Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 17621 - 17640 of total 22349 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
jstan

climber
Dec 5, 2013 - 01:08pm PT
If all 100 people say, "Yeah. I just saw something bright come up into the sky" you know you alone did not create the sun rise. If there was no actual sunrise, all 100 people had to have had the same fantasy at about the same time. Like I said. Real easy.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Dec 5, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
The next obvious step in the evolution of religion on this planet is the recognition that all religions have truth to one degree or another and all should be respected as the common heritage of human kind. Fundamentalists aside, this is certainly where the majority of still religious people are now in the West and the East was pretty much always there. Every time the subsistence level changes as into the information age, so does the belief system of the groups affected. It's already happening and the extremists are in their death throes if we can only see that, hang on and manage to survive it.

As for Galileo, he was motivated by thought. In order to conceive of measurement as a way of attaining knowledge, he had to have the visionary thought that it might be the a forward and that he could accomplish it. Perhaps he was motivated by a love of exploration or perhaps by a revulsion against the thinking of the time or most probably both, but his accomplishments were the result of his thoughts.

And there have been instances where 100 people or more swore they saw the same thing which could never be proved by anyone who was not there. There are other examples of 100 people who saw something that another person present from a different culture did not see. The British often described such scenes in India. Mass hysteria and mass hypnosis are two of the explanations that have been given.

Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Dec 5, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
And what exactly makes the general principles of religious ethics unfit for the 21st century? And the traditions of good works and charity? And the associated art and music? And what's wrong with trying to integrate them with a more modern viewpoint? You really should hang out with some modern educated religious people who don't have a fundamentalist mind set.
jstan

climber
Dec 5, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
And what's wrong with trying to integrate them with a more modern viewpoint?

The claim of absolute truth. Get rid of that and you got no religion.
FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Dec 5, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
When folks talk about meditation here in this thread, they may be thinking of sitting austerely in some room with golden idols, incense burning, and chanting in the background

Some people here may think that meditation may be supremely useful as a way to re-organize neural pathways and improve particular skills. There are plenty of other proven techniques that do similar things....particularly in sports, for example. As for meditation providing insight to an alternate reality... I call BS.

I see that materialists don't call those amazing experiences "problems" that need solving. They call them mysteries. Doesn't that signal something that is incomprehensible, something that's impossible to truly describe, something that goes beyond words or labels or mathematics to properly express and understand?

You're detailing limitations of our tools to understand... these tools include language. Some are left "speechless" witnessing a volcanic eruption. Largo is speechless when describing what his mind supposedly does when meditating; you might claim that this manifested "speechlessness" is the result of a mystery, I'd claim it's the other way around. As language improve, mysteries become increasingly particular, more esoteric, more abstract, and more profound.

Consider the child...there are no mysteries for children as they take their world at face value. Magic tricks are lost on little kids as are sunsets and starry nights. You think a little kid spends time thinking of the nature of his/her reality? Why is that?
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Dec 5, 2013 - 01:32pm PT
Jstan: . . . you know you alone did not create the sun rise.

Here it is: here's the gravamen. Finally.

So you're concerned about creating things that don't exist?

My dear friend, sincerely, if that is your most critical concern or worry, let me introduce you to a wealth of literature in psychology, sociology, anthropology, cognitive science, and economics. Ye Gods, people are making up things all the time, and with the help of everyone else, at that. It's called, "consensus reality," "social construction," "groupthink," "escalated commitment," "categorization," "labeling," "classifications," "objectification," "typification," and a few more acts of determination that I can't think of right now.

You and I are much closer than you think. I'm a greater skeptic than you are.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Dec 5, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
If all 100 people say, "Yeah. I just saw something bright come up into the sky" you know you alone did not create the sun rise. If there was no actual sunrise, all 100 people had to have had the same fantasy at about the same time. Like I said. Real easy.


What John S. is trying here is to prove, by way of the first person reporting of 100 subjects, that said sun rise exists independent from all 100. Meaning, you could get rid of the 100 and the sun rise would still be there because it exists outside of the consciousness of the 100, which when commenting on same are simply reporting the "reality" vouchsafed by John's instruments.

Mike's point is that "you know you alone did not create the sun rise" is data only available by way of your direct experience. It can be no other way for humans. It's that simple. No human can come to any knowledge by indirect experience, which is a contradiction.

And Fort, when calling "BS" on meditation, what personal experiences are you drawing upon for your conclusions? You make those statements with such assurance we can only assume you are an expert who has arrives at your conclusions like any viable scientist has: by way of laborious and exact trial and error.

FYI, there is no "alternative reality." Meditation only fills in some of the gaps left by the discursive.

JL
WBraun

climber
Dec 5, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
In the beginning there was just stuff.

It all came together by pure "Chance" as there was no intelligence.

Out of pure chance all this sh!t somehow came together and by miraculous chance intelligence arrived thru evolution of chance.

The modern scientist takes all the proper individual chemicals that are required for "life" and
sets them all individually on the table and waits for chance to come to mix together the "soup" and make "Life" .......

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Dec 5, 2013 - 02:19pm PT
Classic!
WBraun

climber
Dec 5, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
Out of soup came HFSC.

Just see how happy he is fathered by chance.

Who is "Chance" ?????
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 5, 2013 - 02:43pm PT
In the beginning there was just stuff.

It all came together by pure "Chance" as there was no intelligence.

yes, kind of correct, especially likely as it took over 4 billion years to put it all together

and the fact that you personally lack the intelligence to accept this as "probable" says a lot more about you personally than your childish outright rejection


but as five year olds advise: "Build a bridge and get over it, diaper face"
WBraun

climber
Dec 5, 2013 - 02:52pm PT
After over 4 billion years just see the miraculous intelligence "Chance" produced by making Norton's.

No one here can ever be as intelligent as the "Chance" produced Norton .......
jstan

climber
Dec 5, 2013 - 03:00pm PT
So you're concerned about creating things that don't exist?

My dear friend, sincerely, if that is your most critical concern or worry, let me introduce you to a wealth of literature in psychology, sociology, anthropology, cognitive science, and economics. Ye Gods, people are making up things all the time, and with the help of everyone else, at that. It's called, "consensus reality," "social construction," "groupthink," "escalated commitment," "categorization," "labeling," "classifications," "objectification," "typification," and a few more acts of determination that I can't think of right now.

The test with 100 people can be blind and there can be two simultaneous tests to disguise the relevance of the time of day. Still easy.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Dec 5, 2013 - 03:02pm PT
"Who is "Chance" ?????"

Better questions: Who is God? What is God? Perhaps I haven't read through the thread as closely as I should, but I don't remember any of God's supporters defining the term.
WBraun

climber
Dec 5, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
There is no "God" only "Chance" says the supreme know it all Norton.

But then ..... who what is "Chance" ......??????
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Dec 5, 2013 - 03:12pm PT
If God is spirit is everywhere, Chance is possible me posting on this thread, and I guess Chance is God too in the hermetical system... therefore I am God is spirit is Chance is Marlow posting on this thread...
FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Dec 5, 2013 - 03:16pm PT
Let's just throw the words "collective" and "personal" into the non-discursive blender and get....



...collecternal


or .... perective


-The mistaken belief that personal experience cannot add to a collective understanding.

WBraun

climber
Dec 5, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
Marlow says -- "If ... I guess .... therefore I am God"

Science doesn't guess and then make absolutes.

Are you like Norton who's so intelligent he knows everything that happened billions of years ago?
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Dec 5, 2013 - 03:28pm PT


ZM Seung Sahn used to say "only just do it", what ever you are doing, whether it be physics , chemistry, chanting , meditation, watching the sunset or thinking, then they are all the same thing, 100% paying attention. The trick is the 100% paying attention. "only just do it" means no attachment to I , Me , MY to skew the view . It is not that there is no I Me My it is just it has very little influence in the process. Some people call this "big I".

This is a very powerful mind state ; probably everyone here has had it because you usually have to access it to some degree to climb at your highest level.

So once again; there is no conflict between science and meditation and the direction of ethical science is the same direction of ethical meditation. If you do it for only your own well being you will cause suffering because it is selfish; if you do it for all beings, and not your self then it won't cause suffering.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 5, 2013 - 03:39pm PT
Are you like Norton who's so intelligent he knows everything that happened billions of years ago?


well oh childish intellect, I never said I knew everything that happened in the past, you said I did

see how twisted and fuked up your brain works, can't keep even a simple concept straight

but yeah since you brought it up, i AM one hell of a lot smarter than you, a bitter old man wondering around Yosemite and posting nothing but trite dibble on internet forums
Messages 17621 - 17640 of total 22349 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews