Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Aug 5, 2013 - 08:33pm PT

If you do not know how life began then all your knowledge remains completely incomplete and ultimately defective.

Just as your mathematical models are ......

Werner, just shut up...

edit: I don't make mathematical models. I just map where the rocks are and how they got into that relationship. Sometimes it is easy. Sometimes it is so hard that your head nigh explodes. At this stage of my career, I tend to get the latter assignments.

I'll post something if I can make it fit into the small size ST allows.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Aug 5, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
This is cool:

Our practice in meditation and mindfulness helps to guide us in working with… and regulating our mind chatter through open, receptive awareness and relaxed, stable concentration. What most people have trouble understanding about mind chatter is the inability we have to exercise control over its presence through an intellectual process. It knows us better than we consciously know ourselves. However, what mind chatter does not like is to be objectively watched or witnessed. As an abiding witness to this rambling of mind, we can diffuse its persistence and its virulence when we stop feeding and identifying with it. We skillfully continue watching or observing it intentionally and nonjudgmentally as nothing more than another event of mind rising and passing in the realm of our self-awareness.

Attitude, perspective, and discipline are key to regulating mind chatter. To simply sit and observe as we have frequently discussed is not as easy as it sounds. However, once the spaces of silence between our thoughts are recognized, the intellect tends to fumble, an influx occurs, and inspiration and intuition begins to flow more freely as we disconnect our automaticity and the reactionary cycle that generally follows. Observing mind chatter with the open & receptive awareness of mindfulness can be the beginning of a transformative process that has real potential to not only quiet the mind and relax the body, but to change the way we are able to work, play, and live free from being drawn into the recurring performances of mind.
MH2

climber
Aug 5, 2013 - 09:28pm PT
Here is a nice snippet from the BASE104 link:

We skillfully continue watching or observing it intentionally and nonjudgmentally as nothing more than another event of mind rising and passing in the realm of our self-awareness.


Here, 'it' refers to what the link succinctly calls mind chatter. I do not claim to be skillful and am not sure whether my observation is intentional but the above otherwise describes my own experience, minus the parts of the day when my brain appears to be empty of thought.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 5, 2013 - 10:16pm PT
BASE, you're trying to describe all of this in third person terms, objectifying qualia, discursive, and so forth. This gives you something to evaluate and "know" in the normal sense of the term. You're rightfully frustrated with mje because I have for all these years pretty much avoided using third person angles on any of this, since most everyone else does. It's not that I cannot doi this, but for sake of this conversation, I stick with 1st person.

Anyway, consciously switch from 3rd person (objectifying) to 1st person experiential, which is the POV that the person used, more or less, in describing mindfulness and mind chatter - using discursive powers to look at the experience AFTER spending some time in intake mode, sans evaluating. Just watching.

The idea here is not to "get clear" on the content, but to start to get jiggy with the process: what is happening in the broad sense, and how are you participating. How does consciousness work and unfold from the 1st person POV. Qualia is content. Forget all that for a monent and look at things throgh a much wider lens.

Getting hypnotized by content is like Narcissis getting transfixed by his own image.

What, in the broadest sense, is actuall happening in terms of the process? Make it as tangible as you possibly can.

JL
WBraun

climber
Aug 5, 2013 - 10:23pm PT
BASE104 -- "I don't make mathematical models."

I wasn't very clear on that.

I wasn't referring to you as an individual with that statement to begin with.

I was referring to the mathematical models we make towards, life.

Had nothing to do with you at all actually.

Try not to go to far over the deep end with this stuff.

Too many jump too far and miss the landing .....



Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Aug 6, 2013 - 07:00am PT
I never said any such thing .... You did Jingy.


 No, werner, you wrote:
The source of Consciousness is not from the brain but within the heart.

 Please point out the differences.


Some of you may need to watch this video.. its instructive to your arguements...

MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Aug 6, 2013 - 09:22am PT
Jingy:

All of the "models" that Mr. Cohen presents in the video you posted (arguments as war, proof, and performance--all metaphors) are oriented to power--of domination, of being right or correct, of showing-off or that one is better than another. Without an orientation to power, there is no argument for arguments. Arguments are the supports for belief systems, and belief systems are also artifacts of efforts towards power. All of them seem to close off possibilities, which is unfortunate considering that not one of them can be proven to be true.

Most arguments appear to rely strictly upon reason and logic in our mental-rational world. Contradictions, paradoxes, or dilemmas are viewed as indications that something is not quite right. (Belief systems!).

There appear to be just So Many things that logic and reason (and science) cannot handle very well. Here's a short list.

Values, culture, visions, art, heroes, God, human aspirations, heart, soul, mystery, great passions, doubt / skepticism, religious experiences, uniqueness, folk mind, death, great men and women, ambiguity, nobility, taste, brilliance, paradox, glory, war, chaos, awareness, primitive feelings, taboos, action, intuition, indeterminacy, truth, deeds, perfection, danger, nonconformity, contrast, humor, passions, salvation, creativity, truth, virtue, genius, extremes, demonic beings, good & evil, leadership, dignity, decisions, polarities, instinct, sleep, dreams, history, entrepreneurship, faith, unconsciousness, authenticity, commitment, poetry, charisma, ends, the sacred.

It's unfortunate that TED is so cognitively oriented. There is so much more to see and become aware of than just cognitive speculations, theories, and abstractions. Cognitive abstraction and orientations tend to dismiss subjective experiences as irrelevant and foolish.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 6, 2013 - 09:58am PT
It's unfortunate that TED is so cognitively oriented. There is so much more to see and become aware of than just cognitive speculations, theories, and abstractions. Cognitive abstraction and orientations tend to dismiss subjective experiences as irrelevant and foolish.
--

The irony here is that cognition itself transpires within a subjective arena. No matter how much people try and transform themselves into objective things, they remain subjects to their own cognitions. Remove the subjectivity and the whole tottering show comes tumbling down - that seems lost on many here, a most fantastic fact that says volumes about the trance of cognition. Many people are so hoodwinked by their own mental processes that the experiential is buried and beyond reach till some life event basically overwhelms their ability to escape intol thinking. Others have to get up on bivy ledges a mile in the sky to ever feel themselves in the here and now beyond their thoughts about it.

Tryng to get people to go there, even for a second, cajoling, teasing, riling, bullying, is nolt only like hearding cats, but verifies what Dennett was saying - that everyone considers themselves an expert on consciousness - till you ask for a 1st perspon description of the particulars. Then the chorous goes quite in a hurry, or you get a load of verbiage deflecting the issues and the question or throwing it back on me or others. What you don't get is a straight and honest answer, like: I have no idea what any of this is about as anything but a 3rd person phenomenon.

JL
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 6, 2013 - 10:14am PT
Largo,

Now you're pretending again. We've been through this before. If you try putting the 1st person description of the particulars into words you end up without 1st person non-discursive particulars. I wonder why you keep on with your fancy footwork. The best answer I can come up with is that you consider this thread to be a good marketing channel for some business of your's.

Are you working within the meditative business?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Aug 6, 2013 - 11:24am PT
The best answer I can come up with is that you consider this thread to be a good marketing channel for some business of your's.



I did some P-eye research on Largo and uncovered this interesting link :

Punjab business directory providing a comprehensive database of Punjab Nehru jacket Manufacturers Exporters Suppliers Wholesalers & Distributors. Punjab and all world Buyers can find the catalogs of Nehru jacket manufacturers exporters also post your Requirement to Sellers. Find Nehru jacket Buy Sell Offers at Punjab B2b Marketplace

For today's on-the -go meditator

Hip...happening...today...and "now"

Credit: Ward Trotter
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Aug 6, 2013 - 12:01pm PT
Are you working within the meditative business?

Ha-ha. Good one.

I don't think he'd have many followers or clients, Marlow. Not gentle enough.

The first three rules of consulting are: get the job, get the job, get the job. (You must be nice.)
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Aug 6, 2013 - 12:21pm PT
It's unfortunate that TED is so cognitively oriented. There is so much more to see and become aware of than just cognitive speculations, theories, and abstractions. Cognitive abstraction and orientations tend to dismiss subjective experiences as irrelevant and foolish.

I did not look at the video in question, or many of the TED talks. I prefer to interact with the thinkers on this thread rather than brokering off-site third party wholesaler or retailers, however brilliant

MikeL , I assume you are referring to information based upon rational , scientific ,logical analysis when you say " cognitive".

You averred there is "...so much more" than cognitive speculations.

Actually there is "so much less". And by that ,I mean ,if the gold standard for general validity is the relative absence of "theories, speculations ,and abstractions" then the subjective experience, or what we know of it, in the objective arena, is second to none in this horse race of speculation and invalidity.

In the world of the cognitive we have perhaps a handful of serious theories under consideration regarding the origins of life, or the probable formation of the solar system.
In the non-cognitive we have ...how many paths to knowledge??
And these paths have led to how much speculation and metaphysical theorizing ?
How many gurus, how many "systems of enlightenment"?
How many acid trips?

There is way ,way too much noise there for anyone interested in a primary focus on the relatively non-dissonant knowable -- like protons, diphtheria , and forensic archaeology-- or the implications that proceed from them.

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 6, 2013 - 12:23pm PT
Ok, possibly not business then.

Here's a person I think would end up being sued in America because he is saying things that are bad for the meditation business:


Dalai Lama: Sleep is the best meditation...

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 6, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
Now you're pretending again. We've been through this before. If you try putting the 1st person description of the particulars into words you end up without 1st person non-discursive particulars. I wonder why you keep on with your fancy footwork. The best answer I can come up with is that you consider this thread to be a good marketing channel for some business of your's.


Nope. This is not true at all - although you're language and phrasing is once more nigh bass-ackwards. You haven't been reading the parts about intake and after-the-fact break downs. Nor yet the difference between content (particulars) and process. This is not easy material, BTW.

My invitation was to describe the PROCESS, in the broadest possible terms. What is it about that question that strikes you as "fancy footwork?" Put differently, what part of that question do you NOT understand.

If scientism has you by the short hairs, you will not be able to admit to being in dark about anything, which is the curse of many on this thread. The defalt being to say I am confused or mistaken. Just kindly note the aversion to even start to address the question: Describe the PROCESS of consciousness from the 1st person. What do you see and what are you aware or in terms of how consciousness happens and how, say, you come to evaluate one thign as opposed to another.

The reason I keep on with my "fancy footwork" is that eventually, you and others will start focusing on the process and the conversation will get interesting from there. The reason I'm a bully and cantankerous is that I have no interest in positioning myself as anyone's teacher, as an expert, as a master of any kind (I'm not), or someone pandering for a response or selling a product.

Focus on the process and jot out what you see. Then we WILL have something to talk about. The 1st person stuff has been done to death.

And Ward, this betrays your position: "Then the subjective experience, or what we know of it, in the objective arena, is second to none in this horse race of speculation and invalidity."

You have said, in clear language, that your own subjective experice is, by your reckoning, purly "speculative and invalid." What more, you have gone on and made the common but amateur mistake of universalizing your beliefs about YOUR subjective to apply to all mankind. What experiences have you had that led you to that conclusion? And I don't mean experiences vectored off someone elses words or ideas or accounts, but rather, your very own personal experiences, what is really and truly your own, however speculative and invalid they may feel to you.

JL
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 6, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
Largo:

First you said:
«… everyone considers themselves an expert on consciousness - till you ask for a 1st perspon description of the particulars. Then the chorous goes quite in a hurry, or you get a load of verbiage deflecting the issues and the question or throwing it back on me or others.

Note the original words: «… till you ask for a 1st perspon description of the particulars»

Now you say:
«… You haven't been reading the parts about intake and after-the-fact break downs. Nor yet the difference between content (particulars) and process. This is not easy material, BTW.

My invitation was to describe the PROCESS, in the broadest possible terms»

Note the new words: «…My invitation was to describe the PROCESS»

Do you see your fancy footwork? The coinage of your mind is a contradictory mess…
... and you change position every time you are challenged...
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 6, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
And this is what's happening in the political world around you:

"Two young children in Pennsylvania were banned from talking about fracking for the rest of their lives under a gag order imposed under a settlement reached by their parents with a leading oil and gas company.

The sweeping gag order was imposed under a $750,000 settlement between the Hallowich family and Range Resources Corp, a leading oil and gas driller. It provoked outrage on Monday among environmental campaigners and free speech advocates.

The settlement, reached in 2011 but unsealed only last week, barred the Hallowichs' son and daughter, who were then aged 10 and seven, from ever discussing fracking or the Marcellus Shale, a leading producer in America's shale gas boom.

The Hallowich family had earlier accused oil and gas companies of destroying their 10-acre farm in Mount Pleasant, Pennsylvania and putting their children's health in danger. Their property was adjacent to major industrial operations: four gas wells, gas compressor stations, and a waste water pond, which the Hallowich family said contaminated their water supply and caused burning eyes, sore throats and headaches.

Gag orders – on adults – are typical in settlements reached between oil and gas operators and residents in the heart of shale gas boom in Pennsylvania. But the company lawyer's insistence on extending the lifetime gag order to the Hallowichs' children gave even the judge pause, according to the court documents.

The family gag order was a condition of the settlement. The couple told the court they agreed because they wanted to move to a new home away from the gas fields, and to raise their children in a safer environment. "We need to get the children out of there for their health and safety," the children's mother, Stephanie Hallowich, told the court.

She was still troubled by the gag order, however. "My concern is that they're minors. I'm not quite sure I fully understand. We know we're signing for silence for ever but how is this taking away our children's rights being minors now? I mean my daughter is turning seven today, my son is 10.""

Any thoughts?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Aug 6, 2013 - 01:02pm PT
You have said, in clear language, that your own subjective experice is, by your reckoning, purly "speculative and invalid." What more, you have gone on and made the common but amateur mistake of universalizing your beliefs about YOUR subjective to apply to all mankind. What experiences have you had that led you to that conclusion? And I don't mean experiences vectored off someone elses words or ideas or accounts, but rather, your very own personal experiences, what is really and truly your own, however speculative and invalid they may feel to you.

Is this any way to talk to a potential customer? And just when I was about to glom on to a few crates of them Nehrus.

No seriously , you have taken my post above way, way out of context.
Read MikeL's post at the top of the page in which he laments on the preponderance of the cognitive on TED.
That was the context of my response and comments. That is why i used the language:

then the subjective experience, or what we know of it,

The "we" clearly illustrates that I was not making any declarations or " betrayals" whatsoever about the nature or content of my own personal ,so-called, subjective experiences .
You did not observe this crucial qualifying distinction because you are a 'one note Johnny' and primarily focused upon your own foot work.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 6, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
The amazing ability to deflect answering a question, rather than to frankly and honestly admit that you don't know, is astonishing.

Dear Marlow. Eliminating fancy footwork here: Kindly describe the particulars of your experiential process. NOT the particularts of the content (the qualia), but rather, the particular aspects of your subjective PROCESS that you notice. Your responses suggest that my lack of clarity in asking the qustion makes answering it impilssible. Surely that makes it clear to a three-year old.

Now lets see who does the dancing, because one thing is for sure - none of you punters will take an honest crack at the question. How do you honestly hold down a job in Norg if you cannot even addres a simple inquiry? What about the question fries your circuits?

And Ward, of course I am focused on my own process, it's a default position since you pikers are terrified of mentioning one word about your own, and instead circle the qustion endlessly, but never rpoping up and making an honest move for glory. You're like what Tillich said of the logicians: They sharpen the knife, but verily, they never cut the loaf.

And what was not "lost on me" was your language, "so-called" subjective expereience. What else would you call your experience, Ward. "So-called" suggests alternatives. What might those be. Surly you're not reverting to the recently debunkled fiction that subjectivity and experience are in face cultural and cognitive inventions. And for once, try and answer sans the forked-tongue, deflecting and yammering and doing nigh everything but honestly and directly addressing a simple question.

Now sac it up and pull down.

JL
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Aug 6, 2013 - 03:30pm PT
JL,

I think that you should approach this with a dose of third person content. That is, if I can go out in five minutes on google and learn more about some of these ideas than I can with years of you, then you must understand the frustration many of us have now and then.

Haven't you noticed that nobody ever seems to "get it"? If it were me, I would do my best to help people understand difficult concepts. The only point in being mysterious is to impress somebody, or enjoy watching them making mistakes. No real teacher behaves this way.

After spending a few hours searching out definitions and explanations of terms, for the first time I feel like I have a grasp of what you are getting at.

Mike explained the discursive mind some while back, but it never caught on.

It is pretty simple. Anybody reading this should just stop and listen for the chatter going on in your brain. That chatter is the discursive mind...I think, and it is damned hard to make it stop. JL and Mike meditate to quiet the discursive mind and find some sort of distilled experience there.

These are assumptions, but I'm doing my best.

I do try to understand this stuff. I have better things to do with my time than just trying to win the adjective contest.

An idea should be easy to explain. I think that this idea is capable of easy understanding if the teacher starts out with first grade and moves forward.

I believe that the root of the word discursive is from the word discourse, which means communicating using words as one example.

We are limited in this forum by our inability to use anything other than written words.

Anyway, I certainly have a running discourse in my mind. When I get overworked, it is hard to shut down, so I don't enjoy it.

If the point is to silence discursive thought through meditation, what is the point? Or rather, what is the goal?

I've made a lot of statements in this post, but they are just my best attempt. It is always better to correct somebody than to berate them, so please don't berate me for attempting. Just straighten me out, and use small words.

edit: See? You are doing it with Marlow and Ward. Cut it out and just teach, otherwise this is a fruitless direction of discussion. We are all adults (I'm accused otherwise, though) and this conversation should be to share ideas.

Then we can gleefully try to shoot down the ideas. This is an important part of any learning process.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Aug 6, 2013 - 03:57pm PT
I should say that while I can't stop the discursive chattering, I can steer it in certain directions.

When I get to working, it takes a lot of concentration and recall. I then go to sleep and dream geology of a particular area. It drives me nuts trying to get it out of my noggin sometimes.

To decompress, I go to the boonies. After a few weeks alone in an already remote place performs a duty similar to meditation. These are moments where you do not think. You do. I've described it enough times for everyone to have an understanding of it, and I've done so much crazy stuff that no sane person would believe it anyway.

Perhaps I am able to turn the volume of the discursive chatter down. Say from 11 to 3 or so on the dial.

Right now I am at 11, and it is exhausting.

John, that last post above is a total waste of our time. Do better than that. A lot of this falls on your shoulders, because you would rather fight than teach. You also get to use your thesaurus in order to not repeat an insult. This is dumb. Pointless.
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