Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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WBraun

climber
Aug 26, 2013 - 04:17pm PT
reductionist means cessation of material activities, almost nil.

HFCS = hypocrite

HfCS = more and more material, increasing.

No wonder you are stooopid .....

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 26, 2013 - 04:26pm PT
Any piece of technology we can reverse engineer back to a dude.

The "dude" being a chimp or human or even a bird. Maybe even a romulan or vulcan or their equivalent somewhere else.

.....

Btw, nothing scares me more nowadays than middle-aged white Christian Republican politians in leadership roles. Already saw three in a row on cable news today criticizing Obama either for dithering or for "leading from behind" in the Syrian civil war.

I'm a middle-aged white guy, they sure give my demographic a bad reputation. :(
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 26, 2013 - 04:41pm PT


When I was nine years old
Way back in Ohio
The hired man was digging up a well
On my father's land
He found a fossil there
It was a massive bone
And since then I’ve known
That a race of giants lived in the northern hemisphere
Ten thousand years ago they lived right here
It seems incredible
But yet it's the truth
That a fossilized and petrified
Calcified primeval brute
Was turned to stone
But he was not alone
There were hundreds of them walking on the sands of the river
Even giants think they'll always live forever....
The bible speaks of this
There were giants in our midst
But they slaughtered one another in a meaningless war
Thank your lucky stars that we don't do that anymore
That gravel-encrusted skull
That was found on the river shore
Double rows of very sharp teeth
The massive jaw measured twenty-five feet
Well it's turned to stone
There were hundreds of them walking on the sands of the river
Even giants think they'll always live forever
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 26, 2013 - 06:06pm PT
Actually, Fruity, reductionism is intimately connected to causation. The assumption is that the present can be "reduced" to prior or antecedent "causes" or factors that "created" the present. Owing to random and chaotic factors in the mix, we cannot PREDICT the outcome of things all the way down the line, but we could "reduce" the present to the past if we knew what factors were involved after the fact.

If you don't accept the causal connection of reductionism, then you have things arising from nothing, from no previous factor, and that can never jibe with as mechanical view of reality.

So no matter how you fumble your explanation of reductionism, you cannot escape the two centrqal benchmarks of the term, as it is commonly used in both science and the philosophy of science:

A: That "a complex system is nothing but the sum of its parts, and that an account of it can be REDUCED to accounts of individual constituents." And:

B: "Reductionism strongly reflects a certain perspective on causality. In a reductionist framework, phenomena that can be explained completely in terms of relations (i.e. "causes, factors and influences") between other more fundamental phenomena, called epiphenomena."

Often there is an implication that the epiphenomenon exerts no causal agency on the fundamental phenomena said to explain it. This is clearly not so in human beings, because we can think about a climb and get sweaty pamls, even if said palms are hairy as Fruitcake's.

Also: Reductionism does not rule out emergent phenomena (such as "mind" leaping off the meant brain like a Hawaiian hula dancer), but it holds to the belief that the ability to understand emergent phenomena rests completely in terms of the processes from which they are composed. Hence the inconrovertible causal connectdness between emergent qualities and the so-called "fundamental phenomea," which is always matter.

A more enlightened view to 'emergence' is that what emerges is more than the sum of the processes from which it emerges, is more than it's parts. And then further on down the line, coming to understand there are fundamental aspects of reality like consciousness and possibly gravity that are not "created or influenced" by matter but are part of the fabric of things. Of course none of this can find play with a physicalist, who seeks to REDUCE and dumb down all things material and otherwise to to "fundamantal phenomenon," thereby tying itself to a rigid causal chain of events, from the fundamental on up. There is no escaping this.

So while you might do-se-do on and on about reductionism, Fruity, if you would have taken some courses on the material instead of just reading pop neuroscience books and Zap comics, you would know the simple facts of the very material you continually and handsomely butcher.

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Aug 26, 2013 - 06:13pm PT
So no matter how you fumble your explanation of reductionism, you cannot escape the two centrqal benchmarks of the term, as it is commonly used in both science and the philosophy of science

wtf are you talking about? Do you read others' posts for comprehension, meaning, or just hopscotch the words.

Remember which of us has an engineering degree, eh? Regarding your first two paragraphs, you're preaching to the choir.

Remember it was my love affair, yeah you could call it that, with how things work, with reduction and construction, with causality (aka causation) that inspired me to take an engineering path for 8 years, it wasn't just dreams of a career, doofus.

This time I won't even read your remaining paragraphs, it's a waste of time.

P.S.

It's truly a wonder how, once upon a time, you could've written How To Rock Climb with such organization and clarity given your presence on these threads going back three or more years now.

You're truly out of your league. What's more, at this choss pile, YOU are the poster child for arrogance, narcissism (to which you refer so often), egomania who seemingly, strangely, doesn't know he's run out, overexposed, falling...

Disappointed. :(
WBraun

climber
Aug 26, 2013 - 06:45pm PT
HFCS admits he's out of his league here.

HFCS also admits he's a poster child for arrogance, narcissism and egomania.

Time to take your vacation, fruitcake .......

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 26, 2013 - 07:27pm PT

Remember it was my love affair, yeah you could call it that, with how things work, with reduction and construction,

. All acquired through a hard-won science education. Proud!

Obliviously when you love Things, and all puffed up and proud of yourself. It's hard to tell when someone is actually trying to help you.

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world-the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life-is not of the Father but is of the world. And the world is passing away and the lust of; but he who does the will of God abides forever.
1 John 2:15
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Aug 26, 2013 - 07:31pm PT
This thread is truly a wonder to behold. Sophomoric psychological babble punctuated by weird comments. It emerges as less than the sum of its parts.


But it does entertain.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 26, 2013 - 07:33pm PT
What did you expect, jgill? That the Taco Philosophers would come to some conclusion that 10,000 years of society have failed to grasp?

DMT
WBraun

climber
Aug 26, 2013 - 07:39pm PT
jgill -- But it does entertain.

It has to entertain!

This ain't no stinkin labcoat forum ........
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 26, 2013 - 07:57pm PT
Hey, I'm actually tryig to stay on track per the terms that Fruity lobs out there. I'll admit to pulling his chain with know-it-all tone harangues but that's the fun of it, the entertainment. But for real, he says I'm "mixing (mechanistic) reduction with data (info) and prediction, which only makes a mess of it."

The fact is, if Fruity or anyone else here ever bothered to look at how "reductionism" is actually defined in both science and philosophy of science, it is not something applied to a static thing, but refers to the process of things through time and space. And in that process, there is no separating out causalty from mechanistic factors. Fruity wants to cling to a strict mechanistic model because if the whole is no greater than the parts, then he can keep saying that mind is what the brain does. There isn't anything beyond the meat. Mind, ergo, IS meat.

However when you introduce causation into the mix, married to a mechanistic view of things, you have to be able to reverse engineer all phenomenon to antecedent or fundamental properties (this is what Ed was saying about all reality being physically based - yu can work your way backward from complex to fundamental and you will always arrive back to matter, the thinkign goes). And in the case of mind, that means we have to be able to follow the causal chain down to the very moment and link where mind emerged from matter, and that's where it gets "messy" to use Fruity's term, because we can't do so.

You have to be a little crazy to find this stuff interesting, but if you can follow the logic of it all, a mechanistic view of the world MUST be sequential. Random and chaotic factors chip in but they do so with mechanical precision. The only other option is that we can arrive at a place in time and space UNREDUCABLE to prior physical causes and/or influences and factors. That would mean that rather than tied to the past by way of a mechanical - causal chain, at least some events would be singularities, in a sense. And Fruity ain't going there.

That much said, this is the most dysfunctional thing on earth but in fact I respect everyone weighing in. We all are trying to find out what is true. And that's a good thing. We might make a stink of it here but I'll bet no one on this list is causing the kind of harm in the world that makes us cringe. We're bickering. People are gassing each other in Syria. And that is tragic.
JL
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 26, 2013 - 11:16pm PT
Don't look now, but the quantifiers have breached the gates:



http://blog.bufferapp.com/how-meditation-affects-your-brain
MH2

climber
Aug 26, 2013 - 11:28pm PT
FörtMental

Social climber
Albuquerque
Aug 27, 2013 - 02:43am PT
Don't look now, but the quantifiers have breached the gates:

Yes, they have. But it's already been years since the pocket-protector gang have been able to consistently replicate one of the fundamental tenets of spiritualism: the "out of body" experience. No drugs, no near-death experience, no meditation. Just a simple EMF wand held near a specific part of the head. Works every time.

Next up....the voice of God.
FörtMental

Social climber
Albuquerque
Aug 27, 2013 - 07:25am PT
Random and chaotic factors chip in but they do so with mechanical precision. The only other option is that we can arrive at a place in time and space UNREDUCABLE to prior physical causes and/or influences and factors. That would mean that rather than tied to the past by way of a mechanical - causal chain, at least some events would be singularities, in a sense. And Fruity ain't going there.

No....no....nope.... and...... no.

There's nothing precise about evolution and there's nothing about the mind and consciousness that can't be reduced to the random mix-master that is evolution and chance exploited. Even Classicists are beginning to see the evolving id-ego-super ego in ancient texts and art works. You may think that this evolution is the product of learning and culture, and in some cases, it might be, however, an inevitable random genetic mutation got the ball rolling. It happenes a billion quadrillion times per minute, but until the right time and place comes along, it can't be exploited. Things don't just appear out of nothing. Unless you're a cosmologist.



Thank you for playing.....please try again.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Aug 27, 2013 - 12:08pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#318268
photo not found
Missing photo ID#318269


Psalm 95:1 Oh come, let us sing to the Lord!
Let us shout joyfully to the Rock of our salvation.
2 Let us come before His presence with thanksgiving;
Let us shout joyfully to Him with psalms.
3 For the Lord is the great God,
And the great King above all gods.
4 In His hand are the deep places of the earth;
The heights of the hills are His also.
5 The sea is His, for He made it;
And His hands formed the dry land.
6 Oh come, let us worship and bow down;
Let us kneel before the Lord our Maker.
7 For He is our God,
And we are the people of His pasture,
And the sheep of His hand.

Today, if you will hear His voice:
8 “Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion,
As in the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 When your fathers tested Me;
They tried Me, though they saw My work.
10 For forty years I was grieved with that generation,
And said, ‘It is a people who go astray in their hearts,
And they do not know My ways.’
11 So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’”



...you guys out of breath yet, enter God's rest!
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Aug 28, 2013 - 09:33am PT
Matthew 11:27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. 28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Aug 28, 2013 - 09:37am PT
Trolling through prayer, lol.

DMT
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 1, 2013 - 03:38am PT
"Anabel Hernández had to leave early, as so often, "to finish an article", and it was after she left that gunmen burst in. "Pointing rifles at my family, walking round the room – and taking wallets from people. But this was no robbery; no one tried to use any of the credit cards – it was pure intimidation, aimed at my family, and at me." It was more than a year before the authorities began looking for the assailants. And during that time the threats had continued: one afternoon last June, Hernández opened her front door to find decapitated animals in a box on the doorstep.

Hernández's offence was to write a book about the drug cartels that have wrought carnage across Mexico, taking some 80,000 lives, leaving a further 20,000 unaccounted for – and forging a new form of 21st-century warfare. But there have been other books about this bloodletting; what made Los Seńores del Narco different was its relentless narrative linking the syndicate that has driven much of the violence – the Sinaloa cartel, the biggest criminal organisation in the world – to the leadership of the Mexican state.

Her further sin against the establishment and cartels was that the book became, and remains, a bestseller: more than 100,000 copies sold in Mexico. The success is impossible to overstate, a staggering figure for a non-fiction book in a country with indices of income and literacy incomparable to the American-European book-buying market. The wildfire interest delivers a clear message, says Hernández: "So many Mexicans do not believe the official version of this war. They do not believe the government are good guys, fighting the cartels. They know the government is lying, they don't carry their heads in the clouds."

Anabel Hernández's book will be published in English this month with the title Narcoland: The Mexican Drug Lords and their Godfathers, so that we in the English-speaking world that consumes so much of what the cartels deal, and which banks their proceeds, might learn the lie of "cops and robbers", of "upright society versus the mafia" – the received wisdom that still contaminates coverage of drug wars and the "war on drugs".

Two writers in particular have been pioneering the struggle to counter this untruth: one is Hernández, and the other is Roberto Saviano – author of Gomorrah, about the Camorra of Naples – who writes in a foreword to Hernández's English edition: "Narcoland shows how contemporary capitalism is in no position to renounce the mafia. Because it is not the mafia that has transformed itself into a modern capitalist enterprise, it is capitalism that has transformed itself into a mafia. The rules of drug trafficking that Anabel Hernández describes are also the rules of capitalism.""
FörtMental

Social climber
Albuquerque
Sep 1, 2013 - 04:53am PT
contemporary capitalism is in no position to renounce the mafia. Because it is not the mafia that has transformed itself into a modern capitalist enterprise, it is capitalism that has transformed itself into a mafia.

So depressingly true, on so many levels, everywhere. And it's only getting worse.

Just heard an interview with a Henri Lefebvre biographer/protege. Stunning stuff outta that guy!
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