Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 16101 - 16120 of total 22697 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 29, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
Gosh, Marlow . . . I don't even know where to begin with Beckett. He seems to have been a seeker, a sure sighted man, and a deep skeptic with an abiding sense of irony.

He could have been holy man had he perhaps better karma.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 29, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
MikeL
He knew it was a question of going on and of failing better. Well, not that he was too sure... ;o)
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 29, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
You are sort of a fan of Derrida, Foucault, et al., right? That would sure put this thread on a different tack, eh?

Well, er, yeah. I know they both tended over-complicate some issues, but those issues are difficult to put into words, and they are difficult to show with papers (usually calling for a archeological dig into a text). Guilty as charged. I also have soft spots in my heart for others who have tried to swim up-river.

As for where I might have left you, the point is that if things are compilations unendingly up and down, then there is no object, per se. Every object must simply be a compilation of other things in a dynamic state of existence. It might be convenient and even useful to create objects in this way, but we forget that they aren't objects at all. They are more like apparitions. (I don't mean to be stretching language.) That's what I was going for.


Sorry, John.

See? That's why I wrote to you. My error. BTW, I don't mean to be anything here on this thread. I just like the work and the company. I'm working through problems and issues on my own, and you (and the others) are helping. Not all of those problems are about this content.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 29, 2013 - 03:39pm PT
I see what you are saying and in fact always have.
-----


What am I saying, C? Everything you have said so far (about "states," etc.) is not close. And you have never done the simple awareness/attention exercise I suggested. The fact is, you and others are addicted to arguing about this material, but are stuck contrasting the real substance against your own experience per candle gazing, et al. Not what I'm suggesting at all.

What is missing is an honest curiousity, and a conviction that all that is being pointed at is "old news." Of course this is not true, it only, and sadly, points to someone who is simply old and fixed in his ways, sure that they've already seen the show. All of it. And can't be botherd to go back.

But I'm not talking about any of that - of that you can be sure.

But without willingness to encounter something new, it's all for naught. Again, that's betting against yourself, which is somethig you simply don't believe. That much is clear.

As I keep saying, the work is not for everyone, and the surest sign of it is the speculation that "I already know all about it," which is thinly veiled scientism, plain and simple.

JL

WBraun

climber
Jun 29, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
Cintune doesn't know sh!t.

It's a bonfide confirmed fact.

They see everything in the jar and lick the outside instead of tasting the inside.

That's how fools explain how they've done it all.

They've been exposed for their bullsh!t explanations from day one ......
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 29, 2013 - 04:28pm PT
Patito
specialistclimber

climber
Jun 29, 2013 - 04:49pm PT
JL, "the work is not for everybody"?

Maybe too much web with cgi work without other knowledge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven's_Gate_(religious_group)
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jun 29, 2013 - 05:51pm PT
Never said I've done it all. I've done some. It was okay.
But please, do continue to project if that's what you need in this context.
Be advised, however, it is getting a bit repetitive and vapid.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 29, 2013 - 05:59pm PT
The constant throughout is: "I will not change or explore no matter what. You can't make me."

Instead of looking at this like a threat or an order, perhaps accept the challenge as a kind of invitation. Graciously declining is a totally valid and acceptable option and anyone saying otherwise is a zealot.

JL



cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jun 29, 2013 - 07:53pm PT
No objections to changing or exploring. The goal of these exercises so far seems to be about stilling the mind, and observing how hard that is to do. I can dig it. Most especially, and undoubtedly non-uniquely, just before falling asleep, no joke. There's a brief few moments when I'm absolutely not actively thinking about anything, and can just take a backseat as a totally unpredictable stream of images and sounds continually bubbles up with no rhyme or reason. It's not the same as dreaming; I do still have a sense of myself, and I just try to stay poised there as long as I can watching the show, sort of like resting on a steep, dime-edge slab. Next thing I know I wake up in the morning. So my simple takeaway is that the mind will fill in any void it encounters with whatever it can come up with. But maybe there's more to it than that.
WBraun

climber
Jun 29, 2013 - 09:10pm PT
The goal of these exercises

Still licking the outside of the jar and telling yourself what the taste is on the inside without ever opening the jar.

You keep revealing yourself .....

cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jun 30, 2013 - 05:46am PT
Yes. But I said "seems to be," so if that's wrong, go ahead and correct it... or don't.
Satyam jnanam anantam WBraun.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jun 30, 2013 - 07:33am PT
John MacArthur New Testament Commentary John 1-11
John MacArthur New Testament Commentary John 1-11
Credit: go-B
John MacArthur New Testament Commentary John 1-11
John MacArthur New Testament Commentary John 1-11
Credit: go-B
John MacArthur New Testament Commentary John 1-11
John MacArthur New Testament Commentary John 1-11
Credit: go-B
John MacArthur New Testament Commentary John 1-11
John MacArthur New Testament Commentary John 1-11
Credit: go-B
John MacArthur New Testament Commentary John 1-11
John MacArthur New Testament Commentary John 1-11
Credit: go-B
John MacArthur New Testament Commentary John 1-11
John MacArthur New Testament Commentary John 1-11
Credit: go-B
John MacArthur New Testament Commentary John 1-11
John MacArthur New Testament Commentary John 1-11
Credit: go-B
John MacArthur New Testament Commentary John 1-11
John MacArthur New Testament Commentary John 1-11
Credit: go-B
John MacArthur New Testament Commentary John 1-11
John MacArthur New Testament Commentary John 1-11
Credit: go-B
John MacArthur New Testament Commentary John 1-11
John MacArthur New Testament Commentary John 1-11
Credit: go-B


...hell man go to Heaven!
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 30, 2013 - 11:43am PT
Disappointment.

I really wanted to like this commentary in the New York Times this morning.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/29/the-gospel-according-to-me/

Its précis on the Home page promised to expose how new-aged spiritualism spawned popular movements in self-help and authenticity--and an abandonment of Judiac-Christian notions of God.

(Oh, Goody. I like it when someone exposes my foibles and illusions and sets me straight. Besides, it's good training in so many ways. )

No joy. Although it's a minor complaint about design, the article tackles too much. Somewhere around the middle of the article, the authors (2 philosophy profs) shift the article from the mushiness of spiritualism to an almost marxist cultural analyses about how work and nonwork distinctions are breaking down. It's an archetypically American malaise, according to the authors. I don't care so much this latter part of the article.

It's the first half of the article on spiritualism that I wanted to pierce me through and through, but . . . .

It's surprising to me just how close the authors came to making some strong insights, but close only matters in grenades and nuclear weapons. The words in the article seemed somewhat appropriate for the topic (even quoted the Buddha, Nietzsche, Melville, and Shakespeare's Hamlet), but the meaning they exposed was sadly mis-informed.

In no time I came to see what went wrong for them. They really knew nothing at all about spiritualism from the inside.

The article also highlights how intellectuals can be really bright, but very stupid.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jun 30, 2013 - 12:06pm PT
Thru the Bible - Sunday Sermon with Dr. J. Vernon McGee
Why the Gospel is Not Preached Today

http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/thru-the-bible-sunday-sermon/player/why-the-gospel-is-not-preached-today-344987.html


Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

...you can go your own way and call it blunder!
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 30, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
No joy


I agree. Lost interest pretty quickly.

Eckhart Tolle ?


;>\
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 30, 2013 - 06:36pm PT
I'd give that New York Times essay about a C if a student wrote it - no defining thesis topic, no coherent theme, sounds like bits and pieces of several different articles were cut and pasted together, no coherent conclusion of the problem(s), let alone any solutions. It's disappointing that the New York Times would even publish it.

It does bring up an interesting point however, when it notes that the values of the religions of scarcity no longer apply in an affluent society. Those who are well off in an affluent society no longer feel the need for religion (one of the sources of the growth in atheism) but they still seek idealism, in contemporary America's experience, in the form of individualistic self actualization.

In Europe and East Asia, socialistic government has replaced religion and has continued the tradition of communal responsibility for the welfare of everyone. Idealism is then channeled toward making a good society even better, or toward helping other societies improve through thoughtful foreign aid.

American individualism, which once practiced charity as a religious virtue, has little charity left when religion is gone. Hence we exhibit more and more characteristics of a Third World Society. Those at the top, enjoy interesting work and leisure to develop themselves and never notice the shrinking Middle Class who struggle just to survive, let alone those at the bottom. We talk of equality and promote gay rights for example, since so many gay people are successful professionals known to the self actualizers, while unable to identify with the plight of undocumented workers and any kind of immigration reform.

I feel we more resemble India with its spiritually oriented caste system than we do other modern democracies like Europe, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, and Japan, or even the aspirations of modernizing China, Korea, and Taiwan. The problem is a propagandized ignorance of the rest of the developed world, a backward looking frontier mythology unsuited to a modern urbanized culture, and an over emphasis on individualism at the expense of community, with or without religion.

I think this thread has proved that we can not know with certainty, any of the answers to our existential questions or even agree on how exactly we know anything. We can however, if we have the will, come up with observations and solutions to social problems that religion once addressed.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 30, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
Eckhart Tolle ?

I haven't read the guy's books, but I've watched him a few times. I think he's the real deal. He doesn't quite speak to me.

That's the cool thing about . . . religions (lack of a better word that works): you get to choose your own, and there are many out there. If one seeks or believes that there is a truth or that some things are much more "true" than others, then one can find an expression that most suites oneself. It could be fishing, climbing, parenting, reading.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 30, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
I was in a conference on Change and Management at Cranfield in the UK in 91 or 92. At the end of the conference a woman stood up and wanted to know how to avoid mistakes as her country was attempting to implement a new democracy into being. The audience was stunned silent.

The problem is a propagandized ignorance of the rest of the developed world, a backward looking frontier mythology unsuited to a modern urbanized culture, and an over emphasis on individualism at the expense of community, with or without religion.

Maybe so, Jan. I agree with your heart in all of this.

How do you think people learn?

I'd quote something from the Tao on this topic, but I'm sure you know what I'm pointing to. When the Tao is lost to a people, then people create honorable values, righteous and just organizations, and virtuous systems to "fix" those issues.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 30, 2013 - 09:08pm PT
These are problmes for which technology has no solutions. When we look to technology to answer human issues, we get drones, et al. This is not a knock on technology, it's just that it has a poor track record for dealing with our shadow side. These are nuanced subjects.

JL
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