Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 16361 - 16380 of total 22817 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 27, 2013 - 09:55pm PT
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 27, 2013 - 10:08pm PT

It sounds more to me like you are saying, "No one can get this right."

More precisely, sounds like no one can get it 100% right? We can all gather around, point, and say look The Columbia Boulder. But isn't that so vague..
MH2

climber
Sep 27, 2013 - 10:50pm PT
But isn't that so vague..


Works for me. I wouldn't want to know as much about the boulder as God does.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Sep 27, 2013 - 11:48pm PT
Can you have an honest and real hypothesis there is no way to test the hypothesis?
Or does it then just become a statement..

I missed this Riley. It's a keen question, but . . . .

At first we are very interested in answers. Problems, problems, problems . . . the world seems filled with them, and there seems so much for a person to do (it seems). But after a while, one comes to understand that answers aren't really at issue. Questions seem to matter more. (In a world of equifinality, there are an infinite number of solutions.) Finally, after a great deal struggle with questions, one notices that questions just disappear or become trivial. A person sees them as simple unfoldings, and they just fade away. What is left is only understanding: no acceptance, no rejections. Then freedom emerges.

On the other hand, hypotheses veil visions--like you imply.

The funny thing about a brick wall is that every time, and I mean every time you knock your head against it, it will do damage to your head.

I thought we were talking about consciousness and mind, not physical heads. Running up against a brick wall head first will not affect who and what you think you are. If you change your mind, everything in your universe will change. If you have a head, then a brick wall will probably damage it. (First, show me that head for once and for all.)

How could a brick wall be perceived by someone with functioning sense capability as anything but a brick wall?

Perceptions are real, and they have real consequences. What isn't real are what perceptions are interpreted to be. Those are constructions. (Grab a journal; read all about it.)

These statements appear to conflict.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Consistency (take your pick)

It is only in a logical mind where consistency must reign. Inconsistency, according to Hegel, was an appearance due to an inability to see higher integrations.

If I am inside a building, I may look out at the world through a window.

Imagine you are the window with karmic patterns, there is an infinitely powerful light behind you, and the world is your projection. (cf: allegory of the cave.)

The question again is, where is this YOU of which you speak?

There is no "you." The "you" you speak of is the result of patterns that you've inscribed for yourself. That you, your sense of self, is constructed from your beliefs and the images you hold dear. They don't define you. Those concepts have no center. "You" are just a series of passing thoughts, beliefs, actions, and reactions (watch 'em). In and of themselves they have no identity. All that you think you are is a resistance to what reality really is. You're fighting it (and you're doing a pretty good job, I'd say). Quit grasping and rejecting, and find out who and what you really are. You are not separate from every "thing" you think exists in the universe. If you could see that for just one second, one minute, that world that you think you are in would begin to collapse around you.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Sep 28, 2013 - 12:07am PT
"I thought we were talking about consciousness and mind, not physical heads. Running up against a brick wall head first will not affect who and what you think you are. If you change your mind, everything in your universe will change. If you have a head, then a brick wall will probably damage it. (First, show me that head for once and for all.)"

Running into a brick wall will affect your consciousness as in making it un. Change your mind all you want and your brick wall will still be brick, and you will still have a head, and you will still be damaged. Good luck with this kind of experimentation.
WBraun

climber
Sep 28, 2013 - 12:08am PT
There is no "you." The "you"
"In and of themselves they have no identity."


Straight out of Shankaracharya's Mayavada impersonalism.

He was forced to give this nonsense.

And in the end he revealed the truth about that nonsense because he couldn't stand it anymore and knew the damage it causes.


MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Sep 28, 2013 - 12:15am PT
Fixed forms? To be real an object must be permanent and independent of everything else?

Well, if it isn't then what are you talking about? If one thing turns into another or relies upon another for its existence, then what is the object, really? Something temporary, intransigent, unstable, transitional, only a part, only an element? If it is only an element, then is that element whole? Also no transitory, impermanent, only another part? Is a that temporary thing really part of another thing, and not a thing in itself? Is adolescence another thing than childhood or young adulthood? Are we talking about different beings for every possible transitional stage? How do you slice up those transitional states?

How long does this go on?

Just WHAT is it that you can point to that you think is itself without regard to another other thing? If it is itself alone but must rely upon other things, then how can it be itself? It must only be a part of something else, not itself.

Show me what is and always has been real. Bring out Paul's head. If it has only been real transitionally, then what does that mean? Can things pop in and out of existence?

Is a thing real or not? What is the thing (say what it is without reservation or qualification, finally). Show me its beginning and end, take it out of context, and show it to me alone, solitarily.

So what is REAL? What defines a thing as real? How would I know that a thing is really real unless it were always real? If it's real only for a little while or only under certain circumstances, then it doesn't seem like that fulfills a full-sense definition of "real." Kinda real?

If you are willing to say that a thing can be real only temporarily, under certain conditions or circumstances only, or that every little perceived part or slicing up of any so-called thing is real, then you've opened the door for a great many notions that no one has to buttress empirically.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Sep 28, 2013 - 12:19am PT
Paul are you reading before hitting that post button?

I said if you had a head, then a brick wall would probably damage it.
MH2

climber
Sep 28, 2013 - 12:26am PT
I much appreciate your elaboration, Mike. It is good that you are so generous. I'm just throwing up thoughts. I don't insist on consistency unless I am buying someone's philosophy and the asking price is giving up my own. I am happy to see how you look at things, though.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Sep 28, 2013 - 12:29am PT
Running into a brick wall will affect your consciousness as in making it un[something].

Paul, if this is your idea of consciousness (being awake and clear), then sleep will do the same thing: sleep will damage your consciousness. So will really dark sunglasses at night. So will eating.

I think you have a point in here somewhere, but I'm having difficulty seeing it because I sense you're conflating two arguments or notions.

Are you saying that consciousness is the head or the brain? Or are you saying that things exist outside consciousness?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 28, 2013 - 12:31am PT
I don't insist on consistency unless I am buying someone's philosophy and the asking price is giving up my own.
----


Without refering to old posts, what, exactly, IS your philosophy in basic terms. No need for poetry or long winded stuff or nice photos. Just a few lines of simple exposition.

JL
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Sep 28, 2013 - 12:34am PT
Gotta run, but . . .

He was forced to give this nonsense.

Well, not everyone gave it up, Werner. There are as many paths, I am told. Some don't look right to others. The bohemian Mahasiddhas didn't seem as though they were on noble paths, either.

Certainly I in no position to, say one way or the other. I am just an egg-and probably a scrambled one at that. (I probably need a little salt.)

Cheers.
MH2

climber
Sep 28, 2013 - 12:35am PT
Reality?

Shadows of reality?

Not real?

Reflections on the surface of a wind-ruffled lake?





Seemed real at the time.
MH2

climber
Sep 28, 2013 - 12:38am PT
what, exactly, IS your philosophy in basic terms


My philosophy is that your philosophy is questionable.
WBraun

climber
Sep 28, 2013 - 12:48am PT
MH2 -- "Seemed real at the time."

Yes although temporary. Mike has that right,

Ultimately because it's temporary there's nothing real
because it's not absolute and only an imperfect reflection of the real.

Mike has that right too.

But "Identity" (individuality) is absolutely real.

We observe that everywhere even in the material manifestation.

Individuality and variegatedness ......

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 28, 2013 - 01:12am PT
My philosophy is that your philosophy is questionable.


Unless I knew better I'd swear you were frighted to state you own case.

JL
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 28, 2013 - 03:22am PT
Bravo MikeL! Those were Sweet.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 28, 2013 - 03:28am PT
"Ultimately because it's temporary there's nothing real
because it's not absolute and only an imperfect reflection of the real."

WBraun's temporary absolute and imperfection of the real - given his own words...

Today I'll write nothing...
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 28, 2013 - 11:33am PT
"Ultimately because it's temporary there's nothing real
because it's not absolute and only an imperfect reflection of the real."

WBraun's temporary absolute and imperfection of the real - given his own words...
-

I think what's being said here, Marlow, is that our minds freeze frame reality for us, in little droplets, as Whitehead said, taking no more than Planc bits of time, and we take these literally for the way "things" are, as in "the sky is blue because it is right now and will be tomorrow." But in the grand scheme of things sky, blue, and all the rest arise and fall.

We can insist on a literal translation of material reality, can call any deviance of it an "inconsistency," but such an observation is based on the aforementioned freeze-frame modeling which itself is inconsistent with how things are constantly morphing into something else. Sure, there are laws, but are these "things" in the regular sense of the word? And if so - how?

It's not all so perfectly logical as our minds make it out to be, though there is every reason for us to want it to be.

JL
WBraun

climber
Sep 28, 2013 - 11:52am PT
Modern materialistic lab coats have no clue why the sky is REALLY BLUE .......
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