healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Werner: But they're both doing it. And that's why the world is hell ......
But wait, you're one of the most fundamentalist folks on ST. Is that hell for you?
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MH2
climber
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Looking at a few component parts like creationsism versus evolution or reincarnation versus oblivion and drawing conclusions about all religion based on that is a major flaw of the scientific method.
From behind the duck blind here I would like to pose a re-wording:
Looking at a few component parts like creationsism versus evolution or reincarnation versus oblivion and drawing conclusions about all religion based on that is unjustified.
I don't see anyone here using "the scientific method." This is just a conversation where people often don't listen to each other.
I thought that by societal outcomes Jan was referring to the possibility that if people believed in reincarnation, and would rather NOT come back to this world, and thought that good behavior would help them achieve that, then they would try to behave well.
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Bruce Kay
Gym climber
BC
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Likewise when Paul declares that religion is poison,
I'm wondering if you meant that I made this declaration as I was the last person to mention "poison"? If so I'm puzzled where you get this idea as I have stated emphatically that that is not true. I would agree if you said "certain religious dogmas are poison" or words to that effect but that does not translate literally to declaring all religion is poison. come to think of it, i mentioned poison only in reference to cigarettes that was only linked as an analogy to religion.
Aside from that Jan, I think you said something about science types straying from scientific method that made me think about the various theories of religious origin. I believe there is a fair bit of generally respected theory supported by understandings of psychology, that could account for the formation and perpetuation of religious belief. Are you familiar with such theory? I always thought it interesting that seemingly every known human culture has developed a form of spiritual belief, often in complete isolation. I assume the religious have formed a fairly predictable reason for this, but is it equally valid that it is explainable through our understanding of psychology and human behavior?
I googled origins of faith and found amongst a mountain of stuff this, which I thought interesting as it suggests that some higher form non humans could have the capacity for developing something like religious belief. It sounds like it jives with the Freuds theory of the components that make up human personality, including the parental influence of super ego.
Morality and group living
Main articles: Evolution of morality and Morality#Evolutionary_perspectives
Dr. Frans de Waal and Barbara King both view human morality as having grown out of primate sociality. Though morality awareness may be a unique human trait, many social animals, such as primates, dolphins and whales, have been known to exhibit pre-moral sentiments. According to Michael Shermer, the following characteristics are shared by humans and other social animals, particularly the great apes:
"attachment and bonding, cooperation and mutual aid, sympathy and empathy, direct and indirect reciprocity, altruism and reciprocal altruism, conflict resolution and peacemaking, deception and deception detection, community concern and caring about what others think about you, and awareness of and response to the social rules of the group".[13]
De Waal contends that all social animals have had to restrain or alter their behavior for group living to be worthwhile. Pre-moral sentiments evolved in primate societies as a method of restraining individual selfishness and building more cooperative groups. For any social species, the benefits of being part of an altruistic group should outweigh the benefits of individualism. For example, lack of group cohesion could make individuals more vulnerable to attack from outsiders. Being part of a group may also improve the chances of finding food. This is evident among animals that hunt in packs to take down large or dangerous prey.
All social animals have hierarchical societies in which each member knows its own place. Social order is maintained by certain rules of expected behavior and dominant group members enforce order through punishment. However, higher order primates also have a sense of reciprocity and fairness. Chimpanzees remember who did them favors and who did them wrong. For example, chimpanzees are more likely to share food with individuals who have previously groomed them.[14]
Chimpanzees live in fission-fusion groups that average 50 individuals. It is likely that early ancestors of humans lived in groups of similar size. Based on the size of extant hunter-gatherer societies, recent Paleolithic hominids lived in bands of a few hundred individuals. As community size increased over the course of human evolution, greater enforcement to achieve group cohesion would have been required. Morality may have evolved in these bands of 100 to 200 people as a means of social control, conflict resolution and group solidarity. According to Dr. de Waal, human morality has two extra levels of sophistication that are not found in primate societies. Humans enforce their society’s moral codes much more rigorously with rewards, punishments and reputation building. Humans also apply a degree of judgment and reason not otherwise seen in the animal kingdom.
Psychologist Matt J. Rossano argues that religion emerged after morality and built upon morality by expanding the social scrutiny of individual behavior to include supernatural agents. By including ever-watchful ancestors, spirits and gods in the social realm, humans discovered an effective strategy for restraining selfishness and building more cooperative groups.[15] The adaptive value of religion would have enhanced group survival.[16] [17] Rossano is referring here to collective religious belief and the social sanction that institutionalized morality. Individual religious belief is initially epistemological, not ethical, in nature.
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WBraun
climber
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But wait, you're one of the most fundamentalist folks on ST.
By saying that you proved what we knew all along.
You know absolutely nothing about the subject matter .....
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MH2
climber
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Wow. The Frank Wilczek talk is great.
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WBraun
climber
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Human beings are not animals.
It's when they fall down to animal consciousness in human bodies do they become moralists to having grown out of primate sociality.
A human being transcends the primate animal morality.
If not, then no human being anymore, just animal.
The whole world is becoming animal now .....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Some controversies in reincarnation:
1. Are humans created human or have they worked their way up from animal forms?
2. Once human can regression to an animal form occur?
3. Have some humans lived on other planets in the past?
4. Do some humans go to other lives on other planets after this one?
5. Do humans spend time in a non physical dimension between bodies?
6. Can some humans remember past lifes. If not, why not?
7. Can some humans choose their next life? If yes, then how?
8. What exactly reincarnates, the individual personality or something more amorphous with karma attached?
9. If one is tired of reincarnating, how does one stop the process?
10. Can individuals help other individuals in the process of reincarnating or stopping reincarnation?
11. Is reincarnation a totally impersonal force or can appeals to deities help?
12. How much are we prisoners/victims of our past lives, and how much free will do we have to overcome the effects of our past lives?
Differential Social Effects:
Some Advantages of Reincarnation
1. Each individual gets many chances instead of just one.
2. Ensures social justice eventually.
3. Encourages good behavior on the part of the unfortunate so they can look forward to a better future.
4. Because everyone has multiple chances, everyone can go at their own pace.
5. Because there is no rush, nobody needs to convert or force anybody to do anything.
6. Tolerance and non judgementalism tend to characterize reincarnation believing societies.
7. Societies that believe good works improve one’s future reincarnation are charitable and pleasant to live in.
8. If one accepts that one’s current life is a result of the past, it is easier to forgive those who have wronged us because we accept responsibility for our own situation.
9. if we accept responsibility for our position in life, we can then focus on being the best at whatever that position is rather than endlessly striving for something else.
Some Disadvantages of Reincarnation
1. The possibility of many lifetimes encourages some people to be lazy about their spiritual life and life in general.
2. The idea that one’s present good fortune was earned in a past life leads some people to be callous toward the suffering of others.
3. The idea that the present life reflects the past, can justify ill treatment of the less fortunate.
4. The less fortunate can have a degraded, apathetic and pessimistic view of themselves based on this doctrine as well.
5. Over emphasis on past lives can cause some people to lose focus on this one and wander in fantasy.
6. People in favorable life situations in particular, can use reincarnation as a justification for their superior social and economic positions.
I do not know point for point how scientology's belief system stacks up against traditional Hindu or Buddhist beliefs on the subject (which are different from each other) and I'm not spending my time checking it out because of their differential effects on society.
As far as social effects are concerned, some of the reasons I find scientology lacking compared to traditional reincarnation religions, is the issue of tolerance and non judgmentalism. Even though they believe in reincarnation, the scientologists are not tolerant or non judgemental. They also are very tied to authoritarianism. Therefore even if their beliefs were the same, I would not be attracted to them because of the differential social effects.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Werner-
My favorite explanation for the current low level of consciousness of the human race is that we are becoming more animalistic as we extinct more and more species and those souls have to go somewhere. Thus we have more and more animals inhabiting human bodies!
Of course this idea could also be seen as a great insult to animals, given how low the human race has sunk.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Werner: A human being transcends the primate animal morality.
Funny, some of us have been waiting for humans to transcend to the level of primate animal morality.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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How do you square reincarnation with human population growth?
Do viruses and bacteria reincarnate?
At what point up the hierarchy of life does reincarnation kick in?
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WBraun
climber
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Human being and animal are two different.
You Google too much and observe too little.
Where you ever see a dog write a book for one simple example.
Bruce try and quiet your mind a little ......
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dolphins and whales have had brains bigger than ours for millions of years longer. They may not write books, but they definitely tell tales.
Gotta love these humans aren't animals folks. But of course you aren't a fundamentalist. Just where on dogmatic spectrum does one avoid the label?
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Bruce Kay
Gym climber
BC
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Where you ever see a dog write a book for one simple example.
Jan - are you following this? Wasn't it you who suggested I should be lauding werner for his dogged pursuit of the truth?
Well you got me there Werner. We know now at least that Fido did not in fact write the bible.
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WBraun
climber
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Anyone who accepts the body as the "self" is an animal .......
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Do viruses and bacteria reincarnate?
At what point up the hierarchy of life does reincarnation kick in?
Supposedly only sentient beings reincarnate, but defining that is tricky.
As for bacteria and viruses, I used to chuckle in Kathmandu at my Sherpa friends who wouldn't kill a bug but boiled to death multitudes of bacteria and viruses. Their philosophy was that if they didn't see it, they didn't worry about it.
This usually provoked a discussion about invisible germs versus invisible gods and ghosts. Touche.
Every good belief system has its logical limits.
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Dr. F.
Big Wall climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2013 - 07:39am PT
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Anyone who accepts the body as the "self" is an animal .......
Once again, Werner claims, only he knows how the universe works
I call my body "self", I am a animal??
What the hell does that mean, I guess it's the same as where you point when you say "me"
complete lunacy
Human being and animal are two different.
I have been arguing this debate since I was 14
They are the same
We are animal.... the end
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Dr. F.
Big Wall climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2013 - 07:52am PT
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Werner,
Are there a finite number of souls? The population has exploded over the last 200 years.
M
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WBraun
climber
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The soul is not material.
There are infinite number of souls.
Bacteria, virus are all are individual souls within their respective bodies.
The soul can transmigrate from body to different body after death according to it's consciousness.
The lower species move up.
Once human form is reached one can go higher or fall back down into the lower species according to ones develop consciousness in this life.
Dr F .... has a complete poor fund of knowledge of the soul and consciousness.
Thus Dr F remains as an animal in a human body.
Thus he remains as the "Terrible Scientist" .......
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