Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Nov 28, 2013 - 06:14am PT
Largo,

If you want to start pilfering from physics, perhaps you should reconsider your long held contempt for measuring things.

For instance, you are dancing around the Plank Constant.

I highly recommend that you go buy a little bitty book by Richard Feynman:

QED

That book explains some very odd and bizarre things that occur in the universe. Nature is a fascinating topic, and I am heartened by your sudden conversion to physics.

No sh#t, though. The book is a must read for anyone who considers themselves even slightly well read.
WBraun

climber
Nov 28, 2013 - 08:08am PT
Nature is a fascinating topic

Beyond nature is the "root" and source of all Nature and far more fascinating topic that finalizes all mysteries even though one can never come to an end to any one of them ......

The paradox of the Ultimate
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Nov 28, 2013 - 08:09am PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#332443


The last minute conversion...

Mark 15:27 They crucified two robbers with Him, one on His right and one on His left. 28 [And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And He was numbered with transgressors.”] 29 Those passing by were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads, and saying, “Ha! You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, 30 save Yourself, and come down from the cross!” 31 In the same way the chief priests also, along with the scribes, were mocking Him among themselves and saying, “He saved others; He cannot save Himself. 32 Let this Christ, the King of Israel, now come down from the cross, so that we may see and believe!” Those who were crucified with Him were also insulting Him.


Luke 23:32 Two others also, who were criminals, were being led away to be put to death with Him.

33 When they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left. 34 But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.” And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves. 35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.” 36 The soldiers also mocked Him, coming up to Him, offering Him sour wine, 37 and saying, “If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself!” 38 Now there was also an inscription above Him, “THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.”

39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!” 40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”


2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief...

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

...before it's to late, whatcha waiting for! :)
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 28, 2013 - 09:30am PT
If you want to start pilfering from physics, perhaps you should reconsider your long held contempt for measuring things.


Let me unequivocally state that not now, nor in the past, nor in the future have I held a contempt for measuring "things."

My contention is that measuring is the one and only mode of dealing with things. But reality is bigger than it's component things, and measuring is of little value in this larger arena.

Those who feel otherwise - that there is nothing larger than science - are the champions of scientism, whereby measuring is given a kind of favored nation position per knowing. The problem here, and it is not insignificant, is that we cannot approach anything but things, which by the beliefs of scientism, constitute the only true reality. It's a closed loop. And it all makes discursive sense within the loop. But the loop has a boundary - as must all measurable things - and the belief that anything outside the loop is wuwu or speculation or God is in fact simply more scientism.

So no, BASE. I have nothing against measuring or quantifying. As mentioned, I wouldn't have gotten too far with all those tech manuals without an appreciation for hard info. It's just that I know the story does not end there.

Per Feynman - the folks I used to ride with over at Caltech have some exciting stories about the man. He apparently was a champion of titty bars and strip clubs, among other things.

Happy Thanksgiving, ya'all.

JL

PHOTO BY DAVE KOEPSEL
PHOTO BY DAVE KOEPSEL
Credit: Largo
MH2

climber
Nov 28, 2013 - 10:07am PT
the belief that anything outside the loop is wuwu or speculation or God is in fact simply more scientism.


Religion is scientism?

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 28, 2013 - 02:29pm PT
the belief that anything outside the loop is wuwu or speculation or God is in fact simply more scientism.

Religion is scientism?

1. The BELIEF that anything outside the discursive bubble is at best, a poor substitute for the discursive (per rendering anything true), is the core distortion of scientism. Religion lies outside the discursive loop.

2. Religion was not arrived at through experimentation rendering definable/numerical representation and predictable results in the material world.

3. Therefore A) Religion is NOT scientism, and B) your literalism has the stubborn flair of garden variety OCD, LOL.

Gobble Gobble . . .

JL
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Nov 28, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
Science concerns itself with reality; it leaves delusions to religion.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 28, 2013 - 03:51pm PT
Science concerns itself with reality.



Science concerns itself with physical things. The belief that all of reality is composed of measurable, physical things is called scientism.

JL

I gots me a funky lookin' head. So what?
I gots me a funky lookin' head. So what?
Credit: Largo
WBraun

climber
Nov 28, 2013 - 04:27pm PT
The ridiculous mutt returns and says:

Science concerns itself with reality; it leaves delusions to religion.


Go back to the you hate Christianity thread where you belong because you are the one who's in complete delusion of reality.
MH2

climber
Nov 28, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
Religion is NOT scientism


Thank you for the correction. Your previous statement could be taken otherwise. You have said before that you sometimes, "dash these things off." Fair enough; the human is fallible. But confused, speculative, wrong, and overly general pronouncements take authority away from what you claim for meditation.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Nov 28, 2013 - 09:01pm PT
Organized Religion is obvious bullsh#t. Follow the money.

Anyone that says otherwise is deluded, simple minded, or in on the con.

And for those of you that don't understand the definition of reality, get a dictionary.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Nov 29, 2013 - 04:10am PT
Seriously, go buy the book QED by Feynman. Another good one, that applies directly to this conversation is Carl Sagan's The Demon Haunted World. It is great fun.

Scientism. I don't believe that it exists. There is only nature.

Perhaps you should use a different weasel word: Pantheism or some such. Science only concerns itself with nature. Religion is concerned with the supernatural, things that can never be proven or tested.

I expect Werner to snip that previous sentence and make a grand proclamation.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Nov 29, 2013 - 04:57am PT
I expect werner to produce more turds of wisdom.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Nov 29, 2013 - 06:14am PT
Now now....Werner is being sincere. We can respect each other here.

edit: Come on, John. We have all read your screeds attacking science. I don't understand why. Science concerns itself with nature and how it works.

The supernatural is beyond the reach of science by definition. I don't think that it is anything more than bickering when we step off into the supernatural realm, which is where you like to hang, deftly keeping one toe in the science camp all of this time.

This argument is not that complicated. Step back and consider it without judgement or prejudice, and you will see how simple it is.
WBraun

climber
Nov 29, 2013 - 07:40am PT
the supernatural, things that can never be proven or tested.


100% wrong.

The supernatural has been proven since day one.

We are none other than the products of the supernatural (part parcel) but being bound and covered under the limitations of our material body and senses we falsely believe we are completely material.

But, the material body is only the covering of us and we are the driver of that material body.

Trying to reduce everything to the material plane is the works of poor fund of knowledge and suicidal fools.

And ......this is very predominate and true also today ....

Some fanatical theologians disregard the scientific method altogether and insist on the veracity of their antiquated, sectarian dogmas.

(this is for the stupid mutt-case (Malemute). You still remain as one premium nutcase)
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2013 - 07:47am PT
Victor Stenger has written many books debunking the angle that Largo is now advocating.
But I'm sure if Largo did read these books, or Richard Feynman, he would claim that they don't apply to the nothingness he is trying to tell us exists, or doesn't exist. It's the immeasurable one that only can found in the non-discursive mind.

I read several of his books

This one deals with the quantum angle
Quantum Gods: Creation, Chaos, and the Search for Cosmic Consciousness
by Victor J. Stenger (Apr 21, 2009)


This one is the best
God: The Failed Hypothesis. How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist
by Victor J. Stenger and Christopher Hitchens (Apr 30, 2008)


see them all
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_0_9?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=victor%20stenger&sprefix=victor+st%2Caps%2C330
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 29, 2013 - 09:28am PT
But confused, speculative, wrong, and overly general pronouncements take authority away from what you claim for meditation.


We've made it perfectly clear that the experiential realm is in fact experiential. Any spiritual practice is involved with this realm and any knowledge comes from the direct experience of getting jiggy with that realm. One of the first things we come to understand is that is other ways to skin the cat than through the discursive, and that this method is just as natural as standard quantifying - thought he subject matter is often entirely different. So no, BASE, nothing in the experience is remotely "super natural" since it all naturally occures when you get quiet, though not through discursive or mystical or magical channels. What you've done attempting to explain away scientism is to simply replace material with Nature. But you've short shrifted Nature by insisting it contains only the measurable. That is your scientism right there. What you're doing is accusing me of ripping on science by suggesting there are limits on what it can quantify, having no direct experience with that which is not quantifiable. Which you and others insist is all just made up or imagined or juju or "supernatural." I've quite trying to suggest what this is, but the conversation is getting circular because there is no possible movement till the materialist camp makes an effort towards the unknown, which isn't going to happen. So it my be finally the case that this thread is actually played out by those refusing to play anything but the home game.

Gobble Gobble.

JL
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Nov 29, 2013 - 12:01pm PT
I don't want to discount what Largo is doing. I'm interested in it.

Skepticism is necessary, though. Anyone worth a pinch of coon sh#t needs to regularly take a pause, step back, and question their own ideas.

Those who don't are the ones who buy the Brooklyn Bridge, so to speak. Skepticism is key to understanding, or to knowing.

As for the experiential realm, I've always had a terminal case of seeking out new experiences. I am an elder at the First United Church of Out There.

So I get it. I'm just curious how some people can be so absolutely certain of things such as religion, which have a tough time facing serious scrutiny.

As for nature....I study it for a living. Untestable ideas have always been a total mess to prove in any real way.

I have to ask this.

If it isn't material, what is it?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 29, 2013 - 12:27pm PT
If it isn't material, what is it?
--

I no longer try and furnish answers to that question, as I would when writing an anchor book, where said answers are the entire point. It only adds to confusion.

I can tell you how to find out for yourself, however. The first steps are:

Initially, where we're teaching this stuff we always avoid any labels or notions abotu what it all "means" and just stick with the technical aspects of focus. First, we might discover and verify the process by which we discursively come to know something. How we pay attention. How we isolate this or that out of the matrix (a car, a fossil, a girl, a dog), at the exclusion of other things, in order to focus on that and start evaluating. Once that process is clear to all, then we move on.

Discovering how the discursive works, and what HAS to happen for discursive reasoning to work at all, is a crucial first step. This is a non-religious approach that works best with some westerners like me, who are not naturally gifted in God-centered approaches. This way there in no room to be skeptical about any of it. No beliefs. Just learning the tools. Like tying a knot. And once you get the first thing done, you move on.

BASE wrote: I don't want to discount what Largo is doing. I'm interested in it.

Now we discover if BASE is good to his word per being "interested." Or if he merely wants to dust the surface with thoughts, like jawboning about a route.

JL

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Nov 29, 2013 - 12:32pm PT

玉樓春曉
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