Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Jul 24, 2013 - 07:16pm PT
What your problem is, I trust, is you're not used . . .

It seems it's always others who have the problems . . . such is life on this thread


Style (Webster's): "a characteristic mode of expression or action."

And, yes, it requires an act of will if it is not required to accomplish an athletic feat. IMHO MikeL is referring to a more metaphysical interpretation of the word.

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 24, 2013 - 07:26pm PT
It seems it's always others who have the problems . . . such is life on this thread


Exactly. But it's important that "problem" in this sense is not seen or felt as an existential value judgement, but rather an experiential problem, or challenge. To wit: If someone has never bouldered, it would be hard to discuss the fine points, which largely rest on direct experience. In that case, bouldering would have to be discussed as a concept, and in the real world bouldering is a life experience.

Venturing past the discursive mind is an experience, not an idea or a concept or belief. For someone not accustomed to that terrain, it is a "problem" and a first rate challenge to try and get some notion of the terrain, so to speak, as you're using discursive language to try and wrangle the hyper-discursive. And this can at best only be an approximation, and a really vague and sketchy one when seen from without. People are left to start guessing what their minds say it must be like: inutitive, feelngs, et all. But these are all projections.

JL
MH2

climber
Jul 24, 2013 - 08:28pm PT
People are left to start guessing what their minds say it must be like: inutitive, feelngs, et all. But these are all projections.


It might be better to only call them guesses and leave psychoanalysis out of it.


Or are you counter-projecting?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection


Jung writes that "All projections provoke counter-projection when the object is unconscious of the quality projected upon it by the subject."
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jul 24, 2013 - 09:31pm PT
. . . you're not always conscious about what you want to achieve when you change style, which might leave you in confusion. Maybe you are a true searcher.

Thanks, Marlow!

I use whatever works. I don't make those decisions consciously. I used to back off from anger, thinking that it was an indication of immaturity, uncontrolled passion, or an insensitivity to people's feelings. Nowdays, I don't see any disposition that way. All serve purposes. I've even walked out of class when my students were not prepared. I love people in my heart, so what shows up in and from me is the best that I can do.

As they say in consulting, "I may be wrong, but I am rarely in doubt." :-)


Jgill:

I'm not clear what I mean. I've been reading up on aesthetics, and I'm not finding what I'm looking for. Maybe style is not the right word. Fluidity, or being at-one within a situation, might be closer. Again, being . . . not doing. It's the dance that I'm trying to point to. When the subject and the object drop off, there is only the being. Doing simply takes care of itself.

"Deprivation [a route on Mt. Hunter, Alaska] taught me about the existence of this mystic path in the mountains . . . . How can I be tired while climbing on the mountain when I have become the mountain? I have searched within myself through both passive and active meditation, for the tools to open this ‘door’ whenever I will it. I still search." (Twight, 2001: 147).

(I'll take it back. I'm not sure that Will what separates the drive for achievement from style. I'm confused with my articulations.)

Right now, this style vs. achievement thing is a project for me. I'll be teaching a business ethics course later this summer to grads, and I'm searching for a way to express what I've been seeing. What I want to say is that an orientation to achievement (financial objectives, doing) in business is ok if done properly, but a focus on style (how one manages / leads, being) would be better (assuming that one can achieve objectives).

We are all born into our lives as givens. They are our destinies. It's *how* we live our lives that matters. It's not what we kill, conquer, create, or control--other than ourselves, perhaps.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 24, 2013 - 09:33pm PT
It might be better to only call them guesses and leave psychoanalysis out of it.
--


I don't know enough about psychoanalysis to "include" it in anythig I'm saying.

My point, simply, is that when any of us are left with the impossible task of trying to describe someplace where we have never been, we will perforce "project" whatever we imagine based on our past experience and conditioning, what we've heard and believe, and so forth. The main point is that these projections are not based on any empirical or experiential data. We are, in a real sense, simply guessing. IOWs, I'm not using projection in an antique Freudian sense whereby as a defence to untoward feelings and attributes, a person projects these onto someone else.

If yuo want to look for unconscious triggers and drivers (what drives behavior) here, look at all the looping around people do, the unconscious plan being that we never move beyond the discursive, and instead spend all kind of time spinning in place and waxing about "better" and so forth, sans growth and expansion.

JL
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jul 24, 2013 - 09:56pm PT
Jung writes that "All projections provoke counter-projection when the object is unconscious of the quality projected upon it by the subject."

I'll bet that Jan has something to say about this.

The problem with wikipedia is that it simplifies many things for an average readership. All scholarship is tricky, full of mines and quicksand, and nuanced. (Not that anyone HERE wouldn't understand perfectly--that is, if scholars understood anything perfectly themselves).

I'd refer to Jung's student, Erich Neumann. Neumann explained projections a little bit differently in his book on the origins and development of consciousness.

Archetypes are symbols in the unconscious (the collective memory of the species) that bubble-up under various conditions. Symbols cannot be articulated consciously very readily. (Signs can.) When being is first confronted with ambiguous and awesome environments, the unconscious throws up an archetype that is projected onto the environment (raw sensations prior to categorizations / interpretations). Those archetypes are then taken in interpretatively more or less consciously and understood. So there is a double projection going on. For the most part, the conscious ego or individual has nothing to do with the process. It's what's naturally seen by all members of the specie at that stage of development.

What could be archetypes? The Great Mother, Father figures, heroes, the redemptive Son, Gods and Goddesses, Living Earth, among other things. Archetypes are programs developed over eons by a specie.

Ever notice how every child is afraid of the dark? It's remarkable given that almost never has any young child experienced real terror in the dark. But many of our ancestors have.
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Jul 24, 2013 - 11:15pm PT
Thoughtful posts recently. Thanks.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jul 24, 2013 - 11:35pm PT
I would have a lot to say here but in two hours I am leaving for the airport to wrestle four dogs and a cat from Okinawa to Colorado which should definitely be an existential experience!

There are retirement transitions and then there are retirement transitions! Anyway, wish me luck in maintaining my Boddhisattva cool!
WBraun

climber
Jul 24, 2013 - 11:38pm PT
We wish you well, Jan ........
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jul 24, 2013 - 11:39pm PT
wish me luck in maintaining my Boddhisattva cool!

Totally.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 24, 2013 - 11:44pm PT
Me too Jan and wishing well for the dogs and the cat. Flying is hard. So far! Big transitions for all concerned.

Good travels.

DMT
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jul 24, 2013 - 11:52pm PT
Thanks everyone! I couldn't get ready for the movers even after 6 months so I have to come back over to finish up, but this is Phase 1 and the real worry is if everyone will survive the trip, especially the 10 year old cat.

I'll post again when we get to brokedownclimber's place in Wyoming in about three days. After a week or two of rest there I have to empty out my mother's house in Colorado and finish selling it and then I land in my own house just north of Boulder which I bought off the internet and haven't seen yet. I'm definitely paying for all my years of fun overseas!
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 25, 2013 - 01:12am PT
Just breath through it, Jan. Surf it all right to the sweet spot.

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jul 25, 2013 - 02:18am PT
The important thing to consider when reviewing either Freudianism or Jungism are the two key questions as regards the ultimate validity of the main idea or theory that each advanced:

1)Does repressed sexuality from early childhood explain most subsequent key aspects of human behavior ?
Do the mechanisms associated with the Freudian model of the mind,namely, the ego, Id, and the superego really exist?

2) Does the collective unconscious really exist? Is there a universal collective human memory that forms the basis of symbols, character types, and sub-conscious motivations?
Do Jungian archetypes really exist? Does the psychological significance of a serpent , for instance,residing in a human collective unconscious , really mean the same thing across varying cultures and individuals?
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jul 25, 2013 - 09:56am PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#312854
Colossians 2:2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.


Romans 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:
“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Jul 25, 2013 - 10:33am PT
Welcome back to the rockies, Jan!


;>)
MH2

climber
Jul 25, 2013 - 10:52am PT
If yuo want to look for unconscious triggers and drivers (what drives behavior) here, look at all the looping around people do, the unconscious plan being that we never move beyond the discursive, and instead spend all kind of time spinning in place and waxing about "better" and so forth, sans growth and expansion.



This post about we old people being unable to change seems stuck on loop.


Hope all goes well for Jan and her companion.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 25, 2013 - 12:01pm PT
I had to spend a lot of time, years actually, looking at both Freud and Jung and one thing for sure is, the more you try and boost their material away from the subjective, the less fruitful it will be.

IMO, Jung vastly updated many of Sigmund's ideas while introducing the idea of the collective unconscious, itself a kind of spin on Platonic forms dragged into the experiential arena. Hal and Sidra Stone took basic Jungian models and worked them up into a very cogent psychology as we see in Voice Dialogue.

To answer Ward's question about whether or not sub-personalities exist such as the Id ande Super Ego (commonly called the Inner Critic), check out Embracing your Inner Critic, by the Stones, and Soul without Shame, by Byron Brown.

Owing to a pretty steady sea shift toward Attachment Theory and various incarnations of Self Psychoilogy, Freud and Jung exist mostly as scholastic persuits. Most of Sigmund's stuff has simply been dumped save for his basic framework.

And so far as looping around on our obsession to avoid ever exiting the discursive, this is true, but it is also conscious. If you think you are consciously sticking with the discursive, just tryu and break away from it for five minutes and see the inner and totally unconscious resistance you encounter. Much of it is habitual.

JL

locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Jul 25, 2013 - 12:11pm PT


Quick thread drift:

"I'll post again when we get to brokedownclimber's place in Wyoming in about three days."...

Let's all of us get together at Vedauwoo, SOON!!!...






Thread drift OVER!!!...

;-)

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 25, 2013 - 04:52pm PT
Largo.

Marlow said:
"Largo seems to be changing style at times, but it's superficial. He is in the domination mode, he has concluded beforehand and he pretends to be learning. When he is confused it is because his facts does not lead to his preconclusion. When that happens he pretends to have been joking or an other act of escaping. Largo is in many ways the LEB of philosophy on this thread and the Mind thread."
--

Largo said:
"Sometimes I have a hard time understanding you Marlow, possibly because your English is strangely phrased.

What your probelem is, I trust, is you're not used to hearing anyone but science types make declarations of any kind, believing as you do that they are the only one who have the "facts" to back up declarations. You lack the experiences to understand differently, so I honestly don't hold it against you. How would you otherwise know? You couldn't. That's the challenge Mike, Jan and I have in presenting some of our ideas. The data was not arrieved at through discursive means, and that's a concept largely lost on those here, who assume anything non-discursive must be intuitive, fuzzy felings, beliefs, or whatever, as opposed to knowing.

While you accuse me of posturing in terms of "learning," I have noticed that you have never asked a single honest qustion, the earmark of someone wanting to learn, and instead are content to toss out things in a transparent passive-aggresive fashion, always aiming at undermining credibility. That's a sneaky game, Marlow, and I'd wager you've learned little to nothing in meantime. I'm afraid you'll have to return to that coner and think it over. I'd expect a little more from a jazz lover.

I've only been confused here in believing that people were actually interested in exploring things beyond the discursive or evaluating mind. In that case I was confused and mistaken indeed. This thread has all the markers of an old-farts club, with me leading the way, mistaken as I was that it was otherwise.

Marlow's answer:

Just to remind you of what you're doing Largo, from the horse's own mouth, since the horse do not remember his own words. The pattern is easily seen all the way in your argumentation: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1386860&msg=1837901#msg1837901.

Some of Largo's Words from the link:

"Marlow, I am going to flame you every time out because your are an easy mark because you take it all too seriously. Did it ever occur to you that I am intentionally assuming an evangelistic - sartorial tone simply to sound pompous and to c*#k around with this material. I never even revise this stuff. I'm just mostly free associating. Now when you hit your stride with that faux professor tone, you simply cannot expect not to told not to return to your corner with the pointy hat because it's not all that serious."

Yes, Largo's a great pretender.

If you want to, you can just repeat the words "taking it too seriously" - that's part of your pattern when you're stuck. Or maybe you were joking?
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