Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 14, 2013 - 10:30pm PT
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 15, 2013 - 12:23am PT
OK again Mh, Thanks. being more specific;
"give me some water WITH FISH IN IT."

But I definitely would here that music when reeling in a 3 inch Brown, or a 3 ft Chinook.





Edit: and I aint scared of no vampires+
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 15, 2013 - 12:52am PT
If
You
Don't know
Where ur gO'in

Any road will get you there...
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 15, 2013 - 12:54am PT
Discipline yourself,

And others wOnt need to
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 15, 2013 - 01:03am PT
Just heard those on Charlie Rose, interviewing Don Rumsfield.

Charlie Rose for Prez. 2014.

I know it's supposed to be 2016 but we need a change now.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jun 15, 2013 - 04:38am PT
Genesis 4:1 Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, “I have gotten a manchild with the help of the Lord.” 2 Again, she gave birth to his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of flocks, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3 So it came about in the course of time that Cain brought an offering to the Lord of the fruit of the ground. 4 Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the Lord had regard for Abel and for his offering; 5 but for Cain and for his offering He had no regard. So Cain became very angry and his countenance fell. 6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.” 8 Cain told Abel his brother. And it came about when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.

9 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?” And he said, “I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?” 10 He said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to Me from the ground. 11 Now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. 12 When you cultivate the ground, it will no longer yield its strength to you; you will be a vagrant and a wanderer on the earth.” 13 Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is too great to bear! 14 Behold, You have driven me this day from the face of the ground; and from Your face I will be hidden, and I will be a vagrant and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.” 15 So the Lord said to him, “Therefore whoever kills Cain, vengeance will be taken on him sevenfold.” And the Lord appointed a sign for Cain, so that no one finding him would slay him.

photo not found
Missing photo ID#306896

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old gained approval.
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. 4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.

..."the power of prayer is in the One who hears it", Amen!
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jun 15, 2013 - 05:21am PT


You're not only a sage, Cintune, but a clairvoyant, LOL, insofar as I haven't yet described what these exercises actually are.

Okay, so far you've trotted out a few Zen 101 worksheets on observing and trying to quell one's own wandering thoughts, following the breath and whatnot. If you're ready to move on, I'm all ears.

And so far as ever saying exactly what you mean, and truly meaning what you say, you simply must be that dusty old rummy who the Red Man once referred to as having a "forked tongue," meaning no sober person would ever know for sure what you really felt or mean or want or know. What's more, there seems a vast amount of insincerity in looking at any of these issues beyond a strictly surface kind of silly game.... when the lampooning insinuates that you understand the subject matter intimately, and that it's "all old news," when in fact your are a totaly pretender per this material, then an otherwise bit of clowning around starts smelling of fraud, ill-will and posturing.


I'm always sincere and bear no ill-will; I love this thread and all the people in it, and I say what I'm thinking. Maybe you could try to cultivate a greater tolerance for ambiguity. Don't see how this should be a problem given your professed stance on the nature of reality.

I invite you to ask one honest question about any so-called spiritual or subjective adventure, dealign with something for which you are honestly inerested, and for which you have no understanding and no "right" answer already in your head.

Okay, how bout this: Why do we each personally choose to believe whatever we believe?
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 15, 2013 - 07:14am PT
Why do we each personally choose to believe whatever we believe?

Karma.

Or . . .

Education, institutionalizations, socializations, experiences, groupthink, escalated commitments, sensemaking, habituations, typifications, characterizations, projections, rationalizations, denials, delusions, fantasies, imaginations, aggressions, intellectualizations, dissociations, displacements, repressions, subliminations, suppressions, anticipations, conversions, distortions, complexes (inferior, superior), immaturity, wishful thinking, idealizations, somatizations, withdrawls, social comparisons, identifications, introjections, introspections, suppressions, etc.


Seeing reality just as it is, is darned near an impossibility.
MH2

climber
Jun 15, 2013 - 07:27am PT
Seeing reality just as it is, is darned near an impossibility.


We agree. For one thing, you would need to be a telepath. And when you tried to read your own thoughts there could be some weird trouble.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 15, 2013 - 09:17am PT
John GF: My next move, errrr, my last move, was something my science friends that I carpool with put me up to. They swore that no science type would ever ask a question on this thread. Rather they would just pot shot at things. The reasons they put forth were very intersting to hear - them being Caltech science doods of the most hard core variety.

Anyhow, Cintune actually asked a kind of question, i.e., why did he personally choose to believe what he belives.

From what I understand, there is little evidence in most people's lives that they ever made any conscious choice about what they believe. Most beliefs accrue from experiences. If even a beautiful girl is rasied by shitheels who call her stupid and ugly, she will believe this heart and soul. If a person gets bitten by a dog early on they will consider all dogs dangerous at a pre-verbal level.

IME, what makes many internal paths so interesting is the injunction, drummed into us from the start, that the work is NOT about beliefs whatsoever. None. That the straight path is to forge ahead believing nothing at all. Of course no one can do this perfectly, and we all rebelled at first as though the teacher was insane. It took a long time to realize the point that what we wanted to belive, for whatever reason, was the biggest detriment to experiencing reality as "neat" as we possibly could, lest when we encountered massively counterintuitive things such as - emptiness is form, and form is emptiness, exaxctly - our beliefs wouldn't hinder our undertstanding. And then whatever understanding we had, to let that go so something else could arise. Through an ongoing process of settng the reset button, so to speak, the water will hopfully get a little clearer.

JL
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 15, 2013 - 09:30am PT
Perhaps you've seen this.

http://www.simulation-argument.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nnl6nY8YKHs

Nick Bostrom published a paper wherein he argues that there is a chance that we are all simply a part of a simulation by an advanced technologically mature society that has the capability to simulate consciousness. It's an intriguing argument. Bostrom says we show sufficiently increasing interest in simulations (movies, novels, stories, video games) to imagine that at some point, we could (project far enough in the future) simulate a consciousness through some kind of mindlink technology with massive computing power and digital memory. Then a civilization might have an interest in "ancestor simulations": living a conscious, make-believe life (Blade Runner, The Matrix, Total Recall, Vanilla Sky, Abre Los Ojos, Dark City, etc.).

This could make it possible that your thoughts and memories are not yours, that you are not who, what, when you think you are. You may not be the species you think you are or may not have any organic basis at all. You may not have ever exercised free will or thought your own thought. Someone just called up a file, pushed play, and viola: your personal reality. To simulate more efficiently, there might be only one file so that different files don't have to interact with each other. Hence, it could be possible that there is only one simulation, that there are different simulations all running the same file, that experience is only 18 seconds long constantly running in a loop, or perhaps "you" just came to on-line to consciousness a second ago (and all your memory has been programmed). You simply have a cable connecting you (whatever you really are in some world) to a media player: that would be Descartes' Evil Demon.

Not that I believe this, but it's an attempt to show you what the paradigm shift is in a way that might allow you to see it.

All you know is your own consciousness. The rest is belief.
MH2

climber
Jun 15, 2013 - 09:48am PT
All you know is your own consciousness. The rest is belief.


That's your belief. A lot of our disagreement has to do with words. English and other languages have ambiguity. When you say 'consciousness' you do not bother to define what you mean. You have to assume that someone else makes a reasonably good guess about what you are talking about. Consciousness is a term we use for a whole constellation of observations. When we compare observations we can get closer to a mutual understanding. You need a process for making comparisons. You need something like observation, hypothesis, testing.

To say that all you know is your own consciousness leaves too much unsaid. To say that the rest is belief also says too little.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 15, 2013 - 10:01am PT
When we compare observations we can get closer to a mutual understanding. You need a process for making comparisons. You need something like observation, hypothesis, testing.
--


Assuming that this is an "inside job," that we're not going to try and guess what's going on in the playhouse by studying the architexture, so to speak, where do you suggest we start in terms of observation?

JL
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 15, 2013 - 10:03am PT
From what I understand, there is little evidence in most people's lives that they ever made any conscious choice about what they believe.


wow, that one just floored me, John Long

honestly, I have always thought the opposite in that ALL people made conscious choices based upon what they do believe, yet you say there is little evidence they do so

John, please elaborate so I can better understand?
J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jun 15, 2013 - 10:25am PT
Lots of standard everyday choices are just done automatically
after learning. Like driving a car fast in heavy traffic and ignoring
the risk to yourself and others. A fairly standard choice made by f^cktards we all see everyday on the road.

Climbing is also a choice, although some get into a zone where the choice would be to stop climbing. It has a look. Sometimes its looking back at you from the mirror.



cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jun 15, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
It has a look.

MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 15, 2013 - 02:20pm PT
Good lord, it's not complicated or difficult.

1. Ask anyone, to include yourself. "Are you conscious?" A yes or no will do. There's no reason to define it. Everyone pretty much knows what you're talking about. If for some reason you find that too complex of an idea, ask them if they have awareness. That'll do.

2. Prove that anything exists other than, "I Am" without a scintilla of a doubt. If you can't do that, then what you have is a belief.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jun 15, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
Depends what you mean by "prove," dunnit?

Most things are proven by consensus. Of course if you pull the rug out from under perception itself, nothing can be proven, but in that case you're just imagining that you're reading this anyway.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 15, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
I guess I was thinking scientifically for this group. But if reality-by-consensus is what rules here on this thread, then I have nothing to say and no point to make. You can disregard.

EDIT: Next time we can just conduct a poll and find out what reality is.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jun 15, 2013 - 03:09pm PT
Exodus 3:14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
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