Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 17621 - 17640 of total 22989 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
MH2

climber
Oct 9, 2013 - 08:02pm PT
you have to shut up and get quiet for a good long time, on a regular basis, in a group, with expert instructors. This is truly "how it works" with learning anything, especially something as slippery as "this material."


What have you learned?
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Oct 9, 2013 - 08:14pm PT
I call religion dogma. I don't call Largo's mental voyages dogma. He is trying something and reporting back.

Sorry about religion, Werner. I don't have much faith in it. The last thing I want is to go changing people's minds, because it may make them happy. It is not for me, though. I've asked too many questions.

I'm curious how you chose Krishna over, say, evangelical Christianity. That is unusual in a westerner, although they were always hanging out in airports handing out literature.

I remember back in the early eighties when the Krishnas were a nightly fixture on the Boulder mall. It was kind of cool.

Whatever floats your boat. Just don't cram it down my throat.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Oct 9, 2013 - 08:55pm PT
I was first aware of the idea of a "dead document" when listening to Anton Scalia, the supreme court justice, on an NPR interview.

His point was that the constitution was fixed. It said exactly what it meant to say, and changing times and circumstances had zero bearing on what it means. Therefore it is "dead." Those were his actual words. It was not really open to interpretation.

Religion is exactly like this. I'll use Jews, Christians, and muslims as my example. The Torah, the Bible, and the Koran are also "dead" documents. They are literally true from front to back, and there is no real room for interpretation. Therefore they are "dead documents" to use Scalia's words.

Follow me? Scalia is of course a liar, because he attends things like the Koch Brothers invite only meetings, and is active in conservative affairs. I think he is lying when he says that the constitution is "dead" and not open to interpretation in changing times. If you follow his decisions, he is sort of a smart version of Glen Beck, a charlatan of the first order.

I'm excited. I'm not sure when the next set of meditation classes begin, but I have a doctor buddy who sponsors these at his office after hours, and he says that it evens him out and takes the edge off. Of course this is a very small step compared to what John and Mike do.

Werner, I'm not letting you off of the hook. You might think you are being funny, but you say mean things and act like you know all of the answers. You are behaving like a TV evangelist. At least you aren't selling anything for money yet, but you make fiat statements. Do you know all of these things? For real?

The number of things that I don't know is nigh infinite. I just want to have a bite of them.

You can call me a white lab coat mental speculator all that you want, but I challenge any of you to fit that into how I have lived my life, which has been one of seeking out new experiences. I've done all sorts of crazy sh#t and should be dead five times over. That is where I am really at home. Thinking about the next contrived adventure and trying to see it through.

My eyes have seen some amazing things. Hopefully I will live to see some more of them. Sailing has become my current passion. I need to fart around in Chesapeake bay for a season before getting out in the blue water, but man are there a lot of places to go and see with a relatively cheap sailboat.

I'm nothing like Craig, either. Cut that out.
WBraun

climber
Oct 9, 2013 - 09:27pm PT
Choose????

How do you choose something you already have?

Can't be done.

Every sentient being already has it.

Even a single cell amoeba and blade of grass.

It's YOU that has the stupid dogma and has been projecting it onto the world outside of you all along.

Go be an atheist, theist geologist, climber or whatever the fuk religion you want.

You been running your mouth for months how it should be and not how it is.

Get a grip dude .....
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 9, 2013 - 09:38pm PT
^^^ HaHaHaHa.... Quack! Quack!
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 10, 2013 - 07:03am PT
Live and let die.

Da DAH!!!!!

(live and let die)

Da dah DAH
Da DAH
Da DAH!

You all used to say live and let live
(you know you did you know you did you know you did)
But in this ever changing world
in which we live in
made you give up and cry...

da dah DAH?????

LIVE AND LET DIE!!!!!!

The compassion runs weak in this thread.

Don't you love farce?
My fault I fear.
I thought that you'd want what I want.
Sorry, my dear.
But where are the drones?
Quick, send in the drones.
Don't bother, they're here.

Isn't it rich?
Isn't it queer,
Losing my mind this late
In my career?
And where are the drones?
There ought to be drones.
Well, maybe next year.

DMT
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 10, 2013 - 09:20am PT
At the morning meditation today an old timer was saying how he came into the work so gung - ho and wanted answers RIGHT NOW. The Roshi said he had to pace himself. You have to prowl through your unconscious in this work and a little drop will do it. He got a big drop by lark and it fried his circuits. You can't be in hurry with this stuff. Some time ago I wrote this about it in reference to climbing:

For many of us, the only “courage” that makes sense comes through challenging our own fears, respectful that we all have a line that when crossed, we rattle and roll and become swamped with rogue chemicals and wild thoughts—in a word, chaos.

This power, this experience of climbing out past our comfort zone is dynamic, potentially lethal, and intoxicating. It shrivels us, strikes us dumb. But it also makes ducks quack and makes the world go round and if we can hang on the edges of it, waist deep in the eddies, so to speak, we can ride resources we never knew existed and for a charmed moment, transcend ourselves. But one step too far and we’re into the riptide. Then swept over our heads. Then gone. Too much seawater will kill us, but a drop adds flavor.

All of trad climbing and all of adventure sports are about portioning out that drop. It is always self-administered. There are no instructions.

The right amount of exercise makes us stronger; the right amount of bookwork makes us smarter. Carefully ladling out the boldness, a teaspoon at a time, allows us to handle increasingly headier situations. Too much, too fast will overwhelm us and set us back, or worse. Start small.

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Oct 10, 2013 - 10:00am PT

Want to be smarter, happier, more productive?
Apply your superpowers and don't disregard the kryptonite...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNhk3owF7RQ
WBraun

climber
Oct 10, 2013 - 11:08am PT
Want to be smarter, happier, more productive?

You can make em all smarter no doubt.

But they'll still lack intelligence without knowing the science of the soul .....
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Oct 10, 2013 - 11:50am PT
This power, this experience of climbing out past our comfort zone is dynamic, potentially lethal, and intoxicating. It shrivels us, strikes us dumb. But it also makes ducks quack and makes the world go round and if we can hang on the edges of it, waist deep in the eddies, so to speak, we can ride resources we never knew existed and for a charmed moment, transcend ourselves. But one step too far and we’re into the riptide. Then swept over our heads. Then gone. Too much seawater will kill us, but a drop adds flavor.

Largo has swerved into a modicum of unconditional truth here. He is making my earlier point about the dangers of the potentially pernicious abuse of meditation.
Although the dangers are acknowledged , the source of that danger is reflexively ,and even heroically ,misidentified as mainly the deconstruction of discursive thinking.

We are invited to accept the narrative that ordinary consciousness employed in day to day survival and functioning contains a possessive , jealous , and overriding hold on the pedestrian mind--- and thus the AA of Zen practice has the required program to adequately broker such a mind into a state of enlightenment .

But alas this sudden state of enlightenment is so terrifying and unknown that our grasping acolyte , frightened and alone, seeks to rush back into the warmly reassuring but otherwise jealous arms of scientific measuring .
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Oct 10, 2013 - 12:22pm PT
I for one like seeing all this brought round to climbing, since that's why we're really all here anyway. Setting aside the numbers games and the training routines and the gear obsessions, the whole "flow experience," holy grimpeur grail, is essentially a plunge into the non-discursive, n'est-ce pas?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 10, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
But alas this sudden state of enlightenment is so terrifying and unknown that our grasping acolyte , frightened and alone, seeks to rush back into the warmly reassuring but otherwise jealous arms of scientific measuring .


The chances of a meditator actually falling through the rabbit hole are not so great but THAT is the number one reason you have a teacher on hand - to reel you back if you get too deep too fast. This happened to me about three times, pretty early on, and it scared the sh#t out of me. You're basic assumptions of the way things are are suddenly shattered and replaced with nothing at all but a vast impersonal void and there ain't no footing there at all. This is a much more fundamental loss than just the momentary suspension of scientific reasoning. This is like the whole building comes crashing down. the energetic equal of this is called a Kundalini explosion (just metaphors) and your nervous system goes wacky with that one.

But it's all good in the end. But a softer path like Soto is preferred by most. Still, at some time, all of our assumptions have to rattle and roll and all you have for the moment is your presence. Like the first time you bivy on a big wall and can't even believe you are there, and alive.

And yes, this is unconditional truth because Ward says so. Lord have mercy . .
JL
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Oct 10, 2013 - 12:37pm PT
The right amount of exercise makes us stronger; the right amount of bookwork makes us smarter. Carefully ladling out the boldness, a teaspoon at a time, allows us to handle increasingly headier situations. Too much, too fast will overwhelm us and set us back, or worse. Start small (JL)


Excellent advice. And as you mature try to gain an honest perspective on your limitations as well.


;>)
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Oct 10, 2013 - 12:50pm PT
This is a much more fundamental loss than just the momentary suspension of scientific reasoning

Oh I know that.
Your report reinforces the fundamentally existential crisis that can be unleashed if not methodically administered, as you noted.

I simply choose " scientific reasoning" because it happens to be one of those usual suspect candidates often cited as standing in the way of the purity of transcendental excursions .

And yes, this is unconditional truth because Ward says so. Lord have mercy . .

You ever heard of the epic tale Ward of the Rings ?
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Oct 10, 2013 - 01:53pm PT
. Ancient Confession Found: 'We Invented Jesus Christ'
Biblical scholars will be appearing at the 'Covert Messiah' Conference at Conway Hall in London on the 19th of October to present this controversial discovery to the British public.


Jesus Christ: completely constructed from other stories for an ancient Roman propaganda campaign?
[Jesus Christ] may be the only fictional character in literature whose entire life story can be traced to other sources.
London (PRWEB UK) 8 October 2013

American Biblical scholar Joseph Atwill will be appearing before the British public for the first time in London on the 19th of October to present a controversial new discovery: ancient confessions recently uncovered now prove, according to Atwill, that the New Testament was written by first-century Roman aristocrats and that they fabricated the entire story of Jesus Christ. His presentation will be part of a one-day symposium entitled "Covert Messiah" at Conway Hall in Holborn (full details can be found at http://www.covertmessiah.com);.
Although to many scholars his theory seems outlandish, and is sure to upset some believers, Atwill regards his evidence as conclusive and is confident its acceptance is only a matter of time. "I present my work with some ambivalence, as I do not want to directly cause Christians any harm," he acknowledges, "but this is important for our culture. Alert citizens need to know the truth about our past so we can understand how and why governments create false histories and false gods. They often do it to obtain a social order that is against the best interests of the common people."
Atwill asserts that Christianity did not really begin as a religion, but a sophisticated government project, a kind of propaganda exercise used to pacify the subjects of the Roman Empire. "Jewish sects in Palestine at the time, who were waiting for a prophesied warrior Messiah, were a constant source of violent insurrection during the first century," he explains. "When the Romans had exhausted conventional means of quashing rebellion, they switched to psychological warfare. They surmised that the way to stop the spread of zealous Jewish missionary activity was to create a competing belief system. That's when the 'peaceful' Messiah story was invented. Instead of inspiring warfare, this Messiah urged turn-the-other-cheek pacifism and encouraged Jews to 'give onto Caesar' and pay their taxes to Rome."
Was Jesus based on a real person from history? "The short answer is no," Atwill insists, "in fact he may be the only fictional character in literature whose entire life story can be traced to other sources. Once those sources are all laid bare, there's simply nothing left."
Atwill's most intriguing discovery came to him while he was studying "Wars of the Jews" by Josephus [the only surviving first-person historical account of first-century Judea] alongside the New Testament. "I started to notice a sequence of parallels between the two texts," he recounts. "Although it's been recognised by Christian scholars for centuries that the prophesies of Jesus appear to be fulfilled by what Josephus wrote about in the First Jewish-Roman war, I was seeing dozens more. What seems to have eluded many scholars is that the sequence of events and locations of Jesus ministry are more or less the same as the sequence of events and locations of the military campaign of [Emperor] Titus Flavius as described by Josephus. This is clear evidence of a deliberately constructed pattern. The biography of Jesus is actually constructed, tip to stern, on prior stories, but especially on the biography of a Roman Caesar."
How could this go unnoticed in the most scrutinised books of all time? "Many of the parallels are conceptual or poetic, so they aren't all immediately obvious. After all, the authors did not want the average believer to see what they were doing, but they did want the alert reader to see it. An educated Roman in the ruling class would probably have recognised the literary game being played." Atwill maintains he can demonstrate that "the Roman Caesars left us a kind of puzzle literature that was meant to be solved by future generations, and the solution to that puzzle is 'We invented Jesus Christ, and we're proud of it.'"
Is this the beginning of the end of Christianity? "Probably not," grants Atwill, "but what my work has done is give permission to many of those ready to leave the religion to make a clean break. We've got the evidence now to show exactly where the story of Jesus came from. Although Christianity can be a comfort to some, it can also be very damaging and repressive, an insidious form of mind control that has led to blind acceptance of serfdom, poverty, and war throughout history. To this day, especially in the United States, it is used to create support for war in the Middle East."
Atwill encourages skeptics to challenge him at Conway Hall, where after the presentations there is likely to be a lively Q&A session. Joining Mr.Atwill will be fellow scholar Kenneth Humphreys, author of the book "Jesus Never Existed."
Further information can be found at http://www.covertmessiah.com.
About Joseph Atwill: Joseph Atwill is the author of the best-selling book "Caesar's Messiah" and its upcoming sequel "The Single Strand."
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 10, 2013 - 02:34pm PT
For six days work is to be done, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, holy to the WARD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day is to be put to death.

Oh yeah!

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Oct 10, 2013 - 03:10pm PT
Just listen to me and ya'll can't go wrong.

Don't listen to Largo.
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Oct 10, 2013 - 03:46pm PT
When no one is looking I fly around on my carpet (Duck)

A little fluid in the inner ear may be the cause. Bend over and bang your head with your fist. Should clear things up.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Oct 10, 2013 - 04:04pm PT
When no one is looking I fly around on my carpet.
Yogic flying is a subset of levitation just like ladder climbing is a subset of trad climbing.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Oct 10, 2013 - 04:29pm PT
Ancient Confession Found: 'We Invented Jesus Christ'

John 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

...lol, Jesus invented you!
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