Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 14821 - 14840 of total 22379 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 18, 2013 - 10:32pm PT
No puerile sarcastic urges are manifesting,

That was funny.

Chief: Wonderful story. I busted out laughing.

Cheers, DMT. (I wonder if you ask as a father or as a teacher. If either, I'll bet you have your hands full.)

HFCS:

"Deal with it" may be another way of saying, "relax."
MH2

climber
Jun 19, 2013 - 12:29am PT
One of my climbing partners worked in Nigeria. He would try to make plans to do things with his friends. They would listen to him and then ask, "But what of NOW, Robert?"
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 19, 2013 - 12:29am PT
I said above somewhere that the most important thing that I learned on this thread, was the strength or power of beliefs. In the face of almost irrefutable evidence or reasoning, folks appear to serve their beliefs more than anything--irrespective of political or spiritual denomination.

I thought this must be an important mystery. Recently, I read something that seems satisfying as a possible answer.

Beliefs must be emotional. If that's accurate, the realization could make it easier for anyone to hear another's beliefs when they do not harmonize with their own. Beliefs are emotional things, rather than things that can or should be argued about with each other.

Beliefs must somehow create a sense of self or identity. I can't see that how others thought of one's identity would matter all that much, . . . but to Self, . . . well, THAT must be foundational, somehow.

Beliefs turn "this is who I am" into "this is who I must be." They escalate commitment.

Without beliefs, who would we be?
MH2

climber
Jun 19, 2013 - 12:47am PT
What are beliefs, MikeL?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 19, 2013 - 12:00pm PT
The power of beliefs a la MikeL: Charlie bit me... and it hurts... Isn't it real?

No,no... it's not... I'm just being rude to the ten-masters.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 19, 2013 - 12:51pm PT
In some of the protracted discussions about the recent generations I introduced an observation having to do with what I recognized as the dual or bifurcated nature of every other generation in the most recent cross- saeculum grouping
Silient- short
Boomer- long
GenX-short
Millennial- long

The " shorts" seemed more monolithic , and less bifurcated. The "longs" seemed to contain two distinct groupings.
Again , without getting in a long discussion supporting my claims, I only bring this point up because there seemed to be a natural curiosity about Millennials recently expressed on this thread.

Millennials represent two distinct groupings: those born in the 1980s and those born in the 1990s.
Among the many differences betwixt the two I've always considered the analog/digital divide to be perhaps the more significant distinction from an educational , and cultural vantage point.

1980s Millennials were the last of the analog peoples. Their earliest childhood experience in mass media were shaped by the retreating vanguard of analog technology . They grew up singing songs in grade school to the teacher's rather cutting-edge cassette tape deck.
Again, it is not my intention to delve into an overly- long invocation of McCluhanesque explanations to suggest why this might be important .
The 80s Millennials are now in their twenties and they have had to reassert their analog acoustic strumming sensibilities partly as a reaction to the strictly digital ear of their slightly younger brothers and sisters.

1990s Millennials are the first digital generation. The first CD, and now hard drive download peoples. The first Internet sub-cohort.
They are now mostly teens and very early twenties.
Their sensibilities and sense ratios have been thoroughly shaped visually and auditorily by digital technology.



High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jun 19, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
Egypt has invented a time machine!

Unfortunately the dial is stuck on the 14th century.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/19/world/middleeast/islamists-press-blasphemy-cases-in-a-new-egypt.html?ref=world&_r=1&

You all know Ryan Reynolds...
"Religion poisons everything good in this world."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_Reynolds

This meme seems to be spreading.

In the long view, I think what's emerging in ever stronger numbers is some kind of new-age metaphorical theism or new-age mythical theism minus "religion" or religious institution to serve as counterpoint to the traditional forms.

.....

re: blue pill versus red pill (as religious and anti-religious symbols)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_pill_and_blue_pill

Regarding "free will," what's your pleasure... blue or red?
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 19, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
Every time humans change their subsistence levels dramatically, all the previous institutions change or modify radically. The outlooks and institutions of the hunter gatherers, pastoralists, horticulturalists, agriculturalists and industrialists are all quite different. It makes sense that the digitized information age would evolve different systems as well. The most difficult periods are the transitions inbetween when the old order is crumbling and the new one can not yet be seen.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 19, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
The red pill metaphor of the Matrix merely shows Neo moving from one turtle up / down to another turtle. The matrix basically presents a simulation of the same world, although in another state of condition. It's essentially the same worldview with the same beliefs in cause-and-effect, physical laws of reality, people with identities, objects and things, etc. Ditto for The Truman Show. Simulations invariably expose the same worlds, just with a few things moved around. It's very difficult to find science fictions with paradigmatically different realities. Why? Probably because we cannot seem to suspend our most fundamental beliefs.

Jan may be pointing to paradigmatically different realities. The Matrix doesn't.
MH2

climber
Jun 19, 2013 - 05:04pm PT
It's very difficult to find science fictions with paradigmatically different realities.


Roadside Picnic by Arkady & Boris Strugatsky inserts a quite different reality into a conventional one. It is the basis for the Russian movie Stalker. It isn't too hard to imagine radically different realities but unless they have something recognizable to humans they are too boring for most of the audience.

edit:

I should add that I consider Stalker to be a great movie but there are long intervals where nothing seems to be happening, or where what does happen makes no sense. The book is excellent but with more human-human action.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jun 19, 2013 - 05:14pm PT
I said above somewhere that the most important thing that I learned on this thread, was the strength or power of beliefs. In the face of almost irrefutable evidence or reasoning, folks appear to serve their beliefs more than anything--irrespective of political or spiritual denomination.


So you guys are winning. Over on the Climate Change thread we came to the same conclusion ages ago, which is why we are only at 10000 posts. Mike, stating things like that can have a real damper on the discussion. Watch out.

MH2

climber
Jun 19, 2013 - 09:24pm PT
Might as well give some other credits, here.


He's as blind as he can be,
Just sees what he wants to see,
Nowhere Man can you see me at all?


John Lennon 1965





All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest


Paul Simon 1968





As for MikeL, he may have a different notion of belief than the usual. He has said that all we have are beliefs and that all beliefs are false. I am not sure if he holds open a place for facts. Facts can be ignored, but it takes an unusual vantage to see facts as beliefs. I admit that on the issue of climate change, many people seem able to do that.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jun 19, 2013 - 09:25pm PT
paradigmatically different realities.

Roger Zelazny's Lord of Light is right up there in terms of overlapping multiple worldviews. Essentially a Nietzschean will-to-power plotline, but played out by space colonists who adopt Vedic avatars. Very easy to lose track of what's going on and why. Also the faux screenplay used in the Tehran escape adventure portrayed in Argo. Works on lots of levels simultaneously.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 19, 2013 - 10:19pm PT
Thanks, Bruce. I don't mean to be a damper. That's quite a thread (Climate Change) you all have going on over there. (We're rather calm over here by comparison.)


All facts are theory-laden, MH2. One can't have facts without a theory for what counts as a fact. Every research study's methodology section stipulates what will be seen as a fact (and hence what won't). But what counts as a fact is itself defined by a theory. If you understand this, then you can begin to see how research studies are circular: to prove (actually, put to a test of falsification) a theory, a researcher uses measurements (whose existential references and essences are equally problematical) that are defined by other theories to verify and validate a theoretical argument under contention in a study.

No where does consciousness meet directly with an object.

Magicians do the same thing; it's sleight of hand. Keep your eyes on the magician's hands, not the object [here, the research objective] he or she is pointing at.

Look at your own hands. Move them around. Can you feel your hands? You can't. Your brain is locked-up in a dark compartment, responding to electrical signals, that are responding to sensory biological processes. You *think* you're feeling your hands. That too is a construction.

All that I am aware of is my consciousness. (I don't know what you are aware of or even if you really exist.)

Anyone serious about investigation and truth should hold high standards of skepticism dearly.

Facts are constructions. Facts are objectivized sensations / perceptions. They're reifications.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 19, 2013 - 10:26pm PT
The power of beliefs a la MikeL: Charlie bit me... and it hurts... Isn't it real?

If it occurs in his mind, then it's real. If not, then it's not real.

Where is hurt? Can you grasp it? Can you find it right now? When you think you have hurt, can you say what it is?

Hurt is a concept, an interpretation.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 19, 2013 - 10:33pm PT
Hmmmm. This is definitely the first time ever that I've been accused of having too material a paradigm on this thread!
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 19, 2013 - 10:42pm PT
I think this thread has been derailed

No facts????
there is more to this reality than what happens inside our mind,
and we all Know that there is a whole universe that exists outside our mind, that is a fact....period, fact...

all we have to do is acknowledge it, and have an agreement that it exists, then it can be confirmed as such
like this post, it exists, no one can deny that!

I'm sure some may disagree, but you can only argue from a philosophical stand point, there is no argument based in science
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 19, 2013 - 10:42pm PT
Facts are constructions. Facts are objectivized sensations / perceptions. They're reifications


This is so counter-intuitive that few will understand it experientially and those lacking the experiences will write it off as jive as it doesn't mesh with the illusion that objective "reality" remains selfsame, as evidenced by measurements. So-called "coarse" materialism seeks to eliminate consciousness from "external reality" so the stuff out there is stand alone. Most people would bet their lives on this belief being a simple fact becasue their discursive mind and sense organs say so.

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jun 19, 2013 - 11:38pm PT
Finally, something of a commemoration ring for the true mechanist amongst us...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NI2N6fsPjjg

Ladies, lady climbers, trust me, this is what you want to get your mechanist husband for Christmas-Curante this year! :)
MH2

climber
Jun 19, 2013 - 11:53pm PT
No where does consciousness meet directly with an object.


What do you mean by "meet directly?" Can you give an example of two things that do meet directly? Yes, facts are used to build a larger picture. A brain begins to do this as soon as the first sensory receptors, neurons, and synapses start to operate in an embryo.


edit:

It does not need a formal theory or to be told what a fact is.
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