Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 16241 - 16260 of total 22350 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
MH2

climber
Sep 24, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
You want to know what lies beyond? The nature of god/reality/soul?


Ask me no questions
Silly Heart you'll get no lies
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Sep 24, 2013 - 01:19pm PT
//But you can't do it with your mind (JL)


Can you use your foot?//


Yes, you can use your foot! Your belly, trees, rocks etc. I often ask my foot, what is I ? and it always gives me the correct answer.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2013 - 01:28pm PT
kindly describe you're moment to moment experience, that geyser of sensations, feelings, thoughts, smells, WITHOUT defalting to talking about objective functioning, and saying THAT is experience itself.

JL
why shouldn't I default to talking about the subjective experience?
The experience/reality exists no matter how my brain decides to interpet it
The experince is real, your mind just sends you the signals of whats happening.

It's all real, the mind just takes the pictures and stores them away in the memory any way it wants.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Sep 24, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
Dr. F,

We are seeing the power that spiritualism has on certain people. They have a hole in their heart, and religion is tailor made to fill that hole.

As for this way being THE way or not, when something can't mesh with the facts, people get very upset. Ideology is more powerful than the truth in most people. Anything that attacks their house of cards must be dismissed.

You can really see this over on the climate change thread. Just read the hate going on in that thread.

MikeL was talking about "fully realized" Buddhas a few pages back. How do you know that they are what they say they are? The world is filled with fakers.

I believe that Largo believes in what he is doing. He isn't making anything up, but in the world of spiritual disciplines, it is almost like a Wal Mart. There are so many. Just go pick one off of the shelf and there you go.

I found this on youtube yesterday. This is what can be done with mathematics. It is mindblowing. John Gill should appreciate this, and the code that it took:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2itwFJCgFQ
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 24, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
Yes, if you're searching for a "fully realized" Buddha, and if the teachings of Largo must be heard, it cannot be the Dalai Lama. He is far too scientific.

I think the closest you will ever get to a Wall Mart buddha is Largo.

MikeL is another story. He is far from a fully realized Buddha, but I am willing to admit him a chance... he really seems to be wondering... searching... with a little bit of humility... yes, even a greater humility as time passes by on the Mind and the Science threads...

Just my two cents... spoken from the ivory castle...
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Sep 24, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
The thing is the sensory input of smell, or vision and so on require an experiencer, an arbiter of judgement through which that data can be exploited... the mystery here is the experiencer.

"signatures of all things I am here to read." What is the "I?" How did the "I" come to be?

We are not so much sensory input as we are the arbiters of that input's value: vehicles of experience.

To diminish the "I", the ego, to escape that sense of experience seems impossible to me. Even the delight or pain or whatever of meditation requires, ultimately, a vehicle of experience for its validation.

I don't imagine that we can just stop the world and get off.

PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Sep 24, 2013 - 02:20pm PT
according to the mythology Buddha said: everybody is a buddha, they just don't know it. In other words they/we are so attached to the discursive mind narrative that they/we can't percieve the truth. Discursive mind is not the problem it is being attached to it's narrative that causes the problem . The mind will always be doing it's thing its just whether you have the ability to step back and pick and choose what you thnk is useful or not. That is where the meditation tool comes in handy; it can give you that ability.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 24, 2013 - 02:30pm PT
Between his acts and his ceremonies lies the world and in this world the storms blow and the trees twist in the wind and all the animals that God has made go to and fro yet this world he do not see. He sees the acts of his own hands or he sees that which he names and calls out to the others but the world between is invisible to him.
WBraun

climber
Sep 24, 2013 - 02:34pm PT
To diminish the "I", the ego, to escape that sense of experience seems impossible to me.


Yes exactly.

It can't be done and only fools even try.

Trying to merge into the impersonal Brahmin and become zero (cessation of all activities) is spiritual suicide attempted by the mayavadis.

Even the greatest mayavadi himself (Sankaracarya) said it's just plain stupid and do not even attempt go there.

The symptom of the soul ("I" the ego) is that it is active eternally by its true nature .....

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Sep 24, 2013 - 02:42pm PT
http://www.rinzai-zen.no/

Hey Marlow, what did you find out when you looked into that Zen center just down the road from your house? Now don't tell us you couldn't be bothered to get your own self educated, but you have energy to dash off your comments on this thread. We'e all rooting for you to pull the plug and come what may.

What gives with that. Now get down there and get real, and tell us what we need to know so I can escape this Wallmart.

JL
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Sep 24, 2013 - 02:50pm PT
ZM seung sahn used to compare the ego to a back seat driver. always talking back there telling you where to go, how to feel etc. and if you did diligent practice it would get much more quiet and even it is loud you know it was only the back seat driver. The goal is not to kill the back seat driver just be aware of it.
WBraun

climber
Sep 24, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
The mind is "the back seat driver" not the ego.

The mind is the real false ego always steeped in duality by its nature.

When the mind is controlled by the soul then reality is achieved ......
WBraun

climber
Sep 24, 2013 - 03:01pm PT
This is why hallucinogenic drugs are frowned upon by all true spiritual disciplines.

They alter the mind and you will be at its mercy without true real control .....
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Sep 24, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
Yes exactly.

It can't be done and only fools even try.

Wait. I thought that killing the ego and/or the discursive actions of our minds was the entire point.

I try to pay attention here, and also try to not be rudely dismissive if I can. I've often tried to pay attention to my own mind in order to understand what others are saying. I feel that I have a fairly good handle on it....meaning a certain grasp from the outside. I make no claims to being a spiritual superman.

I'm going to start going to "mindful meditation" classes that a friend of mine hosts in his office in the evenings. Sometimes I work so hard, and get so wrapped up in numbers, that it is hard to shut down the chatter and relax. I have no further hope than it will help with that.

There is exploration of the inside of your mind, and there is exploration of things outside of your mind. I'm curious if a Buddha could design a bridge, or an aircraft carrier. Do you get magic powers or is it all inside the skull?

Please knock it off with the rude and dismissive comments, Werner. You really look like Largo's little pit bull these days. Before you can engage Largo, you have to get through your defensive insults.

It just isn't necessary to behave like that in this group. We are all grownups.

Perhaps we should all get together and meet for a week someday. Josh in winter is good, but I'm too old and fat to climb these days.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 24, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
Largo

I have been outside searching for the "Zen center just down the road from your (my) house". I didn't find it. But I found a lot of apartments, children playing ouside, I found two restaurants, three shops, a bar and a bank. Maybe I just didn't get it - can the bar have been a Zen center in disguise? An old man was sitting outside, undrunk, and an old woman was just passing by. Or have I missed something inbetween?
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Sep 24, 2013 - 03:15pm PT
I only used the "Wal Mart" analogy to point out the diversity of spiritual faiths. We see several different faiths on this thread, but the number of them worldwide is huge. Just look at wars and killing based on the most minor differences in a general faith.

Islam is way too violent for my taste. Go read the Koran. It is very violent. It makes the old testament look like a birthday party.

So Go-B, is Largo going to go to hell over this stuff? What about Werner? They both know about Jesus and apparently have decided to go in a different direction.

Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 24, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
is Largo going to go to hell over this stuff? What about Werner?

I don't know about Larga, but Werner is going to hell.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Sep 24, 2013 - 03:28pm PT
This is why hallucinogenic drugs are frowned upon by all true spiritual disciplines.

This is simply false, Werner. Some of the oldest, most established spiritual disciplines in the world use sacramental hallucinogens.
Peyote, ayuahuasca, amanita, psylocibin.

The really amazing thing about ayuahuasca, which is really DMT as the active compound, is that the vine which contains the active ...well that compound can't really get through your system via the stomach, beacuse your liver puts the MAO to it and it is destroyed quickly before it can reach any concentration in the bloodstream and get to the brain. But there is another plant they mix with it that contains a MAO inhibitor and allows it to get through the liver unaffected.

These people never heard of MAO or any chemistry, yet somehow they figured it out eons ago.

WBraun

climber
Sep 24, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
Go deeper and you will see ......
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Sep 24, 2013 - 03:47pm PT
Base 108 . Don't think or try mediation is to stop your thinking. That is a bad idea and a common misunderstanding of what meditation is about. Most meditaions use some type of concentraion method as it's base (such as witnessing your breath or using a mantra and when you try that you will quickly find you will find yourself off daydreaming about stuff in your life or totally made up stuff. That is a key point in the meditation process; you just recognized that you were following the thinking rather than doing the concentration technique. ( don't label it good or bad just notice it). Now you let go of your story and you go back to the concentration method . You will probably/ typically wander off in the thinking at least 20 times in 20 minutes. So a big part of the meditaion process is noticing you wandered off and then importantly coming back 20 times. One of the most common stories is "i can't do this" let that story go also and just try.

The goal is to just observe or witness. You end up gaining insight in how you have very little control of what your mind does. try to breath into your lower belly it seems to help anchor the processs or provide strength to make an effort.
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