Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 18261 - 18280 of total 22369 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 19, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
Oorah DMT, now take up a weapon and stand a post, would ya? Stop this nonsense! Let me speak what I believe, and you yours, for GOD'S sake I ask.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Dec 19, 2013 - 02:56pm PT
Peace be with you.

Cheers
DMT
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 19, 2013 - 02:59pm PT
I am increasingly amazed by the new Pope.

He has the opportunity to be a real game changer, if only he lives long enough to have a real impact. I'm fairly sure that he is regretted by the Cardinals that elected him.

Great NPR story on him by Terry Gross:

http://www.npr.org/2013/12/17/252016393/in-francis-first-year-a-radical-pope-seeks-to-save-his-church
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 19, 2013 - 03:04pm PT
See, my feathers do get ruffled...

Dr. F.,

Even as a Christian after God's heart now, if you put me back in Iraq, wait, let's put YOU back in Iraq, where ANYBODY is going to threaten your life, or those who protect your life, what are you going to do with that 9 millimeter on your hip or the M16 slung over your back? I hope I would hear that you would do whatever you need to do to stop that person. That is not murder, and doesn't break God's law.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Dec 19, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
DMT:
Jan, I asked you - do other animals have genetic karma, in YOUR theory?

Jan:

I think they are much more limited in their possibilities but even within the range of their genetic programming, they exhibit characteristics from time to time that one would associate with a higher level of intelligence and compassion that the species average.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question? It seems like I have answered it several different ways, but let me try to be more specific yet. I do believe that animals have karma and I was puzzled by Werner's answer on that too.

There are animals who exhibit worse behavior than the species average - they're greedy, selfish, mean and nasty beyond what they need to be to survive (bad karma). There are animals that behave better than what one would expect given their species average, demonstrating sacrifice and compassion for their own and other species, and not just blood relatives in whom they have a genetically programmed interest (good karma).

Both Hinduism and Buddhism teach that their leaders (Buddha and Krishna)appeared in numerous lifetimes as animals before appearing on this planet in human form. The Jataka tales talk about how the Buddha gained good karma as an animal. The many incarnations of Krishna are biologically correct in terms of the appearance of his various life forms on this planet - He appeared as a fish before a turtle before a mammal before his first life as a human. That's why those eastern religions have no problem with the biological theory of evolution.

Beyond that, it seems to me that if you believe in karma, whether spiritual or genetic or some combination of both, then it must be for all life forms. Otherwise, humans have to be the product of a special creation, Abrahamic style, or all are reduced to just living up to their own animal natures, including humans, and I think we all have much more potential than that.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Dec 19, 2013 - 03:47pm PT
Thanks Jan.

I'll think about it some before responding. I have some thoughts on the matter but want to let them simmer down for a while. Ditto for my stomach.

DMT
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 19, 2013 - 04:45pm PT
....making Christians proud!

Particularly Merkin Christians!

Hey Mr. Brilliant, over here,

What do you know about me and when I served over in Iraq? You can probably do a search and find out. Next, when did I take a stance on the Truth...sorry, the Truth = Jesus Christ...??? Obviously you don't know that either, nor did you take that into consideration.

Btw, I'm seeing accusations here and in emails that I said something regarding a "defective womb"? I have made NO such post. I have had Impostors in the past stealing my avatar and using my moniker by substituting letters and symbols, and have had Chris Mac take care of that for me. Am i hearing of another Mole at work?
FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Dec 19, 2013 - 04:51pm PT
Justifying your adolescent blood-lust with god and flag doesn't make you spiritual. It makes you a fascist. Your veiled threats seal the deal...
Truthdweller

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 19, 2013 - 07:45pm PT
Justifying your adolescent blood-lust with god and flag doesn't make you spiritual. It makes you a fascist. Your veiled threats seal the deal...


Man, it's gettin' late...wait, it's only 1944...more Spongebob then with the eight year old...bbl
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 19, 2013 - 08:39pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Dec 19, 2013 - 11:16pm PT
"The only church that illuminates is a burning church." -- Buenaventura Durruti.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Dec 19, 2013 - 11:33pm PT
I wouldn't be surprised that somebody would retaliate and make someone's day...just sayin.


At ease, soldier--and don't feel like the lone ranger. Many other have seen as much as you, if not more. Being back in civilization means being civil. You can save it for the chaplain.

Play nice.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Dec 19, 2013 - 11:34pm PT
OK Jan, I thought about it some...

It seems to me when you say 'genetic karma' is similar enough to the old 'breeding will out' notion. Whether its horses or women, as the old saying in the south goes. Now I know you didn't mean it that way, but think about it this way...

Wild dogs of the Serengeti is a good example. I've seen similar videos of wolf packs, baboons, etc. that help me make this point. The alpha pair's offspring enjoys lavish attention during childhood. And the offspring of the down trodden suffer from their lower caste position the pack; less advantage, less care, less food, less help. Other pack animals are less likely to 'help them.'

As a result when these lower caste animals grow up they too remain at the lower echelon of the pack. They're less capable parents themselves. They are less able to care for their offspring in turn. And on and on it goes.

Meanwhile the star quarterbacks and cheerleader offsping of the alpha couple enjoys their star status advantage. And then there are the middle class animals in the pack and as I think you said some of these animals exhibit the animal version of kindness even when it may be of no particular advantage to them.

It seems to me, this genetic 'karma' is a fundamental component of socialization, of pack animals, tribes and ultimately our human civilizations. To my way of thinking its all the same. Its not karma like some cosmic reckoning, its just how society works.

I don't call that karma but perhaps I misunderstand what you mean by it to begin with.

DMT
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Dec 20, 2013 - 12:31am PT
DMT-

I agree there is a corelation between socialization of group based animals and the exhibiting of "good behavior". There is also a corelation with intelligence. The more intelligent, the more social the animal it seems, and thus the greater capacity for better than average behavior and why being nice is actually a better survival strategy in many cases. Alpha baboons get the most females, but lower ranking males who are nice to females and help with their offspring get more chances to mate than just average baboons who hang out with their male buddies in a peer group. This would be both genetic karma and some kind of clever reasoning on the part of the helpful male baboons, I think.

One can argue as I've heard several Tibetan masters do, that being compassionate beyond what social mores require is a sign of higher intelligence as not only does it make the society better, it makes the individual happier. This kind of more abstract reasoning is probably only in the realm of humans, but we can't be sure.

As for other types of karma, there are multiple meanings. One explanation is that it is simply a good fall back position for the inexplicable. We miss our plane, and then it crashes and kills everyone aboard. We say that's random chance, good luck or some kind of karma.

Another kind of karma explains the unexplainable and gives a sense of fairness and rationality to life on this planet. Why some animals are born to dominant parents and others not, or why we are born American and not starving in a 3rd world country for instance, is either random chance or some kind of karma. Whether any of this is tied to an after life is another conception of karma. A new karmic question of recent times is whether there might be any connection between one's genetics and one's cosmic scale karma.

It all depends on how far you want to take the concept of karma. If everyone just accepted it at the evolutionary pack animal level, we'd already be way ahead.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 20, 2013 - 12:32am PT
Dingus, somebody like "new world order"? Gave a fantastic explanation of karma about 1k pages back. Couldn't find it though. Karma is not needed in Christianity. But there is similarities. For instance, the "genetic karma" Jan is referring. Sounds simaliar to what God warned of in the bible. And that's those who die in sin, that sin can be handed down through three generations. I often wonder what could be meant by this. What we know now through science. People who die of (achoholism or breast cancer), for instance. Their offspring have a high precentage of dying of the same. Sure Culture and society can help streamline these diseases. But it's a scientific fact that the alchoholism gene is being passed down. This was shown to us thousands of years before we could see genes. For me this is more scientific fact that the bible is true.
MH2

climber
Dec 20, 2013 - 12:44am PT
The Bible has changed a bit since it was first written down. God gave Man what we today would call a FAQ. A simple guide to living, if you will, since God wanted to keep things simple. Here is the original.

The rest was added by Man after God trailed off in the middle of #4.




BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 20, 2013 - 01:15am PT
^ I saw that in a dream once. But when I kept calling the dog monkey he peed on me

Warm Wishes To You ALL!
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Dec 20, 2013 - 01:49am PT
but lower ranking males who are nice to females and help with their offspring get more chances to mate than just average baboons

They sure do! ;)

DMT
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 20, 2013 - 02:40am PT
Is that all you got out of Jan's thoughtful post?

Did you know that 90% of back problems are caused from a weak stomach?

And weak stomachs are 90% of the time caused by the lack of chi?
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 20, 2013 - 06:46am PT
politics and science:

"In other words, although the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention will tell you that “secondhand smoke causes an estimated 3,400 lung cancer deaths among U.S. nonsmokers each year,” scientists have long understood that the actual number might be closer to zero."


http://reason.com/blog/2013/12/16/is-it-safe-yet-to-have-an-honest-convers

Messages 18261 - 18280 of total 22369 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Trip Report and Articles
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews