Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 24, 2013 - 11:18pm PT
sounds like an interesting book

Review from The new Oxford Review

http://victorhanson.com/wordpress/?p=6090#more-6090
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jun 24, 2013 - 11:23pm PT
No. Just the opposite. It's been "roundly" condemned.

"Back to your corner."

.....

Douglas Murray
Today's Wall Street Journal: 'In Syria, let them fight it out'

Western governments would be mad to intervene in a war whose best outcome would be for both sides to lose.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324577904578557193071973074.html?mod=WSJUK_hpp_sections_opinion

Once upon time, our resident Jan appreciated the wisdom of Douglas Murray.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 25, 2013 - 12:32am PT
'In Syria, let them fight it out'


Madness to attempt to intervene at this point.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 25, 2013 - 03:10am PT
War seems to gather madness unto itself , like a black hole,or a spinning whirlpool
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 25, 2013 - 09:55am PT
It's been "roundly" condemned.

The book? The review?

By whom?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 25, 2013 - 08:27pm PT
Specialistclimber:

You need to be clearer and more specific about what you need or don't need from the council of elders on this thread.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 25, 2013 - 08:40pm PT
State your question in one concise sentence followed by a question mark.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 25, 2013 - 09:00pm PT
^^ I thought his conversation was that like the CB radio conversations of the 70s-80s. When,
if you were out off distance you wouldn't be able to hear the 3rd party Talk'in. So you'd only hear one side of the story.. Very comical!

Breaker-Breaker "SpecialClimber", Gotch'er ears on?

10-4 Gud Buddy!
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 26, 2013 - 12:01am PT
Toss those I-phones, people! Especially students.


Surge in digital dementia
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 26, 2013 - 12:08am PT
Man, you're trying to have a conversation with BES1'st? Man that's going to be challenging.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 26, 2013 - 01:15am PT
Every one of us must come to terms with the manifestations of ever- accelerating change .

It seems like that, doesn't it? It looks like there is nothing but change; change happens by itself, one should accept change, and one should maybe even promote change, everywhere.

Is there nothing that doesn't change? Shouldn't there be some kind of substance or matter than never changes, ever?

No??! That's a pretty strange reality, don't you think? How could anything not have a bottom to it, a final resolution, a final answer materially? How could there not be some ultimate substrate upon which everything springs forth and upon which Everything depends upon?

When you look at any thing closely and try to get to its essence or core, it appears to be a infinite process up, down, and sideways. You just can't pin anything down. Not one thing. Well, I take that back; technically, there is one thing, but as an answer, it seems hardly satisfying. There is just consciousness. That's all we really know.



Rene Descartes goes to his favorite bar, and his bartender asks Rene: "Would you like your usual drink, Monsieur Descartes?" Descartes replies, "I think not" and promptly disappears.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jun 26, 2013 - 07:51am PT
Malachi 3:6 “For I am the Lord, I do not change;

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. 9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 26, 2013 - 11:22am PT
State your question in one concise sentence followed by a question mark.

No traveller returns, puzzles the will, and makes us rather bear those ills we have than fly to others that we know not of?

JL
specialistclimber

climber
Jun 26, 2013 - 02:26pm PT
Possibly a neuru type was wearing red sweats and the non neuru type
wearing white sweats?

neuru types shoes were maybe the same color Merrils and non
resoles. Years later neuru type was probably in white grammicis with
probably either Sportivas or Boreal Fire's and non neuru type now
in blue or green sweats? neuru type at this time silently and
without inner sound probably asked if non nueru type JL or Nauru
type was investigating Valhalla from the eastern parking lot.

What is Nauru?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 26, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
Possibly a neuru type was wearing red sweats and the non neuru type
wearing white sweats?


Unlikely. Non neuru type would be in highwater jeans, black wingtips, white socks, slightly pideon-toed, porthole glasses, buck teeth, two dollar hair cut, nasal green Jansport pack containg seventy-six pens, sliderule, gay porn, Walkman with BeeGees, Olivia Newton John and Abba tapes, top, yoyo, bullfrog, and size 14 Robbins boots, lol.

JL
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 26, 2013 - 03:24pm PT
No traveller returns, puzzles the will, and makes us rather bear those ills we have than fly to others that we know not of?

Hamlet's soliloquy presents a dilemma: live with pain and suffering in this world, or commit suicide. We take Hamlet's words to mean the death of the body and all of one's life.

The speech can also be used to investigate death--of the smaller self, not the Big Self. One might be able to kill off the lesser inferior self so that the Big Self can emerge nakedly.

Hamlet has it wrong, which explains his existential angst. Is it the flesh that is heir to heartache and a sea of troubles, or is it one's sense of self via the mind? Hamlet's interpretation in his soliloquy is that heartache and suffering is Man's natural human condition (samsara).

Instead, what could be at issue is not "life" or "not-life," but (i) the sense of self that mind creates, versus (ii) the awareness of a timeless Self that no-mind uncovers. Kill the former to reveal the latter.

It's tougher than almost anyone can achieve. It might be impossible. The ego is especially strong and stable. It posits all of reality as "other" in the face of mutually-reliant interdependence, and makes all of not-self (phenomena, really) into objects with independent existence. The layering of projections by the discursive, analytical mind supports the achievement of an ego / sense of self to an almost god-like position (omnipotence, omniscience, and the center of all that is known).

How Could such an entity commit suicide? It can't.

One cannot fight the ego (one's self). One must devote less attention to it and let it go. One way this can be started is to simply notice experiences as experience rather than as either content or objects. This is what simply sitting (e.g., shikantaza) is good for. Objects / things, evaluations, feelings, etc. are all simply watched coming, residing, and going. After a while, they all tend to subside or self-liberate. What one ends-up with is a timeless awareness of content-less perceptions . . . just phenomena (akin to mirages or movie-like projections). Reality becomes less concrete, less serious, more open, with more potential, more unified (a greater sense of interdependence), and more spontaneous.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 26, 2013 - 03:27pm PT
two dollar hair cut

Why I never paid less than $10 for a haircut in my entire life...and that's a factoid.

either Sportivas

I got 2 pairs of high top La Sports

The layering of projections by the discursive, analytical mind supports the achievement of an ego / sense of self to an almost god-like position (omnipotence, omniscience, and the center of all that is known)

Even if this were true, which it isn't , how would the mind or its belay slave, the ego, know that it is manufacturing essences to be magically superimposed upon external reality?
The act of perception is too instantaneous , Not analytical .There is no content within our genes that we can point to and say: " that gene is responsible for the external manufacturing of an apple". If there were , certain individuals would inevitably be born without that gene and apples would not exist for them, and we know that this is not the case. Even Helen Keller experienced apples.
For the ego to prosper under those unlikely circumstances, to god-like proportions thus outlined, it would have to be convinced that it is making the moon silver and the sun rise tomorrow morning.
I know of no one who automatically thinks his/her mind Is inherently capable of such god-like de novo creativity. Not anyone outside the nearest megalomania support group , that is.

The elevating of human consciousness to " master of the world" status is letting things get a little out of hand.
Human consciousness, in whatever mode, has become the new deity; born out of the existential mind and its need for an indissouble monolithic category as a bargaining point for its contentions and arguments.









Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 26, 2013 - 04:18pm PT
Even if this were true, which it isn't (because I have hereby proclaimed as much - LOL), how would the mind know that it is manufacturing essences to be magically superimposed upon external reality?
-------

No cigar on that one, Ward. There is no "external, fixed reality as you posit it here, over which "mind" superimposes or projects a kind of skrim. Crazy as it sounds, it might be more usful to consider this process in the way my buddies suggest - that at the level of forms, your "external reality" is arranged, or the quantum stuff is reified by consciousness itself, much as the old QM doods suggested with the Copenhagan jive. And of coure we all know the "dangers of projecting QM onto the meta world." I am told they are doing so as we speak. Starting with light itself. But that's not my field or wheelhouse. So check with the quantifiers about that one.
-


There is no content within our genes that we can point to and say: " that gene is responsible for the external manufacturing of an apple". If there were , certain individuals would inevitably be born without that gene and apples would not exist for them, and we know that this is not the case. Even Helen Keller experienced apples.


There's no gene or any piece of neuro matter that we can reverse engineer in a way suggesting it "procuces" any particular form ie an apple. Such a model is not viable in today's world. You're harking back to a kind of reostate, diode, transistor model or something entirely mechanical.


Few appreciate that Fruity's very own 007 ocassionally rocked the Nehru, here with the comely Pussy Galore. Oh yeah!

Credit: Largo

JL
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 26, 2013 - 04:35pm PT
There is no "external, fixed reality as you posit it here,

How did I know , beforehand, even whilst penning that line ,that this would be the Nehru response.
I almost edited to read "....upon a hypothetical external reality" LoL

There's no gene or any piece of neuro matter that we can reverse engineer in a way suggesting it "procures" any particular form ie an apple.

Exactly my point. Therefore the apple exists in the external world. The neuro mechanisms we humans employ are merely encoded to receive the image, taste, the feel of external things.
There is nothing contained within our sensory apparati that is anything more than strictly interpretive.
In the same way that MikeL interprets a Shakespearian line without being its author.

Now I'm hungry for an apple.

Later...goin to the store for some apples...

Largo, I amended my line to read:

Even if this were true, which it isn't , how would the mind ,or its belay slave, the ego, know that it is manufacturing essences to be magically superimposed upon external reality?

You might want to back -edit your copied version accordingly.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 26, 2013 - 06:36pm PT
Crazy as it sounds, it might be more useful to consider this process in the way my buddies suggest - that at the level of forms, your "external reality" is arranged, or the quantum stuff is reified by consciousness itself

I'd like to hear from a few more physicists on this point. Sometimes I think that JL's buddies are egging him on.
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