Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 15761 - 15780 of total 22779 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 15, 2013 - 04:22pm PT
70% of American ADULTS believe in Angels

50% believe the Earth is less than 10,000 years old

someone explain just how this America got to this point?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 15, 2013 - 04:48pm PT
someone explain just how this America got to this point?

People are bound to believe in all sorts of things, some true -some false.

You yourself believe in things that are demonstrably false. You wouldn't be human if you didn't.

The fact that many scientists , engineers, and outside contractors at NASA during the 60s were born again Christians , for instance, in no way impeded their ability to put man on the moon.
Nor did the fact that most of the framers of the Constitution were Christians or unaligned theists -- did not preclude them from crafting a brilliant national founding document.

Many people who fervently believe in what you or I might consider outlandish are nonetheless decent, good people , who are productive, hard working, honest, and even brilliant.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Jun 15, 2013 - 05:12pm PT
You yourself believe in things that are demonstrably false. You wouldn't be human if you didn't
I await your demonstration.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 15, 2013 - 05:17pm PT
I await your demonstration.

If we were to do a minute objective analysis of Norton's belief system, whatever that is, and my job were to demonstrate something incorrect or false, and your job would be to demonstrate that Norton is flawless-- who do you think would win that one, boss?
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Jun 15, 2013 - 05:27pm PT
a minute objective analysis hardly sounds like an "obvious and provable manner"

What does Dr Ed believe in that is demonstrably false? He's human, right?
Donini?
Mighty Hiker?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 15, 2013 - 05:38pm PT

What does Dr Ed believe in that is demonstrably false? He's human, right?
Donini?
Mighty Hiker?

This is one point you will just have to trust me on.
You got your seat belt on?

Okay here comes:

Dr. Ed, and the others are not perfect. There are things these individuals believe in that are wrong.
The only other option is the opposite, namely, Dr.Ed is perfectly right about everything. He is flawlessly right about all existence. Ergo he cannot be proven demonstrably wrong about anything. I won't even try.

Hopefully Dr. Ed can fetch himself to this thread and start reiterating his beatific infallibility --provided he is available at this moment.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Jun 15, 2013 - 05:42pm PT
That's a good point, but I feel your choice of the word demonstrably is a bit strong.
Indulge me:
ask Norton questions about his beliefs until you can demonstrate one is false.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 15, 2013 - 05:46pm PT
ask Norton questions about his beliefs until you can demonstrate one is false.

ya know, I have been feeling pretty stupid after others so effortlessly understand how there is little evidence that beliefs influence consciousness and what we do, if I even paraphrased JL correct

the reason I am not getting it must be because I am using the conventional definitions for "beliefs" and consciousness, and you guys are using some language way past my intellect
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 15, 2013 - 05:48pm PT


Indulge me:
ask Norton questions about his beliefs until you can demonstrate one is false.

I don't have the time nor the passion.

Besides that sounds like something right up WBraun's alley.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Jun 15, 2013 - 05:57pm PT
If you had made the statement about Wbraun, I would have agreed with your choice of words.
MH2

climber
Jun 15, 2013 - 06:45pm PT
1. Ask anyone, to include yourself. "Are you conscious?" A yes or no will do. There's no reason to define it. Everyone pretty much knows what you're talking about. If for some reason you find that too complex of an idea, ask them if they have awareness. That'll do.


Then consciousness is not "the hard problem" of Chalmers. JL please take note.



2. Prove that anything exists other than, "I Am" without a scintilla of a doubt. If you can't do that, then what you have is a belief.


Can you prove that "You are" without a scintilla of a doubt?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 15, 2013 - 06:49pm PT
that beliefs influence consciousness and what we do, if I even paraphrased JL correct
-


I never said that beliefs don't influence consciousness, though I would have used the word "behavior," which is radially shaped by our beliefs. Trying to live in a way that is not driven by beliefs is feared by most who feel
we will revert to animistic and pre-caveman depravity. The fundamental nature of being sentient might not change much by what we believe, but those beliefs are huge factors in our lives, pro and con.

I'd be intgerested in hearing how you might define consciousness.

JL
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 15, 2013 - 07:45pm PT
Many people who fervently believe in what you or I might consider outlandish things are nonetheless decent, good people, . . . .

And everything that they know and believe could be right, and all that for you could be wrong. You have no way of knowing other than experience, and the experience you have is greatly limited.

Can you prove that "You are" without a scintilla of a doubt?

I can prove it to myself. There is No doubt. I imagine that everyone hear can prove it to themselves without any effort. It's the only thing that is self-obvious. (Perhaps you did not see my posting of Descartes' writing on the subject up-thread? His writing is very clear, and his argument inescapable.)
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 15, 2013 - 07:50pm PT

I'd be intgerested in hearing how you might define consciousness.

The 64 million dallor question. I'd begin with we have our self conscious. Then we have our social conscious. In my self conscious there seems to be a ping-pong match going on between what I know is true, and how I want to use that to predict what kind of emotional outcome I'd wish to recieve. Now you could say this is all happening in my head. But if you listen to ur conscious close enough. You'll hear the arguement going on between the logical, correct path to take from the brain, and the spiritual path that makes you feel good. This decessionmaker is what I feel like is my conscious.
MH2

climber
Jun 15, 2013 - 07:59pm PT
I can prove it to myself. There is No doubt. I imagine that everyone hear can prove it to themselves without any effort. It's the only thing that is self-obvious.


I was hoping that you had a proof. What you are talking about is more in the nature of an axiom. You take it to be self-evident. It is not a proof. There is more than a scintilla of a doubt as to its truth if you can only prove it to yourself! Please show your work.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jun 15, 2013 - 08:08pm PT
Subjectively, you can declare yourself anything that you think you are.

If you get crushed by a rock, what is your perspective on self and the nature of change, after being treated in such an objective manner ?

MH2

climber
Jun 15, 2013 - 08:12pm PT
I rock, therefore I am.




Wait a minute...


What is this "I" that I am talking about? It seems to precede the rock. If it came before the rock, why do I need the rock to demonstrate that I am?
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Jun 15, 2013 - 08:49pm PT
bibo ergo sum

I drink, therefore I am.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 15, 2013 - 09:09pm PT
The "rock" has a parameter. That's why it is that specific "rock".
"The rock" is in your parameter. And, in "Our parameter". your own self's parameter is within yor body. Yourself understands there's "do's and dont's" for the well being of said body.
But shite happens..

What was the question again?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 15, 2013 - 09:35pm PT
Oh yea,
why do I need the rock to demonstrate that I am?

Or, am not? When that rock smashes you, your I am becomes, I was.

But you don't need a rock to demonstrate the fact that you are an I am.
The fact that you can sit there and meditate and go against the discursive mind,
demonstrates your I am.

Termed; I deny myself.
Messages 15761 - 15780 of total 22779 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews