Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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MH2

climber
Sep 30, 2013 - 09:11pm PT
Actually all of this comes from direct experience from a practice.

Hard to argue with that.

Could be illusion, though.
MH2

climber
Sep 30, 2013 - 09:15pm PT
Common sense, for instance, says that a physician who attempts to measure a patient's blood pressure is faced with a problem. What she measures is not simply blood pressure, but the blood pressure of a person having his blood pressure taken by a physician. A physician would be wiser to look for indirect means of determining true blood pressure than to assert that her "observer-created" reality is all the reality that exists — and that the patient has no blood pressure until she tries to measure it.

This seems preposterous.

The question is not whether it is preposterous. The question is whether and if so what the physician should do about the patient's blood pressure.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Oct 1, 2013 - 12:37am PT
The question is whether and if so what the physician should do about the patient's blood pressure.

Indeed, in an ambiguous, multidimensiona,l and equifinal world, what should a physician do?

Whether you ascribe to a commonsense view, or an academic view of many theoretical sorts, you might see the world as having an almost innumerable causes or drivers to consider.

Which variable or model of blood pressure is the right one to shift or influence? One, many, only some, in sequence, . . . what? There will undoubtedly be research studies for you to appeal to and quote, but none of them have a very high R-square even if they agreed with one another (which I doubt).

So, instead, you might simply choose the research or model with the highest predictive power.

But what do you know about the patient, really? What do you know about their family or personal history, genetics, diet, psychological stressors, what else they've heard before seeing you, or even their interpretations of their own observations of you attempting to take their blood pressure?

You would think that blood pressure (forget about what it might mean) would be a fairly straightforward diagnostic task and stipulate a unequivocal approach. It's my view from here that nothing is unequivocal or certain or simple. (It just looks like it from the cheap seats.)

I'd be close to saying taking blood pressure IS preposterous. (But I don't know.)

You turn almost everything into a technical issue, mechanics, and orient to achievement or performance. Those may not provide an appropriate view or understanding on everything.

I see everything is immensely complicated and impossible to articulate accurately. Infinite, in fact. You might well poo-poo that as being mystical or spiritual. I don't think you're being honest with yourself intellectually. I think in your heart of hearts you suspect as much.
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Oct 1, 2013 - 01:43am PT
I'm curious to learn if you flux proponents think there might be intelligent entities out there that cannot be assembled by our consciousness but could still impact us physically? Castaneda called one such entity "allies." If we can only format the cosmic flux in limited ways we might not recognize we are not alone.

Angels, go-b ?


;>)
MH2

climber
Oct 1, 2013 - 12:03pm PT
You turn almost everything into a technical issue, mechanics, and orient to achievement or performance. Those may not provide an appropriate view or understanding on everything.

I see everything is immensely complicated and impossible to articulate accurately. Infinite, in fact. You might well poo-poo that as being mystical or spiritual. I don't think you're being honest with yourself intellectually. I think in your heart of hearts you suspect as much.




It is true that in medicine one often does not look for understanding on everything. There may not be time and is that what the patient needs?

Taking blood pressure has become ritual in medicine. Too often it is done just because policy says it must be done. I don't need a formal study to know that of the zillions of blood pressures checked by health-care workers, very few become an important factor in choosing a treatment option. All they do is show that blood pressure is not too low or too high.

However, to take one example, blood pressure in a post-surgical patient could let you know if there is internal bleeding or some other life-threatening condition.





I am FOR mystery and spiritualism. Iceland is doing a good thing in making their roads go around where the elves and spirits live.

SOME issues have a mechanical, technical, achievement-oriented side. As a woman genius once put it, all the caring in the world is not sufficient if the nurse is not at the same time competent.



A few Florence Nightingale quotes


“You ask me why I do not write something.... I think one's feelings waste themselves in words, they ought all to be distilled into actions and into actions which bring results.”


“Rather, ten times, die in the surf, heralding the way to a new world, than stand idly on the shore.”


"You must go to Mahometanism, to Buddhism, to the East, to the Sufis & Fakirs, to Pantheism, for the right growth of mysticism."
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Oct 1, 2013 - 12:21pm PT
Jgill:

Reality is always consonant or true to itself. Be in harmony with it and experience bliss. Go against it and experience difficulty and pain It will hurt you, others, and give rise to conflict for all beings.

You can see these dynamics as spirits, beings, allies, or angels. You could conjure them up. In the end, it's all you anyway, just in different expressions.

The thing we are all struggling towards is ourselves.

The path of least resistance is simply being in harmony with reality. When you're in harmony, it feels as though you're being pulled forward because you've let go of everything. Then things show up exactly as you need them (given where you're at).
FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Oct 1, 2013 - 12:23pm PT
Today, no consensus on the definition of mathematics prevails, even among professionals.There is not even consensus on whether mathematics is an art or a science. A great many professional mathematicians take no interest in a definition of mathematics, or consider it undefinable. Some just say, "Mathematics is what mathematicians do," a definitive non-answer on par with, 'Consciousness is what the brain does.'"

By tossing out this lame quote, Largo proves the point that not only does he NOT understand math, but fails to even understand it's basic purpose as a language. This is understandable; a limited mind, after all, only uses the tools immediately at hand, and when all you have is words then your understanding will only revolve around those limited words. You can then stand apart from your peers by parsing, quoting, twisting, and other semantic gymnastics, but, in the end, you're still the "circle" mind living in a "spherical" world.

We spent the best years of our youth honing skills on rocks, avoiding our classes on multivariate calculus. No wonder we give it short shrift here.

MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Oct 1, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
Iceland is doing a good thing in making their roads go around where the elves and spirits live.

I DID NOT KNOW this. Really? (Whoa.)

I understand the common and wide call for action when it comes to ethics, moral codes, and law. Just about everyone believes action is the right thing to do for so many reasons. I will not argue against it because of a sure firestorm of outcry that would ring out were I to do so. From my point of view, compassion does not lead to spirituality; a product of spirituality gives rise to compassion, though. Here are a few thoughts.

"Don't hurt" does not mean "do good."

A man who knows what's good (morality) for others is dangerous.

When one sees sorrow and suffering, he or she should simply be with it. Do not rush into activity. Neither action nor learning really helps. Helping to understand helps.

Activity is not action. A change of heart is action.

If one radiates light and peace with no intention or knowledge, he or she will do more good than all the philanthropists, statesmen, and corporate social responsibility programs in the world.

If one wants peace, they can be peace. Those who most deserve peace are those who do not break it.

Finding oneself brings everything into place.

How can one help others when one is themselves in need of help?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Oct 1, 2013 - 01:19pm PT
Scripture thought for the day ...


The very rich just don't get it. The Republicans and those who are like them who play games with peoples lives and make things worse, shutting down our government and all at their own pleasure to make a greedy point. They have made the point very clear. They are full of hate and greed.


1 Timothy 6:17-19(NIV)

"17 Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19 In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life."

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Oct 1, 2013 - 01:28pm PT
"God is a meme that defies you to ignore it."

LOL!

Obviously, some can't, lol!!11
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Oct 1, 2013 - 01:28pm PT
A straw of rye

A rain-wet straw of rye on a rail-fence
is better than ten angels in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 1, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
By tossing out this lame quote, Largo proves the point that not only does he NOT understand math, but fails to even understand it's basic purpose as a language.


That "lame quote" was paraphrased from a math dood who won the Fields Medal, often described as the "Nobel Prize of Mathematics."

You just embarrassed your own self, so it's back in the corner with the pointy hat, you silly rabbit.

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Oct 1, 2013 - 02:38pm PT
The very rich just don't get it. The Republicans and those who are like them who play games with peoples lives and make things worse, shutting down our government and all at their own pleasure to make a greedy point. They have made the point very clear. They are full of hate and greed.

I am not a Republican, but the above example is abundant proof that relatively unsophisticated political propaganda still gets tremendous traction with ill-informed people lulled into uncritical complacency and who refuse to think for themselves.

Nothing personal, I'm just making a point.
I normally try not to get involved in things like this but political propaganda and its effects on people are a major irritation and pet peeve with me ; this is one thing that being a student of history has taught me.
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Oct 1, 2013 - 02:49pm PT
A great many professional mathematicians take no interest in a definition of mathematics

True. Most, in fact. Otherwise you find yourself in the sort of semantic miasma displayed by some of our colleagues on this site.


;>)
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Oct 1, 2013 - 02:52pm PT
Seen from Europe it seems quite obvious that ideologically blinded Republicans are playing games with peoples lives. But the ideology has spread beyond the Republican party... as the words of Ward confirms...
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Oct 1, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
From the Money world

The 10 best quotes from financial insiders

As the banking blog comes to an end, here are some choice quotes that epitomise the series from people I interviewed in the finance sector

One quote: "Investment banking is a trap, a game and an addiction. The reward is big, but uncertain, which makes it exciting and keeps you coming back for more. Once the money starts flowing it's very, very hard to take yourself away from it. Doing a deal is like scoring a goal, or maybe for journalists, getting a scoop. The game element is in the rivalry with other teams, winning the mandate, legging over the competition … Also the emptiness that comes with addiction."

Another: "Do I deserve to be me, rather than some guy in Darfur trying not to starve to death or get murdered. I get paid a lot because I can do things, but if I had been born mentally handicapped I wouldn't. That's life. I do ask to be paid well when I've done good work, but that doesn't mean I feel entitled to anything."

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/joris-luyendijk-banking-blog/2013/oct/01/10-best-quotes-financial-insiders-banking-blog
FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Oct 1, 2013 - 02:58pm PT
That "lame quote" was paraphrased from a math dood...

Precisely. You found an interesting quote, took it completely out of context, twisted it, mangled it, and hammered it into the formless blob otherwise known as your understanding of mathematics and it's uses. Maybe you think that having "no definition of mathematics" as per a mathematician, is the same as your inability to understand it's utility.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Oct 1, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
Marlowe:
That's because you belong to a demographically vanishing culture that has pitifully embraced a creepy level of dependency on total cradle to grave bureaucratic government control of your lives , all of which is being fueled by the oil offshore and the international interests that will one day take control of it, if it doesn't dry up.
Don't worry, you might probably be too old or dead by then.
Until then you can keep convincing yourself that it's someone else that is greedy and playing with people's lives. Or whatever the current propaganda says.

I might add that your belief system is propped up by an "ideology "as well . Maybe you've convinced yourself that it's something else.
Seen from the US it looks ideological.

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Oct 1, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
You just confirmed my point, Ward, with your shallow analysis. Sweden and Finland are not oil-driven and Denmark to a lesser extent. Norway is.

You may be right about the "interests"... the ability of the "interests" to destroy globally is growing and I'm not talking about the AntiChrist (axis of evil) and Crusade (a la Bush in Iraque) of the Republican party and the American religious-military-oil-banking-establishment... Though the last are in the long run more of a threat than the first.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 1, 2013 - 03:20pm PT
Fortmental:

Not cigar. You're just digging yourself a deeper hole, as often happens with a stolid, illiterate rube believe that because the purest dross spews freely from one side of their pie hole, it is automatically true. Not this time. The entire quote runs as follows:

Definitions of mathematics

Aristotle defined mathematics as "the science of quantity", and this definition prevailed until the 18th century.[28] Starting in the 19th century, when the study of mathematics increased in rigor and began to address abstract topics such as group theory and projective geometry, which have no clear-cut relation to quantity and measurement, mathematicians and philosophers began to propose a variety of new definitions.[29]

Some of these definitions emphasize the deductive character of much of mathematics, some emphasize its abstractness, some emphasize certain topics within mathematics. Today, no consensus on the definition of mathematics prevails, even among professionals.[7] There is not even consensus on whether mathematics is an art or a science.[8]

A great many professional mathematicians take no interest in a definition of mathematics, or consider it undefinable.[7] Some just say, "Mathematics is what mathematicians do."[7]

JL
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