Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Mar 30, 2013 - 05:33pm PT
I'm working on a good reply, but this will have to do. A couple of statements of fact:

It is hard to quantify a personal experience using the senses and our minds.

We can, however, quantify ideas or thoughts. It just takes extra work and time. For instance, I have a flock of starlings in my backyard trees right now. They cackle constantly. To count them and to study their songs, I would have to at the least video tape it. Sure, the info is sensed, it is not an evolutionary advantage to be able to instantly count them and decode each cackle. An exception may be found among the idiot savants, who specialize in numbers and music, I believe.

1) We have senses. At least five for starters.

2) Those sensory organs are physical systems. How they work is pretty well understood. The anatomy of each of the five main ones has been dissected, described, and studied for nearly every extant animal. Fish have electric sensors, and those have been studied. Of course.

3) When those sense organs speak to the brain, the brain sorts through the information and qualitatively flags it. The growling Leopard will make you snap to, while the babble of birds goes by almost unnoticed.

4) The way our brains perceive and process this data is called experience. As of now, we cannot actually share first person experiences in a precise way. The precise way would be a Vulcan mind meld. Our approach is much slower and more difficult.

5) Due to the fact that information is often processed incorrectly, it implies that a large part of individual experience is subjective. Teasing objective qualities out of experiences is difficult but not impossible.

e.g. Conflicting eye witness testimony

6) The events that our bodies are subjected to is experience, and it is thoroughly quantitative.

7) Regarding the objective and quantifiable experience, the experience is real. Our interpretation of it is usually not, exactly. We can qualify experience fairly well, but we can't share our actual thoughts.

The way that we have gotten around these limitations is why we dominate the planet. Whales sing songs, but without a way to write it down, the information probably degrades over generations.

In my opinion, language can be created that is very precise. I could go into a ten paragraph tome or just write this:

Sw = [ (a / Fm)*(Rw / Rt) ](1/n)
Sw: water saturation
F: porosity
Rw: formation water resistivity
Rt: observed bulk resistivity
a: a constant (often taken to be 1)
m: cementation factor (varies around 2)
n: saturation exponent (generally 2)

This equation is one of many, but it is an old favorite still in use. Using this, you can tell if a zone has oil or gas or saltwater in it.

Imagine passing this one simple equation down through generations in any other way than the artificial symbolic language.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2013 - 05:37pm PT
Speaking of Werner

How about the topic of those that say they speak to: God, Jesus, Buddha, Mother Mary, Saint such and such, etc.

They really believe they are talking to them in the mind!
Many say, "They talk directly to God", or so they say
there are millions of them, of all religions, but mostly Christians

Can it be True???
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Mar 30, 2013 - 05:44pm PT
It is kind of funny. This thread will get all serious and intense. Then some newbie Christian shows up, having no clue as to what we have been talking about, and we still go at it.

I wonder how many people have followed this thread from beginning to end?

I am out for a few days and it is hell to catch up. It is more entertaining than watching "Lockup Raw: San Quenton."
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Mar 30, 2013 - 05:52pm PT
So, I'm back to the beginning: "what, exactly" is there to be "got at"?
-


This is a basic Zen koan phrased many different ways, from "Who am I?" to "What is Mu?"

First, notice as I have said repeatedly that it is the function of the rational mind to try and "get at" an answer, a thing to hold up to the light. Put simply, once you hold said "thing" up to the light, who and "what, exactly," witnesses same? No one can answer that for you.

THAT is the "deeper issue" we rarely experientially grasp, except as an idea, obsessed as we are with the THING, like so many magpies gaping at a sequin in the sun.

Grocking onto and quantifying the sequin is the proven way to basically wrangle physical or objective reality. It works great where it works. No argument there. It's only the discursive mind that insists that it works everywhere.

JL
WBraun

climber
Mar 30, 2013 - 05:54pm PT
Dr F

There's only ONE God period.

He speaks to every living entity.

He speaks to you and gives you intelligence so that you can write stooopid stuff in this thread that makes absolutely no sense unbeknownst to you.

He doesn't speak to the mind.

He speaks only to the living entity's soul.

All this is not faith or belief .... but absolute fact.

Now you can respond with your usual "It's all bullsh!t."

But that won't help you at all ......

Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2013 - 05:58pm PT
Thank you Werner,
It's great to hear the "word"

Inspirational words of wisdom that we all need to heed
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 30, 2013 - 07:26pm PT
Net!



Your serve Largo. 17-16

Happy Fuzzy Bunny Day!
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Mar 30, 2013 - 07:27pm PT
There's only ONE God period.

Why did the Egyptians have different gods?
The Romans?
The Babylonians?
The Norse?
WBraun

climber
Mar 30, 2013 - 07:34pm PT
Why did the Egyptians have different gods?


They didn't.

Due to poor fund knowledge by you they only were worshiping the demigods ......

Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Mar 30, 2013 - 07:43pm PT
What's a demigod?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 30, 2013 - 07:45pm PT
Malemute
Turn on ABC right now and watch The 10 Comandments.
That'll answer ur questions

Edit: Awe come on Capt'in, you don't have to believe in the bible to be able to appreciate
one of the best movies ever made. Just the depiction of the Egyptian life is Awesome!
Captain...or Skully

climber
Mar 30, 2013 - 07:46pm PT
Or not.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Mar 30, 2013 - 07:52pm PT
Gosh, I just stopped in to say hi to Dr. F. But then got to reading this last page. So much to respond to and think about. I wish I was retired.....or re- tired....I must be to tired. :DDDLOL Did anyone get that but me?

I love all yo guys. A Happy and Blessed Easter from lynnie.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Mar 30, 2013 - 07:52pm PT
Turn on ABC right now and watch The 10 Comandments.
That'll answer ur questions
no it won't.

I repeat, "what's a demigod?"
Furthermore, who created the demigods?
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2013 - 07:53pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
Hi Lynne L
Yes, please join in on the conversation
WBraun

climber
Mar 30, 2013 - 07:57pm PT
Demigods are very powerful agents of God to take care of the various administrative duties of the material creation.

The Sun God Ra as example.

He provides illumination.

Without illumination there would be no life nor knowledge.

These demigods are not metaphors.

They actually exist.

Their bodily feature are not visible normally to mundane living entities but their attributes are seen by material science in various capacities.

Not all demigods are spiritual entities.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2013 - 08:01pm PT
How do they work, since they don't have a brain or mind?
What do they do?
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Mar 30, 2013 - 08:24pm PT
If God is all powerful, why does he need agents?
Can't he do telekinesis?

Did the sun god Ra create all the stars? If so, why did God take the credit?

Do the agents & God share a hive mind?

Why did the Egyptians worship the agents? Did God never reveal himself to the Egyptians?

Why did God allow the Egyptians to build the pyramids?
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Mar 30, 2013 - 08:53pm PT
I'm not Ed's buddy, although I would like to meet him someday. He is far smarter than me.

I will say this, because it is pretty obvious:

Don't confuse the quantum world with the classical Newtonian world, JL. You can fly to Mars and do it all with classic mechanics. I am pretty sure that the velocities are so low that any relativity correction is also minute. So yeah, you can send a rover to Mars using classic mechanics. Correct me again, Ed.

If you want to get really precise with relativity, unless you spend a lot of time standing on your head, your head is older than your feet. I read that NIST placed two atomic clocks next to each other, but one was slightly higher (and therefore revolved around the Earth at a slightly faster speed than the lower clock. They measured it. I'm not sure if it was just a fun trick, but it is true. We covered relativity in Physics 1 and 2 as undergrads. Quantum physics deals with probabilities, but it works.

The best lay book that I have ever read on the topic is "QED" by Feynman. His path integral, and the notion that light travels in every conceivable path, isn't that hard to understand, because he was a great teacher. It came from a lecture to a non science audience, but it still takes some real thinking to get through it. It is a small book. Less than a hundred pages. No equations.

The Apple falls from the tree, and what happens can be predicted with great precision. Unless you are dealing with a really huge mass or a very high velocity, you can get by with Newton's physics, the groundwork of which was published in the late 1600's.

Can you imagine how bright that guy was? He not only gave us laws of motion that are applicable today, but he also did great work in mathematics. Calculus, for example, which is pretty amazing given that he had a pen and paper only. There were no calculators back then.

Other than our electronic gizmos, we wander about our merry lives using Newton's laws of motion. Ed can correct any oversight of that statement.

John, you seem hung up on something that the five classic senses can't feel. That doesn't necessarily imply the comedic "sixth sense," but you desperately avoid all of these quite logical and very fruitful avenues of explanation and prediction.

We can control our minds fairly easily. You can obsess about some wrong and get unreasonably angry. You can dream of that girl who got away and feel longing. Our minds can control their own output. Just look at the range of beliefs in this world, none of which are physically caused.

The thing about reductionism and determinism is "Where are they applicable?" Another way to say it is, "Will they be fruitful in this particular case?"

Some really great ideas came from a great imagination and a pencil and paper. You could say the same thing about art.

I'm a simpleton. I suggest that you use small words.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Mar 30, 2013 - 08:54pm PT
Werner's exsposure is very illuminating.


Drf
How do they work, since they don't have a brain or mind?
What do they do?

Your very scientificlly predictable in your questioning.
But you can't understand the matters of the spirit
By asking material questions
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