Politics, God and Religion vs. Science

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MH2

climber
Apr 19, 2013 - 10:00pm PT
Call up a memory. What is it? What's it made of? Where does it reside? Where did it come from, and where did it go when it was no longer around?


Those sounded like questions about the physical nature of memory, not memory as we experience it. I'll try again.

I'll call up a memory. Yesterday I had baked potato for supper. It is off-white and brown with skin and smells of pepper, butter, lemon, salt, and potato. It tastes salty and lemony. It is made of potato, etc. It resides in my memory, it came from my memory, and - let me check - yes, it went back to my memory when it was no longer around.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 19, 2013 - 10:29pm PT
I'll call up a memory. Yesterday I had baked potato for supper. It is off-white and brown with skin and smells of pepper, butter, lemon, salt, and potato. It tastes salty and lemony. It is made of potato, etc. It resides in my memory, it came from my memory, and - let me check - yes, it went back to my memory when it was no longer around.

OK, so if somebody says "yesterday" or "potato"; is your first inspiration of that memory brought on by the technical aspects of that potato; or is the memory brought on from your emotional response from making and tasting that said potato?



Edit: If a touron asked me if I climbed, instantly my conscious would rise with a plathora of
emotions, Way before my brain would call out a technical "YES"
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Apr 19, 2013 - 10:47pm PT
You don't think, "uh, there goes another electrical impulse" when you think about your mother, do you?

Me, on the other hand . . . I might think of my mother differently when a memory comes up. When I actually see my mother, I might see her as a mirage. A wonderfully warm mirage. A mirage I love so very dearly. A very wise mirage.



EDIT: And there is a great example of the differences in views.
MH2

climber
Apr 19, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
You are comparing your mother to my baked potatoes?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 19, 2013 - 11:44pm PT

I might think of my mother differently when a memory comes up. When I actually see my mother, I might see her as a mirage. A wonderfully warm mirage. A mirage I love so very dearly. A very wise mirage.

This is what I meant by, " our emotions pinpoint our experiences on a timeline".

When we are asked about a potato, doesnt our first reaction come from wether we Love them or Hate them?


Exit: I'm going to go make some frenchfries.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 20, 2013 - 10:44am PT
[url=[/url" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://s616.photobucket.com/user/DoctorF-/media/IMG_4605.jpg.html][/url]

I'm trying to use photobucket
for better photo quality, but I'm doing something wrong
any tips?
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 20, 2013 - 11:21am PT
I think that refuting all science is silly. The Universe is far larger than just us. Every time we look some place we find incredibly beautiful things.

If you learn to turn your mind inward, you will miss it. This of course begs the question of, "If you don't turn your mind inward, you will miss it."

For me, I am happy to learn or read of, new discoveries. I am also very curious about what Mike is talking about. Turning your mind inward to experience the mind.

I do not in any way refute this picture. Many of you are familiar with the Hubble Deep and Ultra Deep field pictures.

They looked at a tiny spot in the sky where nothing had been observed with smaller telescopes. Since it was so faint, they continuously observed this spot for ten consecutive days. From Wiki it is a spot the size of a tennis ball at 100 yards.

The wiki page is freaking amazing. Read this page if you are interested in the Universe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble_Deep_Field

So is this real or not?

This is what happens when you just look.
This is what happens when you just look.
Credit: BASE104
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 20, 2013 - 11:42am PT
Geometry also has a lot of cool things.

I showed my son how to make a Mobius Strip when he was about five years old. He then showed all of his teachers. That excited him. Just take a strip of paper, turn one end over 180 degrees and tape the ends together. Then follow your finger around the surface and you will realize that the object has only one surface. Very simple and very cool.

Following that is a Klein Bottle. Try this stuff in Euclidian Space and see where you go. While you are at it, think about the sheer thought that it took to come up with this stuff. These manifolds are all equations.

Jump in here JStan and Gill. It has been 25 years since I looked at this. If I ever looked at this stuff...We have come a long way since the stone age.

Mobius strip
Mobius strip
Credit: BASE104

Klein Bottle
Klein Bottle
Credit: BASE104

WBraun

climber
Apr 20, 2013 - 11:55am PT
Base104 -- "I think that refuting all science is silly."

This is exactly what modern science does all the time in the form scientism.

Scientism is a term used, usually pejoratively, to refer to belief in the universal applicability of the scientific method and approach,
and the view that empirical science constitutes the most authoritative worldview or most valuable part of human learning to the exclusion of other viewpoints.

WBraun

climber
Apr 20, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
when astronomers thought that the Milky Way was all there was

No that was "Modern astronomers"

Hubble is finding what was always known before Modern astronomy.

locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Apr 20, 2013 - 01:09pm PT


" I might think of my mother differently when a mammary comes up."...




WBraun

climber
Apr 20, 2013 - 01:12pm PT
Using an disingenuous scientific method is unworthy of you .....
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Apr 20, 2013 - 01:44pm PT
The deep objective, the deep subjective. Both are very much apart of our perceived existence. And also the sense that this is only a practical deconstruction of whatever the "real" thing is, which tends to escape our attempts of explanation. Though that escape path gets narrower and narrower, it is never going to be cut off.


Good post, IMO. I have been driving a similar angle for awhile here - that the "objective" is in fact a kind of Hilbert Space, workable metaphor for organizing the "real," undifferentiated flux, for human consumption and manipulation. The idea that a real, objective material world exists out there that is self-same, even in it's constant morphing, is in fact a anthropomorphic concept start to finish. Remove the observer from the stage play and there goes all models and maps for which the brain organized "reality" for its own purposes and physical survival. The reason why a distinct threshold between objective and subjective will never be found is that there isn't one. It's seamless, contained in the one, like heads and tails on a penny.

JL
MH2

climber
Apr 20, 2013 - 02:56pm PT
Admonishment to inappropriate application of science from 400 years ago:


[



MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Apr 20, 2013 - 03:27pm PT
Ed, you continue to surprise me. Cheers.

Base, I don't mean to refute science. I can't refute anything, and I can't prove anything.

I honestly appreciate what other people have to say about this "thing" or that "thing" (e.g., neurons, galaxies, electrons, fMRI readings, etc.). I appreciate people's logic, their carefulness, their systematic approaches, and their orientations to data.

However, my training in more soft sciences (sociology, psychology, cognitive science, linguistics, anthropology, philosophy of science) suggests to me that any strict definitiveness of "things" is highly questionable. Tom's post above provides wonderful examples of why we could be reasonably skeptical that things exist AS WE THINK they do (all the more so for things like thoughts, concepts, minds, identities that we believe we are internally aware of, MH2).

One of my first posts here on this thread claimed "things" were socially constructed. But that does not mean there is no reality. There must be a reality because of the cogito ergo sum. I'm only suggesting that there are reasons to think IT is not exactly what we think IT is. If IT is not as we think IT is, then that might call for an unbelievably different paradigm than the one we've been using for the last 2 thousand years. (I mean is it possible to get outside of one's paradigm?)

(Anyone ever read Edwin Abbott's 1880 novel, "Flatland?")

Hence, I am skeptical. I am skeptical of anything I don't have direct experience of. Direct experience is my sure starting place. All I have right now and ever is the direct experience of my consciousness, and I find it's pretty darned confounding when I am aware of it without social constructions.

Why, I'm not even sure I'm "me."
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Apr 20, 2013 - 03:55pm PT
Theramin Trees..

Reviewed a couple of the earlier videos. Thought they were more then just quick videos to dismiss.

Part One:



Part Two:
MH2

climber
Apr 20, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
Why, I'm not even sure I'm "me."

This is where we help each other, Mike. What would you have to go on in defining yourself if all there was was you? Our interactions with the world around us tell us who we are.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Apr 20, 2013 - 04:40pm PT
The reason why a distinct threshold between objective and subjective will never be found is that there isn't one. It's seamless, contained in the one, like heads and tails on a penny

Yes. We have trouble recognizing the intermediate or combined state because of the curse of the Law of the Excluded Middle (LEM). Physicists have already learned to deal with this and also overcome the other impediment: Cause & Effect.

Most mathematical arguments adhere to LEM, considering valid those indirect proofs that if not-A is false then A is true. Constructivists, however, try to avoid such arguments and give direct, constructive proofs.

What is the metaphor from eastern religions about the warrior and his adversary constituting a unified whole? One cannot exist without the other. However, that poses the ongoing question of whether the universe can exist without us. I rather think it can.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 20, 2013 - 05:11pm PT
Mr. Gill,

Carl Sagan, in his baloney detection kit, mentions the excluded middle as a part of a "False Dichotomy."

A good example would go...you are either with the commies or you are with us."

Of course there is a spectrum of belief in that statement.

All too often people use the excluded middle in arguments, usually political ones. You can call it a false dichotomy if you recognize it and want to sound fancy.
MH2

climber
Apr 20, 2013 - 05:34pm PT
Is it possible to get outside of one's paradigm?

It may be possible. It may be possible to travel through whole worlds of different paradigms.

Flatland was a math world. The Planiverse by A.K. Dewdney considers 2-dimensional physics.




And has intelligent biological life.

Yendred




The protagonist is curious about a culture on his world which may have knowledge beyond physics and biology. He goes to meet Drabk.




After Yendred has met Drabk he enters a shrine and starts his journey.




Yendred decides to continue his journey but must leave behind his friends.



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