Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 17961 - 17980 of total 22351 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Dec 15, 2013 - 12:03pm PT
How about a 32 year old interlude?



Enduring music, is material.

DMT
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Dec 15, 2013 - 12:11pm PT
Again, the issue is not that feelings are products of chemistry and electricity. Rather it's the experience of those feelings that is so mysterious. Who is the experiencer and how is there a self realizing uniquely individual experiencer?

It's basically the old argument between Plato and Aristotle.

For everyone whose knowledge is certain I recommend "The Cave and the Light' by Arthur Herman.
The author has his own agenda, but it gives all this back and forth an interesting historical perspective.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Dec 15, 2013 - 12:18pm PT
The old gods must die.

That includes ideologies, perspectives, and any other guidance that you can conceptualize. Just see things as they are, nakedly, pristinely, wholly--to where "thingness" no longer obtains.
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2013 - 12:21pm PT
Welcome back blu blocker
It was fun to meet at the JT Fest

The Bible says whenever two or more men are gathered together in the same mind God is present. This is where we have the power of God. God cannot lie! And He Loves to be proven right. Test Him.
I dare you

There are probably 10 million tests happening per year, everyone of them failed to prove the power of God.
If there was a power of God that could be tested, this thread would not exist.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Dec 15, 2013 - 12:27pm PT
Rather it's the experience of those feelings that is so mysterious.

You seem to be suggesting that (i) there are feelings and (ii) there is an experience of feelings, so that there is an observation or a self-reflection of a subjectivity?

If so, I'd say it's the self-reflection or observation of feeling that encourages the emergence or maintenance of a sense of self.

However, when one can let go of the wont to reflect on feelings, then the sense of self (a subject) can drop off, the feelings (as an object) drop off, and all that is left is the feeling (verb) itself. There is just feeling, that's all.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Dec 15, 2013 - 12:41pm PT
How can there be a feeling if there isn't an entity to experience it? Feelings cannot be unless they're felt. To feel requires a feeler... there's the mystery: who is that "feeler?"
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Dec 15, 2013 - 12:42pm PT



Hope you all think you're getting somewhere...

LOL!!!...

paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Dec 15, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
The assumption is that we need to get somewhere. I don't think that's the point. The point is that the subject itself is just interesting as hell. It's actually enjoyable to contemplate this stuff.
MH2

climber
Dec 15, 2013 - 12:49pm PT
Hope you all think you're getting somewhere...


I'm in a hole and pulled it in after me.
WBraun

climber
Dec 15, 2013 - 12:49pm PT
Hope you all think you're getting somewhere...

Where's there to go?

We're already here ......
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Dec 15, 2013 - 12:54pm PT

"It's actually enjoyable to contemplate this stuff."...



For about ten seconds or right before it starts making that big LOOP...

go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Dec 15, 2013 - 02:48pm PT
John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”



Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterward He was hungry. 3 Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”
4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”



John 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

30 Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”

32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”

35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”



John 6:47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Dec 15, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
Locker we're not trying to solve the world's problems here. We're just birds of a feather flocking together. Its an interesting thing innit, that fact alone.

Me...and go B, hanging out. Go figger. Dr F and HFCS, Largo and MikeL! And we're not always killing one another or lobbing molotovs. Somehow there are those of us who are attracted to this topic. Taint your cuppa, that's cool bro! Otherwise join in and let's read your honest thoughts about religion.

DMT
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Dec 15, 2013 - 02:56pm PT
I will take your Billy Preston and raise it by his contemporay Nitty Gritty Dirt Band. Imagine a bunch of dirty hippies steering the gospel plow:



DMT
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Dec 15, 2013 - 03:02pm PT
Speaking of Gospel Plows, these guys I know personally and saw them play this way back in 1984 at the Station Inn in Nashville. This may strike some as shallow, and that's because I am. But my friend Allen O'Bryant, the banjer pickler and lead singer of the band, and former workmate of mine, did more for my religious acceptance level than just about any other influence in my life. These guys were moonshine sippin dope smoking hippy musicians (are there any other kind harhar)... and they showed me the meaning of r-e-s-p-e-c-t.



DMT
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Dec 15, 2013 - 03:27pm PT
Locker (and anyone else who read this)

Given I am welded to this easy chair this weekend I feel the urge to type out my own musical revelation. I've told this story before, so if I get my lies confused chalk it up to faulty memory.

I came of age in middle Tennessee, no secret. After serving time in the military I went to work for a firm that sold cash registers, of all things. I worked in the service department for a while, as I got my civilian bearings and began to chart, well as I began to fall into the rest of my life. I don't use charts, actually.

Anyway, I was a rocker like many of my boomer brethren. I detested (and still do) country music, that "Nashville Sound." So it was ironic that I found myself working out of an office (now gone replaced by a condo tower) at 12th and Division. This is one block off Music Row, where then and now many of the great music publishers and recording studios of country music can be found.

Some of the current country stars of that time had souvenir shops on Division St. between our shop and Music Row. Conway Twitty, Lo-retta Lynn, et al. They sold trinkets and memorabilia to music tourists. They were my customers. My company sold and maintained their cash registers, whoopee!

Ironic. I detested their music.

Across from our office was this ugly stone edifice with a nondescript door in it... no windows. I'd driven past it so many times and I thought it was an old boarded up gas station or something. Station.

One day my friend Allen, the guy who worked at the bench in front of mine in the service bay of the building, turned to me and said,

"Dingus, me and my band are playing tonight. You coming to see us?"

Excuse me? Playing where? The Station Inn, right across the street. (you moron) hehe. I had no idea.

See now I knew Allen was a musician. I knew he wanted to make a living at it. This service work he did was just to bide his time. What I didn't know was that they were good. Correction, I did not know they were music legends in the making.

So I worked late and walked across the street. I was early in a manner of speaking. Hey locker you're a music man too aren't you? I seem to recall your boy plays in a band and you know a thing or two about picking? You know, the music doesn't really start until after dinner.

So when I arrived the place was mostly empty. I sipped beer and ate popcorn while the band set up. They paid most meticulous attention to the acoustics, endlessly test test test various mics and pickups, till they were finally satisfied. I was thinking... 'who are yall trying to kid?'

I mean the Station Inn is a dive bar in the classic southern vein... block walls no windows tattered and torn stale beer soaked and cigarette smoke film interior. I was all.. wtf, this aint the Grande Ole Opry! (not YET, Dingus, not YET, Allen might have intoned to me, he was like a big brother to me for a while, gentle with young blockheaded big mouth Dingus)

Allen listened to hard rock, knew his way around a Fender and well, we liked to eat mexican for lunch and smoke it up a bit after work. I pegged him a well groomed hippy in the Grateful Dead manner. He didn't appreciate being compared to the Dead. He had his own gig going not copying anyone, hehe.

So finally, and I'd quaffed a mug or three by then, the place filled up, the lights dimmed and they opened with a number from their new album. It was this song. And the acoustics they'd fiddled over suddenly hit my like a gospel brick... upside the head... without touching an instrument, I suddenly understood and suddenly I knew just how much I did NOT understand...



and it changed forever my perception of music, of Nashville, of religion. Allen O'Bryant, I haven't seen you now in a long time but dude...

THANK YOU, BROTHER.

I love that guy.

DMT
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 15, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
I found out fairly quickly that the easiest way to become accepted in remote Indian and Eskimo villages was to go to church.

They don't look at you like a tourist if you go sing hymns in Inupiat.

It is interesting how these groups have woven Christianity into their culture. It is a different type of Christianity.

The part of modern Christianity that really churns my stomach is this new "prosperity religion."

It even has a wiki page which describes it well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology

This is a totally different type of Christianity than what I was raised on.
moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Dec 15, 2013 - 03:35pm PT

We know right know how to produce pretty much any feeling using electrical or chemical stimulations . . . . All our feelings are nothing else but electro-chemical interactions between your neurons. And you can't tell the difference between the real and induced feelings either.

MikeL
Sources? Citations?


There are thousands of studies.

Here are some samples:

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/dec/05/determination-electrical-brain-stimulation

“'Determination' can be induced by electrical brain stimulation.

“Doctors in the US have induced feelings of intense determination in two men by stimulating a part of their brains with gentle electric currents.
The men were having a routine procedure to locate regions in their brains that caused epileptic seizures when they felt their heart rates rise, a sense of foreboding, and an overwhelming desire to persevere against a looming hardship.”


http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2009/05/07/electrical-stimulation-produces-feelings-of-free-will/

"Electrical stimulation produces feelings of free will”

"Nerves in the limb send messages back to your brain, but the subjective experience you have of stretching isn’t due to these signals. The feeling that you willed your arm into motion, and the realisation that you moved it at all, are both the result of an area at the back of your brain called the posterior parietal cortex. This region helped to produce the intention to move, and predicted what the movement would feel like, all before you twitched a single muscle.
Michel Desmurget and a team of French neuroscientists arrived at this conclusion by stimulating the brains of seven people with electrodes, while they underwent brain surgery under local anaesthetic. When Desmurget stimulated the parietal cortex, the patients felt a strong desire to move their arms, hands, feet or lips, although they never actually did. Stronger currents cast a powerful illusion, convincing the patients that they had actually moved, even though recordings of electrical activity in their muscles said otherwise.
But when Desmurget stimulated a different region – the premotor cortex – he found the opposite effect. The patients moved their hands, arms or mouths without realising it. One of them flexed his left wrist, fingers and elbow and rotated his forearm, but was completely unaware of it. When his surgeons asked if he felt anything, he said no. Higher currents evoked stronger movements, but still the patients remained blissfully unaware that their limbs and lips were budging.

These contrasting responses tell us two important things. Firstly, they show that our feelings of free will originate (at least partially) in the parietal cortex.  It’s the activity of these neurons that creates a sense that we initiate actions of our own accord. Secondly, they show that the sense of moving doesn’t depend very much on actually doing so – it depends on calculations that are made in the parietal cortex, long before the action itself begins."


"Emotions induced by intracerebral electrical stimulation of the temporal lobe."
Meletti S, Tassi L, Mai R, Fini N, Tassinari CA, Russo GL.

Abstract
PURPOSE:
To assess the quality and frequency of emotions induced by intracerebral electrical stimulation of the temporal lobe.
METHODS:
Behavioral responses were obtained by electrical stimulation in 74 patients undergoing presurgical video-stereo-EEG monitoring for drug-resistant epilepsy. Intracerebral electrical stimulation was performed by delivering trains of electrical stimuli of alternating polarity; the intensity could vary from 0.2 to 3 mA. Stimulation frequency was 1 Hz or 50 Hz. Nine hundred thirty-eight stimulation procedures were performed.
RESULTS:
Seventy-nine emotional responses (ERs) were obtained (8.4%). Of these, 67 were "fear responses." Sad feelings were evoked 3 times, happy-pleasant feelings 9 times. Anger and disgust were never observed. The following variables affected the incidence of ER: (a) Anatomical site of stimulation. ERs (always fear) were maximal at the amygdala (12%) and minimal for lateral neocortical stimulation (3%, p < 0.01). (b) Pathology. Stimulation of a temporal lobe with hippocampal sclerosis was associated with a lower frequency of ERs compared with stimulation of a temporal lobe with no evidence of atrophy in the medial temporal structures. (c) Stimulation frequency. ERs were 12% at 50 Hz versus 6.0% at 1 Hz (p < 0.01). (d) Gender. In women fear responses were 16% compared with 3% in men (p < 0.01). There were no gender differences when analyzing nonemotional responses.
CONCLUSIONS:
These data confirm the role of the medial temporal lobe region in the expression of emotions, especially fear-related behaviors. Fear was observed more frequently in the absence of medial temporal sclerosis, supporting the hypothesis that emotional behaviors induced by stimulation are positive phenomena, strictly related to the physiological function of these regions."


As for the chemical methods, I don't think I have to cite anything. People have been using drugs for a very long time now.

I don't know of any experiments that have shown that a feeling or emotion could arise before the neurons had fired.

Again, from my above citation:

"...our feelings of free will originate (at least partially) in the parietal cortex.  It’s the activity of these neurons that creates a sense that we initiate actions of our own accord. Secondly, they show that the sense of moving doesn’t depend very much on actually doing so – it depends on calculations that are made in the parietal cortex, long before the action itself begins."
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Dec 15, 2013 - 05:19pm PT
How can there be a feeling if there isn't an entity to experience it? Feelings cannot be unless they're felt. To feel requires a feeler... there's the mystery: who is that "feeler?"
----------


Do a bunch of Zen and that "feller" will shatter and fall and what is left is simply feeling.

That's why all that talk abut objective functioning "producing" this or that is immaterial. It has nothing to do with sentience, or the experiencing itself.

JL
MH2

climber
Dec 15, 2013 - 05:38pm PT
that talk abut objective functioning "producing" this or that is immaterial. It has nothing to do with sentience, or the experiencing itself.


If you can show sentience without a material platform, there should be a million dollar reward for you, too.


I don't think people have trouble seeing the difference between the Mona Lisa and the paint it is made from. Why such trouble seeing that your self is made up of cells?


Much thanks to Dingus and moosedrool for value added.
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