Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 15541 - 15560 of total 22772 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 10, 2013 - 03:55pm PT
Cintune, humor is key. So is fierceness. Both blow out the chaff. I never take this stuff or myself nor anyone else too seriously. Easy does it. My only refrain is: If you want to know about the play, you have to go inside the playhhouse and watch the whole damn thing unfold. You can tell a whole lot from outside, about the outside. But you have to see and hear and live with the play itself, not just the script, or the architecture, to get jiggy with the shebang.

I really think that having some metaphor for practice is helpful. Mine changes month to month. Lately I've been using the idea that every time (and I've been going to the zendo morning and night lately), I sit and let myself die to all my desires, thoughts, and beliefs. It takes an enormous amount of fortitude to just be with your immediate experience, which leaves us wide open and vulnerable, as opposed to jumping into thinking about it, which closes up down and foists us into a much safer and more secure feeling mental space.

It takes most of us a very long time to understand that what we are trying to find is nothing more than being present. We spend ages trying to figure out stuff or following our thoughts. Chasing our tails. Running in place.

JL

go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jun 10, 2013 - 04:11pm PT
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jun 10, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
Jockrates walked up to Glib Frankfurter the salesman and said, "make me one with everything".

He handed a 20 over and was delivered some spicy sustenance. Then he waited.

"Hey Frankfurter, where's my change ?

"Change can only come from within"...

May I rot in philosophy for dredging that old chestnut up.
 Jim

There are no limits to quantifying anything, be they scientific, philosophical or spiritual. To do so would mean there is a limit to intelligence and understanding.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jun 10, 2013 - 04:35pm PT
Nice one Jim, pass the mustard!
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jun 10, 2013 - 05:17pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#306344
It must a been the hotdog!

WBraun

climber
Jun 10, 2013 - 05:22pm PT
That's some heavy projection Mark.

What you did not see in this thread is that Ed by his own admission actually agreed to what Largo wrote below in quote.

Ed then ... deleted his agreement statement.

And Ed, you have been lampooning and trying to stonewall all of what we've said - from pissing on so-called "masters" to calling all subjective disciplines age-old "revealed wisdom" to serving up half-baked philosophical renditions (or determinism, for example) and have repeated insisted that quantifying objective reality is the only real game in town, all others being the silly games of those lacking the brain power to do the heavy lifting. By your own admission you have done none of the subjective work whatsoever and yet you insist you have some privileged understanding of it believing as you do that the subjective is merely the bastard stepson of the grand pappy, the physical. In short you have learned nothing from anyone but quantifiers on this list and have not budged one inch from a staunch physicalist position because we have come up with no physical evidence or discursive paradigm that will convince you otherwise. As though something as unique and slippery as consciousness can be so easily framed. There is nothing remotely the equal or which has any likeness to subjective experience in the universe. And yet when we go into the realm so many of you keep backpedaling back into objective functioning insisting that the supposed physical basis of something is the exact equal of something else. This is insane, really, because if nothing else, it tries to totally dismiss the only reality that you ever live as a human being - and that is your subjective experience. This is not so much insane, as it is sad, because you are missing such a great and fantastic piece of the puzzle, which at the same time refusing to move out of your comfort zone for fear of seeing an expanded view of reality as you now understand it. At the bottom, what we are really up against here is scientism. I've said that all along. That is a safe view of the world because it believes that only the physically tangible and measurable is real, but it forces you into absurd positions like insisting that an objective physical process IS a subjective experience. As thought this were a distinction so subtle that it could be lost on otherwise intelligent men and women. To anyone who has any experience in subjective adventures, these arguments are absurd. But as I have said, the only people calling me full of sh#t are those who have never gone there. That part, and perhaps only that part, is not in dispute.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 10, 2013 - 05:48pm PT
BASE, it's all intentional, pestering and lampooning you. Arrogantly sticking pins in the evaluating bubble. It's an old Renzai trick for shattering pride and rigidity. The rancor you are feeling is the same we all felt when first working on the whole "Mu" question. Each tradition has a threshold and in Renzai, it is "What is Mu?" You will drive yourself crazy trying to discursively figure out what it "means," while clinging to discursive reasoning like a life raft. Once you gfive it up, even for a second, and realize you will not drown, your off to the races. In the meantime the "problem" will always lay "out there," with someone else. You're actually a perfect candidate for the work. But at the same time people will peck away at that pride like so much birdlime till eventually you just burst out laughing, not at anyone "out there," but at the absurdity of clinging to a lead weight.

Does discursive reasoning have a valued place in the world. Of course. If I didn't value it I wouldn't have ever tried to codify technical conundrums like anchors and so forth. But one size doesn't fit all.

Reminds me of this:

In his biography of Samuel Johnson, James Boswell tells of a
long night in the tavern when the good doctor and his intellectual
drinking buddies argued through the night about whether a horse gets
to its feet in the morning front feet first or hind feet first. The
debate was as spirited as the libations, and the late night and early
morning hours were filled with sophisticated arguments and references
to knee anatomy and centers of gravity.

When someone pointed out that the sun was about to rise and
suggested a trip to the nearby barn to settle the question by
observing a horse, the gasps and protests were immediate: no 18th
century intellectual and gentleman would set foot inside a barn! If a
question couldn't be settled by reason alone, it was not worth asking.
They all went home to bed with the issue unresolved.

The point is to find out, yhou hae to go into the barn.

JL
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 10, 2013 - 06:29pm PT
Now to get some idea what is actually going on in your mind, rather than trying to analyze things for the inside, you first have to sit with yourself just as you are, and watch and watch and watch some more till you can start getting a clear view of what your mind is doing, and what is involved. We all go into this work thinking we "know" all about how our minds work, and we are shocked to discover we are totally clueless because most of us have never actually just been with ourself without our monkey mind distracting us like a rock track in the BG.

You can get an idea about this process by considering that unlike discursive work, learning about your our mind from the inside is not helped much by whatever people have to say about it. There basically is no guidebook about how to do this work, though there is plenty of clues about how NOT to do it - like the totaly bankrupt policy of thinking about your thinking, which is a beginner's trap that gets us all. So if you have no guidebook and have no idea what is going on in your very own mind, save for your thoughts, quite naturally you'll have to spend a good long time simply observing so you can start to identify what this raging mental and visceral current is doing inside of your head.

The first breakthrough is usually when people wake up to the fact that for at least a brief flash, they were actually witnessing their own process, instead of being fuesed to or lost inside of it, which is the opposite of mastery.
JL

So we can experience things we can't describe, so what.
This changes nothing for us.

Some of us have already done these things you tell us to do, and in the end, it was nothing more than "a warm fuzzy feeling",
sure we may have come up with some new knowledge or wisdom, but can it be the only goal worth pursuing?

Is there anything more?
maybe, but maybe it doesn't matter.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 10, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
At the most, I call you an arrogant person, ready to make the most personal insults, while at the same time cloaking yourself in some sort of position of authority, which presumably gives you the feeling that your insults are OK. You are, after all, the famous John Long, and that comes across pretty thickly to us who converse with you.

Well said Base
Largo has brutally insulted me over and over, he even called me autistic, which is way below the belt
I can take it, but I sure as hell tell you this,
Largo can't take the criticism he deserves, I won't even say it here


Maybe I will say it some other time

But of course I am glad that he posts here
as I said over and over, debate the subject, not the person
unless that person is just posting stuff too stupid to not have something to say about, they have be accountable for their posts, otherwise, they get the abuse they deserve.
WBraun

climber
Jun 10, 2013 - 07:18pm PT
Cry us a river Dr F.

You insult Intelligence itself .........
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jun 10, 2013 - 07:19pm PT
Is discursive reasoning a lead weight or an avenue of enlightenment ?

What goes on in the mind as proffered through reason and also subconscious mobility both have an indisputable role in the survival of life.

Here's a story to throw into MH2's campfire of experience:

Don Serl and I where at wit's end after thrashing down 3000' of bush in the dark after taking a wrong turn descending Mt. Johannesburg in the Cascades.

Our reward was a raging creek at valley bottom to cross and 2 miles of logging road back uphill to his car.

We should have camped, exhausted right there, for the night. But no! like all people we felt guilty and duty bound about making it back to work Monday morning. What a f*#king mistake.

So we drove. We drove out a logging road in the North Cascades thinking we could get all the way to Vancouver by shear will power.

"Jim, turn the wheel hard left, now " came through clearly to my sleeping brain as I wandered the road face down at the wheel, going 30 MPH.

BOOM!

I became really awake watching a mail box fly over a shattering windshield and a fence get eaten under Don's car. The real business was the wood from the power pole driven into the joint between the front tire and it's wheel and the same wood stuffed into the gap between the front passenger fender and it's door.

After dissipating inertia,we came to a stop. The farmer came out and said, "It's a bad road, this happens a lot." He then offered the grace of having us spend the night in his camping trailer on his property. Thanks man !

I would like a physical explanation for what demanded I turn the wheel before a head on crash into a telephone pole. Maybe I was half awake, I'll never know.

All I could think then and think now is that I should be dead and responsible for Don asleep in the back seat, being dead as well. I have no explanation for why this isn't so. It's not reasonable. I was out cold and fully asleep at the wheel.

Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 10, 2013 - 07:22pm PT
Has Werner ever had a post that said something positive, or provided some wisdom or information that we can enjoy. NO
it's all been negative, I guess that's where he dwells

He has nothing but ill words for us
We are all stupid in his mind, yet he won't even tell us what he believes, because he knows he can't defend it, he read it all in some book long ago, and then filled in the cracks with his own soulman mysticism,
it only makes sense to him. He is an island barking at the passing ships.
It's comical really.
WBraun

climber
Jun 10, 2013 - 07:36pm PT
He is an island barking at the passing ships.

LOL, good line ......
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 10, 2013 - 07:41pm PT
BASE, it's all intentional, pestering and lampooning you. Arrogantly sticking pins in the evaluating bubble. It's an old Renzai trick for shattering pride and rigidity. The rancor you are feeling is the same we all felt when first working on the whole "Mu" question


Hmmm . . . I wonder where we all signed up for a course in Renzai?

I don't think I did. But BASE may have.

I don't think I need a course in Renzai. I'm way too old, and would strike back if provoked, rather than humble myself to achieve Nothing. And the "intentional pestering and lampooning" should be reserved for those who signed on the dotted line.

If this isn't religious proselytizing I don't know what is.

Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 10, 2013 - 07:52pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jun 10, 2013 - 08:39pm PT
Well said Base
Largo has brutally insulted me over and over, he even called me autistic, which is way below the belt I can take it, but I sure as hell tell you this,
Largo can't take the criticism he deserves, I won't even say it here it's too brutal.


Hypocrite. The biggest one on ST. You got em ALL beat Craig. "Too Brutal". What a sham. Unless anyone is 100% with you, they are insulting you. Brutally at that.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 10, 2013 - 08:45pm PT

. It is little wonder that we have difficulty hearing or talking to one another. At least the conversations (discussions?) have provided the greatest distinctions without wallowing in the personal (religious) baggage associated with our youth.

I'd have to say I like asking people about their childhood. I feel that I dont know where their going without knowing where theyve been. Especially in the manner that they argue.
I don't think people change much after they blossom. Approximately age 7. They might know more at age 70, but the characteristics are much the same.

All I mean is, we are delt a hand at birth that we must play out..
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 10, 2013 - 08:48pm PT
You got that right Chief!!
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 10, 2013 - 09:04pm PT
Note that most every one of these posts is about what a low-down scoundrel I am and a religious salesman pandering "nothng at all," but all I have really said was that the discursive mind is not the end all and that anyone insisting that it is lacks the experiences to know otherwise. Imagine if someone didn't know a single thing about rocke science but had some ideas on tghe subject, based on their own experience, and posited these as viable, and got bent when people called bullsh#t.

While the attacks on the messenger have been legion - Craig has said that every spiritual seeker from the beginning of time is full of sh#t and deluded, but that's not poor form, rather "the truth" - how many people have made any effort to set aside the discursive long enough to see what was left? Granted the work is not for everyone. Not by a long shot.

It is clear that most people have no idea whatsoever that there is more involved here than Craig's "fuzzy feelings." Again, where is the willingness to find out? When I say some people are being dishonest in this regards this is based on a few simple things: Claiming an interest in this material while doing no more than arguing about it; claimming the sum and substance of subjective adventures is totally knowable by way of discursive modes, having never traveled into said adventures; having gained little ground in subjective studies and universalizing this to mean that anyone suggesting that progress can be made is a charletan and wampum peddler. If someone said, "I have no idea whatsoever about any of this and couldn't care less," you simply let those people live their lives. The people who hang on and argue but for various reasons are either frightened or can't muster the gusto to venture into the dark, sparks are sometimes needed to start the fire.

A lot of the staunchest critics of all of this are actually the best candidates for the work. I think at least some of them realize this, if only vaguely.

Just note how unbelievably difficult it is for people to change tracks, even an inch. Conditioning is one of the quirks of being human. Outrage is a portal in.

JL
MH2

climber
Jun 10, 2013 - 09:12pm PT
Thanks for that story, Jim! Stuff happens that we cannot and should not explain. Any explanation simply would not be an improvement. We need mystery. No one is going to explain Bob Dylan to my satisfaction. Any attempt would be beside the point.

I especially like the hospitality you were shown after the crash. I've been there, too, and it makes you more willing to help others when the need arises.
Messages 15541 - 15560 of total 22772 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews