Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Nov 27, 2013 - 11:04am PT
Yawn.....

The quantum world describes the smallest of the small. Although parts of matter that make up an elephant, or us, does blink in and out, this does not apply to the elephant.

Unless you can make an elephant vanish. I'd like to see that trick.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 27, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
The quantum world describes the smallest of the small. Although parts of matter that make up an elephant, or us, does blink in and out, this does not apply to the elephant.

Unless you can make an elephant vanish. I'd like to see that trick.


My understanding is that the elephant, or at any rate, bits and pieces of the elephant, are phasing in and out of materiality all the time, it's just not visible to our sense organs.

And Cintune - we all know the Romans did rudimentary science with no zeros. But aside from a flip dismissal, what do you think the chemist meant by the question. What truth was she driving at? Again, the negative takes no brain power. Where lies the new learning, and what is it in this regeards?


JL
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Nov 27, 2013 - 05:53pm PT
I am quite certain that El Cap does not wink in and out of existence.

El Cap is made of igneous minerals, each of which is composed of unique molecules. Sure, if you want to examine each atom on a molecular scale, quantum electrodynamics is important.

On the macroscale, it is not important to me as a geologist.

Another analogy would be that the winner of a marathon is moving faster than the last place racer. There is a difference in "real time" relative to each runner, and that can be calculated precisely using relativity.

The difference is so tiny that it would be difficult to measure. For all practical purposes, Newton's laws of motion give a perfectly useful answer.

Don't go pulling the weird quantum world out in order to justify your woo woo world. This is a mis-application.
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Nov 27, 2013 - 06:47pm PT
And Cintune - we all know the Romans did rudimentary science with no zeros. But aside from a flip dismissal, what do you think the chemist meant by the question. What truth was she driving at? Again, the negative takes no brain power. Where lies the new learning, and what is it in this regeards? (JL)

Sounds like you should have asked her what she meant, rather than come to us for an answer.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 27, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
Sounds like you should have asked her what she meant, rather than come to us for an answer.


I'm not a scientist. She got a doctorate at Caltech and her adviser is a Nobel laurette - rather out of my league per science, by around ten light years. But the avatars of science who post here - I would think they'd jump at the chance to speculate on her drift for us all.

And BASE, per the space that El Cap takes up, what do you think is the ratio of mass (which flickers in and out) and empty space as found between electrons et al? I heard it was space over waves/matter by a ratio of around 100 million to 1.

A physicist writes: The volume of an atom (roughly 1 angstrom, or 10^-10 m in diameter) is about 15 orders of magnitude larger than the volume of a nucleon (roughly 1 fm, or 10^-15 m in diameter). It seems rather silly to express that ratio in percentage, but it would be 99.9999999999999% (13 nines after the decimal point).

(Read more: http://www.physicsforums.com);

So what we're looking at is not only phasing in and out on a quantum scale, it's hardly there on a macro scale.

Adds the phyicist:

The question was asked: The nucleus of a hydrogen atom consists of 3 quarks. But are these quarks are considered 'points?'

If these quarks are 'points,' does that imply the nucleon is 99.99i (i=infinite) empty?

(What % of an atom is empty?)

Answer: The quarks are regarded as being "point" particles, as are electrons. The nucleons, composed of quarks, do indeed have size, since the quarks they contain never get too close to each other. (This is analogous to the way electrons do not fall into the nucleus -- quantum mechanics forbids it.)

In the end, if everything in the world is fundamentally composed of point particles, then everything is really entirely "empty" -- the notion of size is then just defined by the distance between such points. This may, in fact, be completely true.

El Cap then, might be entirely empty in a strict sense, though to us humans, who are made a certain way, it's "rock solid."

JL

jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Nov 27, 2013 - 11:04pm PT
El Cap then, might be entirely empty in a strict sense, though to us humans, who are made a certain way, it's "rock solid." (JL)

True enough, and then comes the peculiar nature of "empty" space.

Interesting posts.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Nov 27, 2013 - 11:10pm PT
Not meant as a "flip dismissal" at all, but this has been recognized ever since Rutherford's early work; everything is mostly empty space. Trying to follow the trend of recent posts, we are apparently obliged now to discern some meaning implicit in this emptiness. But we're also told that there's no rational "discursive" way to do that, which is fairly obvious, and yet... there's some "experiential" work that can be done, if only we were adventurous enough.

Good so far?
MH2

climber
Nov 27, 2013 - 11:41pm PT
this has been recognized ever since Rutherford's


Also not far from a well-known phrase in Ecclesiastes (which contains other parallels to JL's musings) if we take the Hebrew word hebel to mean vapor or emptiness. Mankind has a long history of observing, wondering and intuitive guessing.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 28, 2013 - 12:38am PT
But we're also told that there's no rational "discursive" way to do that, which is fairly obvious, and yet... there's some "experiential" work that can be done, if only we were adventurous enough.
--


Adventurous in the sense that you have to approach this emptiness from another POV. A discursive point of view would approach the work seeing to "experientially" probe the said emptiness. The results in this regards would simply be something "we" might work on.

But this is a dead end - we can easily see why. We've simply swapped out experiential for discursive with the hopes that the payoff from this work will be a boon to us, in some interesting or curious or mind boggling or wuwu way. But that's not what we are talking about.

The process is to let go of the "us" and the seeking, and drop - like driving a spaceship named Cintune into an event horizon and getting swallowed whole. We don't find something out there; rather we start waking up to (fill in the blank with your own experience - I'm done trying that on this list).

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Nov 28, 2013 - 03:01am PT
rather we start waking up to (fill in the blank with your own experience

...oatmeal with fresh blueberries and strawberries, two sunny side eggs with chopped garlic and parsley and a few drops of habanero hot sauce, and a raw meal protein shake in almond milk and kefir.
And a cup of coffee made with precisely 16 coffee beans, no more nor less.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Nov 28, 2013 - 09:14am PT
Largo,

If you want to start pilfering from physics, perhaps you should reconsider your long held contempt for measuring things.

For instance, you are dancing around the Plank Constant.

I highly recommend that you go buy a little bitty book by Richard Feynman:

QED

That book explains some very odd and bizarre things that occur in the universe. Nature is a fascinating topic, and I am heartened by your sudden conversion to physics.

No sh#t, though. The book is a must read for anyone who considers themselves even slightly well read.
WBraun

climber
Nov 28, 2013 - 11:08am PT
Nature is a fascinating topic

Beyond nature is the "root" and source of all Nature and far more fascinating topic that finalizes all mysteries even though one can never come to an end to any one of them ......

The paradox of the Ultimate
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Nov 28, 2013 - 11:09am PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#332443


The last minute conversion...

Mark 15:27 They crucified two robbers with Him, one on His right and one on His left. 28 [And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And He was numbered with transgressors.”] 29 Those passing by were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads, and saying, “Ha! You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, 30 save Yourself, and come down from the cross!” 31 In the same way the chief priests also, along with the scribes, were mocking Him among themselves and saying, “He saved others; He cannot save Himself. 32 Let this Christ, the King of Israel, now come down from the cross, so that we may see and believe!” Those who were crucified with Him were also insulting Him.


Luke 23:32 Two others also, who were criminals, were being led away to be put to death with Him.

33 When they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left. 34 But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.” And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves. 35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.” 36 The soldiers also mocked Him, coming up to Him, offering Him sour wine, 37 and saying, “If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself!” 38 Now there was also an inscription above Him, “THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.”

39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!” 40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”


2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief...

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

...before it's to late, whatcha waiting for! :)
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 28, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
If you want to start pilfering from physics, perhaps you should reconsider your long held contempt for measuring things.


Let me unequivocally state that not now, nor in the past, nor in the future have I held a contempt for measuring "things."

My contention is that measuring is the one and only mode of dealing with things. But reality is bigger than it's component things, and measuring is of little value in this larger arena.

Those who feel otherwise - that there is nothing larger than science - are the champions of scientism, whereby measuring is given a kind of favored nation position per knowing. The problem here, and it is not insignificant, is that we cannot approach anything but things, which by the beliefs of scientism, constitute the only true reality. It's a closed loop. And it all makes discursive sense within the loop. But the loop has a boundary - as must all measurable things - and the belief that anything outside the loop is wuwu or speculation or God is in fact simply more scientism.

So no, BASE. I have nothing against measuring or quantifying. As mentioned, I wouldn't have gotten too far with all those tech manuals without an appreciation for hard info. It's just that I know the story does not end there.

Per Feynman - the folks I used to ride with over at Caltech have some exciting stories about the man. He apparently was a champion of titty bars and strip clubs, among other things.

Happy Thanksgiving, ya'all.

JL

PHOTO BY DAVE KOEPSEL
PHOTO BY DAVE KOEPSEL
Credit: Largo
MH2

climber
Nov 28, 2013 - 01:07pm PT
the belief that anything outside the loop is wuwu or speculation or God is in fact simply more scientism.


Religion is scientism?

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 28, 2013 - 05:29pm PT
the belief that anything outside the loop is wuwu or speculation or God is in fact simply more scientism.

Religion is scientism?

1. The BELIEF that anything outside the discursive bubble is at best, a poor substitute for the discursive (per rendering anything true), is the core distortion of scientism. Religion lies outside the discursive loop.

2. Religion was not arrived at through experimentation rendering definable/numerical representation and predictable results in the material world.

3. Therefore A) Religion is NOT scientism, and B) your literalism has the stubborn flair of garden variety OCD, LOL.

Gobble Gobble . . .

JL
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Nov 28, 2013 - 06:22pm PT
Science concerns itself with reality; it leaves delusions to religion.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 28, 2013 - 06:51pm PT
Science concerns itself with reality.



Science concerns itself with physical things. The belief that all of reality is composed of measurable, physical things is called scientism.

JL

I gots me a funky lookin' head. So what?
I gots me a funky lookin' head. So what?
Credit: Largo
WBraun

climber
Nov 28, 2013 - 07:27pm PT
The ridiculous mutt returns and says:

Science concerns itself with reality; it leaves delusions to religion.


Go back to the you hate Christianity thread where you belong because you are the one who's in complete delusion of reality.
MH2

climber
Nov 28, 2013 - 09:30pm PT
Religion is NOT scientism


Thank you for the correction. Your previous statement could be taken otherwise. You have said before that you sometimes, "dash these things off." Fair enough; the human is fallible. But confused, speculative, wrong, and overly general pronouncements take authority away from what you claim for meditation.
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