is an entirely counterintuitive process. This "thing," this concept, must be kept alive for people to believe in themselves enough to actually set aside their attachment to mental constructs and take a flier. The liklihood is 10,000 to 1 anyone will ever break the mold and cast off, fearing insanity, senility, wet brain, a decline in quantitative prowess, etc.

Fear and discursive thinking are perhaps stronger forces than gravity.

Hey, where's the graviton?

Per mass: We use the word mass to talk about how much matter there is in something. That is, matter is anything you can "touch" physically. What is the mass of the experience of blue? NOT the neuro stirring you associate with this experience. Two different things. Re: Conflation.

JL
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