Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 9, 2013 - 08:41pm PT
Ward,

it seems to me you are presenting a False Equivalence in your effort to lend support to your contention that equal proof is required to both believe and not belief in a god

for example, I have been an atheist since I could first reason, around age 5

when my parents and my catholic nun teachers laid out their notion of a god who was capable of absolutely incredible things, well I simply chose to find such ideas absurd

simple, no "proof" of my non belief was requred

however, extraordinary proof IS required for ME to buy the entire concept of this imaginary friend in the sky who both does not interfere but yet does in human life, makes ridiculous demands of his followers. and requires a simplistic, quite childish, non questioning zero proof basis as qualifiers for the acceptance of "belief"

no, the entire concept is as stunningly unnecessary and clearly to me human invented now as it was at age 5
MH2

climber
Mar 9, 2013 - 08:48pm PT
2% !!!! That is far from meager considering the implications.


People should be free to believe whatever they find worthy of belief.


Although the 50/50 probability can be a starting point for a proposition with no evidence for or against, it is my understanding that it doesn't hold up well beyond that. You would then need to assign 50% chance to the next attribute of God beyond mere existence that you believe in without having solid evidence for or against and by time we have explored your beliefs about God thoroughly we may find that the chance of your belief being true is far below 2%. But not zero.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 9, 2013 - 08:54pm PT
With there being no god everything makes perfect sense. The benign indifference of the universe makes sense, life or no life makes sense.
Jingy
Yes..
It only makes perfect sense once you realize God does not exist

Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Mar 9, 2013 - 08:58pm PT
it seems to me you are presenting a False Equivalence in your effort to lend support to your contention that equal proof is required to both believe and not belief in a god

There is no false equivalence at work here. I will state once more: the assertion that God does not exist is logically, empirically, and scientifically on the same footing as the assertion that God does exist.
If you believe that God does not exist it is an article of faith quite independent of any objectively determined fact.

however, extraordinary proof IS required for ME to buy the entire concept of this imaginary friend in the sky who both does not interfere but yet does in human life, makes ridiculous demands of his followers. and requires a simplistic, quite childish, non questioning zero proof basis as qualifiers for the acceptance of "belief"

I see in this comment a specific psychological reaction to a particular set of religious beliefs.
I do not take your characterization , as expressed

imaginary friend in the sky who both does not interfere but yet does in human life, makes ridiculous demands of his followers. and requires a simplistic, quite childish, non questioning zero proof basis as qualifiers for the acceptance of "belief

as being centrally definitive of the broadest definition of a belief in God or the supernatural.
I see it as a psychologically conditioned reaction to an oppressive cultural regime in your own personal life.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 9, 2013 - 09:03pm PT
Wrong
You have to invent something called God to prove he exists or not

No God is the default, it doesn't take anything more than we have now

For there to be a god, you have to invent the idea of god, then prove he exists

For the idea of God to valid, you must define God, and explain how God works, what he does, where he lives,

but you have none of this, just an idea that a God may exist
You can't proceed any farther than an idea of God, there is nothing further to investigate
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 9, 2013 - 09:05pm PT
Oh ye of little faith ...

How to convince the strongest Atheist skeptic of the existence of G-d. A visual exercise of beauty ...


Do you honestly think that all these beautiful women are just some cosmic random circumstance event of a godless Darwinian "survival of the fittest" chance accident of evolution? Get real.


These women are eternal souls whether they believe in G-d or not. And so are you. You are an eternal soul. Every knee will bow and confess that Yeshua HaMashiach is Adonai, creator of all creation, and the savior of all mankind.

But you want to be on the side of the sheep, and not the goats, when we all stand together to knee bow and confess before our creator.


The most beautiful women in the World:
http://www.google.com/search?q=the+most+beautiful+woman+in+the+world&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=bhA8UdDeNeTm2QWlxIHIAw&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1273&bih=676





Does God exist? Here are six straight-forward reasons to believe that God is really there.
http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html




Simple really.





"G-d doesn't exist"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_absence

You can't prove a negative.
MH2

climber
Mar 9, 2013 - 09:09pm PT
Logic, empiricism, and science are not strong grounds from which to question atheism. Assuming that God does not exist is a simple position. It has the great advantage of parsimony. It does not require mystical texts or prophets. There are much better defenses of religion than logic, empiricism, and science.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Mar 9, 2013 - 09:10pm PT
For there to be a god, you have to invent the idea of god, then prove he exists

If God does not exist then you should have no problem whatsoever in presenting a peer-reviewed set of experimental, empirical proofs proving just that.
Then you will be relieved of the burdensome task of making the above comments ad infinitum.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Logic, empiricism, and science are not strong grounds from which to question atheism. Assuming that God does not exist is a simple position. It has the great advantage of parsimony. It does not require mystical texts or prophets. There are much better defenses of religion than logic, empiricism, and science.

I take it that most card-carrying atheists should then resign themselves to eschew logic , empiricism, and science on behalf of parsimonious assuming.
That's cool with me .
Parsimony= prophets.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 9, 2013 - 09:11pm PT
Hey Klimmer
I wanted to ask you what you think of all the right wing wackos in a buying frenzy of guns and ammunition just in case they need to take on the tyrannical Gov.

Do you think it will end well?


We have to prove God doesn't exist???

WTF??
There is nothing to prove, God has to be proven to exist, you can't prove something that doesn't exist doesn't exist

If you told me what God does, I can prove he didn't do it
I will be able to give a valid scientific explanation of what happened without the intervention of God
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Mar 9, 2013 - 09:26pm PT
We have to prove God doesn't exist???

Or give up the requirement that the opposite must be proven.

I will be able to give a valid scientific explanation of what happened without the intervention of God

Which is not identical to proving that God does not exist.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Mar 9, 2013 - 09:28pm PT
I treat my dog better than klimmer's imaginary god treats mankind.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 9, 2013 - 09:36pm PT
Hey Klimmer
I wanted to ask you what you think of all the right wing wackos in a buying frenzy of guns and ammunition just in case they need to take on the tyrannical Gov.

Do you think it will end well?

We have to prove God doesn't exist???

WTF??
There is nothing to prove, God has to be proven to exist, you can't prove something that doesn't exist doesn't exist
If you told me what God does, I can prove he didn't do it
I will be able to give a valid scientific explanation of what happened without the intervention of God



I don't agree with it. Yeshua said if you live by the sword you will die by the sword.

However, what did our founding fathers say in our Declaration of Independence? What is our Constitution and Bill of Rights founded on? Freedom was defended before, perhaps it has to be defended again.

I don't like oppression. Look what we recently did to the Japanese US citizens not so long ago. Have you had the chance to go through Manzanar and see the latest museum displays there? Sobering.



"G-d does not exist."

You can't prove a negative.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_absence



Over the years I have given many miraculous examples of physical evidence that validate G-d's existence, and that The Word of G-d is true and historically accurate, and physical evidence that validates G-d's omniscience such as fulfilled prophecy. All the evidence is really overwhelming. You simply just ignore it and pretend it didn't happen.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 9, 2013 - 09:39pm PT
I treat my dog better than god treats mankind.


Malemute,


So how do you treat G-d?
MH2

climber
Mar 9, 2013 - 10:24pm PT
There are card-carrying atheists? Now I am having trouble believing Ward Trotter.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Mar 9, 2013 - 10:34pm PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Ignatius_Loyola

http://www.remnantofgod.org/blackpope.htm

Credit: TomCochrane
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Mar 9, 2013 - 11:27pm PT
Thanks Base for the answer,such as it was. Just returned from a trip to Elko, sort of a R.E. scouting deal. I had heard that Noble had amassed 350k of lease acreage out that way and was threatening to launch an ambitious exploration that includes horizontal drilling and fracking. I guess the thinking is that there is lighter stuff out there but much as in the Bakken it takes modern techniques to unlock. Lots of climbable limestone up and down the eastern portion of the state, walls up to 1500', some of the shorter stuff like Pequop easily accessible but the bigger stuff often pretty remote.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Mar 10, 2013 - 07:51am PT

Anthropomorphism = imagining a natural phenomenon as if it were a human being; attributing human traits to things that are not human.

By far the most rapid brain development occurred after humans began to live in large communities, and the most important survival skill turned out to be the ability to predict the behavior of other humans. So I'm wondering if it became so deeply ingrained, as a way of thinking, that we're wired to analyze everything as if it's a person with behaviors and motives. Maybe far fetched, but anthropomorphism is still a powerful force. Just look at the news. There is always a bad guy to be blamed for everything. Politicians are experts at finger pointing. Whatever frustrations people have about the government can be blamed on the opposition party's politicians. More serious examples include Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden, Mummar Ghadafi, Bashar al Asad, and so on, all held up as personifications of evil. Millions of people dead in endless crusades to get the bad guy. It's a very primitive thinking mode but deeply ingrained in our brains.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Mar 10, 2013 - 10:07am PT
Millions of people dead in endless crusades to get the bad guy. It's a very primitive thinking mode but deeply ingrained in our brains.

 I tend to think of myself as beyond this primitive thinking…. and that is what leads to my atheism.

good call on the anthropomorphism definition…. putting it out there plainly like that is something i'd never considered.
WBraun

climber
Mar 10, 2013 - 10:11am PT
Hey Jingy

You can't invent something that's already there.

God existed before the the material creation.

All the evidence is there by studying yourself and the material energies.

The material energies are his inferior energies.

But have at with all your crazy mental speculations although you'll deluded yourself so badly you'll say I'm the that is really deluded.

Your base knowledge is only on sectarian religion, not scientific knowledge.

None of which will help you at all expect to further delude yourselves .....
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Mar 10, 2013 - 10:53am PT
Hey Jingy

 Hey, Werner Von-Trollstein


You can't invent something that's already there.

 That just happens to be immeasurable, imperceptible, illogical and totally imaginary by both good folks… like you and really, really bad folks…. like me.


But have at with all your crazy mental speculations.

 Strange… this just happens to be my understanding of the religious.


None of which will help you at all expect to further delude yourself .....

 … and you continue to think yourself righteous and holy and generally better than others who may hold a different view than your own.

Remember, you called me here…. you must somehow feel that my messages resinate or else you see me as someone who can be converted? Or else, maybe its just a pure hate you have for my words, maybe because you know its closer to the truth than you like to admit.

It's ok to admit when you are wrong about something. It's why I can say I may be wrong about all my assertions about the Braun.

When will you admit your wrong about anything?



 To be sure, the bible says that the believers will be held responsible for not convincing the non-believers… consider yourself told
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