Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Messages 14341 - 14360 of total 22344 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 6, 2013 - 01:30am PT
Wikipedia has an interesting article on kundalini (thanks Dr. F. !).

One of the things it states is this, " The biological changes of increased P300 amplitudes that occurs with certain Yogic practices may lead to acute psychosis."

Can somebody with a neurobiology background please explain to me what P300 amplitudes are?
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 6, 2013 - 01:53am PT
Jan, I can't account for what happens to me. ("I didn't do anything. It's not my fault!")


It's jogill's complaint that I'm most concerned about: just where are those infinite infinities?

They're everywhere.

I look in front of me in this cabin I'm in, and I see an open bag of Tostitos. At first, the item looks simple and well-defined, but when I look closer, I see that all the colors show more shades than I can keep track of. And when I move my head just a little right or left, the shades shift. I move my focus away from a point a tenth of a millimeter, and I see another shade. I look even closer (I get out my magnifying glass), and I see different things than what I saw before. The closer my view, the more radically different things I see. I think that might happen into infinity.

I do the same with a chip in the bag, but this time I focus on texture. At first the chip's surface looks a little bumpy and blotchy, but I get really close with my magnifying glass, and the texture and color changes. I suspect the surface changes the farther I go up macroscopically or the farther I go down in microscopically. It's like my consciousness shifts from one dimension into another dimension.

What about the bag? It's surely has definite dimensions, doesn't it? A super-duper close inspection reveals fractals, and those fractals indicate infinite distances or lengths.

The same goes for what's left and right of the bag as for what goes for in or out microscopically on the bag. There appears to be no end or any beginning to anything. It's all infinities.

Every sense offers an infinite range of values. Thank god there are only 5 of those.

Wait . . . are we sure there are only 5 senses? If I reach out with my consciousness, I can sense something else out there, but I don't have a word for it. Maybe it's telepathy, intuition, or Bell's theorem.

The more experience you get, the more experience that you can make available to yourself. It's like listening to music. The more you listen to music, the more you develop an ear. And the more that you can appreciate that music is infinite. The same goes for anything. Everything exposes infinities if you can open yourself up to them.


You know this spiritualism stuff isn't really about anything that's sacred, fragile, and ethereal. It's as pragmatic, practical, and concrete as anything could possibly be. Experience is exactly that. On the other hand, people see, hear, feel, smell, and taste their realities in definitive ways because their sensitivities are crude, brutish, and inexperienced. (Not yours, jogill.)

Look closely and carefully at anything, and you'll fall out of an exploding singularity that never ends.

On the other hand, if you see any thing as defined, clear, unambiguous, with hard edges, deterministic, closed, and dualistic, then I suspect you're seeing things through a rational concept. Reality gives every indication that it is utterly continuous.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 6, 2013 - 02:34am PT
MikeL
Your posts have always refreshed me with an absolute awe in a different view in seeing things

Until this one.

Infinities in a bag of chips? I didnt think there could be infinities in ANY material thing.
With the right microscope or telescope one should be able to see ALL the spectrums of a bag... And there would be an end to it. Thus putting the bag in a box.

I heard somewhere, that my body contains prehistoric stardust. Well, when did that star enter my bloodstream? When I conceived and made an embryo? Or did it become a part of me from the tonnage of chips I've embellished over the years?

Either way, do you think that makes that star infinite?

Cause no ones ever called me a star.


You know this spiritualism stuff isn't really about anything that's sacred, fragile, and ethereal.

And jeez, respectfully, you don't even know what spiritualism is, if you havnt met The Holy Spirit.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jun 6, 2013 - 09:19am PT
What the hell is this life that we have unfolding before and inside of us.

Seems like a reasonable question to me, although to some it might be like trying to explain a joke to Mr Spock. Either you're awed by the mystery, or not. Too bad, though, this field of study is dominated by bizarre fantasies, and populated by charlatans and the insecure people who follow them.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 6, 2013 - 10:13am PT
Thanks to Ed for mentioning The Science of Yoga. I thought it sounded familiar and when I looked it up on Amazon, discovered from a picture of the cover that I had in fact dusted the same book just the day before and wondered, why I hadn't read it yet. Another coincidence!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jun 6, 2013 - 10:33am PT
Too bad, though, this field of study is dominated by bizarre fantasies, and populated by charlatans and the insecure people who follow them.



Such bs. I'm glad you all keep it on this thread and don't take it climbing where attention to reality and elimination of bs actually matter.

What the hell is this life that we have unfolding before and inside of us. When we hear objective descriptions it's not really addressing the question at all, and we all know it in our gut.

First sentence, well that's the $64M question, now isn't it. All of science and of course our history of religions in large part are a response to it. Second sentence, it's a shame you choose to phrase so much of your postings like this, it's such a losing strategy.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 6, 2013 - 10:37am PT
I'm quite sure that just as people have climbed drunk, stoned, and high on psychedelics, so have they also climbed in mystical states.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jun 6, 2013 - 10:41am PT
Yeah, that would suck if your belayer's kundalini came out, right in the middle of the crux.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 6, 2013 - 10:49am PT
BB:

The recognition that any dimension is continuous means that you can arbitrarily take any segment and divide it up infinitely. Each dimension is an infinity. That includes a taco chip or a spectrum of colors. (See Zeno's Paradox.)

You're caught in the mental rational web as much as anyone here, BB. To conceive of anything is to come up with an abstraction. That's the work of mental rationalism. There are far more views of reality than that. Forget prehistoric and look for what is timeless.

The Holy Ghost is a close friend of mine. We laugh at the absurdities of Man and the wonder of trees.
WBraun

climber
Jun 6, 2013 - 11:32am PT
The kundalini process of yoga is not possible in this age.

It's a very difficult process and was meant for a different age.

In this age of kali it is not possible to be successful with this yoga process.

Still foolish people with poor fund of knowledge of the different yoga processes for the different ages will try.

The kundalini process is gradually raise the life air (prana) up the chakras to purify and come to the ajna chakra.

Once there at the ajna chakra between the two eyebrows, one penetrates the hole in his skull, and one can go to any planet he desires.

The modern lab coats have no clue about any of this.

The modern lab coats all operate on the lower 2 chakras .......

MH2

climber
Jun 6, 2013 - 11:39am PT
A good spine in action:


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2013/06/06/bc-bear-car.html
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jun 6, 2013 - 11:48am PT

What the hell is this life that we have unfolding before and inside of us. When we hear objective descriptions it's not really addressing the question at all, and we all know it in our gut.

First sentence, well that's the $64M question, now isn't it. All of science and of course our history of religions in large part are a response to it. Second sentence, it's a shame you choose to phrase so much of your postings like this, it's such a losing strategy.


If you want to see how the discursive mind runs a very jealous ship, just look at the last sentense. Of course anything but staunch reasoning is "a losing strategy," although even Fruity doesn't actually live his life like this. If he has kids, we can be sure that he uses his "gut" to get a feel for where they are in life and what he should or should not do. Trying to avoide sensing into the intuitive and feeling tones (NOT emotionality) is to ignore life as a living organism and to treat it as a thing or a machine. The discursive powers are what you bring to bear AFTER you have done the required gut check. Miss the gut check, and get played by life as a kind of autistic fool.

---


What's more, the same slavery to the discursive mind is seen in this post:

-
Question: What the hell is this life that we have unfolding before and inside of us.

Answer: Seems like a reasonable question to me, although to some it might be like trying to explain a joke to Mr Spock. Either you're awed by the mystery, or not. Too bad, though, this field of study is dominated by bizarre fantasies, and populated by charlatans and the insecure people who follow them.



Trying to explain a joke to Mr. Spock is of no value because Spock is basically autistic and doesn't generate emotions, which are our personal barometer per our surroundings and our internal goings on. Here is another poor fellow cut off from his own personal process believing that evaluating things as a machine is actually an advantage, while the discursive mind unconsciously heaps virtue on doing just that.

Lastly, we're back to the entire field of the subjecive arts being "populated by charletans and insecure people."

-


This last bit is dishonest because it is drawn on no personal experience at all, but is most likely the common speculation that people in meditation halls are escapists motivated by the selfsame stuff of religious freaks.

I have no idea how the person who wrote that silly stuff came to those conclusions, but I would invite her to our Sangha to check those insecurities she envisions in others. It usually takes about five to ten minutes for such a person to come face to face with their own. That's the surface layer we all work with. The idea that the strong and manly and "together" dudes find all of this internal stuff untoward and needless is often - but by no means always - the mark of the narcisist, the alcoholic, and the poor sap "bound by self," sectectly terrified of peering within, and perfectly content to remain ignorant to their own corners, ramparts and gullies.

As they say, the work is certinly not for everyone, but it certainly isn't that way for the jackass reasons provided above. Again, the real shame here is that these evaluations are made befor a person has done any personal research. A guess will get you nowhere in this work,

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jun 6, 2013 - 12:10pm PT
even Fruity doesn't actually live his life like this. If he has kids, we can be sure that he uses his "gut" to get a feel for where they are in life and what he should or should not do.

Careful now, you're on the cusp of name calling again. Of course I rely on my gut feeling (aka intuition) and have always acknowledged this. Carl Sagan would once in awhile refer to this as our nervous system's "arcane calculus." This "gut feeling" system IS so impressive and mysterious it's led many (e.g., Oprah Winfrey, Sylvia Browne, etc.) in the past to call it infallible - and when there's a mishap to explain it away as a case of someone simply not listening to their gut feeling or intuition. Aughh, if only dystropy (bad happenings) were this simple, eh? For the record, I've never once walked the streets of New York City or Budapest or Cairo or gone climbing without my "arcane calculus" circuits in full-on mode.

Yes, I am machine with "gut feeling." Yes, I am an evolved, and evolving, machine equipped with intuition, moreover reason (reasoning capability), which prides itself on (values) being reasonable. Yes, I am machine that climbs rock. Yes, I am a living machine, chockful of mechanisms, chockful of the "machinery of life." I ack this, do you? You should. Of course you don't have to but you should. Because once thru the briar patch, it makes a lot of things (e.g., your "practice" of living in the 21st century) easier.

Carry on with your caricatures now, you internet brainiacs, you're already so deep in them why stop? In for a penny, in for a pound. ;)
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jun 6, 2013 - 12:11pm PT
John, do you really believe that everyone who disagrees with you does so because they are dishonest?
WBraun

climber
Jun 6, 2013 - 12:19pm PT
A machine ultimately is always controlled by an operator.

The operator is ultimately never the machine.

The operator can remotely control machines.

The operator can program a machine to run independent of the operator according to the original operator programing.

The machine and the operator are simultaneously one and different.

The modern lab coats "believe" and have "faith" in their defective theory that the machine and the operator are all one and same,

because they ultimately do not have full understanding of "Life" itself ......
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Potemkin Village
Jun 6, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
Research "ghost in the machine" and "the cartesian theater." These are the traditional ideas or beliefs or views. (Institutionalized and maintained by religious systems.) Umpteen millions have rejected them, or are in the process of rejecting them - yes it's a revolution underway - as a result of acquiring a science education and also respecting that education enough to uphold it. Of course I count myself among them. Revolutionary! It's tough though sometimes. It's a process... a briar patch... and progress is difficult. Esp in a culture and time that are still so superstitious and/or theistic.
WBraun

climber
Jun 6, 2013 - 12:38pm PT
There's no ghost in the machine and there never was.

You keep repeating this stupid nonsense.

You keep making stupid statements that you are a ghost when you are the operator of your car.

You are stupid .....
WBraun

climber
Jun 6, 2013 - 12:48pm PT
You are the real operator of the machine you are controlling to type your message.

Fruitcake is a biased mess ......
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Jun 6, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
Who operates the operator?
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jun 6, 2013 - 01:13pm PT
I think Fructose is making a valid point, like it or not. In my generation it was not acceptable to be an atheist and you had to be very careful about it. You might as well tell everyone you had AIDS. This is changing rapidly now, because it's harder and harder to indoctrinate children since the advent of the internet. When I was a child my family did everything possible to force me into their religion. In my opinion this is the worst possible thing you can do to a child, teach them that they must accept an entire belief system that they know is impossible. It teaches blind obedience to authority, and teaches them not to think for themselves. Often, it messes up their minds for life. It's no coincidence that religion and authoritarianism go hand in hand.
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