Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 8, 2013 - 09:39pm PT
Blueblocr-

The New Testament and Christian teachings are full of the number 7 and in every case that I've explored, these correspond to the chakras and how to unblock them. Seven vices, virtues, sacraments, gifts of the spirit, fruits of the spirit, seals, churches, signs, sounds, symbols etc. The book of Revelation is particularly full of them and at one level can be understood as a meditation manual based on the experiences of the Apostle John.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 8, 2013 - 09:40pm PT
jogill-

Thanks for the reference. Needless to say, I like that model. I always knew I was a neo Platonist but a neo Pythagorean is a new concept for me, mathematically challenged as I am! I see an even more interesting book than The Medium, the Mystic, and the Physicist, could be written about Mathemeticians and Meditators.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 8, 2013 - 09:45pm PT
Seems to sum up everything you've been trying to say all along. Could've saved yourself a lot of time by just posting it right off the bat.


finally

after asking multiple times I have the answer of exactly what JL ultimately "believes'

thanks for posting that, it explains a lot to me


Nope. It explains nothng about me whatsoever. The fact that people believe I have a secret God agenda tells me that believe not what I am actually writing, but what they belive. If you don't fit in either a materialists camp, or a religio camp, people seem to struggle with this mightly, since the standard catagories don't wash.

I have made it perfectly clear, as has Mike, and to some extent, Jan, that content, including some mysterious, independent "mind," is not the golden fleece here, but nothing at all, emptiness, the ungrapsable geyser of experience, which all amount to the same thing.

I have said 1,000 times that what I am driving at concerns no beliefs at all. Nor faith. Nor yet a divine power in the traditional sense. How quicklly you rabbits jump onto a carrrot, so long as it fits your projections. That's worth pondering, if you're given to pondering.

Verily, this is Max's view of things. Not my own. I try and look at all perspectives. This is just another of many interesting ones.

So instead of waging your projections on me, why not take a crack at what you believe one of the father's of quantum mechanics was saying here, which is surely based on his life emersed in the tiny world. I won't wager a guess because it's not in my wheelhouse.

JL
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jun 8, 2013 - 09:46pm PT
Ah Jan - this is right up your alley. You must be familiar with these guys and perhaps this book:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/technology/science/is-denial-the-secret-of-humanitys-success/article12428138/
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Jun 8, 2013 - 10:26pm PT
I agree...

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ĎMy counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,í

Hebrews 4:13 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.


1020 God, all-knowing
http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/dictionary-of-bible-themes/1020-God-all-knowing

The omniscience of God is that attribute by which he knows all things past, present and future. What is hidden from human sight is still known by God. Scripture stresses the wisdom of God in all his actions, and often grounds this in his all-embracing knowledge.

Godís unique self-knowledge within the Trinity

Mt 11:27 See also Jn 10:15; 1Co 2:10-11

The nature of Godís knowledge

Godís knowledge originates within himself Isa 40:13-14 See also Job 21:22; Ro 11:33-34; 1Co 2:16

Godís knowledge is complete Mt 10:30 pp Lk 12:7 See also Ps 147:4; Isa 40:26

God knows things that are hidden from human understanding Dt 29:29 See also Job 37:15-16; Da 2:22; Mt 24:36 pp Mk 13:32; Ac 1:7; 2Co 12:2-4

Godís comprehensive knowledge of people

Godís knowledge of peopleís actions Job 34:21 See also Job 24:23; Job 31:4; Ps 33:13-15; Ps 139:2-3; Jer 23:24

Godís knowledge of peopleís needs Mt 6:8 See also Mt 6:31-32 pp Lk 12:29-30

Godís knowledge of peopleís hearts and minds 1Ch 28:9 Scripture views the heart not primarily as the seat of emotion but more particularly as the seat of the will. See also Ps 44:20-21; Ps 139:1-2; Jer 17:10; Eze 11:5; Heb 4:12-13

Godís knowledge of individuals Ge 20:1-7 Godís knowledge of Abimelechís motives and behaviour towards Abrahamís wife Sarah; 1Sa 16:1-12 the Lord to Samuel regarding Davidís anointing as king; Ac 5:1-10 Godís knowledge of the deception of Ananias and Sapphira

Godís knowledge of peopleís sin Jer 16:17 See also Job 10:14; Ps 69:5; Jer 2:22; Hos 7:2; Am 5:12

Godís foreknowledge

Isa 46:10 See also Isa 42:9; Isa 44:7; Da 2:28

Godís foreknowledge of Jesus Christís passion Ac 2:23 See also Ac 3:18; Ac 4:27-28

Godís foreknowledge of those who would become disciples Ro 8:29 See also Jer 1:5; Ro 11:2; 1Pe 1:2

Godís foreknowledge of peopleís free actions Ps 139:4 See also Ex 3:19; Dt 31:21; 1Sa 23:10-13

Implications of Godís knowledge

Godís knowledge ensures that all will be judged fairly Heb 4:13 See also 1Sa 2:3; Job 34:22-23; Ecc 12:14; Ro 2:16; 1Co 4:5

Godís knowledge ensures that he knows those who are his 2Ti 2:19 See also Nu 16:5; Ex 33:12; Job 23:10
Jn 10:14 See also 1Co 8:3; Gal 4:9; 1Jn 3:19-20; Rev 3:8
jogill

climber
Colorado
Jun 8, 2013 - 10:34pm PT
What a whirlyjig of ideas, and, like a carousel, when the music stops we remain seated on our favorite wooden horses.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 8, 2013 - 10:34pm PT
Bruce-

I did read that article the first time you referred to it. Of course there have been many works of philosophy and fiction in the past that have also referred to man's intelligence as being his downfall in one way or another. Personally I am less worried about the denial behind global warming wiping out the human race than miscalculations involving nuclear weapons. In both cases, I believe the least resilient members of the species would/will prove to be the most highly educated in the most technological societies, although highly educated humans with an outdoors background will fare better than others.
MH2

climber
Jun 8, 2013 - 10:39pm PT
MikeL,

I am not sure what to make of your statement, "I know it doesn't matter."

If it does not matter to you, likely I cannot change that.

It may matter to me, depending on what you refer to.

I went to Barsalou's Emory University website and looked at his publications. I found nothing to object to. It could well be that I don't understand what is meant by "the problem of transduction" here. Is it one of these uses of the word?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transduction


I am not obtuse nor clever. As I said once before, what you can readily learn from my posts is that I am glib, cryptic, and prone to use cliche.
MH2

climber
Jun 8, 2013 - 11:39pm PT
JL says:


Science is doing a fine job of describing the process by which objects, sensations, thoughts and so forth are being generated in the brain, but the key component in experience, the experiencer/subject, is being left out of the equation.



I don't think that science is leaving the experiencer/subject out of the equation. Under general anesthetic the experiencer/subject is rendered unconscious. You probably know that from personal experience. This points to the experiencer/subject being a part of the nervous system acted on by general anesthesia.
WBraun

climber
Jun 8, 2013 - 11:42pm PT
Under general anesthetic the person becomes only unconscious of ones body.

Total consciousness of the individual is not lost.

Otherwise the individual would be dead ......
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 9, 2013 - 12:04am PT
Yes Jan.
I do have a little understanding about the number 7. But when I was using the "chakra" methods I never coincided it with the bible. I basicly used it for stress. I don't think that term is in the bible is it?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 9, 2013 - 12:18am PT
What a whirlyjig of ideas, and, like a carousel, when the music stops we remain seated on our favorite wooden horses.


Truer words were never spoken IME. Notice how the discursive mind trance holds us all by the short hairs. Whatís more, we put virtue on being IN a trance, never suspecting as much till some earth shattering direct experience shows them as much.
-


I don't think that science is leaving the experiencer/subject out of the equation. Under general anesthetic the experiencer/subject is rendered unconscious. You probably know that from personal experience. This points to the experiencer/subject being a part of the nervous system acted on by general anesthesia.


Those are two important but unrelated ideas. For instance, try and find any ongoing neuroscience investigation that deals with anything but objective processing. In an article in the LA Times last year a leading neuroscientist said they "have no idea whatsoever" how sentience is generated by the brain. So much so that some ae starting to look at the brain as a kind of motem, though details were lacking.

JL

------
PS: DR. ROBERT JORDAN SEZ: On the issue of general anesthesia, some individuals under general anesthesia are able to report details of events occurring in the operating room such as what music was playing and what the operating room personnel said - often to the embarrassment of those present. If nothing can be recalled by the individual under general anesthesia, this cannot be interpreted to mean that the "I" goes away. It may simply mean that the person's ability to pay attention and to remember has been short-circuited. I work with alcoholics who black out and remember nothing of their experience during the black out. Apparently, when a person under acute intoxication blacks out, the neural pathways in the hippocampus and elsewhere, which are fundamental to retaining memories, are not functioning. Nevertheless, they are able to act and think (too much!) like themselves during that period about which they later have no recollection.
MH2

climber
Jun 9, 2013 - 12:48am PT
If nothing can be recalled by the individual under general anesthesia, this cannot be interpreted to mean that the "I" goes away. It may simply mean that the person's ability to pay attention and to remember has been short-circuited.


That is as good an indication of the physical nature of the self and more specific than just saying the person was unconscious.

People do sometimes recall events that happened to them under general anesthesia. Anesthesia is not an all-or-nothing affair. It can be light or deep. Light anesthesia is preferred to reduce the risk of harmful after-effects.

Compare what typically happens under general anesthesia to what happens when a dissociative anesthetic like ketamine is used. It is definitely possible to mess with the sense of self, and memory, without putting the "I" to sleep.

If acknowledging the primacy of the subjective requires an earth-shattering experience, I'll wait until that happens.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 9, 2013 - 01:25am PT
If acknowledging the primacy of the subjective requires an earth-shattering experience, I'll wait until that happens.


It can only happen that way because the discursive trance is so strong and so convincing. It really makes the gratest "sense." The brain "creates" the whole show . . . till it comes time to explain the really thorny questions, like the fact that energy cannot be made or lost. But I have learned that there simply is no moving a person off a staunch materialist stance. Only a direct experience can do that. Otherwise it's all just so much talk, whcih is the wheelhouse of discursive.

What's more, the discursive mind is unbelievably beligerent. It reminds of of this conversation, which actually happened:

US Ship: Please divert your course 0.5 degrees to the south to avoid a collision.

CND reply: Recommend you divert your course 15 degrees to the South to avoid a collision.

US Ship: This is the Captain of a US Navy Ship. I say again, divert your course.

CND reply: No. I say again, you divert YOUR course!

US Ship: THIS IS THE AIRCRAFT CARRIER USS CORAL SEA, WE ARE A LARGE WARSHIP OF THE US NAVY. DIVERT YOUR COURSE NOW!!

CND reply: This is a lighthouse. Your call.

JL
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 9, 2013 - 01:35am PT

. This Mind is the matrix of all matter.

I could go along with Max on all points, except this one.

Even though our mind knows what's the right or wrong path to take for a decision. Isn't it our conscious that try's to steer us in the right direction by conjuring up emotions?

The mind can put together the parts of the Internet. But it's the combined consciousness
of the users that will predict the boundrys of its universe..
Shakespeare
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jun 9, 2013 - 01:39am PT
I did read that article the first time you referred to it. There have been many works of philosophy and fiction in the past that referred to man's very intelligence as being his downfall in one way or another. Personally I am less worried about the denial behind global warming wiping out the human race than miscalculations involving nuclear weapons.

That was not particularly my interest in the article. What i find fascinating is the idea that cultures can "create reality" in one context or another (religion, politics, economics....) that can become a powerhouse that drives that culture forward to all kinds of success, so long as the environment allows it - or that the mythologies inherent it do not conflict too drastically with true realities. I think they are saying that denial becomes imperative to oppose realities to sustain the myth, which the success is percieved to be dependent upon. This is the default because the myths are sacred, while reality sure isn't. Do you think these observations of theirs are accurate across the board?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 9, 2013 - 01:58am PT
This is the default because the myths are sacred, while reality sure isn't. Do you think these observations of theirs are accurate across the board

This is also true of rather abstract political and intellectual ideologies. In fact this was originally the operating definition of "ideology " as used by 19 century philosophers like Schopenhauer , Nietzsche, and even Hegel.

I think they are saying that denial becomes imperative to oppose realities to sustain the myth, which the success is percieved to be dependent upon

The " myths " alluded to here are difficult to trace as the epiphenomenon of a collective consciousness like a national culture . They evolve within a complex historical and psychological context and are somewhat evolutionary ; rather than a steady , fixed mythology or fictional narrative.
This is important in understanding that such representative collective ideas that undergird a society are far more inherently systematic and organic in nature and function and are not thoroughly valid nor invalid ,but rather mixed through and through --like a rocky road of truths, half-truths, and falsities.
Furthermore, all societies possess this particular dynamic and the social -political garb it comes dressed in. No generation is going to come along any time soon and by sheer force of sanitizing truthfulness revolutionize mankind to live and think in the absence of some persevering degree of collective myth. The reformers will simply replace the old set with a new set of social fictions, perhaps even worse, more draconian. Wolves in sheepskin clothing- and all that.
We've seen this time and again.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 9, 2013 - 02:32am PT

Personally I am less worried about the denial behind global warming wiping out the human race than miscalculations involving nuclear weapons.

Either way SCIENCE will be the tool man uses to deconstruct the planet

The ONLY good thing about science is that it fixes the problem that it that it invented.
Einstein
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 9, 2013 - 02:42am PT
There have been numerous examples of culture whose mythology was so strong, they failed to survive. Here are three from the American experience and clearly there are many more.

The Shakers didn't believe in sex but relied on converts and mostly on adoption of orphans, to keep their communities going. I think there are maybe two or three old lady Shakers left in the world now.

You can also calculate the rate of genetic mutations among the inbred Amish, especially of Lancaster County, and if nothing changes, estimate how many generations until 100% are afflicted and finally the group fails to reproduce itself.

At the opposite end of that spectrum are the Hutterites with the highest rate of reproduction ever known - an average of over 12 living children per couple, whose greatest threat is running out of farmland since their communal life depends on farming. When the Amazon is settled, and there is no land left, they will either have to practice birth control or give up their very healthy communal way of life.

I personally always thought that adequate food was the bottom line for humans until I met many high caste Hindus in a Nepalese village who preferred to drink thin millet soup once a day and sleep through several months of the year rather than participate in a food for work program which they felt was below their caste dignity.

Most cultures do as Ward suggests however, and modify their myths enough to survive.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jun 9, 2013 - 02:58am PT
Jan - then to what degree does willful denial of reality play with the Hindus , Shakers, hutterites etc. That is, do they deny the fact of malnutrition or statistical red flags about their reproductive rates? Or do they say "yeah we're totally fuked but our dogma is what matters"?

And was the vulnerability always apparent or did certain environmental conditions make the vulnerability insignificant? In other words was there a need to create a state of denial right from the get go?

I think what I'm curious about is the extent of the inherent resistance to change under "external " (reality) pressures. For instance wouldn't you say that the Mormons are not idiots in their ability to "evolve" almost as fast as the world around them. Fortunate for them, their mythology allows for that ability!
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