Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 16021 - 16040 of total 22711 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 26, 2013 - 09:26pm PT
Let me get this straight: not only does the individual mind superimpose de novo essences and Platonic categories, of its own choosing ,upon the nonexistent external world,


When I read this I realised you were not reasoning things out or listening to anything but the idea that you have fixated in your mind - that our brains somehow decide how reality will be shaped and project said wraith over the "Real McCoy" like a mascara over Quasimoto. That our brains our just making sh#t up, in other words, when real science can tell you otherwise, right? Just look at the measurements.

In fact there are some nuances at play here and like Mike was saying, you might want to bone up some materials beyond what you already "know" and get up to speed on this stuff. As is, based on you diging your heels into no-man's land, you're basically spinning in place.

JL
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 26, 2013 - 10:56pm PT

How did I know , beforehand, even whilst penning that line ,that this would be the Nehru response.


Nothing here about jackets.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 27, 2013 - 07:55am PT
Way back up thread WBraun used the term "lab coats" as a backhanded reference to those extolling the scientific viewpoint.


I think one of the biggest misconceptions is that in encouraging people to explore past the discursive, we are in fact dissing the "scientific," which is not at all true. The discursive is what gets the majority of things done in the world. The point is you are underutilizing your own resources if you employ the discursive alone. Many people are so in the dark about this that the only "beyond-discursive" kind of sphere they can envision is magic, or hot-tub guru ass kisssing and tree huggers. These are the most fantastic notions.

JL
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 27, 2013 - 08:33am PT
The point is you are underutilizing your own resources if you employ the discursive alone

This I find is true.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 27, 2013 - 09:08am PT
Concepts are needed to communicate until the mind reaches a stage where it realizes that what it seeks is beyond its comprehension
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 27, 2013 - 09:18am PT
http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/24/health/love-psychology-book/index.html?sr=sharebar_facebook

10 things you might not know about love
By Barbara Fredrickson, Special to CNN
updated 5:37 AM EST, Thu January 24, 2013

Making eye contact is a key gateway for love, Barbara Fredrickson says.

STORY HIGHLIGHTS

Love and compassion can be the same

Small emotional moments can have disproportionately large biological effects

Editor's note: Barbara Fredrickson is the Kenan Distinguished Professor of Psychology and director of the Positive Emotions and Psychophysiology Laboratory at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. She is the author of a new book on love.

(CNN) -- In writing the book "Love 2.0: How Our Supreme Emotion Affects Everything We Feel, Think, Do, and Become," here are 10 lessons I have learned:

1. It can be hard to talk about love in scientific terms because people have strong pre-existing ideas about it.

The vision of love that emerges from the latest science requires a radical shift. I learned that I need to ask people to step back from their current views of love long enough to consider it from a different perspective: their body's perspective. Love is not romance. It's not sexual desire. It's not even that special bond you feel with family or significant others.

And perhaps most challenging of all, love is neither lasting nor unconditional. The radical shift we need to make is this: Love, as your body experiences it, is a micro-moment of connection shared with another.

2. Love is not exclusive.

We tend to think of love in the same breath as loved ones. When you take these to be only your innermost circle of family and friends, you inadvertently and severely constrain your opportunities for health, growth and well-being.

In reality, you can experience micro-moments of connection with anyone -- whether your soul mate or a stranger. So long as you feel safe and can forge the right kind of connection, the conditions for experiencing the emotion of love are in place.

3. Love doesn't belong to one person.

We tend to think of emotions as private events, confined to one person's mind and skin. Upgrading our view of love defies this logic. Evidence suggests that when you really "click" with someone else, a discernible yet momentary synchrony emerges between the two of you, as your gestures and biochemistries, even your respective neural firings, come to mirror one another in a pattern I call positivity resonance. Love is a biological wave of good feeling and mutual care that rolls through two or more brains and bodies at once.

4. Making eye contact is a key gateway for love.

Your body has the built-in ability to "catch" the emotions of those around you, making your prospects for love -- defined as micro-moments of positivity resonance -- nearly limitless. As hopeful as this sounds, I also learned that you can thwart this natural ability if you don't make eye contact with the other person. Meeting eyes is a key gatekeeper to neural synchrony.

5. Love fortifies the connection between your brain and your heart, making you healthier.

Decades of research show that people who are more socially connected live longer and healthier lives. Yet precisely how social ties affect health has remained one of the great mysteries of science.

My research team and I recently learned that when we randomly assign one group of people to learn ways to create more micro-moments of love in daily live, we lastingly improve the function of the vagus nerve, a key conduit that connects your brain to your heart. This discovery provides a new window into how micro-moments of love serve as nutrients for your health.

6. Your immune cells reflect your past experiences of love.

Too often, you get the message that your future prospects hinge on your DNA. Yet the ways that your genes get expressed at the cellular level depends mightily on many factors, including whether you consider yourself to be socially connected or chronically lonely.

My team is now investigating the cellular effects of love, testing whether people who build more micro-moments of love in daily life also build healthier immune cells.

7. Small emotional moments can have disproportionately large biological effects.

It can seem surprising that an experience that lasts just a micro-moment can have any lasting effect on your health and longevity. Yet I learned that there's an important feedback loop at work here, an upward spiral between your social and your physical well-being.

That is, your micro-moments of love not only make you healthier, but being healthier builds your capacity for love. Little by little, love begets love by improving your health. And health begets health by improving your capacity for love.

8. Don't take a loving marriage for granted.

Writing this book has profoundly changed my personal view of love. I used to uphold love as that constant, steady force that all but defines my marriage. While that constant, steady force still exists, I now see our bond as a product of the many micro-moments of positivity resonance that my husband and I have shared over the years. This shakes me out of any complacency that tempts me to take our love for granted. Love is something we should re-cultivate every single day.

9. Love and compassion can be one and the same.

If we reimagine love as micro-moments of shared positivity, it can seem like love requires that you always feel happy. I learned that this isn't true. You can experience a micro-moment of love even as you or the person with whom you connect suffers.

Love doesn't require that you ignore or suppress negativity. It simply requires that some element of kindness, empathy or appreciation be added to the mix. Compassion is the form love takes when suffering occurs.

10. Simply upgrading your view of love changes your capacity for it.

The latest science offers new lenses through which to see your every interaction. The people I interviewed for the book shared incredibly moving stories about how they used micro-moments of connection to make dramatic turnarounds in their personal and work lives.

One of the most hopeful things I learned is that when people take just a minute or so each day to think about whether they felt connected and attuned to others, they initiate a cascade of benefits. And this is something you could start doing today, having learned even just this much more about how love works.

Helen Keller
Helen Keller
Credit: TomCochrane
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 27, 2013 - 10:52am PT
Many people are so in the dark about this that the only "beyond-discursive" kind of sphere they can envision is magic, or hot-tub guru ass kisssing and tree huggers. These are the most fantastic notions.

Don't underestimate the degree of resistance to the non- scientific perspective when given certain demonstrable experiences many people have had and continue to have in this regard.

Not long ago I was made aware of an individual who promoted a brand of enlightenment that featured ETs from the Pleiades star cluster . Very nice, honest sounding, decent lady who was here to let us know that Pleiadians were preparing the Earth for its dimensional transformation from the hitherto crude material consciousness to an advanced spiritual state of love and healing and enlightenment.

These ETs are watching us closely and are incrementally prepping us humans for this coming galactic transformation. Apparently even the cells of our bodies are currently in some state of vigorous "bathing in the light". The very advanced Pleiadians were acting as sort of spiritual mid-wives for the human race during this critical passage for our species . They are very altruistic beings who are always bathed in eternal universal love and light; eager to engage humans in a sort of non-material meals-on-wheels outreach.

It appears that these light- beings are also somewhat strapped for hard cash. Being bathed in the dimensional light is not some ordinary cheap amusement park ride. The first series of "light courses" will duly relieve the universal aspirant of $250 smack-a-roonies.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Good post Tom.

When a youngster on the way to school , in Tuscumbia , Alabama we would walk by Helen Keller's family home , where the real life events depicted in " The Miracle Worker" took place.
Not far away, in Florence, were a few of the ancient haunts of WC Handy, known as the 'father of the blues'. In some parts of town his music could always be heard on warm summer nights.
In Sheffield the legendary Muscle Shoals recording studio where Wilson Pickett, Percy Sledge and Aretha Franklin recorded some of their early hits. (Where Percy Sledge recorded: " when a Man loves a woman")
All of these small towns were clustered together in a quad- city area in northwestern Ala.
Many of my mother's family populated a rather dark and mysterious place along the big river folks around there called " Buzzards Roost"
Anywho...

Magical place to spend some childhood. Fishing off the banks of the Tennessee River.
Soon thereafter we moved to Monterey, CA. LOL( culture shift)

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 27, 2013 - 11:30am PT
...and how does one draw a line?

A '73 Pontiac Firebird driven at high speed into a [supposed] immovable 'object' usually does the trick nicely.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 27, 2013 - 11:42am PT
A '73 Pontiac Firebird


The 74 Firebird Espirit that Jim Rockford ( James Garner) drove in "The Rockford Files"

Credit: Ward Trotter
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 27, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
. . . a brand of enlightenment that featured ETs from the Pleiades star cluster .

Do you believe anything that people tell you? Do you believe your own experience? Can you tell the difference?

I don't think you're really applying yourself analytically to the issues, Ward. I think you're just writing whatever comes into your head without much consideration. It is, however, dramatic.

A '73 Pontiac Firebird driven at high speed into a [supposed] immovable 'object' usually does the trick nicely.

This hardly deserves the time to write an answer, so I'll let another person do it for me.

"One prominent physician of his day claimed Berkeley was
insane. The great Dr. Samuel Johnson dismissed Berkeley's ideas with
his famous "I refute Berkeley thus" and then he kicked a rock. Of course,
this did not refute Berkeley at all. It only proved Johnson had not
understood Berkeley's point. Berkeley did not claim the non-existence of
stones or that kicking a stone will not produce sensation. He claimed the
rock did not exist apart from the perception of its solidity or the
perception of pain when struck, and so on. An oft-repeated epitaph
summarizes the general reaction to Berkeley: 'His arguments produce no
conviction, though they cannot be refuted.'"

http://dangerousidea.blogspot.com/2010/11/i-refute-berkeley-thus.html
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 27, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
summarizes the general reaction to Berkeley: 'His arguments produce no
conviction, though they cannot be refuted.'"

This about sums up the peculiar brand of existential solipsism routinely aired on this thread.
With the exception that it most definitely can be refuted.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 27, 2013 - 02:24pm PT



Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 27, 2013 - 03:37pm PT
Not long ago I was made aware of an individual who promoted a brand of enlightenment that featured ETs from the Pleiades star cluster .


Not too long ago, some prof from Salt Lake City claimed to have carcked cold fusion in his garage. We don't write off "science types" because of a few odd balls. What's interesting is how you are so drawn toward frauds and fakers like our cold fusion shamer and ET peddler.

Did you read comic books growing up?

Perhaps you haven't noticed that you refute the very things most of us refute, then direct your refutations at us?

Profesional help might be indicated . . .

JL
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jun 27, 2013 - 03:41pm PT
John,

How can you tell the difference? That is a serious question, and it has bugged me regarding religion for most of my life.

The Bible is pretty clear on this matter. Their way or the highway....to hell. I find the entire idea of hell barbaric.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 27, 2013 - 03:49pm PT
This about sums up the peculiar brand of existential solipsism routinely aired on this thread.


Any port in a storm, eh Ward?

With the exception that it most definitely can be refuted.

Perhaps you could grace us with the refutation?
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 27, 2013 - 03:55pm PT
Base: which question?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 27, 2013 - 04:28pm PT
John,

How can you tell the difference? That is a serious question, and it has bugged me regarding religion for most of my life.
--
BASE, if this was directed to me, I don't claim to know anything about religion. What made you think I did? I'm always surprised at what people come up with here.

JL
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jun 27, 2013 - 04:30pm PT
Not too long ago, some prof from Salt Lake City claimed to have carcked cold fusion in his garage. We don't write off "science types" because of a few odd balls. What's interesting is how you are so drawn toward frauds and fakers like our cold fusion shamer and ET peddler.

Mike. The question posed above. How am I supposed to know which religion to follow? Who is the fraud and faker? How can I possibly tell the difference between a real prophet and a false prophet?

The bible talks about false prophets. The Book of Mormon covers false prophets far more than the bible.

Most of the Christians I know consider Joseph Smith a false prophet.

Islam considers Jesus to be an important prophet, but not the son of God.

Why do people pray to Jesus rather than directly to God? My Methodist family says grace to God, prefaced by, "In Jesus' name we pray..."

This has always bugged me. If I had been born in a small village in Saudi Arabia, I would be a muslim. If I had been born in a small village in India, I would be Hindu. If I had been born in China, I would be an atheist.

So much of this is tied into social factors, but I haven't heard a Christian discuss it other than talks about religion with my dad, who is always willing to talk about the hard problems.

Christianity has really changed since I was a kid. Many new churches are in shopping malls instead of stained glass cathedrals.

I urge any of you with cable to watch Joel Osteen preach from his mega-church in Houston. His message is that if you do things right, God will reward you with riches in this life. That goes against everything I know about Jesus. The bible is pretty tough on the rich.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jun 27, 2013 - 04:33pm PT
Does anyone want to understand how we know that the earth has a liquid outer core? It is very simple.
splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Jun 27, 2013 - 04:37pm PT
How can I possibly tell the difference between a real prophet and a false prophet?

> their prophecy's always come to pass.

a real prophets prophecies are correct 100% of the time. they were stoned to death if any of their prophecy's were false, bitd.

edit: reason being, if they are true prophets, they are hearing directly from God. and, He never lies or changes His mind in these regards. "God is not a man that he should lie...nor a son of man, that he should change his mind."
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