Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jul 25, 2013 - 04:55pm PT
the more you try and boost their material away from the subjective, the less fruitful it will be.

This is manifestly true of one of the main intellectual currents of that period in the late 19th early 20th centuries, namely, a sort of secular Gnosticism in which the true nature of things was assumed to be buried just beneath the surface of observable reality. The world was seen to be a place where both secular and sacred truths (I.e. nouveau sacred) were hidden somewhere slightly beneath the objective surface of perception, behind a dark curtain. The universe was a camera obscura of something deeper, something more instrumentally and mysteriously deterministic ; and could be unravelled only by varieties of arcane knowledge, or specialized insight, or secret initiation into a way of thinking or acting that would duly unlock the fundamental truth of life and the nature of things. A ongoing broad- based revivalism of sorts was occurring .

Spiritualists like Madame Blavatsky come to mind. Yet even Freud , to some extent Jung, and even Einstein were seen as types of Wizard of Oz, or even as modern secular shamans, so to speak. As were most scientists of that period.

If I might indulge in a little hypothesizing here and suggest that this intellectual current, it's links to the faddish subjectivism and occultism of the period, and its out-fall in the popular mind of the time ,were the direct result of the psychological and philosophical impact of scientific discoveries which were absolutely bewildering in their influence upon society in general. To say the least.
Today we have come to take them for granted. But can you imagine in the early 2oth century ,when many people were still getting around on horses ,suddenly being told that the physical universe operates in ways totally outside the observational purview of ordinary garden- variety perception and common sense --as Relativity and the other astounding revelations of science were then beginning to establish.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 25, 2013 - 05:05pm PT
and JL replied to Marlow with:

May 28, 2012 - 01:36pm PT
Marlow, I am going to flame you every time out because your are an easy mark because you take it all too seriously. Did it ever occur to you that I am intentionally assuming an evangelistic - sartorial tone simply to sound pompous and to c*#k around with this material. I never even revise this stuff. I'm just mostly free associating. Now when you hit your stride with that faux professor tone, you simply cannot expect not to told not to return to your corner with the pointy hat because it's not all that serious.

it is getting difficult to know if any of this is to be taken seriously

but if I read the word discursive again my head will explode..
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 25, 2013 - 06:06pm PT
Marlow, what I suspect you and many others want is a rigid, deterministic world that we can consider in strictly literal terms. If something changes, even slightly, then the thing can be thought to have lost it's true identity (being one thing) and to have forgotten it's stripes.

Fact is, the life we actually lead is not a thing but a process. But this is not acceptable to most of the foggies on this thread, who come apart when things don't stay selfsame. Ergo when I tease Marlow for being Marlow then come from a place of conviction the old Norge is thrown for such a loop he must muster proof of my crimes. But one thng is for sure: Marlow will not change or grow one bit. He will stay the very same. That's the unconscious point of spinning on the presentation, and never delving past the veneer. Dive boy, and report back to us. Then yo can be of some real service to this thread, instead of just jogging in place.

And of course this is a circular thread. It can be no other way when people are given a million new doors to explore and they refuse every one of them - and believe this virtuous and rational and scientific blah blah blah. They literally are people climbing the same pitch day after day after day.

And Ward, don't be too in love with your take on the subjective as some cloudy, acracne nebulae requiring special handshakes and horse heads to get a hold of, the implicatioln being we need to get back to the sound stuff of measurments to find the solid ground. You're guessing again about the terrain, or taking the world of 19th century folk. Better to consider what you don't know, what you'd like to know, and posit a few questions. Dredging up 1890-era, western takes on subjective hogwash serves no purpose I can see. Where's the valor in blasting the Madame Blavatsky's of the world?

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jul 25, 2013 - 06:25pm PT
And Ward, don't be too in love with your take on the subjective as some cloudy, acracne nebulae requiring special handshakes and horse heads to get a hold of, the implicatioln being we need to get back to the sound stuff of measurments to find the solid ground. You're guessing again about the terrain, or taking the world of 19th century folk. Better to consider what you don't know, what you'd like to know, and posit a few questions. Dredging up 1890-era, western takes on subjective hogwash serves no purpose I can see. Where's the valor in blasting the Madame Blavatsky's of the world?

This is a rough example of wearing your philosophy on your sleeve. Or on your shoulder.
My description above wasn't a critique of subjectivism as such, despite the fact that Madame Blavatsky was more than once seen sporting a Nehru jacket, long before it was cool.

"...Chickenheads to get hold of..." would have been a far better phrase.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Jul 25, 2013 - 06:34pm PT
It can be no other way when people are given a million new doors to explore and they refuse every one of them...

This sort of thing confuses me. Christianity is a door. Am I supposed to wholeheartedly embrace it to find it's deep meaning and true-ness? Or can I just think that it, like every other ancient religion, is about mystical prophesies and control of the masses? Is it a door or just the painting of a door on a brick wall?

I could try meditation. It is a door that I dabbled with for a few minutes once without ever walking through. It was interesting to induce vertigo in myself to the point of feeling like I was spinning around in circle while sitting still.

But there are then 999,998 doors left. There is no time to explore them. Like any person, rational or not, I would have to look at the sign on the door, make a judgement call, and them move on. A few seconds at each door will cost me an eternity in mortal time.

But the whole exercise is probably pointless. We do what our parents taught us or we are led on a different path by cosmic force and end up with some belief system. JL did it. Go-B did it. I did it. The only difference is that some will accept feelings as truth and some will demand specific empirical statistical reproducible proof.

I will repeat that. The only difference between JL, Go-B, me, and others is that some will accept feelings as truth and some will demand specific empirical statistical reproducible proof.

We are otherwise the same. Our brains are either cells or spirit but we are all the same. We ALL reject just about every one of those millions of doors. Or has Go-B and JL decided to look at science and accept that maybe the only truth is what can be proven scientifically and all else is made up human garbage. Nope, they have not, even while preaching that others are closed minded.

Yes, the whole thing is circular. Condemn the other guy for what you yourself cannot do. It goes on.

Dave

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 25, 2013 - 06:49pm PT
I will repeat that. The only difference between JL, Go-B, me, and others is that some will accept feelings as truth and some will demand specific empirical statistical reproducible proof.


Dave, what ever in the world gave you the idea that what I was talking about had anything whatsoever to do with "feelings?"

Your response is what I have refereed to as dishonest because you posit it as a know fact but it is the wildest speculation. For someone steeped only in measuring, truth can only be the result of measuring. This is what you believe. It in no wise makes it true. And the difference between what Go-B and I and Mike and Jan are talking about are as vast as the diference between objective and subjective.

Yes, there are a million doors, but what the real question is, and has always been, is behind one door maked "Who are we?" We can try and objectiy ourselves from the outside, and we can learn a lot of useful information. If that information is enough for you, great.

But here and there you will find yourself at the brink of that huge swirling vortex we call subjective life, the one that threw Dave into virtigo. Some of us will ask: I wonder what goes in there. Really. Beneath all the feelings and thoughts and memories and sensations and content. How might I possibly proceed?

Plain and simple - that's the million dollar question, and it's one that can never be answered from the outside, anymore than we can know about a climb having never seen it or never climbed it. You need specific empirical, experiential proof. Statistics will avail you no ground whatsoever. None. That's for another realm. If it worked in the subjective we would have used it long ago. Of that you may be sure.

The temptation is to project all kinds of fatuous things into the vortex, like Dave did with his "felings." But if you'll notice with the folks on this thread, a step into the vortex itself is explained away a thousand different ways. But verily, that step is never taken. And that's a shame.

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jul 25, 2013 - 07:26pm PT
But if you'll notice with the folks on this thread, a step into the vortex itself is explained away a thousand different ways. But verily, that step is never taken. And that's a shame.

To my way of thinking this sentiment represents an evangelical subjectivism that puts the non-believer on the clear defensive and is therefore about as popular as a toothache in a Sees candy shop.
The non-believer is by turns an old fart whose failure to embrace this bag-o-pills is not only unfortunate but downright pathetic..

Furthermore, by cutting off the subjective arena of experience from the normal , naturally -based ways in which the validity of ideas and experiences are assessed and processed is the primary reason why this particular pitch is not gaining any traction, resulting in the potential novitiates getting off-schedule.
"Just trust me" the ad man pleads.

It is not the fault of the people on this thread, nor is it the intransigence of their beliefs, nor their age , nor any of the unconvincing, glancing evaluations thus far proffered.

The ad hominem drift is two- sided, which I accept and understand, kinda like a fire burns hotter when 2 logs are side by side than one alone.
When the language becomes extreme ,and differences are not mitigated with a little good-natured humor ( as I did with the Nehru thing) then people become defensive.
Who can have a conversation about the history of ideas with anyone who immediately goes on the offense and defense simultaneously in a frantic need to protect their territory and advance their pawn?


.
.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 25, 2013 - 07:51pm PT
To my way of thinking this sentiment represents an evangelical subjectivism that puts the non-believer on the clear defensive and is therefore about as popular as a toothache in a Sees candy shop.

The non-believer is by turns an old fart whose failure to embrace this bag-o-pills is not only unfortunate but downright pathetic..


This is where you have it entirely wrong, IMHO. The above posits the subjective and any subjective adventures as a kind of "belief," or some far-fangled reality that lies outside of our normal purview. Some "way out" vista reserved for hippes and dreamers dissassociated from the nuts and bolts work of measuring and evaluating.

But the fact is, Ward, you and everyone else are always tettering on the brink of the subjective vortex because that is, inescapably, where we all live. We are first and formost subjects of our experience. When we make our rational minds the primary focus of our experience, we can construct wonky divisions between our objective lives - whereas "we" are bio machines that we can objectify from the outside with statistics and probablilities - and the actual, down to earth, subjective and experiential lives we actually lead which keep on keeping on no matter what we think or feel or do.

"Evangelical subjectivism" as Ward calls it is simply me reminding you that you are tottering on the brink of the subjective vortex, and that you have nothing to fear and much to gain if you take the counterintuitive step to embrace it from the inside. It's right there in your face every breath you take. It is inescapable. It is not somethig you need believe in and it will never go away so long as you are alive.

Meanwhile people cling to the discursive like a life raft, tottering on the brink of the subjective and projecting all kinds of things into the heart of their very own experience, but rarely if ever taking a step in that direction save for narrow focusing on "things."

It's fine if you're on the defensive. That's the point. You're defending your right to keep yourself out of the vortex of your actual life. I don't blame you. But on some level it actually is pathetic that we don't at least work the fringes of what you wake up with and fall asleep with every day of your life: Your subjective core.

What is it? What lies in there? How do things arise in my awareness? What is awareness and how does it work in my actual experience? What is greater than the parts? What the hell is really going on inside of me?

If I am accused of being an evangalist by bringing attention to the whirling center of our lives, so be it. But leave off insinuating that what I am talking about is some distant land found in Wu Wu. It's nothing more than what gave Ward Trotter vertigo form the sheer vastness of the borderless terrain.

As the saying goes: How you ain't gonna never be curious 'bout your own life, Holmes? Not the life in yo' head, but the one you be livin'.

JL
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jul 25, 2013 - 07:56pm PT
This sort of thing confuses me. Christianity is a door. Am I supposed to wholeheartedly embrace it to find it's deep meaning and true-ness? Or can I just think that it, like every other ancient religion, is about mystical prophesies and control of the masses? Is it a door or just the painting of a door on a brick wall?

For me, Christianity is accepting what God and Jesus say about themselves in the bible!

Like in any "Good Book" or movie you have to be drawn into the story!

I couldn't think up how God is depicted in the bible myself - holy, just and forgiving!

And come up with a way that He stays true to and not deny Himself?

Well by His infinite mercy and wisdom He sent His Son Jesus to satisfy all His righteousness!

And He has all bases covered, by giving us an undeserved clear conscious now and eternal life at the

resurrection, a win win I'd say!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 25, 2013 - 08:52pm PT
and what would be this thread's reaction IF I posted about my ATHEISM with the same joy and frequency that Gobee does his about his god and bible?

out of the blue, just ramble on about what my "non belief" in gods has meant to my life?

I would be attacked for.......well, for somehow,,,attacking the god believers

even though that would be neither the words or the intent

no one attacks Gobee, in fact he is welcomed here with much tolerant good will

how about Werner Braun?

when, again, out of the blue and without any prior posted provocation, he feels the need to inject his own god is all wonderful and we all are stupid for not digging god as he does routine

but no one dare attack, or question, or call him "stupid" as he does others on multiple threads, the Great Rescuer Braun, because many leap to his defense as if he is sacred and kiss his ass righteously

I think individuals' status or pecking order has a lot to do with what is both said, and not said

cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jul 25, 2013 - 10:05pm PT
Word. All too human.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jul 25, 2013 - 10:53pm PT
go-B, that last one was my favorite writing from you yet! Thank You.
___

Norton, same to you!

out of the blue, just ramble on about what my "non belief" in gods has meant to my life?

I for one would be very interested to hear a honest view of an atheists take on life. I wouldn't attack you but I'd sure have some questions.
Dr. F.

Boulder climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 25, 2013 - 11:44pm PT
BB
The transformation to atheism is truly a freeing experience

For the very first time, you feel totally free
no one looking over your shoulder, no judgment, no need to satisfy some conditional unknown, or conform to some unnatural mind state of fear and guilt.

No purpose, no ultimate goal.
no reason Not to live your life like you never did before, with new purpose, a state of just being alive.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jul 25, 2013 - 11:55pm PT
Dr. F.:

Freedom is a paradox and an illusion. As long as you Think you are free, you aren't because of the very thought of freedom. To be completely free, one must give up freedom in all its forms.

IMO you're confusing yourself by tying freedom to choosing. Choice entails restrictions. If you didn't have to make any choices, then that would be freedom.

How about a baby step towards freedom? Give-up that thing that you think is You, and you'll find more freedom than what you could have with it. (Think about it.)

The Chief

climber
From the Land Mongols under the Whites
Jul 26, 2013 - 08:52am PT
Ya'll THINK way too much. Stop thinking and start living. Now.

Dump the ego, tell that inner voice to stfu and take today as if it is the only and last day you have.

Do that daily and your lives will become so much more meaningful.

Now is all each and everyone of you have.

Stop and smell them flowers. The flowers that you all were too busy thinking about to realize that they ALL been right in front you the entire time.

Fact.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jul 26, 2013 - 09:51am PT
Dr. F. how free are you...

photo not found
Missing photo ID#312948

If God is anything He is love...

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. 19 We love Him because He first loved us.

20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.

5 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

6 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

...and may you be found in the love of Christ!
MH2

climber
Jul 26, 2013 - 10:23am PT
Ya'll THINK way too much. Stop thinking and start living. Now.


That's what Archimede's Mom told him.

Thinking can make life MORE meaningful, not less. No different than smelling flowers.

Too often, people let thinking get the better of them, but we should all do a little of it.

I believe our Mom's would want us to look both ways before crossing a busy street.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 26, 2013 - 12:15pm PT
Given a hard choice, I will take reason, thinking, and the oh so deviled "discursive" mind over meditation, spiritualism, and intuition all day long.

I have yet to read of any advantage that has over discursive other then what... better relaxation?

Patience, waiting, and waiting for thousands of posts to get to the beef, and there isn't any.

Go ahead, criticize me for relying on my life's "experiences" as opposed to the non-discursive







locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Jul 26, 2013 - 12:18pm PT


...




Credit: locker
...




Dr. F.

Boulder climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2013 - 12:27pm PT
IMO you're confusing yourself by tying freedom to choosing.
MikeL.

No confusion here, it's not a choice, it's a freedom from an mental overburden.

The only choice is choose the overburden of something above you,
or choosing to reject it as delusion.

Being free of delusion is a choice, but the confusion does not lie there.
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